22 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Qun00]

Call me crazy, but Justice didn't seem particularly different before.

0:35

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

Yes he did.

[Kantr]

Oh wow, that changes things.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Especially when you compare him to how he was before:

 

 

Listen to what he says to Velanna around the 16 minute mark.

[Reznore57]

No Anders isn't responsible for Justice corruption.

Anders is a human with feelings , yeah maybe bad feelings...but that's perfectly normal.

 

Spirits getting "corrupted" are not human's fault , human are going to have emotions no matter what , anger , desire , rage , fear , despair , whatever ...perfectly normal .

Humans can't control those emotions , you're going to have them , it's what you do that matters.

Mortals and spirits are not really compatible .

[Qun00]

 
Yes he did.

Bottom line is, Justice was the first to bring up the idea that Anders should take a violent approach to this. "Strike a blow against your oppressors".

It all started with him.

Especially when you compare him to how he was before:

https://www.youtube....h?v=WOJ9md_Nbco

Listen to what he says to Velanna around the 16 minute mark.

In Dragon Age 2 he also believes that both parties deserve retribution when they harm one another.

5:16

https://youtu.be/e1079Ghq_wU

Again, not that different.

[andy6915]

Not entirely, no. Kirkwall itself had something to do with it. The entire city is a massive blood magic circle, the city itself is meant to draw out the worst in everyone on purpose. Add to the the fact that  the fact that Corypheus is nearby and is speculated to have been somewhat behind how nutty of a city Kirkwall is, and... Yeah. Even friendly spirits will be very easily corrupted into demons in that city. If Anders had lived outside the city in a camp or something, Justice would likely have stayed true to himself. Anders anger was certainly part of it, no question. But Justice wouldn't have jumped so far down the slippery slope like that without Kirkwall driving him mad.

 

Check the codexes out-

 

http://dragonage.wik...gma_of_Kirkwall

 

http://dragonage.wik...ons_on_Kirkwall

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Bottom line is, Justice was the first to bring up the idea that Anders should take a violent approach to this. "Strike a blow against your oppressors".

It all started with him.

In Dragon Age 2 he also believes that both parties deserve retribution when they harm one another.

5:16



Again, not that different.

 

It's completely different. The very thing he condemns Velanna for was  deciding that all humanity was guilty by association, because one can only be responsible for your own actions. In DA 2 he has embraced this concept wholesale and taken it further to a ridiculous extreme. 

 

If The Warden-Commander decides they are going to purge Amaranthine he says "Reconsider, I beg you" because he cannot abide by the deaths of innocents, even for the greater good. In DA 2 Anders says "There is no-one he wouldn't kill to achieve mage freedom." I think if you romance him he even mentions "drowning Kirkwall in blood."

[Lazarillo]

It's completely different. The very thing he condemns Velanna for was  deciding that all humanity was guilty by association, because one can only be responsible for your own actions. In DA 2 he has embraced this concept wholesale and taken it further to a ridiculous extreme.

 

On the other hand, Justice also basically considers all Darkspawn evil, and even when confronted with the Architect wanting to change things, he lashes out against the idea so much that he can even turn against you, depending on your choices.  I think the key is in who he's possessing...in Awakening, he's in the body and (decaying) brain of a Grey Warden, so he sees the Darkspawn as the "bad guys" who deserve to be justice-d.  In DA2, he is being influenced by the mind of Anders, who, due to his own oppression, saw all Templars as the "bad guys" instead.  So while merging with Anders did redirect Justice, I don't really thing the spirit itself was ever really corrupted from its original purpose.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Templars and darkspawn are nothing alike. Templars aren't inherently destructive to all life. They can't corrupt people with a touch and there has never been a blight of templars. He's also not filled with uncontrollable rage towards darkspawn. If anything the dilemma of Amaranthine vs Vigil's Keep also demonstrates the difference. He still doesn't approve of killing innocents to defeat the darkspawn in Awakening, in DA 2 he's willing to sacrifice innocents (even the very people he wants to liberate) to get what he wants. 

[Sah291]

I don't think they corrupted each other, as such...it's just that....Justice was like a hyper templar to begin with. He's a force of law and order. Rule based, objective morality, etc. When we first meet him in the fade he is trying to help villagers overthrow a power hungry blood mage. The fact he ended up possessing a rebel mage with a habit for escaping the circle, and then ends up fighting actual templars on behalf of mages, is ironic...but he still retains a lot of his original views about blood magic, demons, law, etc. The result was a person with a lot of new and mixed up ideas, some really interesting, and some really contradictory...

[Toxicity]

Justice was sort of corrupt from the start, if you ask me. It wanted Justice (obviously), but there can be no justice in the world without other consequences, it will be a never ending cycle which will only lead to more chaos. I doubt Anders would consciously put a mage in harms way, or hurt them unless they were possessed or performing blood magic (still, demons). Anders helps mages, Justice hurts anyone who gets in the way of setting the mages to freedom. But it's hard to say if Anders would actually hurt a Templar as himself, since as I recall, Justice always came out to play when it involved Templars gone bad.
Edit: It wouldn't be surprising if he had caused it though, he said so himself-- he was full of rage which could have altered the spirits demeanor. 

 

vvvv

[diaspora2k5]

Solas says that Spirits become demons when twisted from their original purpose. Justice being house in Anders and being- (as Anders himself said) exposed to all of his rage probably is what twisted him into being a Rage demon by the name of vengeance.

 

edit: I mean there's the whole "spirits perverted by their desires" thing too. At the end of the day it seems like he was an abomination possessed by a rage demon that was once a spirit of justice and went on a homicidal terrorist rampage. Such is life.

[Fylimar]

I agree with andy6915: After I found the 'Enigma of Kirkwall' pieces, I wondered, if some things might simply not have happen in another city. Like Justice becoming Vengeance. I mean, Anders loved his freedom, but as he confessed to Isabella, he was selfish about it and didn't want to fight, because it meant hard work. There could have been worse people for Justice to find as a host. So I guess, if Anders and Justice would have lived elsewhere, it would never have escalated like that. That's one of the reasons, I would like to know, how Anders behaved outside Kirkwall after the end of DA2. Maybe it would get easier for him again or maybe he (or they - if you see Justice as a separate being still) is (are) beyond fixing. The amount of blood mages, serial killers, abominations, sadistic templars, the stoic ARishok loosing his temper so completely... are all signs, that something is very wrong. I was almost reliefed, when I found the Enigma pieces, at least now one has an expalnation for a lot of things, that went wrong in the city.

[Cyberpunk]

I think it was Justice/Vengeance who changed Anders and also a little bit of vice versa.

 

Fun fact: Velanna was supposed to be the returning party member who merged with Justice. It would have made more sense in retrospect. But we already had a Dalish mage in Merrill. 

[Jaison1986]

I think it was Justice/Vengeance who changed Anders and also a little bit of vice versa.

 

Fun fact: Velanna was supposed to be the returning party member who merged with Justice. It would have made more sense in retrospect. But we already had a Dalish mage in Merrill. 

 

Not really, considering Velanna is disgusted by the concept of being possessed by Justice if she died. I don't think she would ever accept his offer to merge. It makes sense that they scratched the idea of Velanna being Justice's host.

[Illegitimus]

No Anders isn't responsible for Justice corruption.

Anders is a human with feelings , yeah maybe bad feelings...but that's perfectly normal.

 

Spirits getting "corrupted" are not human's fault , human are going to have emotions no matter what , anger , desire , rage , fear , despair , whatever ...perfectly normal .

Humans can't control those emotions , you're going to have them , it's what you do that matters.

Mortals and spirits are not really compatible .

 

The spirit that joined up with Wynne didn't go sour.  

[Cyberpunk]

Not really, considering Velanna is disgusted by the concept of being possessed by Justice if she died. I don't think she would ever accept his offer to merge. It makes sense that they scratched the idea of Velanna being Justice's host.

 

Yeah but her merging with Justice would be consistent with his transformation into Vengeance. Anders wasn't so keen on possession in Awakening either.

[Fylimar]

The spirit that joined up with Wynne didn't go sour.  

 

Yeah, but Wynne did not live in Kirkwall.

[renfrees]

Yeah but her merging with Justice would be consistent with his transformation into Vengeance. Anders wasn't so keen on possession in Awakening either.

Considering her zealotry and hatred for shems, I'd say their transformation would've taken much less time. Anders was more moderate in his views at the time of DA:A.

[diaspora2k5]

Yeah, but Wynne did not live in Kirkwall.

More accurately, Wynne didn't have an undercurrent of anger inside her. Anders himself admits that his rage twisted justice.

[KaiserShep]

If Anders became a willing host for a spirit, then it would totally be his fault. I'm pretty sure that Wynne didn't actually choose to become a host herself. 

[Lady Artifice]

Like most of these conundrums, the writers are designing the Anders/Justice questions to defy simplification. Justice was altered by Anders' resentment and rage, and then Anders was altered by the same feelings in Justice. They're too indivisible to divide the blame between them.