348 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Which is still entirely possible despite it being a fraction of their original size, especially with how big the Inquisition is at that point. I didn't really see it as a "game play" aspect anyway, it seemed mostly atmospheric and gave us a good idea of how terrifying the Red Templars are in combat. 

 With the Inquisition's forces being so big, it would be easy for a small force to get swallowed up by them unless Inquisition soldiers filled up their ranks.  The fact that the saved Templars are mentioned as a strong force on their own says a lot about their numbers.  Especially compared to not saving them, which results in no mention of them at all as the few Templars that exist are simply Inquisition soldiers.

 

Some people say Champions of the Just is better, its an opinion. But the fact that Red Templars are far better enemies that Venatori is simply a fact.

 

No it isn't, it's just an opinion too.  I found Samson to be lackluster overall compared to Calpernia.  And the general Red Templars and Venatori were just fodder npcs that were tiresome to fight after a while.

 

And you get to kill Fiona and have sexy Ser Barris working for you.  You can't ask for a better outcome.

[In Exile]

With the Inquisition's forces being so big, it would be easy for a small force to get swallowed up by them unless Inquisition soldiers filled up their ranks. The fact that the saved Templars are mentioned as a strong force on their own says a lot about their numbers. Especially compared to not saving them, which results in no mention of them at all as the few Templars that exist are simply Inquisition soldiers.

No it isn't, it's just an opinion too. I found Samson to be lackluster overall compared to Calpernia. And the general Red Templars and Venatori were just fodder npcs that were tiresome to fight after a while.

And you get to kill Fiona and have sexy Ser Barris working for you. You can't ask for a better outcome.

I wouldn't say the red templars are better enemies so much as I think they make for a better tone. With what you see in the bad future - a world overrun by red lyrium - it makes Corypheus seem more threatening (because it looks like he will absolutely win if you don't interfere). Whereas with Therinfall his mooks aren't terrifying (they're just mages) and you don't really come back to Haven harrowed by the experience in the same way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Probably a fraction of their original host. 90% of the Templars who initially hunker down in the main hall are slaughtered immediately after you depart. 

 

God, I remember my first time playing COTJ. I went back into the Templar hall as soon as I stepped out- I'd forgotten to equip a new item- and suddenly everyone was dead.

 

I was like, 'Is this a Cerberus project or something?'
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Some people say Champions of the Just is better, its an opinion. But the fact that Red Templars are far better enemies that Venatori is simply a fact.

Plus narritavely it makes sense for the Red Templars to be as numerous as they are if you side with the mages. At least the Venatori being numerous makes sense even if you side with the mages since most of them are from Tevinter while it makes little sense for the Red Templars to be as numerous as they are after COTJ since the majority of templars were saved. Why are Red Templars so big if you killed lots of them at Therinfal and prevented them from corrupting the Templars?

 

Heck, the fact that the first half of What Pride had wrought has you fighting Red Templars regardless of which side you picked helps prove my point that siding with the mages makes more narrative sense.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wouldn't say the red templars are better enemies so much as I think they make for a better tone. With what you see in the bad future - a world overrun by red lyrium - it makes Corypheus seem more threatening (because it looks like he will absolutely win if you don't interfere). Whereas with Therinfall his mooks aren't terrifying (they're just mages) and you don't really come back to Haven harrowed by the experience in the same way.

 

My view is that hushed whispers really sells the stake of the threat- but it's CotJ that carries the tone better after the Breach is closed.

 

Hushed Whispers has a really strong intro, don't get me wrong- it's got a compelling hook about why it's important, even more important, than the Templars. And time magic definitely sells the importance of closing the breach- how the world is breaking apart, demons everywhere, and people we know (and maybe even like) will suffer for it.

 

But after the Breach is closed... the mages are pretty meh, all things considered. Fiona isn't a participant, or a significant contributer, and the mages don't really distinguish themselves: most of their war table missions involve bringing in strays and mages who went to ground, which is nice and all but really doesn't have much on stopping demonic attacks on major cities.

 

In addition, the Red Templars are... well, it's a case of DAI getting confused about what sort of enemy we're facing. Is Corypheus an army, or a conspiracy? Red Templars are the former, but Corypheus's plot as a whole is the later- and, yeah, I like Empress De Lions as much as the next person for a sense of a major battle against Corypheus, but that's about it. Thematically, the Red Templars are a wash: they're the worst sort of brainwashed foes, who have no ideology or rational for their actions because they're just mind-controlled slaves. Sampson has a pretty weak character arc about how they're fighting the Chantry that used and disregarded them- but he's one-off, poorly supported, and his reason for following Corypheus amounts to spit. His subordinates don't share his feelings on account of being, well, mind-controlled slaves. It's even worse than Cerberus in ME3: Cerberus could claim it was going for a long-shot gambit of Human dominance, but the Red Templars have nothing in common with the actual Templars other than armor. There's no anti-magic/anti-mage vendetta, not even a real idea of if the Red Templars are capable of anti-magic, and they're serving mage supremacists because... well, no reason than addiction and enslavement.

 

It's a weak antagonist (Samson), and a underwhelming ally (Fiona) for Hushed Whispers.

 

 

On the other hand, Champions of the just really picks up with the merits of actually recruiting the group. Unlike the mages, who are passive to their own recruitment and within their own mission, the Templars are enthusiastic- they fight with you, they'll fight for you, and they directly admit to their own failings in a way Fiona refuses to. Almost immediately they are a credible boon to the Inquisition- manpower when we're still strong, public support, and their own support networks that the mages do not have. We're told regardless that the Templars the Inquisition has gathered up are the core of our forces, and damn if it doesn't make more sense whether you ally or conscript them. Plus, in their war table missions they go out and do the things the Inquisition stands for- restoring order, fighting demons, managing the fearful masses in the pursuit of truth. Baras the Badass becoming the head of the Templars is a high-point for later in the game, an excellent goalpost for the Inquisition's rising strength- and one with no Mage equivalent.

 

No only is the quality of your ally better, but the quality of your rival antagonist is improved. Calpernia and a cult of mage supremacists makes sense as an ally and tool for Corypheus. The Venatori not only have the ideological/thematic parallels with Corypheus- mage supremacists, Tevinter- but they operate like Corypheus as well- conspiratorial, secretive. Calpernia is a much better rival to Leliana than Samson is to Cullen, and the Inquisition-Venatori matchup is much better in terms if the premise of the Inqusition- to inquire, to investigate, to ferret out- than the conventional battle force that was the Red Templars. Our allies work better for it as well: we have Templars, trained and experienced in hunting maleficar, and our primary enemies are maleficar. Whereas in Husted Whispers, we take a mage force that was soundly beaten by the Templars, and... well, we don't really make exceptional use of them against the Red Templars.

 

Calpernia and Venatori? Better enemies. Evil- but thinking evil.

 

Or so my thoughts go.

[Hellion Rex]

My view is that hushed whispers really sells the stake of the threat- but it's CotJ that carries the tone better after the Breach is closed.

 

Hushed Whispers has a really strong intro, don't get me wrong- it's got a compelling hook about why it's important, even more important, than the Templars. And time magic definitely sells the importance of closing the breach- how the world is breaking apart, demons everywhere, and people we know (and maybe even like) will suffer for it.

 

But after the Breach is closed... the mages are pretty meh, all things considered. Fiona isn't a participant, or a significant contributer, and the mages don't really distinguish themselves: most of their war table missions involve bringing in strays and mages who went to ground, which is nice and all but really doesn't have much on stopping demonic attacks on major cities.

 

In addition, the Red Templars are... well, it's a case of DAI getting confused about what sort of enemy we're facing. Is Corypheus an army, or a conspiracy? Red Templars are the former, but Corypheus's plot as a whole is the later- and, yeah, I like Empress De Lions as much as the next person for a sense of a major battle against Corypheus, but that's about it. Thematically, the Red Templars are a wash: they're the worst sort of brainwashed foes, who have no ideology or rational for their actions because they're just mind-controlled slaves. Sampson has a pretty weak character arc about how they're fighting the Chantry that used and disregarded them- but he's one-off, poorly supported, and his reason for following Corypheus amounts to spit. His subordinates don't share his feelings on account of being, well, mind-controlled slaves. It's even worse than Cerberus in ME3: Cerberus could claim it was going for a long-shot gambit of Human dominance, but the Red Templars have nothing in common with the actual Templars other than armor. There's no anti-magic/anti-mage vendetta, not even a real idea of if the Red Templars are capable of anti-magic, and they're serving mage supremacists because... well, no reason than addiction and enslavement.

 

It's a weak antagonist (Samson), and a underwhelming ally (Fiona) for Hushed Whispers.

 

 

On the other hand, Champions of the just really picks up with the merits of actually recruiting the group. Unlike the mages, who are passive to their own recruitment and within their own mission, the Templars are enthusiastic- they fight with you, they'll fight for you, and they directly admit to their own failings in a way Fiona refuses to. Almost immediately they are a credible boon to the Inquisition- manpower when we're still strong, public support, and their own support networks that the mages do not have. We're told regardless that the Templars the Inquisition has gathered up are the core of our forces, and damn if it doesn't make more sense whether you ally or conscript them. Plus, in their war table missions they go out and do the things the Inquisition stands for- restoring order, fighting demons, managing the fearful masses in the pursuit of truth. Baras the Badass becoming the head of the Templars is a high-point for later in the game, an excellent goalpost for the Inquisition's rising strength- and one with no Mage equivalent.

 

No only is the quality of your ally better, but the quality of your rival antagonist is improved. Calpernia and a cult of mage supremacists makes sense as an ally and tool for Corypheus. The Venatori not only have the ideological/thematic parallels with Corypheus- mage supremacists, Tevinter- but they operate like Corypheus as well- conspiratorial, secretive. Calpernia is a much better rival to Leliana than Samson is to Cullen, and the Inquisition-Venatori matchup is much better in terms if the premise of the Inqusition- to inquire, to investigate, to ferret out- than the conventional battle force that was the Red Templars. Our allies work better for it as well: we have Templars, trained and experienced in hunting maleficar, and our primary enemies are maleficar. Whereas in Husted Whispers, we take a mage force that was soundly beaten by the Templars, and... well, we don't really make exceptional use of them against the Red Templars.

 

Calpernia and Venatori? Better enemies. Evil- but thinking evil.

 

Or so my thoughts go.

Amen!

[Lumix19]

My view is that hushed whispers really sells the stake of the threat- but it's CotJ that carries the tone better after the Breach is closed.

 

Hushed Whispers has a really strong intro, don't get me wrong- it's got a compelling hook about why it's important, even more important, than the Templars. And time magic definitely sells the importance of closing the breach- how the world is breaking apart, demons everywhere, and people we know (and maybe even like) will suffer for it.

 

But after the Breach is closed... the mages are pretty meh, all things considered. Fiona isn't a participant, or a significant contributer, and the mages don't really distinguish themselves: most of their war table missions involve bringing in strays and mages who went to ground, which is nice and all but really doesn't have much on stopping demonic attacks on major cities.

 

In addition, the Red Templars are... well, it's a case of DAI getting confused about what sort of enemy we're facing. Is Corypheus an army, or a conspiracy? Red Templars are the former, but Corypheus's plot as a whole is the later- and, yeah, I like Empress De Lions as much as the next person for a sense of a major battle against Corypheus, but that's about it. Thematically, the Red Templars are a wash: they're the worst sort of brainwashed foes, who have no ideology or rational for their actions because they're just mind-controlled slaves. Sampson has a pretty weak character arc about how they're fighting the Chantry that used and disregarded them- but he's one-off, poorly supported, and his reason for following Corypheus amounts to spit. His subordinates don't share his feelings on account of being, well, mind-controlled slaves. It's even worse than Cerberus in ME3: Cerberus could claim it was going for a long-shot gambit of Human dominance, but the Red Templars have nothing in common with the actual Templars other than armor. There's no anti-magic/anti-mage vendetta, not even a real idea of if the Red Templars are capable of anti-magic, and they're serving mage supremacists because... well, no reason than addiction and enslavement.

 

It's a weak antagonist (Samson), and a underwhelming ally (Fiona) for Hushed Whispers.

 

 

On the other hand, Champions of the just really picks up with the merits of actually recruiting the group. Unlike the mages, who are passive to their own recruitment and within their own mission, the Templars are enthusiastic- they fight with you, they'll fight for you, and they directly admit to their own failings in a way Fiona refuses to. Almost immediately they are a credible boon to the Inquisition- manpower when we're still strong, public support, and their own support networks that the mages do not have. We're told regardless that the Templars the Inquisition has gathered up are the core of our forces, and damn if it doesn't make more sense whether you ally or conscript them. Plus, in their war table missions they go out and do the things the Inquisition stands for- restoring order, fighting demons, managing the fearful masses in the pursuit of truth. Baras the Badass becoming the head of the Templars is a high-point for later in the game, an excellent goalpost for the Inquisition's rising strength- and one with no Mage equivalent.

 

No only is the quality of your ally better, but the quality of your rival antagonist is improved. Calpernia and a cult of mage supremacists makes sense as an ally and tool for Corypheus. The Venatori not only have the ideological/thematic parallels with Corypheus- mage supremacists, Tevinter- but they operate like Corypheus as well- conspiratorial, secretive. Calpernia is a much better rival to Leliana than Samson is to Cullen, and the Inquisition-Venatori matchup is much better in terms if the premise of the Inqusition- to inquire, to investigate, to ferret out- than the conventional battle force that was the Red Templars. Our allies work better for it as well: we have Templars, trained and experienced in hunting maleficar, and our primary enemies are maleficar. Whereas in Husted Whispers, we take a mage force that was soundly beaten by the Templars, and... well, we don't really make exceptional use of them against the Red Templars.

 

Calpernia and Venatori? Better enemies. Evil- but thinking evil.

 

Or so my thoughts go.

I agree on Calpernia, I think she was a strong villain. But I disagree about the Red Templars. In both scenarios the Venatori and the Red Templars are portrayed as an army supporting Corypheus' conspiracy. Both forces march on Haven, both march on the Temple of Mythal when Corypheus goes after the Well. But in the case of the Red Templars I think they make more sense as a major force rather than a vanguard. Corypheus uses them as his major force when he needs to crush his enemies whilst the Venatori get relegated to the conspiracy roles, infiltrating the Winter Palace, manipulating the Wardens etc. And it makes sense that he would still have the Venatori since he obviously brought some from Tevinter. Recruiting the Templars relegates the Red Templars to basically no role at all and I ended up wondering if it would make any difference to the story if you had just killed all the Red Templars at Therinfal and Corypheus had just done everything using his Venatori.

And I feel that the Red Templars had motivation, it just wasn't conveyed properly. Codex entries indicate that the Red Templars feel betrayed and used, and there's the sense of righteousness as well, but sadly Samson's story seems confused, Maddox humanizes Samson but it doesn't do a good job of explaining how Samson went from protector to worshiping Corypheus. Still the motivation is there: quotes like “Templars have always been used. How many were left to rot, like I was, after the Chantry burned away their minds?”, his own song expresses his rage at the world and the fate of the templars ties into his own experiences, he didn't want the Templars to be thrown away like he was and left scrounging for scraps, addicted to lyrium, he wanted to transform them so they could go out in a blaze of glory and he even remarks on their strength when you meet him at the Well, you can tell in his own twisted way that he's proud of what they've become.

The whole thing with lyrium addiction actually does make him a nice parallel with Cullen in my opinion. Especially if you help Cullen get over his lyrium addiction, there's the sense of hope that Cullen embodies, which pays off in Trespasser, contrasted with the sense of spite and despair that Samson feels.

I have to say that Paper & Steel does what the game sadly didn't, which was flesh out Samson's story a lot better. We see that people actually believed in him and that he blames the Chantry for preaching fear and not treating Mages and Templars as people.

So yeah the Red Templars aren't about anti-magic or anything like that, it's a sad story about how the Chantry "drove good knights into becoming monsters", treated mages like they weren't even people and that fear and ignorance came back to bite them. Because in the depths of despair these people turn to spite and lashed out at the world that abused them.

And the saddest thing of all is that some red templars obviously wanted to be free of the red lyrium but they were trapped.

[Lulupab]

No it isn't, it's just an opinion too.  I found Samson to be lackluster overall compared to Calpernia.  And the general Red Templars and Venatori were just fodder npcs that were tiresome to fight after a while.

 

And you get to kill Fiona and have sexy Ser Barris working for you.  You can't ask for a better outcome.

 

That's not what I meant by better enemies. The boss battle of In your heart shall burn is either Fiona or Knight Commander Denam in behemoth form. A Behemoth is better enemy than a milf.

 

Plus red Templars are better enemies to face than Venatori because they are more dangerous, never disobey, never falter etc.

[Hazegurl]

I agree on Calpernia, I think she was a strong villain. But I disagree about the Red Templars. In both scenarios the Venatori and the Red Templars are portrayed as an army supporting Corypheus' conspiracy. Both forces march on Haven, both march on the Temple of Mythal when Corypheus goes after the Well. But in the case of the Red Templars I think they make more sense as a major force rather than a vanguard. Corypheus uses them as his major force when he needs to crush his enemies whilst the Venatori get relegated to the conspiracy roles, infiltrating the Winter Palace, manipulating the Wardens etc. And it makes sense that he would still have the Venatori since he obviously brought some from Tevinter. Recruiting the Templars relegates the Red Templars to basically no role at all and I ended up wondering if it would make any difference to the story if you had just killed all the Red Templars at Therinfal and Corypheus had just done everything using his Venatori.

And I feel that the Red Templars had motivation, it just wasn't conveyed properly. Codex entries indicate that the Red Templars feel betrayed and used, and there's the sense of righteousness as well, but sadly Samson's story seems confused, Maddox humanizes Samson but it doesn't do a good job of explaining how Samson went from protector to worshiping Corypheus. Still the motivation is there: quotes like “Templars have always been used. How many were left to rot, like I was, after the Chantry burned away their minds?”, his own song expresses his rage at the world and the fate of the templars ties into his own experiences, he didn't want the Templars to be thrown away like he was and left scrounging for scraps, addicted to lyrium, he wanted to transform them so they could go out in a blaze of glory and he even remarks on their strength when you meet him at the Well, you can tell in his own twisted way that he's proud of what they've become.

The whole thing with lyrium addiction actually does make him a nice parallel with Cullen in my opinion. Especially if you help Cullen get over his lyrium addiction, there's the sense of hope that Cullen embodies, which pays off in Trespasser, contrasted with the sense of spite and despair that Samson feels.

I have to say that Paper & Steel does what the game sadly didn't, which was flesh out Samson's story a lot better. We see that people actually believed in him and that he blames the Chantry for preaching fear and not treating Mages and Templars as people.

So yeah the Red Templars aren't about anti-magic or anything like that, it's a sad story about how the Chantry "drove good knights into becoming monsters", treated mages like they weren't even people and that fear and ignorance came back to bite them. Because in the depths of despair these people turn to spite and lashed out at the world that abused them.

And the saddest thing of all is that some red templars obviously wanted to be free of the red lyrium but they were trapped.

Seems like everything said here makes me think the Red Templars are more lame than I thought. 

 

"We feel betrayed by the Chantry so we're going to take this mind controlling lyrium to make us enslaved to an ancient mage, that'll teach them for making us feel enslaved through addiction!"

 

IMO, I just see them as mind controlled corpses more than anything.  I think even Cole says they're dead. Of course not literally but essentially they are gone once they start taking the Red Lyrium.  As a matter of fact it's pointed out that Samson is the only one who has an intact mind because of his armor.  So whatever ideals they had, are gone once they take the lyrium. So you're never fighting a force who truly believes in Cory or supports him, but mindless minions which makes for a lame headcanon experience.

 

And considering the fact that most of the Red Templars were deceived into taking the Red Lyrium, I find it difficult to believe the tale of a bunch of knights who feel betrayed by the Chantry.  Most of them don't think that, which is why they were tricked and some killed at Therinfall. The entire point was to keep everyone from questioning what was going on.  And heck, most of the higher ranks took the Red Lyrium to test it out, to show the lower ranks that it was harmless because it wasn't uncommon for the Chantry to give them new types of Lyrium. 

 

If anything, it seems like Samson and a very small number of Templars felt betrayed by the Chantry; most likely a bunch of outcasts who were kicked from the order anyway and were pretty much irrelevant. Considering the fact that it takes an Envy demon to take over Lord Seeker Lucius just to get to the Templars pretty much narrows down that no one of importance felt that taking Red Lyrium was a brilliant idea regardless of how they felt about the Chantry. 

 

So it still goes back to the fact that the Venatori are the only group who supports Cory willingly or by being consciously enslaved (ie Fiona) while the Red Templars are just a bunch of mind controlled minions. So at least with the Venatori, Cory seems like a guy who can actually get a group fighting by his side and Calpernia actually has a group of her own people involved who believe in her, former slaves she freed.  It offers far more depth to Cory as a villain and in some cases it makes you wonder what Cory can do for the Imperium, cause it's not like that place doesn't need something drastic to happen to save it.

 

@Lulupab, Nothing beats killing Fiona.  Absolutely nothing.

 

And I'm not fond of fighting mindless enemies. Give me enemies with a purpose, not enemies who run into my fireballs cause their master didn't turn on a self preservation switch. Although, that's pretty much all the enemy npcs in DA. smh

[thesuperdarkone2]

Seems like everything said here makes me think the Red Templars are more lame than I thought.

"We feel betrayed by the Chantry so we're going to take this mind controlling lyrium to make us enslaved to an ancient mage, that'll teach them for making us feel enslaved through addiction!"

IMO, I just see them as mind controlled corpses more than anything. I think even Cole says they're dead. Of course not literally but essentially they are gone once they start taking the Red Lyrium. As a matter of fact it's pointed out that Samson is the only one who has an intact mind because of his armor. So whatever ideals they had, are gone once they take the lyrium. So you're never fighting a force who truly believes in Cory or supports him, but mindless minions which makes for a lame headcanon experience.

And considering the fact that most of the Red Templars were deceived into taking the Red Lyrium, I find it difficult to believe the tale of a bunch of knights who feel betrayed by the Chantry. Most of them don't think that, which is why they were tricked and some killed at Therinfall. The entire point was to keep everyone from questioning what was going on. And heck, most of the higher ranks took the Red Lyrium to test it out, to show the lower ranks that it was harmless because it wasn't uncommon for the Chantry to give them new types of Lyrium.

If anything, it seems like Samson and a very small number of Templars felt betrayed by the Chantry; most likely a bunch of outcasts who were kicked from the order anyway and were pretty much irrelevant. Considering the fact that it takes an Envy demon to take over Lord Seeker Lucius just to get to the Templars pretty much narrows down that no one of importance felt that taking Red Lyrium was a brilliant idea regardless of how they felt about the Chantry.

So it still goes back to the fact that the Venatori are the only group who supports Cory willingly or by being consciously enslaved (ie Fiona) while the Red Templars are just a bunch of mind controlled minions. So at least with the Venatori, Cory seems like a guy who can actually get a group fighting by his side and Calpernia actually has a group of her own people involved who believe in her, former slaves she freed. It offers far more depth to Cory as a villain and in some cases it makes you wonder what Cory can do for the Imperium, cause it's not like that place doesn't need something drastic to happen to save it.

@Lulupab, Nothing beats killing Fiona. Absolutely nothing.

And I'm not fond of fighting mindless enemies. Give me enemies with a purpose, not enemies who run into my fireballs cause their master didn't turn on a self preservation switch. Although, that's pretty much all the enemy npcs in DA. smh

Killing Fiona isn't a plus to me. Killing the Templar order however is something I love. Nothing beats being able to wipe out the Templars. Plus, killing the Templars would mean starting fresh without he corruption of the old order.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I find it much more appropriate and fitting to go with In Hushed Whispers. For one thing, while the red templar plot is a bit lame in that path, it's completely nonexistent if you play Champions of the Just; by contrast, Calpernia is unnecessary, as Alexius fills more or less the same role as the sympathetic Venatori. Additionally, the use of the red templars as Corypheus' main army while the Venatori engage in espionage and subversion feels like a better showing of each side's capabilities.

 

Then there are the themes... I play Inquisition, in part, as a way to see the old ways end. The Inquisition is the force of a new world, and it can show its commitment to change by allying with the mages. The templars, meanwhile, have the most fitting end I could imagine: they're killed by conformity. They walk blindly to their deaths upon the order of superiors, and in so doing, finally find a god to serve.

[Iakus]

My view is that hushed whispers really sells the stake of the threat- but it's CotJ that carries the tone better after the Breach is closed.

 

Hushed Whispers has a really strong intro, don't get me wrong- it's got a compelling hook about why it's important, even more important, than the Templars. And time magic definitely sells the importance of closing the breach- how the world is breaking apart, demons everywhere, and people we know (and maybe even like) will suffer for it.

 

But after the Breach is closed... the mages are pretty meh, all things considered. Fiona isn't a participant, or a significant contributer, and the mages don't really distinguish themselves: most of their war table missions involve bringing in strays and mages who went to ground, which is nice and all but really doesn't have much on stopping demonic attacks on major cities.

 

In addition, the Red Templars are... well, it's a case of DAI getting confused about what sort of enemy we're facing. Is Corypheus an army, or a conspiracy? Red Templars are the former, but Corypheus's plot as a whole is the later- and, yeah, I like Empress De Lions as much as the next person for a sense of a major battle against Corypheus, but that's about it. Thematically, the Red Templars are a wash: they're the worst sort of brainwashed foes, who have no ideology or rational for their actions because they're just mind-controlled slaves. Sampson has a pretty weak character arc about how they're fighting the Chantry that used and disregarded them- but he's one-off, poorly supported, and his reason for following Corypheus amounts to spit. His subordinates don't share his feelings on account of being, well, mind-controlled slaves. It's even worse than Cerberus in ME3: Cerberus could claim it was going for a long-shot gambit of Human dominance, but the Red Templars have nothing in common with the actual Templars other than armor. There's no anti-magic/anti-mage vendetta, not even a real idea of if the Red Templars are capable of anti-magic, and they're serving mage supremacists because... well, no reason than addiction and enslavement.

 

It's a weak antagonist (Samson), and a underwhelming ally (Fiona) for Hushed Whispers.

 

 

On the other hand, Champions of the just really picks up with the merits of actually recruiting the group. Unlike the mages, who are passive to their own recruitment and within their own mission, the Templars are enthusiastic- they fight with you, they'll fight for you, and they directly admit to their own failings in a way Fiona refuses to. Almost immediately they are a credible boon to the Inquisition- manpower when we're still strong, public support, and their own support networks that the mages do not have. We're told regardless that the Templars the Inquisition has gathered up are the core of our forces, and damn if it doesn't make more sense whether you ally or conscript them. Plus, in their war table missions they go out and do the things the Inquisition stands for- restoring order, fighting demons, managing the fearful masses in the pursuit of truth. Baras the Badass becoming the head of the Templars is a high-point for later in the game, an excellent goalpost for the Inquisition's rising strength- and one with no Mage equivalent.

 

No only is the quality of your ally better, but the quality of your rival antagonist is improved. Calpernia and a cult of mage supremacists makes sense as an ally and tool for Corypheus. The Venatori not only have the ideological/thematic parallels with Corypheus- mage supremacists, Tevinter- but they operate like Corypheus as well- conspiratorial, secretive. Calpernia is a much better rival to Leliana than Samson is to Cullen, and the Inquisition-Venatori matchup is much better in terms if the premise of the Inqusition- to inquire, to investigate, to ferret out- than the conventional battle force that was the Red Templars. Our allies work better for it as well: we have Templars, trained and experienced in hunting maleficar, and our primary enemies are maleficar. Whereas in Husted Whispers, we take a mage force that was soundly beaten by the Templars, and... well, we don't really make exceptional use of them against the Red Templars.

 

Calpernia and Venatori? Better enemies. Evil- but thinking evil.

 

Or so my thoughts go.

Agreed.  I prefer Champions of the Just at least in part because time-travel stories are very hard to do while making any kind of sense.  While the other choice is a very interesting Battle at the Center of the Mind.

 

And yes, I find Ser Barras much more interesting than Fiona.  While Fiona just hangs out in the library justifying her past actions, Barras can be sent on missions to help the Inquisition and atone for what the Templars had become.  He ends up doing things that really exemplify what Templars are supposed to be:  battling demons and maleficar as well as protecting innocent mages from angry mobs.  

 

And yeah, Calpernia is a much better antagonist.  Her reasons for following Corypheus are believable, and she even garners a bit of sympathy.  She's not "Evil for the Lulz"  she's like the operative in Serenity, she truly believes she's making the world a better place.

[Xilizhra]

Agreed.  I prefer Champions of the Just at least in part because time-travel stories are very hard to do while making any kind of sense.  While the other choice is a very interesting Battle at the Center of the Mind.

 

And yes, I find Ser Barras much more interesting than Fiona.  While Fiona just hangs out in the library justifying her past actions, Barras can be sent on missions to help the Inquisition and atone for what the Templars had become.  He ends up doing things that really exemplify what Templars are supposed to be:  battling demons and maleficar as well as protecting innocent mages from angry mobs.  

 

And yeah, Calpernia is a much better antagonist.  Her reasons for following Corypheus are believable, and she even garners a bit of sympathy.  She's not "Evil for the Lulz"  she's like the operative in Serenity, she truly believes she's making the world a better place.

Barras, in my opinion, is redundant. The Inquisition's already taken the templars' role; they have no place in the world. He's just another agent. Not to mention that the Inquisition does a much, much better job of, you know, protecting the mages if you play In Hushed Whispers.

And as I said, Calpernia's place is filled by Alexius with In Hushed Whispers.

[Iakus]

Barras, in my opinion, is redundant. The Inquisition's already taken the templars' role; they have no place in the world. He's just another agent. Not to mention that the Inquisition does a much, much better job of, you know, protecting the mages if you play In Hushed Whispers.

And as I said, Calpernia's place is filled by Alexius with In Hushed Whispers.

 

Baras is an agent with an entire storyline of his own.  More than any other agent besides the Grey Wardens as a whole (if you ally with them)  His story is, in a sense, the redemption of the Tempalrs.  Not just filling the role of the Templars, he becomes a Templar in truth

 

Alexius is not without sympathy.  But he doesn't seem to be a True Believer in Corypheus the way Calpernia is.  He's a magister willing to do whatever it takes to save his son.  His reasons are focused and personal.  Calpernia, otoh,  is from the very bottom rungs of Tevinter society.  Even as a mage she had to fight for everything.  And she sees Corypheus as the means of overthrowing the dissolute Tevinter Empire and bringing back the Imperium of old.  And she has firsthand reason to want to bring that about.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it, her reasoning to ally with Corypheus is not that different from why elves would work with Solas.

[The Hierophant]

Barras, in my opinion, is redundant. The Inquisition's already taken the templars' role; they have no place in the world. He's just another agent. Not to mention that the Inquisition does a much, much better job of, you know, protecting the mages if you play In Hushed Whispers.
And as I said, Calpernia's place is filled by Alexius with In Hushed Whispers.

Not really. Barris'/Templars' wartable missions showed that they exclusively took on missions that the Inquisition's regular forces weren't optimized for. Like the siege of Ansburg, and the man accused of being an abomination. While Calpernia's role is only interchangeable with Samson who Corypheus needed for his next meat suit.

[Xilizhra]

Baras is an agent with an entire storyline of his own.  More than any other agent besides the Grey Wardens as a whole (if you ally with them)  His story is, in a sense, the redemption of the Tempalrs.  Not just filling the role of the Templars, he becomes a Templar in truth

That depends on whether you think the templars can be redeemed. Personally, I don't, and this isn't enough. The only way it could theoretically be done is if they accepted the disbanding of the Circle and never again tried to exert power over mages.

 

 

Alexius is not without sympathy.  But he doesn't seem to be a True Believer in Corypheus the way Calpernia is.  He's a magister willing to do whatever it takes to save his son.  His reasons are focused and personal.  Calpernia, otoh,  is from the very bottom rungs of Tevinter society.  Even as a mage she had to fight for everything.  And she sees Corypheus as the means of overthrowing the dissolute Tevinter Empire and bringing back the Imperium of old.  And she has firsthand reason to want to bring that about.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it, her reasoning to ally with Corypheus is not that different from why elves would work with Solas.

The overlap is large enough that the loss of Calpernia is less significant than the loss of Samson.

[Iakus]

That depends on whether you think the templars can be redeemed. Personally, I don't, and this isn't enough. The only way it could theoretically be done is if they accepted the disbanding of the Circle and never again tried to exert power over mages.

 

I do.  And in fact, Champions of the Just is the perfect opportunity.  The entire leadership of the Templars is wiped out.  Dead or turned into monsters.  They are reliant on the Inqusition for leadership and focus, a perfect opportunity to wipe the slate clean, to install someone truly worthy of the responsibility to lead them, and someone who understands that it is the responsibility of Templars to protect everyone, mage and muggle alike.  To, truly become Champions of the Just

 

 

The overlap is large enough that the loss of Calpernia is less significant than the loss of Samson.

 

Eh, I don't see a lot of overlap besides "Tevinter mage" myself.  It would be like saying there's as lot of overlap between Sten and Iron Bull.

[The Hierophant]

I do. And in fact, Champions of the Just is the perfect opportunity. The entire leadership of the Templars is wiped out. Dead or turned into monsters.  They are reliant on the Inqusition for leadership and focus, a perfect opportunity to wipe the slate clean, to install someone truly worthy of the responsibility to lead them, and someone who understands that it is the responsibility of Templars to protect everyone, mage and muggle alike. To, truly become Champions of the Just.

beautiful

[Xilizhra]

I do.  And in fact, Champions of the Just is the perfect opportunity.  The entire leadership of the Templars is wiped out.  Dead or turned into monsters.  They are reliant on the Inqusition for leadership and focus, a perfect opportunity to wipe the slate clean, to install someone truly worthy of the responsibility to lead them, and someone who understands that it is the responsibility of Templars to protect everyone, mage and muggle alike.  To, truly become Champions of the Just

And to do that, they still need Leliana as Divine, so they don't take over the Circles again.

 

I'd partially agree with you, if it didn't mean leaving a whole bunch of innocents to death or slavery.

[Iakus]

And to do that, they still need Leliana as Divine, so they don't take over the Circles again.

 

I'd partially agree with you, if it didn't mean leaving a whole bunch of innocents to death or slavery.

Who becomes Divine is entirely beside the point.

 

And sadly, you are leaving innocents to death or slavery no matter which choice is made.

[Steelcan]

And to do that, they still need Leliana as Divine, so they don't take over the Circles again.

no they don't, they need Cassandra to help them find their true calling as guardians of the mundanes and the mages

[thesuperdarkone2]

I do. And in fact, Champions of the Just is the perfect opportunity. The entire leadership of the Templars is wiped out. Dead or turned into monsters. They are reliant on the Inqusition for leadership and focus, a perfect opportunity to wipe the slate clean, to install someone truly worthy of the responsibility to lead them, and someone who understands that it is the responsibility of Templars to protect everyone, mage and muggle alike. To, truly become Champions of the Just


Eh, I don't see a lot of overlap besides "Tevinter mage" myself. It would be like saying there's as lot of overlap between Sten and Iron Bull.

The Templar complaining to Cassandra and the Templar rebellion of Vivienne is divine prove the Templars are still the same mage-hating pricks they've always been. If you conscript them, no such redemption ever occurs.

Thus, the Templars are still the same people I've despised and I'm glad the majority were killed when I sided with the mages. One good egg doesn't change the fact that the entire batch is rotten.

Also, how are you going to prevent Templars from abusing their power ever again? Are you just hoping all the bad Templars get killed again?

[Xilizhra]

Who becomes Divine is entirely beside the point.

 

And sadly, you are leaving innocents to death or slavery no matter which choice is made.

I disagree. The templars are soldiers, not civilians; as most governments tend to weigh the deaths of the latter rather more highly, I do the same.

[Nixou]

Personally, I find it much more appropriate and fitting to go with In Hushed Whispers

 

 

The main problem I have personally with Champions of the Just is that while Redclife is located near the Frostbacks and therefore Haven, while Therinfal Redoubt is located in the eastern half of Ferelden.

 

It always annoyed me because after starting the game with a mage Warden and a mage Hawke, I wanted to play a pro-templar Inquisitor so the roaster of protagonists would be somewhat balanced... But geography makes the Venatori a much more immediate threat which renders me incapable of choosing the Templars.

[Lulupab]

Templars were used by Seekers as puppets and their existence is pretty much unnecessary. They suffer a lot because of Lyrium, make Leliana divine and if Cullen is not on lyrium, the majority of the order will follow him.

 

Plus there are many ex-templars in Inquisition already, mostly the smart ones who left the order led by a demon. But mages, being welcome only in Redcliff, are still there. They have children mages and helpless civilians who happens to mages. All Templars are adults, mostly veterans with quite a few scars. Mages are born, Templars are made. I don't see any dilemma in regards to siding with who saves more innocents.