348 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

@Lulupab, Nothing beats killing Fiona.  Absolutely nothing.

 

And I'm not fond of fighting mindless enemies. Give me enemies with a purpose, not enemies who run into my fireballs cause their master didn't turn on a self preservation switch. Although, that's pretty much all the enemy npcs in DA. smh

 

That is, like many things said here, a personal preference and grudge against Fiona.

 

Denam is not mindless, he took the red Lyrium willingly and was himself when he was "red". He just overdosed on the stuff to become a bloody behemoth.

 

Meanwhile the fight with Fiona is meaningless. There is not a single word spoken, no reaction by anyone. The only explanation is she is utterly and completely under control somehow. I mean if Alexius can bend the time, controlling the mind of few mages must be a walk in the park.

[Steelcan]

That is, like many things said here, a personal preference and grudge against Fiona.

 

Denam is not mindless, he took the red Lyrium willingly and was himself when he was "red". He just overdosed on the stuff to become a bloody behemoth.

 

Meanwhile the fight with Fiona is meaningless. There is not a single word spoken, no reaction by anyone. The only explanation is she is utterly and completely under control somehow. I mean if Alexius can bend the time, controlling the mind of few mages must be a walk in the park.

still waiting on that source

[Hazegurl]

That is, like many things said here, a personal preference and grudge against Fiona.

 

Denam is not mindless, he took the red Lyrium willingly and was himself when he was "red". He just overdosed on the stuff to become a bloody behemoth.

 

Meanwhile the fight with Fiona is meaningless. There is not a single word spoken, no reaction by anyone. The only explanation is she is utterly and completely under control somehow. I mean if Alexius can bend the time, controlling the mind of few mages must be a walk in the park.

Denam was not himself.  In Champions, you notice Denam acting strange and can even remark on how sick he looked.  He was losing himself then.  He most certainly wasn't himself as the Behemeth. 

 

No one should care enough about Fiona to speak to her. She's a moron. And the theory of her supposed mind control is just fan theory.

 

She went to VR to ask for an alliance then went back to RedCliffe then Alexuis shows up and bends time in that area to before she went to VR.  That is why she doesn't remember going to VR to speak with the IQ because the Fiona we spoke to never did that.

 

So by then, she joined the Venatori and led her fellow mages into slavery to them.  She was totally willing to do whatever Alexius wanted from her.  So if the IQ doesn't get rid of Alexius, Fiona willingly leads an attack to kill the IQ.  Simple as that.

[Lulupab]

still waiting on that source

 

Still waiting an explanation on robot Fiona. Even if you go to Redcliff and talk to her first, she is still a robot.

 

No reactions.

No words.

Nothing.

 

Evidence does not always exist, it can be very well lack thereof.

[Lulupab]

Denam was not himself.  In Champions, you notice Denam acting strange and can even remark on how sick he looked.  He was losing himself then.  He most certainly wasn't himself as the Behemeth. 

 

No one should care enough about Fiona to speak to her. She's a moron. And the theory of her supposed mind control is just fan theory.

 

She went to VR to ask for an alliance then went back to RedCliffe then Alexuis shows up and bends time in that area to before she went to VR.  That is why she doesn't remember going to VR to speak with the IQ because the Fiona we spoke to never did that.

 

So by then, she joined the Venatori and led her fellow mages into slavery to them.  She was totally willing to do whatever Alexius wanted from her.  So if the IQ doesn't get rid of Alexius, Fiona willingly leads an attack to kill the IQ.  Simple as that.

 

So your explanation of her robot behavior as "moron". She certainly knows how to while, that's for sure. There is no reaction, not even acknowledgment that you actually fought her. Neither from her or anyone. At least Denam is an all out monster, so it makes sense. But it definitely doesn't in Fiona's case.

 

She allied with Alexius when a bunch of templars attacked the city and killed mages or none-mages alike. You can ask the town people, particularly the healer who healed the attacked.

 

Both Templars and Mages distrust the Inquisition greatly at first, so its not anything only Fiona does. Denam and many recruits take the red Lyrium willingly. You can even judge him and he seems capable of making coherent thoughts. Of course some were tricked into taking it, but the "Inquisition of heretics" were coming for them.

[Steelcan]

Still waiting an explanation on robot Fiona. Even if you go to Redcliff and talk to her first, she is still a robot.

 

No reactions.

No words.

Nothing.

 

Evidence does not always exist, it can be very well lack thereof.

she's not a robot, she's just a moron whose actions have finally caught up with her

[Hazegurl]

So your explanation of her robot behavior as "moron". She certainly knows how to while, that's for sure. There is no reaction, not even acknowledgment that you actually fought her. Neither from her or anyone. At least Denam is an all out monster, so it makes sense. But it definitely doesn't in Fiona's case.

 

She allied with Alexius when a bunch of templars attacked the city and killed mages or none-mages alike. You can ask the town people, particularly the healer who healed the attacked.

 

Both Templars and Mages distrust the Inquisition greatly at first, so its not anything only Fiona does. Denam and many recruits take the red Lyrium willingly. You can even judge him and he seems capable of making coherent thoughts. Of course some were tricked into taking it, but the "Inquisition of heretics" were coming for them.

Robo Fiona never existed, it's a made up excuse for her behavior.  She was acting the way she was in Redclife because time was bent in that entire area which directly affected her actions (ie, erasing that she met with the IQ in VR).  And she was a moron long before reaching Redcliffe.   But I can understand wanting a better story, I wish things were done differently overall.  But the story, as it's currently written; would be everyone sitting around talking about Fiona after Haven and that would be weird.  By that time Cory has revealed himself so there are better things to worry about and there is no way to capture Fiona for Judgement at Haven. Even if she had survived the fight, a mountain still falls on her head.

 

Templars didn't attack the city, that was cut from the game.  Templars pursued the mages and they were offered safety in the Village.  That's when the Venatori infiltrated the Village and convinced Fiona to side with Tevinter based on the fear that Templars were coming to attack.

 

Denam knew what the Lyrium does and took it, then passed it on under the Lord Seeker's(Envy's) Orders. When you do Champions, Denam has not taken enough of the stuff to totally lose it but he was already crazy and far gone, just not Behemoth gone or glowy red eyes gone. Because red Lyrium corruption is gradual.   He claims he was just following orders then starts barking about some higher power.  It's like I said before, some reject and outcast Templars willingly take it because they are idiots and the rest were tricked by Envy and killed.   They didn't take it out of fear of the Inquisition because the Inquisition was never pursuing them for anything other than an for aid with the breach.

[Barquiel]

The Templar complaining to Cassandra and the Templar rebellion of Vivienne is divine prove the Templars are still the same mage-hating pricks they've always been. If you conscript them, no such redemption ever occurs.

Thus, the Templars are still the same people I've despised and I'm glad the majority were killed when I sided with the mages. One good egg doesn't change the fact that the entire batch is rotten.

Also, how are you going to prevent Templars from abusing their power ever again? Are you just hoping all the bad Templars get killed again?

Agreed, the entire circle system was rotten to the core and beyond redemption. All these rank and file templars in Therinfal followed Lucius for months and killed who knows how many innocent mages...following bad order after bad order and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry (and all this happened before the red lyrium thing). And I am supposed to trust their moral compass or believe that they would suddenly treat mages fairly and with dignity? To me, these Templars have pretty much asked for their fate.

As for the topic itself, I'd agree that a magocracy is not necessarily better or worse than any other form of government that currently exists in Thedas...but they are all far from ideal, so that's not saying a great deal. Gaspard started a war and killed thousands just because he thought it's his "birthright". Ferelden is recovering from a civil war. Is Rivain really worse?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Denam was not himself.  In Champions, you notice Denam acting strange and can even remark on how sick he looked.  He was losing himself then.  He most certainly wasn't himself as the Behemeth. 

 

No one should care enough about Fiona to speak to her. She's a moron. And the theory of her supposed mind control is just fan theory.

 

She went to VR to ask for an alliance then went back to RedCliffe then Alexuis shows up and bends time in that area to before she went to VR.  That is why she doesn't remember going to VR to speak with the IQ because the Fiona we spoke to never did that.

 

So by then, she joined the Venatori and led her fellow mages into slavery to them.  She was totally willing to do whatever Alexius wanted from her.  So if the IQ doesn't get rid of Alexius, Fiona willingly leads an attack to kill the IQ.  Simple as that.

Have you actually taken a look at the rebel mages if you sided with the templars in In your heart shall burn? They don't even look like normal people anymore. No sane person would ever think they willingly helped the venatori if you looked at them.

 

Also, the guide itself says they are brainwashed and Weekes himself said it was true. The only people who don't believe that are people just looking for excuses to hate on mages.

 

Of course, considering how delusional you were with accepting basic facts and reality with regards to the Hawke codex, I doubt anything would convince you or anyone else.

 

Funny how the pro-templars wind up being the most delusional people. Guess they just can't accept that they can't accept reality not conforming to their bias.

[Dean_the_Young]

I disagree. The templars are soldiers, not civilians;

 

And what does that have to do with innocence?

 

Ignoring, of course, that this line of argument can also damn the mages as civilians who chose to become soldiers when they chose rebellion and pushed those they could to get alone or else.
 

 

as most governments tend to weigh the deaths of the latter rather more highly, I do the same.

 

 

Now that's not right at all, Xil- you weigh the deaths of the latter rather more highly because you like them more. Try not to forget your genocide arguments merely when it's inconvenient.

 

There's also the matter of what governments actually weigh in cases of rebellion. Strangely, even relatively liberal and democratic governments don't innately support any revolutionary group that pops up- and the modern security states in even liberal democratic countries tend not to like the prospect of minority groups with access to WMD capabilities. Which is what mages, in any modern equivalent, would be compared to.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Agreed, the entire circle system was rotten to the core and beyond redemption. All these rank and file templars in Therinfal followed Lucius for months and killed who knows how many innocent mages...following bad order after bad order and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry (and all this happened before the red lyrium thing). And I am supposed to trust their moral compass or believe that they would suddenly treat mages fairly and with dignity? To me, these Templars have pretty much asked for their fate.

This. As far as I'm concerned, the templars being killed by their own hated of mages is a fitting and karmic end to the Templars. Considering that it is fact that good templars are in the minority and the fact that codexes confirm the Chantry wants fanatical templars as opposed to good templars. I see nothing good out of coming from siding with the Templars. Plus, the "redemption" arc only applies if you ally with them and Barris is alive. If you conscript them, there is no so-called "redemption"? And what are they being redeemed for? Following bad orders? How exactly is are they never going to follow bad orders again? Treat mages better? Considering that good templars are said to be in the minority and the bad templars are surrounded by mages, how exactly are

 

If you plan to have Cass or Viv as divine, siding with the mages will help the new templars at least be better. All the bad templars get killed meaning the smart and/or good templars are the only ones remaining. There, they can at least rebuild and not have to deal with the inherent corruption that remained in the old order.

 

Of course, Leliana and allied mages pretty much got rid of practically all templars and unless Vivienne forces her circle to have templars in the Leliana college ending.

[Dean_the_Young]

Agreed, the entire circle system was rotten to the core and beyond redemption. All these rank and file mages in Redcliffe followed Fiona for years and killed who knows how many innocent mundanes...following bad order after bad order and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry (and all this happened before the venatori thing). And I am supposed to trust their moral compass or believe that they would suddenly treat mundanes fairly and with dignity? To me, these Mages have pretty much asked for their fate.

 

Just changed a few words to show how non-unique your argument's structure is.

 

Totally cool if don't care- though I except you'll respond with an assertion that the mages in Redcliffe are somehow unrelated to all the flaws of the rebel mages while all Templars are complicit in the flaws of any Templars- but that's really the point of your double standard of damnation.

[Hazegurl]

Have you actually taken a look at the rebel mages if you sided with the templars in In your heart shall burn? They don't even look like normal people anymore. No sane person would ever think they willingly helped the venatori if you looked at them.

 

Also, the guide itself says they are brainwashed and Weekes himself said it was true. The only people who don't believe that are people just looking for excuses to hate on mages.

 

Of course, considering how delusional you were with accepting basic facts and reality with regards to the Hawke codex, I doubt anything would convince you or anyone else.

 

Funny how the pro-templars wind up being the most delusional people. Guess they just can't accept that they can't accept reality not conforming to their bias.

Source on that brainwashing confirmation?

 

As far as I know, the only mages who were being controlled were the Wardens.  Dorian pretty much states that there were mages who joined the Venatori and the rest were killed.  So the mages who came down that mountain to attack, did so of their own free will.  What would be the point of brainwashing willing converts?

 

As for Hawke. Far be it from anyone to point out basic sentence structure and context when it gets in the way of your mage oppression movement. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

And what does that have to do with innocence?

 

Ignoring, of course, that this line of argument can also damn the mages as civilians who chose to become soldiers when they chose rebellion and pushed those they could to get alone or else.
 

 

Now that's not right at all, Xil- you weigh the deaths of the latter rather more highly because you like them more. Try not to forget your genocide arguments merely when it's inconvenient.

 

There's also the matter of what governments actually weigh in cases of rebellion. Strangely, even relatively liberal and democratic governments don't innately support any revolutionary group that pops up- and the modern security states in even liberal democratic countries tend not to like the prospect of minority groups with access to WMD capabilities. Which is what mages, in any modern equivalent, would be compared to.

The difference is that the Templars chose to be templars. They are also a military army and thus they knew what they were getting themselves into. Mages however didn't choose to be mages, they were born mages. Someone who was hated simply for being born is more sympathetic than someone who signed up to be a soldier.

 

Also, you KNOW there are children among the mages along with very young people who simply want to be treated as people. Are you saying condemning children to a fate of slavery, blood sacrifice, or worse. Are you saying its okay to kill children because they are part of the faction you don't like?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Source on that brainwashing confirmation?

 

As far as I know, the only mages who were being controlled were the Wardens.  Dorian pretty much states that there were mages who joined the Venatori and the rest were killed.  So the mages who came down that mountain to attack, did so of their own free will.  What would be the point of brainwashing willing converts?

 

As for Hawke. Far be it from anyone to point out basic sentence structure and context when it gets in the way of your mage oppression movement. 

https://twitter.com/...201854241861632

 

Also, how do you know "joining" the Venatori didn't involve essentially brainwashing them later. Don't forget the guide itself OUTRIGHT SAYS THEY ARE BRAINWASHED. 

 

Also, did you actually take a closer look at the faces of the rebel mages during IYHSB? They have corrupted skin and RED EYES! How can anyone look at that and think they aren't brainwashed?

 

As for Hawke, funny how multiple people pointing out how wrong you were in your interpretation is apparently a bad thing. Guess logic and facts are illegal when it comes to your mage hate movement.

[Barquiel]

Just changed a few words to show how non-unique your argument's structure is.
 
Totally cool if don't care- though I except you'll respond with an assertion that the mages in Redcliffe are somehow unrelated to all the flaws of the rebel mages while all Templars are complicit in the flaws of any Templars- but that's really the point of your double standard of damnation.

Could you please provide a source showing me that Fiona's rebels systematically killed mundanes or went on ethnic cleansing rampages? Because that's exactly what the templars under Lucius' command did.

[sandalisthemaker]

https://twitter.com/...201854241861632

 

Also, how do you know "joining" the Venatori didn't involve essentially brainwashing them later. Don't forget the guide itself OUTRIGHT SAYS THEY ARE BRAINWASHED. 

 

Also, did you actually take a closer look at the faces of the rebel mages during IYHSB? They have corrupted skin and RED EYES! How can anyone look at that and think they aren't brainwashed?

 

As for Hawke, funny how multiple people pointing out how wrong you were in your interpretation is apparently a bad thing. Guess logic and facts are illegal when it comes to your mage hate movement.

 

I just replayed In Your Heart Shall Burn two days ago.

 

There are no rebel mages to fight besides Fiona.  The enemies during the Haven attack are all Venatori soldiers and Venatori spellbinders. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I just replayed In Your Heart Shall Burn two days ago.

 

There are no rebel mages to fight besides Fiona.  The enemies during the Haven attack are all Venatori soldiers and Venatori spellbinders. 

The venatori spellbinders during IYHSB ARE the rebel mages. Look at the clothes they are wearing and compare them to the clothes the mages are wearing when you seal the breach with mages:

 

 

 

Also, look at how the venatori spellbinders after IYHSB wear the triangle hats and robes and have normal skin while the venatori spellbinders during IYHSB if you sided with the templars look like zombies and wear rebel mage clothing.

[Hazegurl]

Weekes flat out states that he does not know and needs to ask Gaider, then there is no follow up to confirm if it was true.  Unless you have the follow up where he states that is a fact?  As for the guide, wasn't it filled with inconsistencies?

 

And none of it erases Dorian's own account of what happened.  Those that did not join were killed. What would be the point in killing them when they could brainwash them? Explain that please. Why kill the mages who did not want to join? Why brainwash those who join willingly?

 

Please explain the point in all that?

 

The multiple people? Meaning you liking the post of the guy I was talking to? Yeah such a large number.  But this isn't about Hawke, this is about Fiona and you making statements you can't seem to prove.

 

Sigh, actually don't bother. You seem like one of those diehard mage supporters who think that to like mages you have to agree with every thing they say and do and if you don't you must hate them.   Placing you on ignore until you provide solid proof of your claim beyond a vague and unconfirmed tweets, your word on an inconsistent guide, and "Just look at their eyes through those hoods and helmets!"

[thesuperdarkone2]

Weekes flat out states that he does not know and needs to ask Gaider, then there is no follow up to confirm if it was true.  Unless you have the follow up where he states that is a fact?  As for the guide, wasn't it filled with inconsistencies?

 

And none of it erases Dorian's own account of what happened.  Those that did not join were killed. What would be the point in killing them when they could brainwash them? Explain that please. Why kill the mages who did not want to join? Why brainwash those who join willingly?

 

Please explain, what is the point?

 

The multiple people? Meaning you liking the post of the guy I was talking to? Yeah such a large number.  But this isn't about Hawke, this is about Fiona and you making statements you can't seem to prove.

 

Sigh, actually don't bother. You seem like one of those diehard mage supporters who think that to like mages you have to agree with every thing they say and do and if you don't you must hate them.   Placing you on ignore until you provide solid proof of your claim beyond a vague and unconfirmed tweets, your word on an inconsistent guide, and "Just look at their eyes through those hoods and helmets!

k. Seems like you are just like every other templar supporter on this site who refuses to accept logic and facts. Your attitude during the Hawke codex debacle pretty much proves you are too biased to accept anything that disputes your bias. At least I don't blatantly ignore basic facts like codexes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Could you please provide a source showing me that Fiona's rebels systematically killed mundanes or went on ethnic cleansing rampages? Because that's exactly what the templars under Lucius' command did.

 

Hey, what do you know-
 

 

-though I except you'll respond with an assertion that the mages in Redcliffe are somehow unrelated to all the flaws of the rebel mages while all Templars are complicit in the flaws of any Templars-

 

 

-it's almost like I called it.

 

We don't get a lot in DAI about the fighting, and even less about how prisoners were handled, but what we also don't get is reports of 'no prisoners taken', the slaughter of children, or anything approaching a systemic genocide. Is the lack of information worrying? Sure- ominous, even. Does it somehow implicate all Templars everywhere with doing the worst possible interpretation? Not really- especially since systemic ethnic cleansing doesn't actually solve the Templars war goals. If

 

 

You make an argument that Templars chose war, and so can be held accountable for the conduct and consequences of war. The same goes for mages who chose rebellion.

You make an argument that mages who didn't engage in atrocities in the course of rebellion shouldn't be considered collectively guilty. The same can be applied to Templars who didn't engage in atrocities.

You make an argument that the consequences of Lucius's leadership damns his followers. The same certainly should apply to the mages- all the more so because they democratically choose their leaders.

 

If you used the same standards on the Templars as you do the Mages, you'd use a far less selective argument.

[sandalisthemaker]

The venatori spellbinders during IYHSB ARE the rebel mages. Look at the clothes they are wearing and compare them to the clothes the mages are wearing when you seal the breach with mages:

 

 

 

Also, look at how the venatori spellbinders after IYHSB wear the triangle hats and robes and have normal skin while the venatori spellbinders during IYHSB if you sided with the templars look like zombies and wear rebel mage clothing.

 

Eh.  I don't have a save just before the battle, so I can't really go back and look closely ATM.

 

While fighting, I just see a staff and a floating book and immediately wipe the guy out before he can do anything.  I admit I wasn't looking at their robes or faces.

 

But their title is definitely Venatori Spellbinder.  Why wouldn't the game name them rebel mages if that is what they intended them to be? It would without a doubt alert the player that they are killing rebels who did end up siding with Cory.  Sounds like important info to me.  

 

IMO Fiona is just going along with Alexius' (ultimately Cory's) orders since she is obligated to serve in the Tevinter military for 10 years.  

[thesuperdarkone2]

Hey, what do you know-
 

 

-it's almost like I called it.

 

We don't get a lot in DAI about the fighting, and even less about how prisoners were handled, but what we also don't get is reports of 'no prisoners taken', the slaughter of children, or anything approaching a systemic genocide. Is the lack of information worrying? Sure- ominous, even. Does it somehow implicate all Templars everywhere with doing the worst possible interpretation? Not really- especially since systemic ethnic cleansing doesn't actually solve the Templars war goals. If

 

 

You make an argument that Templars chose war, and so can be held accountable for the conduct and consequences of war. The same goes for mages who chose rebellion.

You make an argument that mages who didn't engage in atrocities in the course of rebellion shouldn't be considered collectively guilty. The same can be applied to Templars who didn't engage in atrocities.

You make an argument that the consequences of Lucius's leadership damns his followers. The same certainly should apply to the mages- all the more so because they democratically choose their leaders.

 

If you used the same standards on the Templars as you do the Mages, you'd use a far less selective argument.

Then what did the templars do to mages during the war? You never hear of the templars ever taking any prisoners? That pretty much means that the templars killed any mages they fought.

Take a look at this official artwork. Does it look like the Templars would be merciful:

 

http://1.bp.blogspot...I_Apostates.jpg

Eh.  I don't have a save just before the battle, so I can't really go back and look closely ATM.

 

While fighting, I just see a staff and a floating book and immediately wipe the guy out before he can do anything.  I admit I wasn't looking at their robes or faces.

 

But their title is definitely Venatori Spellbinder.  Why wouldn't the game name them rebel mages if that is what they intended them to be? It would without a doubt alert the player that they are killing rebels who did end up sided with Cory.  Sounds like important info to me.  

 

IMO Fiona is just going along with Alexius' (ultimately Cory's) orders since she is obligated to serve in the Tevinter military for 10 years.  

Because by that point they have already been brainwashed into the Venatori, thus they are no longer rebel mages but Venatori spellbinders.

[Dean_the_Young]

The difference is that the Templars chose to be templars. They are also a military army and thus they knew what they were getting themselves into. Mages however didn't choose to be mages, they were born mages. Someone who was hated simply for being born is more sympathetic than someone who signed up to be a soldier.

 

Mages did, however, choose to be rebels, and to force rebellion on other mages and drag them along with it. The rebel mages aren't simply hated for being  born- they're hated for being rebellious.

 

Nor does sympathy have much to do with 'innocence', unless we're tossing aside any pretense at justice.

 

 

 

Also, you KNOW there are children among the mages along with very young people who simply want to be treated as people. Are you saying condemning children to a fate of slavery, blood sacrifice, or worse. Are you saying its okay to kill children because they are part of the faction you don't like?

 

 

Why no- I don't approve of Fiona's selling her charges to Tevinter. In fact, I often condemn her for it, just as I condemn her for dragging the entire Circles (including the children) into a Rebellion most didn't want and she wasn't prepared to protect them in.

 

If, bringing us back to the topic of guilt and innocence, we want to consider the children, the moral guilt rests more on the ones who dragged them along and into the threat of slavery, blood sacrifice, or worse.

[Il Divo]

^Being honest here, if that was the Mages' intentions, in some sense we could argue that they were using child hostages: "They would never attack children!".