348 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Unless the Qunari are on the verge of developing an a-bomb or other "scorched earth" weapon (which would also need to be able to be easily build by an individual), then technology is most definitely NOT on the verge of catching up.

 

They had a poison gas that took down an entire street, which was used as a decoy to the explosives, they have gunpowder and cannons, they have collars that can control their mages by an Averraad. The explosions Dwarken in Awakening was working on got him several Qunari assassins after him because he was coming close to perfecting something the Qunari have a monopoly on. 

 

I'd say, yes, their technology is coming close to matching magic in what they can do in a single instant. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana does not disband the Templars.  It's the Templars who decide their own future and it has far more to do with the Inquisitor's actions than Leliana.  As a matter of fact, the Templars can become reformed and still operate while she is Divine.

 

Alliance with Templars:

 

Cullen cured of Lyrium addiction

Seekers rebuilt

This frees many to join the Seekers of Truth under [Cassandra/the Divine] – a renewed Order dedicated to justice for all.

Seekers not rebuilt

Leliana is Divine

This allows them to leave and reform the Templar Order to truly serve the people, independent of outside control.

 

Disbanded Leliana is Divine They elect to remain with the Inquisition, unanimously and formally disbanding the Templar Order forever

Cullen not cured of Lyrium Addiction

 

Alliance Leliana is Divine Some leave, joining mercenary bands or the ranks of the Imperial army. Most remain.  Those who remain under the watchful eye of Commander Cullen become the core of the Inquisitor's personal guard.

 

Disbanded

Leliana is Divine

In the end, they unanimously elect to remain. The old Templar Order is formally disbanded. Under the watchful eye of Commander Cullen, these men and women form the core of the Inquisition's strength for years to come.

Those endings make it clear that Leliana disbands the Templars. If that wasn't the case, why does an allied templar order remain independent instead of returning to the Chantry like it does with Cass or Viv?

 

The templars NEVER return to the Chantry if Leliana is divine. At best, they only serve as an INDEPENDENT order like the Inquisition. They are disbanded under Leliana and therefore have no role in the Chantry if she is Divine. Why else do even allied templars operate independently.

[Wulfram]

The Chantry washing their hands of the Order isn't the same as disbanding it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The Chantry washing their hands of the Order isn't the same as disbanding it.

If that was the case, why does allying with them with Leliana as Divine result in them either joining mercs and the orlesian army or staying with the Inquisition? That pretty much confirms disbanding.

[Wulfram]

Leliana's reforms do deprive the Templars of much of their existing purpose, which I assume is why they don't choose to stick around except in favourable circumstances (allied with the Inquisition, Cullen cured of addiction).

[Hazegurl]

Those endings make it clear that Leliana disbands the Templars. If that wasn't the case, why does an allied templar order remain independent instead of returning to the Chantry like it does with Cass or Viv?

 

The templars NEVER return to the Chantry if Leliana is divine. At best, they only serve as an INDEPENDENT order like the Inquisition. They are disbanded under Leliana and therefore have no role in the Chantry if she is Divine. Why else do even allied templars operate independently.

Leliana doesn't disband the order, she just does not use them and her reforms doesn't give them a reason to return to the way things used to be, leaving them free to decide what they want whereas Cass and Vivi actively use the order.  Remember, that the Templars had already broken away from the Chantry BEFORE a new Divine is ever chosen.  It's just a matter of whether or not the Templars wish to return and/or the new Divine wants them to.  There is also an ending where the Templars refuse to work with Vivienne causing her to create her own order. 

 

Cassandra is Divine They rejoin the Templar Order under the new Divine – on the condition that her leash will not be reattached. Vivienne is Divine They refuse to join the reformed Templar Order under a mage Divine, instead forming a new knightly order called the Silver Shield.   Cassandra or Vivienne is Divine Some return to the Templar Order under the new Divine, but the rest elect to shed their allegiance forever.

 

In other words, the Templars have total freedom to decide what they want to do in each ending no matter who is Divine.  None of them can force the Templars to do anything, that includes disbanding them.  This is why the Templar ending is based on multiple conditions at the end of the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

They had a poison gas that took down an entire street, which was used as a decoy to the explosives, they have gunpowder and cannons, they have collars that can control their mages by an Averraad. The explosions Dwarken in Awakening was working on got him several Qunari assassins after him because he was coming close to perfecting something the Qunari have a monopoly on. 

 

I'd say, yes, their technology is coming close to matching magic in what they can do in a single instant. 

 

If magic in Dragon Age was just a matter of fireballs and smelly farts, it might- but magic in Dragon Age is not so simple. Magic in dragon age creates monsters, bends physics, and allows various degrees of mental influence and interferance- and this is without the disregard to the limits of thermodynamics.

18th century chemistry really doesn't remove the capability gap- especially when mages are better posed to reap the benefits of those technologies that do simulate part of what magic can do. Magic can make them far more effective. The bane of chemical/gas warfare in reality has been both the indiscriminate and the uncontrolled nature of it: we mere mundanes can't control the winds to direct it. Mages can. And yeah, creating explosives is cool- but a mage can make those bombs walk.

[Steelcan]

I didn't take you for an advocate for Fiona's decision to ally with Tevinter.

no, they should have gone back to the Chantry and begged them to take them back before siding with Tevinter

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana doesn't disband the order, she just does not use them and her reforms doesn't give them a reason to return to the way things used to be, leaving them free to decide what they want whereas Cass and Vivi actively use the order.  Remember, that the Templars had already broken away from the Chantry BEFORE a new Divine is ever chosen.  It's just a matter of whether or not the Templars wish to return and/or the new Divine wants them to.  There is also an ending where the Templars refuse to work with Vivienne causing her to create her own order. 

 

Cassandra is Divine They rejoin the Templar Order under the new Divine – on the condition that her leash will not be reattached. Vivienne is Divine They refuse to join the reformed Templar Order under a mage Divine, instead forming a new knightly order called the Silver Shield.   Cassandra or Vivienne is Divine Some return to the Templar Order under the new Divine, but the rest elect to shed their allegiance forever.

 

In other words, the Templars have total freedom to decide what they want to do in each ending no matter who is Divine.  None of them can force the Templars to do anything, that includes disbanding them.  This is why the Templar ending is based on multiple conditions at the end of the game.

And the templars are disbanded if you sided with the mages. Divine Leliana doesn't plan on making more templars so they are pretty much disbanded. 

[In Exile]

The idea of a mundane counterbalance to mages is important in part to prevent the hysteria that will result from the natural advantages that accrue to mages.

The other practical aspect of mage rulership is the usual overlap in fantasy between intellectual acumen and magic. Mages are usually portrayed as scholars and intellectuals, and even settings that try to place magic in another box (as another talent) can't escape from making magic a thing of study.

So what you wind up with is a group of people for whom a natural indicia of IRL power and status accrued (intelligence), who have a natural means quite apart from intelligence to accrue wealth (magic) and who are - by our standards - effectively demi-gods.

This is why mages are, ultimately, naturally adept leaders. I'm not sure a tribal society like the Avar are a good counter example. Apart from the fact we have a counter-example to them vis-a-vis tribal mageocracy (the Dalish), the Avar don't have much of a government to speak of in the traditional sense. They have a nominal leader, but their mages are in positions of leadership - in fact they are in positions of natural leadership as mages solely in virtue of their magehood. It is the same with the Seers and the Rivani. The precondition to being a Seer is being a mage. Not every mage can be one, but no mundane can be one. To sum this point up, even the counterexamples are those societies that have leadership positions reserved exclusively for mages in virtue of them being mages.

[Iakus]

They had a poison gas that took down an entire street, which was used as a decoy to the explosives, they have gunpowder and cannons, they have collars that can control their mages by an Averraad. The explosions Dwarken in Awakening was working on got him several Qunari assassins after him because he was coming close to perfecting something the Qunari have a monopoly on. 

 

I'd say, yes, their technology is coming close to matching magic in what they can do in a single instant. 

 

I'd say the technology's already on par.  Even with all the Circles of Magi working together, it took nearly a century to beat back the Qunari the last time they invaded.  Nothing short of a Blight really compared.  Trained mages were the only real advantage Thedas had.

[Hazegurl]

And the templars are disbanded if you sided with the mages. Divine Leliana doesn't plan on making more templars so they are pretty much disbanded. 

 What the heck are you talking about? If you side with the Mages some of the Templars are absorbed into the Inquisition and most of them are freaking dead.  The Templar Order is pretty much gone due to the Inquisitor's decision, so there is nothing for Leliana to disband. Leliana simply doesn't need to create new Templars because she disbanded the Circles.

[In Exile]

What the heck are you talking about? If you side with the Mages some of the Templars are absorbed into the Inquisition and most of them are freaking dead. The Templar Order is pretty much gone due to the Inquisitor's decision, so there is nothing for Leliana to disband. Leliana simply doesn't need to create new Templars because she disbanded the Circles.

It's never really clear how many templars the Inquisitor saves at Therinfall to me. Because while you do turn the tables on the ambush, it kind of doesn't make sense - if the red templars didn't have the numbers to infect the rank and file by force, how does the scheme work?

I suppose the logic is that if the red templars wipe out the good officers (e.g. Barras) the rank and file will unthinkingly take up the red lyrium as they are taught to ingest whatever they're given, but that would suggest most of the templars didn't die at Therinfall but rather were (unknowingly) converted.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They had a poison gas that took down an entire street, which was used as a decoy to the explosives, they have gunpowder and cannons, they have collars that can control their mages by an Averraad. The explosions Dwarken in Awakening was working on got him several Qunari assassins after him because he was coming close to perfecting something the Qunari have a monopoly on. 

 

I'd say, yes, their technology is coming close to matching magic in what they can do in a single instant. 

Hardly. Saar-Qamek is obviously not easily manufactured, and gunpowder certainly do NOT make an entire region uninhabitable for a lifetime (Saar-Qamek doesn't either for that matter).

[Hazegurl]

The Red Templars were doing most of their conversions behind everyone's back then proceeded to kill off the Templar leaders and officers in one go.  Based on how Champions of the Just is set up.  It seems like the leaders were all separated and ambushed individually.  But the IQ's presence for the meeting keeps Barris and some of the others together.  I'm guessing that without the IQ's visit to look forward to, most of them were scattered and killed leaving the rest to take the red lyrium offered.  They were also keeping the clean Lyrium locked away so if anything, I think many of them took the red lyrium because their addiction took hold and they accepted whatever was offered.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Those endings make it clear that Leliana disbands the Templars. If that wasn't the case, why does an allied templar order remain independent instead of returning to the Chantry like it does with Cass or Viv?

 

The templars NEVER return to the Chantry if Leliana is divine. At best, they only serve as an INDEPENDENT order like the Inquisition. They are disbanded under Leliana and therefore have no role in the Chantry if she is Divine. Why else do even allied templars operate independently.

You understand that they don't have to return to the Chantry, to continue being Templars? Pretty much the ONLY times the Templars cease to exists, are if you didn't go to Therinfal Redoubt, or if you conscripted them. And in ALL the cases of conscription, it is the Templar's own choice to disband, not Leliana. The ONLY thing Leliana disbands are the Circles.

[In Exile]

The Red Templars were doing most of their conversions behind everyone's back then proceeded to kill off the Templar leaders and officers in one go. Based on how Champions of the Just is set up. It seems like the leaders were all separated and ambushed individually. But the IQ's presence for the meeting keeps Barris and some of the others together. I'm guessing that without the IQ's visit to look forward to, most of them were scattered and killed leaving the rest to take the red lyrium offered. They were also keeping the clean Lyrium locked away so if anything, I think many of them took the red lyrium because their addiction took hold and they accepted whatever was offered.

Wouldn't that mean most of the order is alive? Or do you just treat those converted to red templars as basically dead, since that's ultimately the end game of their progressively worsening infection?

[Hazegurl]

Wouldn't that mean most of the order is alive? Or do you just treat those converted to red templars as basically dead, since that's ultimately the end game of their progressively worsening infection?

No, Red Templars are pretty much dead because the point of the red lyrium is to corrupt them and make them into Cory's minions. The Templar Order essentially dies at Therinfall if the IQ is not there.  They can't be saved.

[In Exile]

No, Red Templars are pretty much dead because the point of the red lyrium is to corrupt them and make them into Cory's minions. The Templar Order essentially dies at Therinfall if the IQ is not there.  They can't be saved.

 

Thanks for the answers. Ultimately I just prefer the tone set by In Hushed Whispers for the rest of the game, which is why I've only seen the quest once (despite it IMO being the superior quest). 

[Hazegurl]

No prob! I love Champions of the Just and Calpernia is awesome. It's my canon but I did Hushed Whispers more because of Dorian.  The things I do for more Dorian content. *sigh* lol!

[The Baconer]

It's never really clear how many templars the Inquisitor saves at Therinfall to me. 

 

Probably a fraction of their original host. 90% of the Templars who initially hunker down in the main hall are slaughtered immediately after you depart. 

[Hazegurl]

You save enough for them to become a significant and powerful force of the Inquisition.  Game play really doesn't apply.

[Lulupab]

Well Leliana disbands the system of circles, meaning there is no place for Templars in anything regarding politics, mages or anything of the sort. If Cullen no longer uses Lyrium, as stated in epilogue many Templars go through the same process and stay with the Inquisition. This is like unofficial disbanding, its known that with enough effort Lyrium addiction can be fought. There is no work for them, no official work anyhow, so why not just stop being a Templar?

 

Its pretty much canon that Lyrium messes with your mind, and at the very least clouds your judgment, makes you paranoid for no reason, and can be much worse. Meanwhile the people working in law enforcement or legals cannot even drink alcohol. I'm saying a big no to junkie police force. I don't care if they are independent or whatever, I'm not letting people on highroad to insanity police anything. Yes become an independent force, paid like mercenaries to hunt down dangerous mage fugitives, but you are not policing anything. kthxbye. /endrant

[The Baconer]

You save enough for them to become a significant and powerful force of the Inquisition.  Game play really doesn't apply.

 

Which is still entirely possible despite it being a fraction of their original size, especially with how big the Inquisition is at that point. I didn't really see it as a "game play" aspect anyway, it seemed mostly atmospheric and gave us a good idea of how terrifying the Red Templars are in combat. 

[Lulupab]

Which is still entirely possible despite it being a fraction of their original size, especially with how big the Inquisition is at that point. I didn't really see it as a "game play" aspect anyway, it seemed mostly atmospheric and gave us a good idea of how terrifying the Red Templars are in combat. 

 

Some people say Champions of the Just is better, its an opinion. But the fact that Red Templars are far better enemies that Venatori is simply a fact.