12 réponses à ce sujet

[actionhero112]

Which do you guys prefer?

 

Personally I prefer metal for the stagger on being hit, but I can see how the catch all stat of magic defense can be appealing. 

[PapaCharlie9]

Leather.

 

Oh, you didn't ask that. I still say Leather.

 

Between cloth/metal, it depends on the class. Warrior and Rogue I'll take metal, Mage I'll take cloth.

 

I also go by GhoXen's crafting priorities:

 

Assumptions: 

• Weapon damage 150; enemy armor 50. Existing stats: 10% Attack, 0% AP, 40% Crit Dmg Bonus, 25% Flanking Dmg, 10% Crit Chance.
• A well-balanced party, with removals dedicated to Guard (Shield Bash, War Horn, etc.) and Barriers (Dispel).
• Ranking is for a pure DPS character. Not a tank/support who may want Stagger % to allow the party easy combos, or crit % to trigger party-wide effects.
• Willpower's auxiliary effect of magic defense is considered, since it's simply too vital on harder difficulties for all characters.
• The ranking applies to only very general situations. For specific party composition, enemies, locations, etc. It would be best to use the damage calculator (listed above) for more precise min-maxing.
• Flanking damage % is best stat If a DPS in a flanking position. Otherwise it's worthless.

Crafting Priority:

3% Flanking Dmg > 1.75% Attack > 3% Armor Pen > 1.75% Crit Chance = 1.75 Dexterity (rogue) >1.75 Willpower > 1.75 Magic (mage) = 1.75 Strength (warrior) > > 1.75 Cunning > 3% Crit Dmg > 3% Barrier Dmg > 3% Guard Dmg

[coldwetn0se]

@Papa - I think the OP was curious about defensive crafting materials.

For Melee (and most KE's), I like the stagger, so metal. But if I know I am heading in to certain areas where specific defenses would be prudent (i.e. JoH), then cloth or leather is more my choice. Bracing for cold and fire, can be quite helpful, and Magic or Ranged defense on a warrior, may be welcome as well.

Not sure I really answered your question though....

[actionhero112]

Leather.

 

Oh, you didn't ask that. I still say Leather.

 

Between cloth/metal, it depends on the class. Warrior and Rogue I'll take metal, Mage I'll take cloth.

 

I also go by GhoXen's crafting priorities:

 

 

This isn't exactly accurate to build your character off of, because it's calculated with very specific assumption. Base stats. As you go higher in crit chance %, crit damage % becomes increasingly more valuable, to the point where crit damage becomes the favorable stat. GhoXDen also assumed that we have the choice between attack and crit chance in weapons. We do not. Leather does not have the option of being turned into attack %. Thus we put it into crit chance, but as we do that, crit damage becomes more and more appealing. 

 

GhoXden also never calculated the valuable dragon webbing as an offensive material, ergo 3.5 crit damage per material, which skews his findings as well. 

 

GhoXden also never calculated the most powerful DPS steroid in the game, the mighty offense tonic, and applied it to his findings. With the massive bonus to crit damage that you receive from the fully upgraded tonic, (100%) crit chance becomes increasingly more of a priority. 

 

He also never considered that pretty much all classes scale from crit in some basic way. Warriors from flow of battle, Mages from flashpoint, and rogues due to various skills. 

 

While GhoXden's guide is a good place to start if you're looking for the basic mechanics of the game, I would recommend doing your own builds and testing.

 

Basically If I have 60 crit chance due to leather offense slots in my weapon, what is more valuable to me 21% crit damage or 10.5% attack? 

 

Also the thread was about defense slots. 

[Cydh]

I almost always favor metal defense, but you do need to max out your cold resistance to solo the harder fights in Jaws of Hakkon, so from there it's kind of a priority of mine to get those leather or cloth slots somewhere.

With that said all my testing tends to show that magic defense is broken and doesn't do anything at all. Incoming spell damage is the same at 85 and at 25. So when in doubt, go for elemental resistance rather than magic.

[zeypher]

Cloth defense llows you to get magic resistance, one of the best and the hardest resistance to get generally.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I have generally tended to favor Cloth Defense for stacking Magical Resistance.  My limited experience shows it works against even Dragon breath so I don't know where Cydh got the impression it doesn't work.  *shrugs*

[zeypher]

Magic resistance works against elements too. Thats why willpower and cloth defense is so good. 

[capn233]

In general cloth for magic or elemental resist probably.  Then again I usually roll with whatever is part of the best schematic I have.

[CorniliuS]

For melee metal+cloth for ranged leather+cloth.

[PapaCharlie9]

@Papa - I think the OP was curious about defensive crafting materials.
 

 

Yes, you are correct of course.

 

I still say Leather.

 

All kidding aside, I'll take cold/fire/ranged defense buffs over most of the other defensive buffs, with the exception of Willpower.

 

This isn't exactly accurate to build your character off of, because it's calculated with very specific assumption. Base stats. As you go higher in crit chance %, crit damage % becomes increasingly more valuable, to the point where crit damage becomes the favorable stat. GhoXDen also assumed that we have the choice between attack and crit chance in weapons. We do not. Leather does not have the option of being turned into attack %. Thus we put it into crit chance, but as we do that, crit damage becomes more and more appealing. 

 

GhoXden also never calculated the valuable dragon webbing as an offensive material, ergo 3.5 crit damage per material, which skews his findings as well. 

 

GhoXden also never calculated the most powerful DPS steroid in the game, the mighty offense tonic, and applied it to his findings. With the massive bonus to crit damage that you receive from the fully upgraded tonic, (100%) crit chance becomes increasingly more of a priority. 

 

He also never considered that pretty much all classes scale from crit in some basic way. Warriors from flow of battle, Mages from flashpoint, and rogues due to various skills. 

 

While GhoXden's guide is a good place to start if you're looking for the basic mechanics of the game, I would recommend doing your own builds and testing.

 

Basically If I have 60 crit chance due to leather offense slots in my weapon, what is more valuable to me 21% crit damage or 10.5% attack? 

 

Also the thread was about defense slots. 

 

All good points and all worth pointing out. I was aware of the limitations you mentioned, but other readers might not be. This is why I include his own list of assumptions in context.

 

And yes, I know the OP was talking about defense. I guess I was trying to say that such choices shouldn't be made in a vacuum, particularly if mats are scarce. If I've only got 8 Plaidweave, it's silly to spend it on eletrical resist if I might be able to use it on % attack.

[Cydh]

I have generally tended to favor Cloth Defense for stacking Magical Resistance.  My limited experience shows it works against even Dragon breath so I don't know where Cydh got the impression it doesn't work.  *shrugs*

 

I got it from testing the difference in Spirit damage received when soloing the Arcane Horror miniboss in the Descent on a dwarven warrior. Base Magic resistance and 50 spirit vs 85 magic resistance and 50 spirit, no noticeable difference: it's still deadly. It also doesn't seem to work against Poison, Physical (duh), and due to the Hakkon's Wrath debuff, Frost Damage in Jaws of Hakkon will always be off the charts regardless of your actual magic/frost resistance.

 

It's hardly scientific so of course I could be wrong, it's just an impression: it doesn't really help when I need it to help.

 

Anyway even if it works (and from now on I will trust you guys it does), Magic Resistance is worse than Elemental Resistance in general because it's overpriced in crafting mats and slots. The thing is, Resistances and Defenses in general have magnifying returns: the more you invest points in it, the more each point matters. Getting from 0 to 25 for example will reduce the damage you take by 25% (1000 damage vs 750 damage), but getting from 60 to 85 will further reduce it by 60% (400 damage vs 150 damage). Now these 85 magic resistance cost more than 40 T4 cloth mats, or about 4+ slots give or take the base bonus you get from rings, amulets and such (rough guesstimate). The thing is, you get the same survivability bonus from equipping 85 of the adequate elemental resistance, which costs only 20-ish T4 mats, and much, much less with the various accessories. That's basically 2+ crafting slots you free up by not using magic resistance and simply switch gear depending on what you're fighting.

 

This opportunity cost is huge, both defensively (if you're using the much stronger defensive metal affixes) and offensively (if you're using the much stronger cloth & leather utility affixes), and the returns are not good enough to justify it in my opinion. The same applies to Ranged Defense and Melee Defense, as they all have the same tax as Magic Defense. Now there are two defensive stats that actually work, and those are +Health (which also applies to Maximum Guard and +% life on hit/kill) and +Stagger on Being Hit which works WONDERS both defensively and offensively and doesn't require to be capped to be good defensively, as 30% is wonderful already. Stagger on Being Hit works against archers, mages, melee, anything that isn't immune to physical. You're going to take much less hits overall, and you're going to deal much more damage and build much more focus through eldritch, impact and rupture combos.

[capn233]

^Magic defense is capped at 80%, as is ranged and melee defense.  Elemental resistances are as well.

 

From what I understand, they should combine in a multiplicative manner, which means basically diminishing returns adding them.

 

For a theoretical spirit attack of 1000 damage:

 

1000*(1-0.5)(1-0.25) = 375

 

vs

 

1000*(1-0.5)(1-0.8) = 100

 

The difference should be 27.5% compared to the original damage value, even though defense increased by 55%.  Against an Arcane, I am not sure exactly how frequent the attacks are that hit you relative to what is rendered, but it is high DPS and might be hard to test magic defense without screen captures of the damage numbers.

 

Also, the reason magic defense is more expensive per mat is likely because it is generalized.  It will apply to any magic attack.  It can also be buffed via one of the attribute stats, unlike elemental resistance.

 

In any case, in terms of economy, it might be prudent to determine the economics of crafting different forms of elemental resistance vs simply taking elemental resist tonics.