348 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

There are mothers in Redcliff who think Templars are too cruel. The healer you recruit for Inquisition tells you Templars attacked Redcliff and killed mage or none-mage blindly.

Connor is irrelevant, because he is biased for obvious reasons. I remember clearly that mages were quite welcome in Ferelden, and Redcliff was given to them as shelter. It could have been any city in Ferelden. 

The one most biased here appears to be you.

Connor actually experienced the rebellion, he actually saw doors shut in their faces and you are supposed to be the authority on what did or did not happen?

I can give you multiple sources within the mages themselves who admit that everyone is blaming them, I can give you multiple quests where we must save mages from mobs and your evidence is a couple of Mothers in Redcliff?

When we have already been told that Redcliff was the only place that opened their doors?

 

Congratulations, you have found pro-mage people on the one place we are told there are people who support mages.

 

BTW, did you know that everyone in Thedas worships the Stone? I mean, I have just come from Orzammar and everyone there did so I can extrapolate that everyone else does despite the fact there were these dwarves telling me virtually all humans worship the Maker.

 

 

Not that it was not evident since DA2 where Alistair was considering kicking out the Templar order from Ferelden for good.

Oh, he came to his senses and kicked out the mages for good.

 

 

Leliana NEVER says that unless you side with Templars. She suggests going for the mages instead of Templars before deciding. Bioware tends to put satisfying conversations after you make a decision to make it seem right. If you side with the mages, Leliana can't stop talking about how Templars suck and siding with the mages was the best choice. You know, her actual opinion, as its evident in her epilogue when she becomes divine.
 

Ok, there are two things wrong about this argument.

 

First, you are arguing that Bioware's writing is only their actual writing when you agree with it.

 

Second, when Leliana says that most people trust the Templars, she is expressing most people's opinions, not her own. So, her being pro-mage is irrelevant to the matter.

 

 

The annulment failed, no? 

The point was not whether the Templars killed every single mage. 

You were claiming the mages sucessfully rebelled and you were evidently wrong.

 

 

The Templars in Hinterlands are on even grounds with apostates.

The Templars and Apostates in the Hinterlands are offshoots of offshoots both.

 

 

 Which is why they couldn't really do anything to mages in two years.

They only defeated the mages to the point where they had no base or resources and had to rely entirely upon the willingness of a third party (Ferelden) to defend them. Hell, the Templars made the mages so absolutely terrified of them that they were to willing to betray Ferelden, abandon their goals of freedom to sell themselves into slavery rather than face them again.

 

And that is very badass.

 

By any definition of the word, the Templars won the war. If anything, their separation from the Chantry hurt the Chantry more since they were the ones all but begging the Templars to returned and the ones who ended up sucked punched in front of a crowd.

 

[Xilizhra]

By any definition of the word, the Templars won the war. If anything, their separation from the Chantry hurt the Chantry more since they were the ones all but begging the Templars to returned and the ones who ended up sucked punched in front of a crowd.

Pity that they wind up being utterly defeated and subsumed by one mage unless the Inquisition saves them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pity that they wind up being utterly defeated and subsumed by one mage unless the Inquisition saves them.

DId you just claim that Corypheus is "just" a mage? Because that is wilfully misleading, to downright decieving, since Corypheus is much much more than "just" a mage.

[Lulupab]

The one most biased here appears to be you.
Connor actually experienced the rebellion, he actually saw doors shut in their faces and you are supposed to be the authority on what did or did not happen?
I can give you multiple sources within the mages themselves who admit that everyone is blaming them, I can give you multiple quests where we must save mages from mobs and your evidence is a couple of Mothers in Redcliff?
When we have already been told that Redcliff was the only place that opened their doors?
 
Congratulations, you have found pro-mage people on the one place we are told there are people who support mages.
 
BTW, did you know that everyone in Thedas worships the Stone? I mean, I have just come from Orzammar and everyone there did so I can extrapolate that everyone else does despite the fact there were these dwarves telling me virtually all humans worship the Maker.

I'm not sure which part you are disagreeing with. The mages were in fact welcome in Ferelden. It was the only close thing they had to an ally and if I am any Judge, Redcliff was chosen to be their shelter because majority of this town were killed not long ago, so there was space. It could have been any city in Ferelden.

As for your other claims, whatever happened, happened after Alexius's time magic. Mages are in no Peril when Fiona meets you to invite to to Redcliff. Templars wouldn't dare to attack Redcliff and the actual raid that happened, could very well be staged by Alexius to scare Fiona into submission.
 

Oh, he came to his senses and kicked out the mages for good.

Templars were kicked before them. Therinfal redoubt is miles away from any Ferelden civilization.
 

Ok, there are two things wrong about this argument.
 
First, you are arguing that Bioware's writing is only their actual writing when you agree with it.
 
Second, when Leliana says that most people trust the Templars, she is expressing most people's opinions, not her own. So, her being pro-mage is irrelevant to the matter.

But she also believes there are enough people who support the mages to give them more rights. When she says the line you quoted, its too late to help the mages.
 

The point was not whether the Templars killed every single mage. 
You were claiming the mages sucessfully rebelled and you were evidently wrong.

They only defeated the mages to the point where they had no base or resources and had to rely entirely upon the willingness of a third party (Ferelden) to defend them. Hell, the Templars made the mages so absolutely terrified of them that they were to willing to betray Ferelden, abandon their goals of freedom to sell themselves into slavery rather than face them again.

Again there is no evidence of mages being in Peril before Alexius because Templars wouldn't attack Redcliff to anger the whole nation. Just because Ferelen is a "3rd party" doesn't mean mages lose. All the supplies, weapons and armor Templars have is funded by the Chantry. The whole existence of Templar order depends on 3rd party. If mages turned Ferelden to their favor, that's literally intrigue and politics, which can have more effect that armies in a war. SO yes, mages successfully rebelled because without Alexius Templars couldn't do anything to mages, as its evident that Mages were practically untouched by the Templars for 2 years because Ferelden would eat them alive.
 

By any definition of the word, the Templars won the war. If anything, their separation from the Chantry hurt the Chantry more since they were the ones all but begging the Templars to returned and the ones who ended up sucked punched in front of a crowd.

No if anything, mages outplayed the templars by getting a whole nation to their side. Because Templars would never attack Redcliff, and they actually never did. Not really. Templar order cannot exist on their own, who would fund them? Their few independent years came from remnants of chantry resources.

But this is moot, as the whole system was based on manipulating the whole population of Thedas by lies of the seekers and their puppets Templars. Thus the system failed and led to changes. IN NONE OF THE ENDINGS, mages get worse situations that previous circles. Its always better for them, only the scale of it is different. But Templars can be disbanded or become puppets to a mage or get stronger leashes. I think its clear who has "won" from the results. No matter what you choose, all future mages of south will have better lives and Templars have lost a lot of their power and influence. Both were goals of the rebellion.

[Kakistos_]

The annulment failed, no? The truth remains that Templars had over two years before Corypheus manipulated both sides. The Templars in Hinterlands are on even grounds with apostates.

 

Plus that was when Templar still had the resources of the Chantry. After the circles break, and Lambert died the order broke down and become much weaker and scattered. Which is why they couldn't really do anything to mages in two years. The Templars with resources of the Chantry could obliterate the mages in months. But that was not the case after the rebellion. Templars turned on each other, many went rogue, many left because what's "holy" about the Templars when they oppose the Chantry itself?

I disagree that the Templars would have obliterated the Mages. Sure, you could argue that they would have won but consider that during the process of Annulling a Circle, which as you mention doesn't always succeed, the Templars have the advantages of numbers, supplies, training, public support and the Circle Towers themselves which are essentially barrels in which to shoot. The Templars even know exactly what the Mages can throw at them because of their controlled and restricted education similar to how the Reapers guided the development of the technology of the organic races they harvest in ME.

 

And still with all of those advantages on their side Templars still suffer heavy casualties as they did in Darismuid and Kirkwall. The Templars may not have had the backing of the Chantry but both sides were getting resources from somewhere. I have no doubt that the Templars had a much easier time gaining resources for their war effort than the Mages and yet the Mages fought them for at least a year with no allies. Neither Cassandra or Divine Justinia saw that that coming to an end any time soon hence the Conclave and plans for the Inquisition. Some Codex entries even suggested that some Templars didn't see an end in sight. If I recall correctly the Apostates were winning in the Hinterlands. The Codex Entry found in the ruined Fort Connor, a renegade Templar base, paints the picture for us: "Eamon said proudly at the time that Fort Connor was "unbreakable by anything short of magic, and for that, thank the Maker we have templars." - Codex Entry Fort Connor

The Templars were clearly not enough to stop Magic from ravaging the fort. Corporal Vale also mentions that the Apostates were pushing the Templars back.

[Nixou]

I disagree that the Templars would have obliterated the Mages. Sure, you could argue that they would have won [...] And still with all of those advantages on their side Templars still suffer heavy casualties as they did in Darismuid and Kirkwall.

 

 

What we see here is the tail end of a generations long process:

While the Templars where united and enjoyed the official support of the Chantry and and nobility, they were undoubtedly the dominant force compared to the mages.

 

But several things happened:

• Generations of unchecked power turned them into oppressors
• Knowledge of the Templars' abuses slowly but surely trickled out of the circles
• Some people started connecting the dots regarding the transmission of magic and realized that since it's an hereditary trait but Tevinter Magisters did sprinkle bastard children all over Thedas during the centuries they ruled the continent, pretty much everyone in Thedas is descended from mages.

 

So attitudes toward magic and mages started to change: prejudice still existed and remained strong, but disgust toward the tales of abuses committed by Templars mixed with the realization that everyone was susceptible to have relatives becoming mages and ending up on said abuses' receiving end caused the number of mage sympathizers to raise, and as a result the Templars power started to vacillate.

 

We see this during Dragon Age 2 when Cullen admits that tales of Meredith's harsh treatments are fueling sympathy toward the mages and from the fact that Anders' underground railway relies on muggle sympathizers.

 

Add characters like the Divine or the Fereldan monarch(s) adopting more liberal attitude toward the mages, the Orlesian empress' fascination for the arcane leading her to give power and influence to mages in her court, the head of the council of Heralds quite openly consorting with Vivienne, and it's clear that support toward the Templars was eroding both among the people and the elite.

 

Like all corrupt law-enforcement institution, the Templar order reacted to criticism by doubling down on the bullying, which only exacerbated their loss of support, and when the order finally seceded from the Chantry, not every Templar was willing to follow Lucius. In other words, the Templars started the war at their weakest, which explains why the Mages lasted that long.

[Il Divo]

Not the point. I did say the typical skillset of a mage gives itself to being abused for crime. That will most likely be a problem in any society where the mageborn are free. However, that does not translate into "mages will always end up in power". Things that work in a one-on-one (or even one-on-three) situation in hidden alley fail to work if you're a ruler and highly visible. All you'll achieve with such displays is increasing the number of assassins targeting you - and some of them will even be mages and negate any advantage you might have for being a mage.​

 

 

My bad on the delayed response. Lost track of the thread.

 

Putting aside examples like Connor or the DA:A baroness which we've had multiple people bring up, I think you're underplaying the role Magic plays in terms of how someone might use those abilities to their advantage. Likewise in regards to the idea that their abilities will simply be "negated" by other Mages. It's the systematic cooperation of Mages in achieving power that's the issue.

 

Power disparity indicates that anything that further increases my influence relative to yours can work as a tool to keep you under my dominion. Saying "magic is irrelevant" is a bit like saying "money is irrelevant". Hence why I point out that all other things being equal, systematic abuse by a Mageocracy is far worse than systematic abuse by a more typical rule by ordinary nobles. It's worse too when we take into account that A) a single Mage is capable of large scale devastation, amplified by the number of Mages and that B ) lack of understanding/fear by the populace creates a sense that you can't know what to expect in dealing with such an opponent. A more typical corrupt ruler, while fear of death might be significant, you can at least understand pretty easily what a sword is and what he plans to do with it. Magic is a bit more terrifying on that spectrum.

 

It's the same reason why saying magic is "just a tool" doesn't work. Yeah, it's just a tool if someone is going to be a good citizen. But in the context of abuse, it has a far greater potential for destruction than virtually any other method currently available in Thedas.

[Il Divo]

She gave the order, yes.  And bears the responsibility.  But Empress Celene did not personally burn down an alienage.  

 

The Baroness killed every man, woman and child  in Blackmarsh all by her lonesome.

 

Exactly. Non-mages can in theory achieve the same level of destruction as a Mage, but it's going to come from ordinary means and involve a heck of a lot more effort. It requires more input (mobilization of resources) to achieve a given output (destruction).

 

 

​

[MisterJB]

I'm not sure which part you are disagreeing with. The mages were in fact welcome in Ferelden. It was the only close thing they had to an ally and if I am any Judge, Redcliff was chosen to be their shelter because majority of this town were killed not long ago, so there was space. It could have been any city in Ferelden.

Well, clearly you are a poor judge because your claims is that Redcliff, the village attacked by undead ten years ago is somehow the town in most need of repopulation in a country that was going through a Blight at the same time and the entire southern half fell to the Darkspawn.

 

Honestly, this could not possibly become any simpler. We ask Connor why are they in Redcliff, he says there was nowhere else, every other city closed their doors. This is corroborated by both other sources within the mage rebellion such as Fiona and Lysas as well as multiple quests where we prevent townspeople from lynching mages.

What exactly is your evidence to prove this false and that they could have been settled anywhere in Ferelden?

A couple of Mothers in Redcliff?

The very same place we are told was willing to shelter mages and you are trying to prove was not isolated in this belief?

 

If you want to prove there is water on Mars, stop bringing me water from the Atlantic Ocean.

 

 

Templars were kicked before them. Therinfal redoubt is miles away from any Ferelden civilization.

Therinfal Redoubt is in the Southron Hills.

 

 

 

But she also believes there are enough people who support the mages to give them more rights. When she says the line you quoted, its too late to help the mages.

1-Or she believes she can coerce people into accepting her reforms. This doesn't necessitate people supporting mages so much as people being afraid of Leliana.

 

2-Even if Leliana believed that, in the future, people could accept mages, this has no effect on the fact that, at the time the Inquisition seeks allies to close the Breach, she herself said people trust the Templars instead.

 

 

Again there is no evidence of mages being in Peril before Alexius because Templars wouldn't attack Redcliff to anger the whole nation. Just because Ferelen is a "3rd party" doesn't mean mages lose. All the supplies, weapons and armor Templars have is funded by the Chantry. The whole existence of Templar order depends on 3rd party. If mages turned Ferelden to their favor, that's literally intrigue and politics, which can have more effect that armies in a war. SO yes, mages successfully rebelled because without Alexius Templars couldn't do anything to mages, as its evident that Mages were practically untouched by the Templars for 2 years because Ferelden would eat them alive.

Except you were claiming that the mages sucessfully left the Circle towers. This started as argument about their conditions before their declaration of independence.

Now you're trying to use their situation at the beginning of DAI as proof their rebellion was a success. Not only is this changing the goalposts, the rebellion was not over at the time with their future being very much in question.

 

Bottom line, excerpts from Asunder proved your first claim wrong.

 

No if anything, mages outplayed the templars by getting a whole nation to their side. Because Templars would never attack Redcliff, and they actually never did. Not really. Templar order cannot exist on their own, who would fund them? Their few independent years came from remnants of chantry resources.

I'm not sure where this fixation with the sustainability of an independent Templar Order came from or how it is relevant.

Regardless, an independent Templars will be funded from the same sources that fund every other independent organization. Donations, holding land, providing services, etc.

Are we forgetting that the Silver Shield is a thing?

 

 

But this is moot, as the whole system was based on manipulating the whole population of Thedas by lies of the seekers and their puppets Templars. Thus the system failed and led to changes. IN NONE OF THE ENDINGS, mages get worse situations that previous circles. Its always better for them, only the scale of it is different. But Templars can be disbanded or become puppets to a mage or get stronger leashes. I think its clear who has "won" from the results. No matter what you choose, all future mages of south will have better lives and Templars have lost a lot of their power and influence. Both were goals of the rebellion.

Why, I was under the impression that the goals of the rebellion were independence and integration.

By DAI, they have accomplished the singular feat of being exiled from every nation in Southern Thedas thus making integration impossible and their continued existence is assured only through the protection of the Inquisition if they decide to side with them. Thus, making them not independent.

In fact, the mage rebellion's story is one of them surviving only by the protection of more powerful third parties; Ferelden, Tevinter and the Inquisition; with their fate being entirely in the hands of these parties, who have their own goals and ambitions, with Fiona's words having no authority whatsoever. Even their ultimate fate is entirely dependant on just who is chosen for Divine.

This is the very antithesis of independence.

 

You know, right now you remind me of South Park's "Canada on Strike" with the leaders of the strike holding up the cupons for Walmart that they were given as a means of saving face and claiming that this is a tremendous victory.

 

 

[Ieldra]

Exactly. Non-mages can in theory achieve the same level of destruction as a Mage, but it's going to come from ordinary means and involve a heck of a lot more effort. It requires more input (mobilization of resources) to achieve a given output (destruction).

...as long as technology hasn't caught up. Which it is about to do. Ask the qunari.

[Kakistos_]

 

What we see here is the tail end of a generations long process:

While the Templars where united and enjoyed the official support of the Chantry and and nobility, they were undoubtedly the dominant force compared to the mages.

 

But several things happened:

• Generations of unchecked power turned them into oppressors
• Knowledge of the Templars' abuses slowly but surely trickled out of the circles
• Some people started connecting the dots regarding the transmission of magic and realized that since it's an hereditary trait but Tevinter Magisters sprinkled bastard children all over Thedas during the centuries they ruled the continent, pretty much everyone in Thedas is descended from mages.

 

So attitudes toward magic and mages started to change: prejudice still existed and remained strong, but disgust toward the tales of abuses committed by Templars mixed with the realization that everyone was susceptible to have relatives becoming mages and ending up on said abuses' receiving end caused the number of mage sympathizers to raise, and as a result the Templars power started to vacillate.

 

We see this during Dragon Age 2 when Cullen admits that tales of Meredith's harsh treatments are fueling sympathy toward the mages and from the fact that Anders' underground railway relies on muggle sympathizers.

 

Add characters like the Divine or the Fereldan monarch(s) adopting more liberal attitude toward the mages, the Orlesian empress' fascination for the arcane leading her to give power and influence to mages in her court, the head of the council of Heralds quite openly consorting with Vivienne, and it's clear that support toward the Templars was eroding both among the people and the elite.

 

Like all corrupt law-enforcement institution, the Templar order reacted to criticism by doubling down on the bullying, which only exacerbated their loss of support, and when the order finally seceded from the Chantry, not every Templar was willing to follow Lucius. In other words, the Templars started the war at their weakest, which explains why the Mages lasted that long.

 

Neither force was at their peak. A number of Mages chose to stay in the Circles under the leadership of Vivienne while the majority of the Templars joined Lucius. The Templars also had vastly superior public support. The only place to offer the Mages any aid was Ferelden, a decision not without consequence that caused ire with allies and trading partners.

[EmperorSahlertz]

...as long as technology hasn't caught up. Which it is about to do. Ask the qunari.

Unless the Qunari are on the verge of developing an a-bomb or other "scorched earth" weapon (which would also need to be able to be easily build by an individual), then technology is most definitely NOT on the verge of catching up.

[Xilizhra]

Why, I was under the impression that the goals of the rebellion were independence and integration.

By DAI, they have accomplished the singular feat of being exiled from every nation in Southern Thedas thus making integration impossible and their continued existence is assured only through the protection of the Inquisition if they decide to side with them. Thus, making them not independent.

In fact, the mage rebellion's story is one of them surviving only by the protection of more powerful third parties; Ferelden, Tevinter and the Inquisition; with their fate being entirely in the hands of these parties, who have their own goals and ambitions, with Fiona's words having no authority whatsoever. Even their ultimate fate is entirely dependant on just who is chosen for Divine.

This is the very antithesis of independence.

If you read the codex entry, their goal was actually getting away from the abuses of the templars. The exact form that would take wasn't clearly outlined.

 

As for independence, eh. I personally don't care much about the process so long as freedom from the Circle system and the templars was achieved. And if one plays In Hushed Whispers, the mages are certainly better off than the templars, who were wiped out.

[Il Divo]

Unless the Qunari are on the verge of developing an a-bomb or other "scorched earth" weapon (which would also need to be able to be easily build by an individual), then technology is most definitely NOT on the verge of catching up.

 

Agreed. ​

[In Exile]

True, but that applies to any ruling elite. Also, I question the assumption that mages would tend to band together as mages, rather than by their varying interests. Why wouldn't there be, for any faction of supremacist mages, another equally strong one that proposes coexistence with the non-mageborn on a more equal basis?

Because of their inherent superiority. We can't find an IRL analogy anywhere near the same level because even something like superlative strength or intelligence wouldn't make one a demigod in the same way that magic would do it.

Mages could very well infight. It would be absurd to expect then not to infight. But they would still be a natural ruling class, even if mages divide themselves into different groups and by ideology.

[MisterJB]

I think I'm beginning to appreciate the Nilfgaardian approach towards policing mages.

Mages there are forced to study and serve the state in various positions which are adequate for their talents, they may even rise in rank if in the army or secret police. Other than that, they are granted every right afforded to other citizens.

 

And the slightest hint of dissension they are quartered in the street to serve as an example to any other mage that may think of defying his imperial majesty,  Emhyr var Emreis.

 

Here, have a visual.

 

[Lulupab]

Well, clearly you are a poor judge because your claims is that Redcliff, the village attacked by undead ten years ago is somehow the town in most need of repopulation in a country that was going through a Blight at the same time and the entire southern half fell to the Darkspawn.
 
Honestly, this could not possibly become any simpler. We ask Connor why are they in Redcliff, he says there was nowhere else, every other city closed their doors. This is corroborated by both other sources within the mage rebellion such as Fiona and Lysas as well as multiple quests where we prevent townspeople from lynching mages.
What exactly is your evidence to prove this false and that they could have been settled anywhere in Ferelden?
A couple of Mothers in Redcliff?
The very same place we are told was willing to shelter mages and you are trying to prove was not isolated in this belief?
 
If you want to prove there is water on Mars, stop bringing me water from the Atlantic Ocean.

If you have Alistair as sole ruler he talks about it more clearly, but its pointed out either way. Alistair says Redcliff was given to mages by Ferelden. Meaning Redcliff didn't kindly said "Mages, please come here". It was a decision of whole kingdom. Which says a lot anyhow.
 

Therinfal Redoubt is in the Southron Hills.

Its barely on the border of Ferelden. Not all of south east belongs to Ferelden you know. There are uncharted forests and lands such as Bericilian forest which does not belong to Ferelden. Therinfal redoubt is at the edge of border where if you go in that direction you won't find any sign of civilization. I think it says a lot about how welcome they are.
 

1-Or she believes she can coerce people into accepting her reforms. This doesn't necessitate people supporting mages so much as people being afraid of Leliana.
 
2-Even if Leliana believed that, in the future, people could accept mages, this has no effect on the fact that, at the time the Inquisition seeks allies to close the Breach, she herself said people trust the Templars instead.

Leliana will not do anything Justinia didn't intended to do, this is mentioned quite a few times by quite a few people, even Cassandra. The thing is she will wait around for people to kill her because of her reforms. Literally everyone in Thedas see Justinia as hero and she is probably the most renowned and respected divine of all time now, setting the example for all the divines after her.

Leliana disbands the Templar order no matter your decisions, so no. She has zero trust in them, judging her actions as the divine.
 

Except you were claiming that the mages sucessfully left the Circle towers. This started as argument about their conditions before their declaration of independence.
Now you're trying to use their situation at the beginning of DAI as proof their rebellion was a success. Not only is this changing the goalposts, the rebellion was not over at the time with their future being very much in question.
 
Bottom line, excerpts from Asunder proved your first claim wrong.

I've based that on the very codex from the game, in Which you import a Hawke who romanced an alive Anders. (the part where mages successfully rebelled, at least in some circles that Anders and Hawke could reach). And many sources report damages to both sides. But given people were already skeptical of the mages, Templars losing a lot of the respect they used to have is a much bigger blow to Templars, than it is to the mages. There are literally no objections to disbanding of Templars, because by then they are practically disgraced. But Vivienne for example can face a lot of resistance and instability if she goes too harsh on mages (which happens if you ally with mages and she becomes divine)
 

I'm not sure where this fixation with the sustainability of an independent Templar Order came from or how it is relevant.
Regardless, an independent Templars will be funded from the same sources that fund every other independent organization. Donations, holding land, providing services, etc.
Are we forgetting that the Silver Shield is a thing?

The goal of Fiona was autonomy at first, before everyone went into "bugger it all" mood. Autonomy is granted to mages in all epilogues. Independence is granted in all of them too, but in some of them its far greater than the others.

Lyrium will be a huge issue to get as an independent party. You can possibly get the money for it unless you raid villages or something. One of the reasons many Templars went "red" was because of lack of regular Lyrium.
 

Why, I was under the impression that the goals of the rebellion were independence and integration.
By DAI, they have accomplished the singular feat of being exiled from every nation in Southern Thedas thus making integration impossible and their continued existence is assured only through the protection of the Inquisition if they decide to side with them. Thus, making them not independent.
In fact, the mage rebellion's story is one of them surviving only by the protection of more powerful third parties; Ferelden, Tevinter and the Inquisition; with their fate being entirely in the hands of these parties, who have their own goals and ambitions, with Fiona's words having no authority whatsoever. Even their ultimate fate is entirely dependant on just who is chosen for Divine.
This is the very antithesis of independence.
 
You know, right now you remind me of South Park's "Canada on Strike" with the leaders of the strike holding up the cupons for Walmart that they were given as a means of saving face and claiming that this is a tremendous victory.

As I said the actual goal of rebellion was autonomy from Chantry and Templars, and that is granted to them in all of the endings. Independence is also granted in all of them, but Leliana and Cassandra do it far better than Vivienne. I've always seen Vivienne as failure as there is not even a hint of stability in any of her epilogues. Both mages and Templar resist her, people are skeptical of a mage divine etc... But it goes without saying that while she brings the circles back, again its clearly stated mages are much more free in them and that she has direct leash on Templars, making them become like Templars like tevinter. (on a side note, I found something amusing. When you fist recruit Vivienne, she ask about the mage Rebellion. If you blame the Templars, she actually approves, both in dialogue and actually approving. Good to know.)

Its revealed clearly that Templars rely on donations as well, aka "3rd party". Without the support, both parties are powerless. And it goes without saying that mages are far more useful than Templars, who are useless except when fighting mages. Templars helping closing the breach contradicted everything said about rifts and tear in codex of DAO and DA2 and it was simply there to balance the favor among both sides. So you bet mages can have more support from 3rd parties.

 

The rebellion was a war, and there are no real "winners" in wars given the losses both sides always suffer. There are only those who benefit more from the epilogue of the war. And that's definitely mages, not Templars. Its clear as day if you look at the epilogues of Inquisition, no matter the choices. Mages get the better bargain, its only the question of how much better, as its always better.

[EmperorSahlertz]

-snip-

The **** are you on about?

 

The Brecilian IS a part of Ferelden. It is not some independent state in the middle of Ferelden. Sure, it may be a savage and untamed place, but it is well within Ferelden's sovereignty.

 

And Therinfal Redoubt is NOT on the borders of the wilderness of the Korcari Wilds. It is simply situated remotely in the Fereldan coutnryside, because IT ISN'T A TEMPLAR FACILITY. It is a Seeker Fortress, which was abandonned in the Blessed Age, which the Templars during the war with the mages, chose to fortify themselves within. On the War Room map, it seems to be in the vicinity of South Reach, or more importantly within the SOuthron Hills, which is a region well within the Fereldan borders.

 

Lelianna doesn't disband the Templars. She actually NEVER does, in any of the epilogues. What does actually happen, is that she disbands the CIRCLES no matter what. However, the Templars only ever disband if you conscripted them into the Inquisition, in which case, after Corypheus is dealt with, they disband the Templars as a ceremonial gesture, and joins the Inquisition proper. But NEVER as a result of Leliana's actions.

 

And you KNOW that you are wrong, when you claim that the amges rebelled and got away unscathed, but now you are just being stubborn about it. EVERY single codex entry, source, and exposition piece in the games and expanded media, paints the very clear picture, that there was much fighting in ALL the Circles, and that the mages did not get away clean from any of them. In fact, it would appear that some of them were even Annulled before the mages got a chance to flee. So no, the mages did NOT "succesfully" clean house and got out.

 

And autonomy is most definitely NOT granted to mages in all epilogues. In fact, only if Cassandra or Leliana are Divine, and only if you allied yourself with the mages, are they granted autonomy. And if Vivienne is Divine, then even if you did ally with the mages, she destroys their attempted new independent college, and forces them back into the Circles. So in 2 out of 12 outcomes are the mages granted autonomy...

 

The funny thing about the Templar Order, is that it consists of the second, third and fourth sons and daughters of NOBLES. The Templar Order got all of the connections necesary to maintain an income through donations and land. The mages are mainly the sons and daughters of farmers and peasants. They do NOT have the connections necesary.

 

What is clear as day, is the fact that you do not have the slightest grip on what is actually going on in the epilogue slides....

[Lulupab]

The **** are you on about?
 
The Brecilian IS a part of Ferelden. It is not some independent state in the middle of Ferelden. Sure, it may be a savage and untamed place, but it is well within Ferelden's sovereignty.

I'd use the word loosely. Since Ferelden offers ZERO protections or services to anyone there. Some countries are close to frozen wastes of north, while they may claim borders, none cares about those places. Perfect place for a rogue order. Its only part of Ferelden, because why not? Its not like anyone else wants it.
 
And Therinfal Redoubt is NOT on the borders of the wilderness of the Korcari Wilds. It is simply situated remotely in the Fereldan coutnryside, because IT ISN'T A TEMPLAR FACILITY. It is a Seeker Fortress, which was abandonned in the Blessed Age, which the Templars during the war with the mages, chose to fortify themselves within. On the War Room map, it seems to be in the vicinity of South Reach, or more importantly within the SOuthron Hills, which is a region well within the Fereldan borders.

I'd use the word loosely. Since Ferelden offers ZERO protections or services to anyone there. Some countries are close to frozen wastes of north, while they may claim borders, none cares about those places. Perfect place for a rogue order, now shunned. Its only part of Ferelden, because why not? Its not like anyone else wants it.
 

Lelianna doesn't disband the Templars. She actually NEVER does, in any of the epilogues. What does actually happen, is that she disbands the CIRCLES no matter what. However, the Templars only ever disband if you conscripted them into the Inquisition, in which case, after Corypheus is dealt with, they disband the Templars as a ceremonial gesture, and joins the Inquisition proper. But NEVER as a result of Leliana's actions.

So tell me, what will the Templars do? When there are no circles and the college DOES NOT welcome them by any means. The Chantry will not provide anything for them either. Leliana does not simply disband the circles, she disbands the system of circles. And its irrelevant as to who you sided with, or how you sided with them. She always does that. Disbanding the circles is the first thing she does regardless of whether the inquisition helped the mages or Templars.
 
So the college of Enchanters always happens with Leliana, and there is no place for Templaris in it.
 

And you KNOW that you are wrong, when you claim that the amges rebelled and got away unscathed, but now you are just being stubborn about it. EVERY single codex entry, source, and exposition piece in the games and expanded media, paints the very clear picture, that there was much fighting in ALL the Circles, and that the mages did not get away clean from any of them. In fact, it would appear that some of them were even Annulled before the mages got a chance to flee. So no, the mages did NOT "succesfully" clean house and got out.

I don't remember using the word "unscathed". The mages wanted to leave the circles by force, and they did. Of course people died in the process. So say if 50% of prisoners escape from a prison, would you not call it a "successful prison break? I thought so.
 

And autonomy is most definitely NOT granted to mages in all epilogues. In fact, only if Cassandra or Leliana are Divine, and only if you allied yourself with the mages, are they granted autonomy. And if Vivienne is Divine, then even if you did ally with the mages, she destroys their attempted new independent college, and forces them back into the Circles. So in 2 out of 12 outcomes are the mages granted autonomy...

Actually you are wrong.

Leliana allows mages to govern themselves regardless of any choices you make. so that's 1/3 of all epilogues.

Cassandra's epilogue differs a lot between choices, but her intention remains the same. The mages are independent either in college or bright hand if you sided with them, either alliance or conscription. And if you sided with Templars, while the circles are back, they mages still govern themselves. The epilogue simply mentions a "reformed circle" being restored, but you have to refer to what Cassandra says she will do if she becomes divine.

These are images of Cassandra's plans for mages and Templars in the reformed circle. BTW this is from a playthrough sided with Templars, but I do believe the conversation is the same.
 

Spoiler

 
As for Vivienne, its CLEARLY stated in the epilogue that mages are much more free in the circles and the circles actually thrive. Vivienne has actually made Templars her puppets with a strong leash. Hence is why Templars rebel against her if you ally with Templars.
 
So yes, as you can see mages have autonomy in ALL OF THE EPILOGUES. Specially from Templars, who are now absolutely irrelevant in governing mages.

 

The funny thing about the Templar Order, is that it consists of the second, third and fourth sons and daughters of NOBLES. The Templar Order got all of the connections necesary to maintain an income through donations and land. The mages are mainly the sons and daughters of farmers and peasants. They do NOT have the connections necesary.
 
What is clear as day, is the fact that you do not have the slightest grip on what is actually going on in the epilogue slides....

Yet the events of the game opposes this as mages are able to actually get more 3rd party support than Templars, and lack of Lyrium is a serious problem within the order, which as I said was one of the reasons many went red.

[Steelcan]

it speaks volumes for Ferelden's ability to keep the mages safe that the templars were able to march across half of Ferelden, occupy a massive fortress, and muster enough troops to march back across it all to attack another place all presumably without any interference from the crown.  That means they were unwilling to actually defend the mages, or they were incapable of it.

[In Exile]

it speaks volumes for Ferelden's ability to keep the mages safe that the templars were able to march across half of Ferelden, occupy a massive fortress, and muster enough troops to march back across it all to attack another place all presumably without any interference from the crown. That means they were unwilling to actually defend the mages, or they were incapable of it.

I think we need to be careful when it comes to verisimilitude and Bioware's general inability to write a world.

Arl Howe managed to convince his entire fiefdom to participate in open treason with no allies or support against the Crown according to Bioware, so let's avoid their take on medieval politics from the context.

[Xilizhra]

it speaks volumes for Ferelden's ability to keep the mages safe that the templars were able to march across half of Ferelden, occupy a massive fortress, and muster enough troops to march back across it all to attack another place all presumably without any interference from the crown.  That means they were unwilling to actually defend the mages, or they were incapable of it.

I didn't take you for an advocate for Fiona's decision to ally with Tevinter.

[actionhero112]

I don't think mages should rule any country ever. The pressures of governing are heavy, and the monarchs of thedas have to be ruling for a long time. It could easily (and has) lead to abuse. Also they should never fight in any country's war for obvious reasons, only against threats that face the entire continent.

 

I also don't think Templars should exist. Lyrium addiction is a huge ethical hazard for me. Mages should train skilled and trustworthy mages to control unauthorized blood magic users and fight maleficarum. We know that mages have tools like the litany to resist blood magic, so why not have mages police themselves. 

 

I also think that while ideally we would have a mage school in every town, a safe distance away from normal people, right now it's just impractical. We should continue to move young and inexperienced mages to towers so they can be instructed in magic. Families should be given visitation rights however, to keep runaways to a minimum. Harrowings should be done away with, (honestly I think they do more harm than good) and an alternate method should be devised to ensure an initiate's willpower against possession that isn't as deadly. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

People are seriously doubting that Leliana disbands the Templars? Have any of you actually seen the templar endings if Leliana is Divine?

[Hazegurl]

Leliana does not disband the Templars.  It's the Templars who decide their own future and it has far more to do with the Inquisitor's actions than Leliana.  As a matter of fact, the Templars can become reformed and still operate while she is Divine.

 

Alliance with Templars:

 

Cullen cured of Lyrium addiction

Seekers rebuilt

This frees many to join the Seekers of Truth under [Cassandra/the Divine] – a renewed Order dedicated to justice for all.

Seekers not rebuilt

Leliana is Divine

This allows them to leave and reform the Templar Order to truly serve the people, independent of outside control.

 

Disbanded Leliana is Divine They elect to remain with the Inquisition, unanimously and formally disbanding the Templar Order forever

Cullen not cured of Lyrium Addiction

 

Alliance Leliana is Divine Some leave, joining mercenary bands or the ranks of the Imperial army. Most remain.  Those who remain under the watchful eye of Commander Cullen become the core of the Inquisitor's personal guard.

 

Disbanded

Leliana is Divine

In the end, they unanimously elect to remain. The old Templar Order is formally disbanded. Under the watchful eye of Commander Cullen, these men and women form the core of the Inquisition's strength for years to come.

 

 

And for those who still doubt how badly the Mages were losing.

 

Solas(After we fought some Templars in the Hinerlands): "It must have been a while before they fought a Mage of any talent."

 

It seems like the Templars own skills were waning because of how easy it was for them to beat the mages.

 

And no, the Templars were not kicked out of Fereldan and as far as I remember, no one asked the Templars or the Inquisition to pay a fine for the war.  Not only were the Mages kicked out of a country but were obligated to pay a fine for the mess they caused.