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The question of magic and rulership


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#301
The Baconer

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I get why Cassandra might feel that... but I really don't get why anyone else should, since what the Seekers did doesn't really challenge the core of the system.

 

The secret of the seekers was that Tranquility could be reversed. That's nice... but Tranquility isn't the core of the Circle system. It isn't even primarily imposed by the system: it's a tool mostly used by mages on other mages they don't trust. The use of it by Templars as a punishment was already illegal and unsanctioned by the Seekers and the Chantry.

 

We can have a really good argument about whether the Seekers should have hidden it or not- but as far as 'rotten to the core,' the question is 'the core of what?' Reversing tranquility might be good for mages who were unjustly tranquilized- assuming they survive it. But it may be far less so in regards to mages who were 'justly' tranquilized by the processes that their fellow mages sanction.

 

Covering up the cure for Tranquility is only a tertiary aspect of the Seekers' corruption. It was, primarily, the greater neglect of their given duties, to such an extent that they actually helped to upend the system they were supposed to preserve. 


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#302
thesuperdarkone2

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That's strictly untrue. There's examples in the codex entries, and even one in Suledin Keep, where the red Templars are shown to retain their minds, personalities and beliefs. Whatever influence Corypheus was exerting over them it didn't make them mindless. I suspect only those in their very advanced stages of corruption, like Behemoths, were completely mindless.

Red Templars are examples of why you can't put men and women in a suit of armour, give them an addicting substance and then treat them like their not even people. And then after they're done serving just discard them to suffer with their lyrium addiction. As Samson points out they might as well have animated suits of armour to serve as Templars instead based how Templars were treated.

Calling Samson and his ilk irrelevant delegitimises the sufferings of the Templars in my opinion. They are an example of the worst of the Chantry and the Templar order, the fact that they were willing to cast out their brothers to beg on the street as lyrium addiction stole their minds.

This. Everyone simply thinks "Oh Calpernia is better, F Samson" without ever getting to the root of the issue. The issue has always been that the Chantry is perfectly content to use templars until their minds are gone and then essentially abandons them, or they punish templars by depriving them of lyrium.

 

Also, in Samson's short story, you see a group of red templars arguing with each other until Samson breaks them up so they aren't mindless droids that people think.



#303
Steelcan

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This. Everyone simply thinks "Oh Calpernia is better, F Samson" without ever getting to the root of the issue. The issue has always been that the Chantry is perfectly content to use templars until their minds are gone and then essentially abandons them, or they punish templars by depriving them of lyrium.

 

Also, in Samson's short story, you see a group of red templars arguing with each other until Samson breaks them up so they aren't mindless droids that people think.

someone already pointed out that they aren't mindless droids

 

they're corrupted by something that has the taint in it and are under the thumb of a man who is knowingly poisoning them with red lyrium and his boss is a magister darkspawn.



#304
MisterJB

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Calling Samson and his ilk irrelevant delegitimises the sufferings of the Templars in my opinion. They are an example of the worst of the Chantry and the Templar order, the fact that they were willing to cast out their brothers to beg on the street as lyrium addiction stole their minds.

 

Given how we are told and have seen Templars whose minds are too far gone are given a lyrium stipend and a caretaker and that we know Samson was expelled for commiting a crime, it seems most if not all of those who are cast out and cut off from Lyrium are the criminals who had it coming.
 



#305
The Baconer

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and that we know Samson was expelled for commiting a crime [...]

 

Of course, when said judgement was passed by Kirkwall's most substantial criminal...



#306
Hazegurl

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That's strictly untrue. There's examples in the codex entries, and even one in Suledin Keep, where the red Templars are shown to retain their minds, personalities and beliefs. Whatever influence Corypheus was exerting over them it didn't make them mindless. I suspect only those in their very advanced stages of corruption, like Behemoths, were completely mindless.

Red Templars are examples of why you can't put men and women in a suit of armour, give them an addicting substance and then treat them like their not even people. And then after they're done serving just discard them to suffer with their lyrium addiction. As Samson points out they might as well have animated suits of armour to serve as Templars instead based how Templars were treated.

Calling Samson and his ilk irrelevant delegitimises the sufferings of the Templars in my opinion. They are an example of the worst of the Chantry and the Templar order, the fact that they were willing to cast out their brothers to beg on the street as lyrium addiction stole their minds.

I concede that they seem to retain their minds, just not completely.

 

However, there is still too much evidence which leads to the conclusion that those who were working for Cory willingly were an outcast group and not the entire Red Templar force. Which means that the majority of the Templars did not feel the same as Samson and would not consider taking Red Lyrium a brilliant idea had they known what it was.  So no, I do not believe for a moment that it diminishes the Templars. All it means, is that those who got kicked from the Order deserved it.



#307
MisterJB

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Of course, when said judgement was passed by Kirkwall's most substantial criminal...

 

Oh, but she was right about Samson.

He was a traitor who could be bribed by mages with lyrium in DA2 and he was a traitor who served the worst mage of all for lyrium in DAI.



#308
thesuperdarkone2

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Oh, but she was right about Samson.

He was a traitor who could be bribed by mages with lyrium in DA2 and he was a traitor who served the worst mage of all for lyrium in DAI.

You do realize he was kicked out simply for passing a love note. Are you seriously defending both kicking someone out for passing a love note and lobotomizing someone for passing a love note? Something that was explicitly described as a BAD THING?!



#309
MisterJB

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You do realize he was kicked out simply for passing a love note. Are you seriously defending both kicking someone out for passing a love note and lobotomizing someone for passing a love note? Something that was explicitly described as a BAD THING?!


I advise reading the short story about Samson where it is stated that had, in mutiple occasions accepted bribes from mages.
Just because the favor that led to him being finally caught was an harmless one, does not mean his behavior was not wrong and dangerous.

Samson accepted bribes in the form of Blue Lyrium from mages. A decade later, he served a mage in return for Red Lyrium.
The difference here is one of level only.

#310
Lumix19

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Given how we are told and have seen Templars whose minds are too far gone are given a lyrium stipend and a caretaker and that we know Samson was expelled for commiting a crime, it seems most if not all of those who are cast out and cut off from Lyrium are the criminals who had it coming.


Given how Cullen was treated (and ends up) if he continues to take lyrium I'm not sure how widespread such care is.

#311
Lumix19

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I advise reading the short story about Samson where it is stated that had, in mutiple occasions accepted bribes from mages.
Just because the favor that led to him being finally caught was an harmless one, does not mean his behavior was not wrong and dangerous.

Samson accepted bribes in the form of Blue Lyrium from mages. A decade later, he served a mage in return for Red Lyrium.
The difference here is one of level only.


Not to defend such behaviour (though in my opinion it doesn't warrant getting kicked out and forced to live on the street begging for lyrium) but he was trying to feed an addiction that the Chantry had given him in the first place.
And he was giving freedoms to mages that they were wrongfully denied. Don't ignore the fact that he explicitly states that mages were locked in their rooms for most hours of the day.

#312
thesuperdarkone2

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Not to defend such behaviour (though in my opinion it doesn't warrant getting kicked out and forced to live on the street begging for lyrium) but he was trying to feed an addiction that the Chantry had given him in the first place.
And he was giving freedoms to mages that they were wrongfully denied. Don't ignore the fact that he explicitly states that mages were locked in their rooms for most hours of the day.

And that the only reason he was kicked out was due to showing mages compassion which was seen as a bad thing in the eyes of the lunatic known as Meredith.



#313
Lumix19

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I concede that they seem to retain their minds, just not completely.

However, there is still too much evidence which leads to the conclusion that those who were working for Cory willingly were an outcast group and not the entire Red Templar force. Which means that the majority of the Templars did not feel the same as Samson and would not consider taking Red Lyrium a brilliant idea had they known what it was. So no, I do not believe for a moment that it diminishes the Templars. All it means, is that those who got kicked from the Order deserved it.


"Deserved it" is very strong. It's not their fault they were addicted, sure it's their fault they abused it but I don't think kicking them out to die in the gutter was the humane thing to do. It took centuries and Cullen for a lyrium addiction treatment center to be set up.
Heck even killing them would probably have been more merciful.

#314
Hazegurl

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Samson broke the rules multiple times and the punishment was to be kicked from the Order.  To be kicked out means you no longer have the benefits of being a part of that organization. And it's not like Thedas has a drug treatment facility.  If you want to kick your habits, you basically have to do it the hard way like Cullen and the rest of the Templars who follow him.  Samson lacks any sort of personal responsibility for his actions.  It's everyone else's fault but his own. He refused to kick his habits, sold mages into slavery when they couldn't pay for his so called help, then turned on them once he thought he could get back in with the Templars, only to betray the Templars if he does get in.  He's a weasel.  I had no sympathy for him in DA2 and have none now.



#315
Lumix19

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Samson broke the rules multiple times and the punishment was to be kicked from the Order. To be kicked out means you no longer have the benefits of being a part of that organization. And it's not like Thedas has a drug treatment facility. If you want to kick your habits, you basically have to do it the hard way like Cullen and the rest of the Templars who follow him. Samson lacks any sort of personal responsibility for his actions. It's everyone else's fault but his own. He refused to kick his habits, sold mages into slavery when they couldn't pay for his so called help, then turned on them once he thought he could get back in with the Templars, only to betray the Templars if he does get in. He's a weasel. I had no sympathy for him in DA2 and have none now.


He broke the rules that were set by madwoman Meredith. And after 100s of years of Templars in existence why is there no drug treatment facility? Perhaps he couldn't kick his habit rather than didn't? Cullen had the support of others around him, who did Samson have? And he didn't sell Fenyriel into slavery, he sent them to Captain Reiner because that captain often takes on stowaways.

#316
Nixou

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It really was stupid for the mages to rebel the way they did in the first place.

 

What with all these children they had in their ranks, along with mages who could barely light a candle let alone fight. 

 

Actually, That is why the mage rebellion was inevitable: Templars were ruthless, abusive, sometimes murderous even, toward the weakest mages, but the most powerful mages, characters like a mage-Warden, a mage-Hawke, Wynne, Vivienne, Morrigan or Wilhelm were pretty much allowed to do whatever they wanted and more often than not permitted to garner a lot of political power.

 

How a system supposed to protect muggles from abuse by mages can maintain its legitimacy if every time the really dangerous ones start weaving their spells the Templars look the other way rather than risk punching above their weight-class?

 

***

 

Reversing tranquility is more than nice, it provides a potential solution to the age old problem of Mage possession. Cassandra outright tells us that those who reverse their tranquility are immune to mind control and demonic possession. And the very reason why Tranquility was used in the first place, along with the Harrowing (with its shaky legitimacy), is to prevent "weak" mages from becoming possessed. But the Seekers didn't care about the mages so they never bothered to investigate whether reversing the rite could actually secure mages against possession, instead they introduced it as a tool for "securing" mages, at the cost of their minds. It's only Cassandra who gives that possibility a thought and tries to investigate it centuries after the Seekers were formed.

 

That was the original role of Tranquility, but as Dragon Age 2 showed, it was becoming increasingly used as a tool to stifle dissent.

Besides, reversing tranquility doesn't offers immunity to possession: Seekers are effectively possessed by a faith spirit, that's why Demons can't enter as there's already a magic hermit crab in that shell, but Pharamond was possessed pretty much immediately after reversing his tranquility. I'm not sure the "Let's turn all mages into abominations but it's okay, because we'll allow only nice spirits vetted beforehand inside" opinion would have won a lot of support.

 

***

 

 

 

I advise reading the short story about Samson where it is stated that had, in mutiple occasions accepted bribes from mages.
Just because the favor that led to him being finally caught was an harmless one, does not mean his behavior was not wrong and dangerous.

 

I'd advise paying attention to the great many quests, event and parts of the lore that show that templars being bribed by mages is a widespread phenomenon.

In fact, between the abusive sociopaths, the Templars accepting bribeds and the Templars who porked their charges, pretty much every Templar is breaking their order's rules one way or another: If I am to feel sympathetic toward a Templar, I'll take the Templar who accepted to play postman for kickbacks to the guy who lobotomized teenagers so he could rape them more easily, thankyouverymuch -_-


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#317
Iakus

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Actually, That is why the mage rebellion was inevitable: Templars were ruthless, abusive, sometimes murderous even, toward the weakest mages, but the most powerful mages, characters like a mage-Warden, a mage-Hawke, Wynne, Vivienne, Morrigan or Wilhelm were pretty much allowed to do whatever they wanted and more often than not permitted to garner a lot of political power.

 

How a system supposed to protect muggles from abuse by mages can maintain its legitimacy if every time the really dangerous ones start weaving their spells the Templars look the other way rather than risk punching above their weight-class?

 

***

 

 

That was the original role of Tranquility, but as Dragon Age 2 showed, it was becoming increasingly used as a tool to stifle dissent.

Besides, reversing tranquility doesn't offers immunity to possession: Seekers are effectively possessed by a faith spirit, that's why Demons can't enter as there's already a magic hermit crab in that shell, but Pharamond was possessed pretty much immediately after reversing his tranquility. I'm not sure the "Let's turn all mages into abominations but it's okay, because we'll allow only nice spirits vetted beforehand inside" opinion would have won a lot of support.

 

***

 

 

 

 

I'd advise paying attention to the great many quests, event and parts of the lore that show that templars being bribed by mages is a widespread phenomenon.

In fact, between the abusive sociopaths, the Templars accepting bribeds and the Templars who porked their charges, pretty much every Templar is breaking their order's rules one way or another: If I am to feel sympathetic toward a Templar, I'll take the Templar who accepted to play postman for kickbacks to the guy who lobotomized teenagers so he could rape them more easily, thankyouverymuch -_-

I have also noticed via a number of quests and lore showing me blood mages, abominations, and general abuse of magic to be a "widespread phenomenon"

 

If I were to judge mages the same way Templars are being judged, I'd say pretty much every mage was mad with power one way or another  <_<


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#318
Hazegurl

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He broke the rules that were set by madwoman Meredith. And after 100s of years of Templars in existence why is there no drug treatment facility? Perhaps he couldn't kick his habit rather than didn't? Cullen had the support of others around him, who did Samson have? And he didn't sell Fenyriel into slavery, he sent them to Captain Reiner because that captain often takes on stowaways.

He still broke the rules regardless of who created them. If you have a job and you break the rules set by your boss, you deserve to get fired. It doesn't matter if your boss is an a**hole and you think his rules are dumb. If you break those dumb rules, you deserve to get fired.  No one else to blame but yourself for thinking you somehow overrule your boss.

 

Samson did not break them for the benefit of mages, but because he was a "crack head" getting his high elsewhere.  It's quite clear that Samson did not care what side he's on as a long as he gets "dwarf dust" in the end. He's a junkie who hangs out with anyone willing to feed his addictions. Templars, Mages, or an Ancient darkspawn Magister. He has no loyalty to anyone.  If they got the highs he's willing to "help out".

 

As for Fen, Samson quite clearly states that he turned Fenyriel over to the Captain after he knew that he was capturing the Mages and ransoming them back to the Templars or selling them into slavery.  Both Hawke and Anders call him out on his behavior. 

 

And the Chantry does take care of their Templars, those who have been working for them for years are too far into their addiction to change by the time their career is done.  So they care for those individuals. They are under no obligation to care for those who are kicked from their organization and I doubt Samson would even get help for his addiction if he could.  I do believe that the Chantry should have some sort of treatment facility for Templars who wish to go clean, but Dragon age isn't set during modern times.  Drug addiction existed for thousands of years before such treatments ever occurred so I don't expect there to be one in DA.


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#319
SgtSteel91

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Except one does get set up by Cullen if you help him kick his habit.



#320
thesuperdarkone2

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He still broke the rules regardless of who created them. If you have a job and you break the rules set by your boss, you deserve to get fired. It doesn't matter if your boss is an a**hole and you think his rules are dumb. If you break those dumb rules, you deserve to get fired.  No one else to blame but yourself for thinking you somehow overrule your boss.

 

Samson did not break them for the benefit of mages, but because he was a "crack head" getting his high elsewhere.  It's quite clear that Samson did not care what side he's on as a long as he gets "dwarf dust" in the end. He's a junkie who hangs out with anyone willing to feed his addictions. Templars, Mages, or an Ancient darkspawn Magister. He has no loyalty to anyone.  If they got the highs he's willing to "help out".

 

As for Fen, Samson quite clearly states that he turned Fenyriel over to the Captain after he knew that he was capturing the Mages and ransoming them back to the Templars or selling them into slavery.  Both Hawke and Anders call him out on his behavior. 

 

And the Chantry does take care of their Templars, those who have been working for them for years are too far into their addiction to change by the time their career is done.  So they care for those individuals. They are under no obligation to care for those who are kicked from their organization and I doubt Samson would even get help for his addiction if he could.  I do believe that the Chantry should have some sort of treatment facility for Templars who wish to go clean, but Dragon age isn't set during modern times.  Drug addiction existed for thousands of years before such treatments ever occurred so I don't expect there to be one in DA.

Except he didn't become a crackhead BEFORE being kicked out. There is NO indication he got paid for delivering the letter. For all intents and purposes, it seems delivering the love letter was simply an act of compassion for mages.

 

In what world is punishing someone for delivering a love letter ok? That would be like saying anyone who wears a blue shirt will be executed and someone accidentally wore a blue shirt so they deserve to be killed. Only a complete lunatic would think what happened to Samson was justified.

 

He suffered because he dared to show compassion for a mage. In what world is that justified?



#321
MisterJB

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Not to defend such behaviour (though in my opinion it doesn't warrant getting kicked out and forced to live on the street begging for lyrium) but he was trying to feed an addiction that the Chantry had given him in the first place.
And he was giving freedoms to mages that they were wrongfully denied. Don't ignore the fact that he explicitly states that mages were locked in their rooms for most hours of the day.

Surely you can understand the danger in having prison guards who can be bribed by the very people they are supposed to be guarding.

If not, the fact that he ended up serving the very worst mage that ever lived in exchange for lyrium should be sufficient proof of how vile Samson is and always was.

Meredith, for all her faults, saw it first than everyone else. Had she executed him, a lot of lives would have been spared.



#322
Dean_the_Young

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Covering up the cure for Tranquility is only a tertiary aspect of the Seekers' corruption. It was, primarily, the greater neglect of their given duties, to such an extent that they actually helped to upend the system they were supposed to preserve. 

 

What corruption of what duties? This is not an idle question- this is about system practices, not the views of individuals, and what they actually are reasonably expected to do. 'Act the way I like' is not a meaningful standard.

 

'Corruption' as an organizational concept has two meanings. The dominant meaning, relevant in modern political discourse, is 'dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.'

 

There's precious little to suggest that there was systemic bribery within the Seekers, even fraudulent. Of all the Seekers we've met, only one had his services 'purchased' by an outside offer, and that was Lucian- and even that wasn't for money. Meanwhile, Lambert was a hardliner, but not a fraudulent one- he believed in a hard stance against the mages, and was looking for a justification for it, but there was reason. He didn't invent justifications or frame the innocent for his suspicions- he was right about there being a murderer, and there was a independence movement, and Justinia was sabotaging him and the Templars. None of these were 'bought' views- just as there's nothing to indicate the Seeker investigation of Kirkwall was fradulent. Unsatisfying? Sure- you can place more blame on whoever you want, and not agree with the conclusions, but the reasonings for the Seekers were not baseless. Kirkwall was a problem, and it wasn't just Meredith. In so much that the Seekers put pragmaticism above purity, this is critiquable- but it's also the nature of actually having and exercising power, rather than being a faltless observer.

 

The Seeker investigations of Kirkwall seem to be the greatest 'failure' of the seekers corruption, so I'll hit on it here.

 

Even if you posit that the 'proper' answer should have been removing Meredith- if there's any good point to remove Meredith that doesn't rely on meta-knowledge and wouldn't threaten to make the situation worse- it doesn't change the fact that for all her paranoia, she was right about real, legitimate corruption in the Kirkwall Circle. The First Enchanter was a blood mage protecting for a serial killer out of political convenience. Maleficar haunted the streets. Saying that it would have been better even so, so long as the tensions died down, isn't an argument about purity from corruption- it's an argument that corruption is preferable so long as it keeps the peace.

 

And honestly- cracking down on Templar corruption was one of the problems with Meredith inflaming tensions in context of Kirkwall. Even what's-his-nuts, the tranquil rapist, had to resort to secret crimes- you know, the sort that the Seekers wouldn't have naturally overturned if they were investigating Meredith- and this was when Meredith was a hardliner. In the first two acts we get multiple references that Meredith is cracking down on corruption- Hawke needs big money because bribes to avoid the Templars are getting harder, fewer Templars are willing to take them, and those that do (like Samson) are getting pushed out. Meredith cracks down on the mage underground, and the lyrium smugglers, and the likes of Anders mage-freedom underground. In the first two acts, through the Qunari invasion, any fair Seeker investigation that can look to what we know wouldn't have found Meredith to be the root of corruption- it would have found her to be trying to root it out rather than the comfortable entrenchment that had existed before.

 

It's only come Act 3 that Meredith starts stepping outside her bounds for reals- but it's also here that removing Meredith would do the least 'good' in the name of countering corruption, and could cause the least immediate harm. By the time Meredith becomes insane, she's not only the most poltically powerful person in the city- and thus trying to remove her risks a costly fight- but she also has a real and immediate menace to face with the maleficar movement, Tevinter agitators, and so on. Reigning Meredith in and stopping the Templars doesn't solve a blood-mage first enchanter, or the maleficar in the streets. Continuing the crackdown under new leadership doesn't change the tensions. Either corruption continues by empowering Meredith's enemies by taking her down, or by tolerating Meredith's abuses- but unless you can take down both sides (and there's precious little to suggest that's possible without remarkable cost), there's no corruption-free approach. I honestly don't see what a Seeker investigation could conclude that would 'solve' Kirkwall in a corruption-free manner.

 

 

 

That's all the direct form of corruption- the one most people refer or insinuate when calling an organization corrupt. But there's the other meaning as well- "the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning."

 

This is the other use- and can be used on the Seekers- but not as simply as many suggest. Yes, the Seekers (and Templars) have changed since their intial formation- and in most cases that's considered an evolution, a good thing. It's also been incrimental- neither Lambert or anyone else woke up off the bed one morning and said 'hey, let's do something different.' What matters in the context of the Seekers is 'what is their purpose?'- and how could they have avoided being corrupt.

 

There's two frames of reference here when it comes to this usage of corruption. 'Original purpose,' in which the original form of the thing is the proper/correct form, and 'traditional purpose,' in which even as things change over time the norms of generations do change, but this is an acceptable and good thing and the current norms are the 'baseline' from which corruption is measured.

 

In either case, it's hard to claim the Seekers were corrupt- or at least, anywhere near as corrupt as Divine Justinia.

 

For original purpose, the cornerstone we'd have to look at is the Nevarra Accords- the founding agreement that founded the modern chantry and its relationships with the Templars and Seekers. It's occasionally said that the Circles were never meant to be prisons, but rather refuges. Arguable- the distinction between a prison and a refuge is often state of mind-but a far more radical deviation from the origin is the actual disolusion of the Circles entirely. If the Seekers did NOT leave Justinia because of her intent to allow the Rebellion to succede as fait accompli, then they really would be complicit violating the original purpose of the accord. Which was, ultimately, incompatible with mage independence and integration, which are the goals of the mage rebellion. Under founding purpose corruption, leaving the Chantry is the only anti-corrupt path so long as the Chantry intends to allow the mages to leave. The legitimacy of the arrangement between Chantry and the Templars is based on the agreement, not the Divine herself- if the Divine violates the accord, she is corrupt. The original purpose of the Seekers and the Templars is not to be her lapdogs and do whatever she says because she says it.

 

Now, original purpose does have one fair criticism for the seekers- that they should have been more impartial between mages and templars. This is true- but not particularly relevant, since most of the contexts we see are not systemic sorts where 'unbiased' would have necessarily done anything different. As was argued above, even an 'impartial' Kirkwall investigation would have had a hard time doing differently early on, or avoided implicit corruption come Act 3. Lambert was certainly biased, but many of his actions were against corruption or actions that even a 'fair' Lord Seeker couldn't have countenanced without tolerating corruption. And once the rebellion again, the measure of closer original purpose is probably going to fall with 'meet the intent of Nevarra accord in maintaining Circles' than 'allow collapse of Nevarra accord in name of Divine.'

 

'Traditional purpose' is the line of thought being implied when corruption is cited by people who are thinking of Lambert's opposition to the Divine. This appeals to more current norms: that because the Seekers have become the personal agents of the Divine, that because the Templars have spent a millenia following the Chantry's orders, they should continue doing so regardless of the Leader and her views. The Seekers and Templars legitimacy comes from the Divine, not the Neverra Accord. Obey the orders you disagree with because that's the purpose, and corruption is defying that purpose.

 

The thing is, though, traditional purpose works both way- and Divine Justinia can still be called, with some basis, corrupt. Yes, it's true that the Seekers and Templars answer to the Divine by tradition- but it's also true that the Divine has traditionally upheld the Circles and not allowed their dissolution. Even without the Nevarra Accord, Justinia's decision to let the mages revolt- indeed, to enable them to do so- is a corruption of the traditional purpose and traditional relationship. Traditional purpose legitimacy doesn't just bind the lower subordinates- it binds the upper ranks as well, and when the top is corrupt the traditional legitimacy doesn't simply demand obediance- obedience is within the wider context of what the obedience is for, whatever the current norms are. Justinia might have been allow new norms to develop- Leliana certainly tries to create new norms- but at the time of the Seeker and Templar rebellion, there's no tradition for Justinia to appeal to.

 

The other bad thing about traditional purpose- at least as far as calling the Seekers corrupt goes- is that the original purpose doesn't really matter so long as the current reasons and traditions are reasoned. Tranquility is an established part of the Circles, legitimized by the mages themselves- enough so that, if Tevinter is a guide, they won't give it up if they could. Tranquility as a punishment is not a norm- not yet, and fully deserves to be fought back against- but the Tranquil Cure doesn't real resolve anything- the vast majority of Tranquil are Tranquil because mages wanted them to be. The Tranquil Cure is a political firecracker, but doesn't do much to make things better- it's not really an issue of purpose-corruption under traditional purpose. Similarly, even if the initial intent of the Circles as an anti-integration system is less relevant, the current tradition very much is- the traditional purpose of the Circles is Mage-Mundane separation, with Templars keeping it.

 

Mage independence and dissolution of the Circles is corruption under the traditional intent. It's also corruption under original intent. Which is perfectly fine- as long as you accept that 'corruption' doesn't inherently mean 'bad'- but it does make an awkward argument against the Seekers by any pro-mage independence perspective. A less corrupt Seeker organization should have taken a more even hand towards the mages- but ultimately, the only way the Seekers would have supported mage independence in any way, whether by action or inaction, would have been... corruption.


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#323
SgtSteel91

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Most cases of Blood Magic in Krikwall were the direct result of Meredith's hardliner stance oppressing Mages so much that they 'break' and lash out at others or try to run, are cornered, and resort to Blood Magic to fight back. If Meredith was ousted and the treatment of Mages in Krikwall was less severe (or no Circle and Templars), there would be less cases of Blood Magic.



#324
Dean_the_Young

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Most cases of Blood Magic in Krikwall were the direct result of Meredith's hardliner stance oppressing Mages so much that they 'break' and lash out at others or try to run, are cornered, and resort to Blood Magic to fight back. If Meredith was ousted and the treatment of Mages in Krikwall was less severe (or no Circle and Templars), there would be less cases of Blood Magic.

 

Chicken and egg- and missing the point. By the time Meredith's oppression can reasonably be claimed to validate and cause the problem of blood magic (her Act 3 insanity), the blood mages already exist. Once blood mages exist, removing Meredith doesn't resolve the problem because they're still blood mages even after Meredith leaves. And this isn't even touching on the blood mages who precede Meredith's insanity-driven crackdown- like Orisino, the First Enchanter, who was complicit with a maleficar for years.

 

Arguments about removing Meredith rely on removing her before the problem develops- but arguments to that invaribly rely on the meta-knowledge, rather than what she has and hasn't done at the time.

 

In Acts 1 and 2, when Meredith is in charge and has been for some time, she's neither creating problems or on the wrong side of what any 'impartial' Seeker would be looking. In fact, she's doing what the Seekers like (clamping down on corrupt Templars), and toeing the Chantry line (largely keeping the Templars as an organization out of the Qunari crisis, but prepared to respond if the Qunari move). And after Act 2, Mereidth is a Big Goddamn Hero for helping save the city from the Qunari- on top of providing order in the interim- and doubtless helping the Chantry's interests in the city as well.

 

Arguing the Seekers should have ousted Meredith rarely manages to answer when they should have done so- or on what grounds at that time.

 

And this assumes the Seekers even could- when a very real, significant problem in Kirkwall was that the Chantry had both permitted and encouraged the Templars to grow in influence and power to the point that when Meredith was a clear problem, she was also the most powerful person in the city, more powerful than her nominal boss.


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#325
thesuperdarkone2

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Chicken and egg- and missing the point. By the time Meredith's oppression can reasonably be claimed to validate and cause the problem of blood magic (her Act 3 insanity), the blood mages already exist. Once blood mages exist, removing Meredith doesn't resolve the problem because they're still blood mages even after Meredith leaves. And this isn't even touching on the blood mages who precede Meredith's insanity-driven crackdown- like Orisino, the First Enchanter, who was complicit with a maleficar for years.

 

Arguments about removing Meredith rely on removing her before the problem develops- but arguments to that invaribly rely on the meta-knowledge, rather than what she has and hasn't done at the time.

 

In Acts 1 and 2, when Meredith is in charge and has been for some time, she's neither creating problems or on the wrong side of what any 'impartial' Seeker would be looking. In fact, she's doing what the Seekers like (clamping down on corrupt Templars), and toeing the Chantry line (largely keeping the Templars as an organization out of the Qunari crisis, but prepared to respond if the Qunari move). And after Act 2, Mereidth is a Big Goddamn Hero for helping save the city from the Qunari- on top of providing order in the interim- and doubtless helping the Chantry's interests in the city as well.

 

Arguing the Seekers should have ousted Meredith rarely manages to answer when they should have done so- or on what grounds at that time.

 

And this assumes the Seekers even could- when a very real, significant problem in Kirkwall was that the Chantry had both permitted and encouraged the Templars to grow in influence and power to the point that when Meredith was a clear problem, she was also the most powerful person in the city, more powerful than her nominal boss.

and Meredith's death squads openly killing people in broad daylight helps how?