212 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Except the N7 logo. And the pistol. And the omni-blade. And the Krogan. And the music notes at the end.

 

I'm not sure ME1's teaser trailers had half of that.

 

(Though, granted, the omni-blade was developed for ME3.)

[dreamgazer]

I'm not sure ME1's teaser trailers had half of that.

(Though, granted, the omni-blade was developed for ME3.)

It's an omni-tool regardless, which is signature to ME.

[Il Divo]

Given how hated synthesis is I seriously doubt that will ever be implemented a game set after the destroy ending isn't out of the question.

 

Nothing in the teaser resembles anything from the ME series what was seen in the teaser has more in common with a different IP than the ME IP. The only thing that makes the game ME is just the name nothing else.

 

Yet its okay fro Bioware to retcon the galaxies technology level during the trilogy when the lore clearly states its impossible for them to travel to galaxies? Most if not all of the poorly written aspects of the series are the result of retcons.

 

​

Dean already hinted at this a bit, but what teaser are you comparing this to exactly? Because the first ME3 teaser I remember had absolutely nothing to do with the ME brand as it's recognized. It had more in common with a post apocalyptic Gears of War setting, outside of a brief Shepard reference.

 

Depends on what lore you care about. Most Mass Effect fans, for example, I doubt care too much about the secondary codex entries, even if I might enjoy them. Ignoring of course that there's no rule that says we have to invent this technology. Bioware seems a fan of the whole "discovering" other races' technologies. I don't see why that's not an option.

[Il Divo]

The endings tell me they never intended to do more Mass Effect games until someone higher up told them "Milk It"

 

But intergalactic travel will seriously change the setting.  Dark Space was a vast uncrossable gulf, a place of almost literal "Here be dragons"The technology of the Mass Effect universe was not even close to finding a way to scale it.  HEck that's part of the horror of the Reapers:  Anywhere you could go they could follow, and even beat you there.  We were trapped in the galaxy as the Reapers scoured it looking fro organic life.

 

But whose concern is this exactly? Why does any of that matter? The ME3 endings essentially torched the setting for many.

 

 I guess I just don't really see why we should be concerned about how ME:A breaks the Catalyst's logic, or the Reapers being a Cthulhu horror. The whole point of a soft reboot is to keep the setting's basic existence intact for people who liked it, while escaping for anyone who thought it was garbage. We're a bit past the "keep the Reapers scary" deal.

[Drone223]

Except the N7 logo. And the pistol. And the omni-blade. And the Krogan. And the music notes at the end.

Which only appear near the end of the trailer very briefly.

 

​

Dean already hinted at this a bit, but what teaser are you comparing this to exactly? Because the first ME3 teaser I remember had absolutely nothing to do with the ME brand as it's recognized. It had more in common with a post apocalyptic Gears of War setting, outside of a brief Shepard reference.

 

The ME3 teaser had reaper's, thermal clips and husks so its quite reconcilable it being ME. The teaser that was released recently could've been mistaken for a new IP had the N7 logo not shown up at the end.

 

Depends on what lore you care about. Most Mass Effect fans, for example, I doubt care too much about the secondary codex entries, even if I might enjoy them. Ignoring of course that there's no rule that says we have to invent this technology. Bioware seems a fan of the whole "discovering" other races' technologies. I don't see why that's not an option.

 

Its bad writing for the galaxy that lacks the technology to travel to other galaxies to suddenly develop it in 2-3 years especially when the reaper's have been around for billions of years and could've developed during that time. Consistency is important since it helps keeps the setting and story believable.

[Il Divo]

 

 

The ME3 teaser had reaper's, thermal clips and husks so its quite reconcilable it being ME. The teaser that was released recently could've been mistaken for a new IP had the N7 logo not shown up at the end.

 

Its bad writing for the galaxy that lacks the technology to travel to other galaxies to suddenly develop it in 2-3 years especially when the reaper's have been around for billions of years and could've developed during that time. Consistency is important since it helps keeps the setting and story believable.

 

So Mass Effect is defined by zombies and thermal clips? Yeah, I'm gonna take a shot here and say no. The new teaser, as dreamgazer points out, had the N7 logo, a Krogan, and the omniblade. I'd call that parity.

​

Consistent and believable went out the door the second Star Child (and a million other things prior to that in the trilogy) walked through the door. None of that suddenly disappears by staying in the Milky Way. I said this before: where has it been confirmed that humanity developed this technology?

[In Exile]

So Mass Effect is defined by zombies and thermal clips? Yeah, I'm gonna take a shot here and say no. The new teaser, as dreamgazer points out, had the N7 logo, a Krogan, and the omniblade. I'd call that parity.
​
Consistent and believable went out the door the second Star Child (and a million other things prior to that in the trilogy) walked through the door. None of that suddenly disappears by staying in the Milky Way. I said this before: where has it been confirmed that humanity developed this technology?

Consistency and believability went out the door the second the opening crawl of ME1 told us about alien ruins on Mars, alien galactic civilisations and "Mass Effect" as a means of FTL travel. In fact the second we got to FTL we dropped believable our airlock.

[Drone223]

Consistency and believability went out the door the second the opening crawl of ME1 told us about alien ruins on Mars, alien galactic civilisations and "Mass Effect" as a means of FTL travel. In fact the second we got to FTL we dropped believable our airlock.

No it didn't eezo, FTL and biotics are normal parts of the ME universe and the operate within the laws set by them as long as they operate and stay consistent within the limitations set by those laws then its believable.

 

Believable =/= realistic

[Drone223]

So Mass Effect is defined by zombies and thermal clips? Yeah, I'm gonna take a shot here and say no. The new teaser, as dreamgazer points out, had the N7 logo, a Krogan, and the omniblade. I'd call that parity.

​

Those only appeared for 2-3 seconds near the end of the teaser before then it could've been mistaken for another IP.

 

Consistent and believable went out the door the second Star Child (and a million other things prior to that in the trilogy) walked through the door.

The only a handful of things in the series breaks people's SoD most notably Synthesis and Lazarus project. Things such as eezo and biotics people are okay with since

 

None of that suddenly disappears by staying in the Milky Way.

But it doesn't go away by leaving the Milky Way forever it just becomes irrelevant to the point it might as well not exist in the first place.

 

I said this before: where has it been confirmed that humanity developed this technology?

 

Your missing the point, the issue is that there is no way that Bioware will be able explain how the people were able to travel to another galaxy without resorting to bad space magic/poorly written contrivances.

[Ahglock]

Those only appeared for 2-3 seconds near the end of the teaser before then it could've been mistaken for another IP.

 

The only a handful of things in the series breaks people's SoD most notably Synthesis and Lazarus project. Things such as eezo and biotics people are okay with since

 

But it doesn't go away by leaving the Milky Way forever it just becomes irrelevant to the point it might as well not exist in the first place.

 

Your missing the point, the issue is that there is no way that Bioware will be able explain how the people were able to travel to another galaxy without resorting to bad space magic/poorly written contrivances.

 

While synthesis is the least believable option, destroy isn't that much less believable.  An anti AI wave of death that somehow instantly knows if the toaster is a AI toaster is almost as silly.  If it was a turn on the reaper self destruct button, but other AIs made out fine it would be believable in setting.  Control is actually believable, why it needed a human sacrifice is not really defined but it is at least within the bounds of the setting. 

 

And as long as they go with poorly written contrivances they are good, lets face it that is about in setting believable as you can get.  The series is just a string of poorly written contrivances put together. Which I love, but hey I like Bad Boys and Armageddon as movies so there style fits me.  

[DieselJet]

I wrote this in another thread, but I really don't see why people still hate the endings. Even the extended version. Since ME1, the choices were destroy or join the Reapers. ME2 gave a new idea, control the Reapers. Yet we get those in the extended version, and people still b!tch... WTF? What ending were you expecting, Shepard and Harbinger sitting by a campfire singing Kumbaya? All while seeing silhouettes of others dancing like Ewoks from Return of the Jedi?

 

This actually happened.

Fan: I want Shepard to be alive!

Me: S/He does in the extended cut, you can destroy the Reapers like you're were suppose to. Also proved the Crucible was lying about killing all sinthetics.

Fan: WHAT!? That so f**king stupid. Well, can you agree with the Illusive Man to control the Reapers?

Me. Yes. You can control the Reapers, but Shepard kills their body, uploading their mind into a Reaper (Kinda like the Avatars in "AVATAR") taking over Harbinger's management.  Bringing peace, as Reaper Shepard commands the Reapers to help rebuild.

Fan: F**K YOU Bioware!! Why the f**king hell would I do that?

Me: Because it was one of the options first given by Saren in ME, TIM in the second.

 

Sometimes, I don't understand people.

 

I think the reason you don't understand people is because you clearly haven't been bothered to understand why so many were upset with the ending.

 

Sure, some people purely didn't like it because it wasn't a happily-ever-after ending. I get that. But they are a minority.

The majority of people actually didn't like the ending because it didn't really change depending on what you did or did not do. Have you seen the video that compares all endings? It is astonishing how little was different between them all. You would really think Bioware would have invested far more energy and time into the ending. But they didn't. That's why people care. 

[Drone223]

While synthesis is the least believable option, destroy isn't that much less believable.  An anti AI wave of death that somehow instantly knows if the toaster is a AI toaster is almost as silly.  If it was a turn on the reaper self destruct button, but other AIs made out fine it would be believable in setting.  Control is actually believable, why it needed a human sacrifice is not really defined but it is at least within the bounds of the setting. 

Destroy actually makes sense since it targets anything with reaper code.

 

And as long as they go with poorly written contrivances they are good, lets face it that is about in setting believable as you can get.  The series is just a string of poorly written contrivances put together. Which I love, but hey I like Bad Boys and Armageddon as movies so there style fits me.

 

 

If Bioware continues to use contrivances then there going to eventually write themselves into a corner once again which would indicate that they'll learned nothing from their mistakes.

[Il Divo]

Those only appeared for 2-3 seconds near the end of the teaser before then it could've been mistaken for another IP.

 

The only a handful of things in the series breaks people's SoD most notably Synthesis and Lazarus project. Things such as eezo and biotics people are okay with since

 

Your missing the point, the issue is that there is no way that Bioware will be able explain how the people were able to travel to another galaxy without resorting to bad space magic/poorly written contrivances.

 

And the exact same can (and has) been said for the ME3 teaser. Hence when it launched why people said the ME3 teaser felt "nothing" like Mass Effect, but rather a Gears of War Clone. Seriously, 2 seconds of thermal clips is your defense of the ME3 teaser?

 

And you're assuming people care. With how botched the endings were, many don't have an interest in the Milky Way. "Discovering" more advanced technology from a different precursor race might not be the most original idea in the world, but it's not worse than the million other contrivances we've had from ME1 onward. Me? I'm pretending that the original trilogy never existed and treating this as a new IP, introducing a new set of rules. It's essentially the new "Mass Effect 1". For those who did like the trilogy, Bioware is still retaining the basics of Mass Effect technology and the different alien species we've encountered.

[Il Divo]

 

 

But it doesn't go away by leaving the Milky Way forever it just becomes irrelevant to the point it might as well not exist in the first place.

 

So basically, it goes away. That's the problem here: you're trying to reconcile contradictory goals. For a lot of players who despise ME3's endings, there's no impetus to stay in the Milky Way. Building off those endings as a premise is about as undesirable as it gets. Yes, you could call this "more Space Magic" and you'd be right. But as a soft reboot, this allows them to distance themselves from everything that came before, without outright calling it a retcon. The point is to introduce a completely new premise/setting. ​

[AlanC9]

If Bioware continues to use contrivances then there going to eventually write themselves into a corner once again which would indicate that they'll learned nothing from their mistakes.

How would a lack of contrivances prevent you from writing yourself into a corner? Usually it's the other way around -- you bring in a contrivance when the logic of the situation has led the story into a place you need to extricate it from.

[AlanC9]

So basically, it goes away. That's the problem here: you're trying to reconcile contradictory goals. For a lot of players who despise ME3's endings, there's no impetus to stay in the Milky Way. Building off those endings as a premise is about as undesirable as it gets. Yes, you could call this "more Space Magic" and you'd be right. But as a soft reboot, this allows them to distance themselves from everything that came before, without outright calling it a retcon. The point is to introduce a completely new premise/setting. ​

Well, not completely new.

I agree that reconciling disparate goals is the central issue here. The trick is not so much to, um, synthesize the opposing viewpoints as it is to paper the disputes over. The current approach looks like it will avoid dealbreakers for people like me -- for whom continuity of setting is the primary value -- and avoid dealbreakers for people who are morally or intellectually opposed to the existing endings. If I can pretend that the existing endings are real, but iakus can still pretend that MEHEM is real, they've dodged one bullet.

[Iakus]

But whose concern is this exactly? Why does any of that matter? The ME3 endings essentially torched the setting for many.

 

 I guess I just don't really see why we should be concerned about how ME:A breaks the Catalyst's logic, or the Reapers being a Cthulhu horror. The whole point of a soft reboot is to keep the setting's basic existence intact for people who liked it, while escaping for anyone who thought it was garbage. We're a bit past the "keep the Reapers scary" deal.

Except relocating to Andromeda isn't keeping the setting intact.  It may retain some elements of it (like the concept of biotics, and the basic appearance of equipment) but virtually everything we have come to associate with the series is gone.

 

Look at it this way, what if the next Dragon Age game was set in Par Ladi, a fabled land north of Thedas and has absolutely no contact with anyone from the continent.

 

This land would have no Chantry, no Qunari, no Tevinter, no darkspawn, no Deep Roads, no Dalish, no Ferelden, etc.  None of the history or connection to what we have experienced before.  Would it still be Dragon Age just because it has mages?

 

By the same token, this strikes me as being just a new IP with a Mass Effect skin over it.

[Iakus]

Well, not completely new.

I agree that reconciling disparate goals is the central issue here. The trick is not so much to, um, synthesize the opposing viewpoints as it is to paper the disputes over. The current approach looks like it will avoid dealbreakers for people like me -- for whom continuity of setting is the primary value -- and avoid dealbreakers for people who are morally or intellectually opposed to the existing endings. If I can pretend that the existing endings are real, but iakus can still pretend that MEHEM is real, they've dodged one bullet.

And believe me, on paper, that sounds like an excellent idea.

 

But we still have to resolve it as being part of the Mass Effect setting.  And justifying going to Andromeda is a huge hurdle to overcome.

[AlanC9]

Look at it this way, what if the next Dragon Age game was set in Par Ladi, a fabled land north of Thedas and has absolutely no contact with anyone from the continent.

This land would have no Chantry, no Qunari, no Tevinter, no darkspawn, no Deep Roads, no Dalish, no Ferelden, etc. None of the history or connection to what we have experienced before. Would it still be Dragon Age just because it has mages?

That analogy only works if we're playing colonists from the south, so we've brought the Chantry and Ferelden culture with us, and if the darkspawn were destroyed for good in the previous game. Qunari and the Tevinter Imperium could get there as easily as we could, so they could be in too. The big losses would be Dalish elves and Orzammar dwarves.

Seriously, you know there's going to be near-total continuity of culture. That's the easy way to develop the setting. Hence the N7.

As for justification... if I was a Bio guy reading your posts, honestly, I wouldn't see anything to be done fir you.

[Il Divo]

1) Except relocating to Andromeda isn't keeping the setting intact.  It may retain some elements of it (like the concept of biotics, and the basic appearance of equipment) but virtually everything we have come to associate with the series is gone.

 

2) Look at it this way, what if the next Dragon Age game was set in Par Ladi, a fabled land north of Thedas and has absolutely no contact with anyone from the continent.

 

3) This land would have no Chantry, no Qunari, no Tevinter, no darkspawn, no Deep Roads, no Dalish, no Ferelden, etc.  None of the history or connection to what we have experienced before.  Would it still be Dragon Age just because it has mages?

 

4) By the same token, this strikes me as being just a new IP with a Mass Effect skin over it.

 

1) We're forgetting the technology, and the various races, not to mention the Mass Effect history is still present. Remember: it's a spin off, that's the entire point behind how they work. You retain some of the basic elements, while focusing on an entirely different aspect.

 

With ME4 anyway, we're done with: Shepard, the Reapers, the old cast/crew, Cerberus, and the Protheans. Those are all pretty major elements of the Mass Effect universe as it stands and they've all either been finished or overplayed. What exactly is left at that point from the old universe: technology, races, and the location. So unless the complaint is that we're not getting entire civilizations of Krogan/Salarians/etc or that we absolutely need to see the Citadel, I personally don't understand what we've lost in Andromeda vs. the Milky Way.

 

2 and 3) That's not a fair comparison. A better example would be: imagine if you had an expedition of people from Ferelden/Orlais/Par Vollen head north into Par Ladi, complete with all the old rules/magic system/the Fade, while potentially encountering new cultures/technologies. ​​And I'd say that still reeks pretty heavily of Dragon Age, imo.
 

[Il Divo]

Damn it, Alan. You beat me to it with the colonization example.

[AlanC9]

I
The majority of people actually didn't like the ending because it didn't really change depending on what you did or did not do. Have you seen the video that compares all endings? It is astonishing how little was different between them all. You would really think Bioware would have invested far more energy and time into the ending. But they didn't. That's why people care.

This always struck me as a fairly weird objection. Sure, more cutscenes are nice, but it's not like they would in themselves represent a substantive change. And if this was your problem, didn't the EC cover you?

[In Exile]

This always struck me as a fairly weird objection. Sure, more cutscenes are nice, but it's not like they would in themselves represent a substantive change. And if this was your problem, didn't the EC cover you?

Not to mention that there's no evidence for it. I hated the endings, but it had nothing to do with reactivity.

[Drone223]

And the exact same can (and has) been said for the ME3 teaser. Hence when it launched why people said the ME3 teaser felt "nothing" like Mass Effect, but rather a Gears of War Clone. Seriously, 2 seconds of thermal clips is your defense of the ME3 teaser?

 

 

Given how the reaper's show up its defiantly feels like a ME trailer.

 

And you're assuming people care. With how botched the endings were, many don't have an interest in the Milky Way.

 

I find that ridiculous the Milky Way is largely unexplored there still a lot it can offer.

 

 

"Discovering" more advanced technology from a different precursor race might not be the most original idea in the world, but it's not worse than the million other contrivances we've had from ME1 onward. Me? I'm pretending that the original trilogy never existed and treating this as a new IP, introducing a new set of rules. It's essentially the new "Mass Effect 1". For those who did like the trilogy, Bioware is still retaining the basics of Mass Effect technology and the different alien species we've encountered.

 

If its not going to have much resemblance to past ME titles then its shouldn't be called Mass Effect in the first place just make a new IP instead.

 

So basically, it goes away. That's the problem here: you're trying to reconcile contradictory goals. For a lot of players who despise ME3's endings, there's no impetus to stay in the Milky Way. Building off those endings as a premise is about as undesirable as it gets. Yes, you could call this "more Space Magic" and you'd be right. But as a soft reboot, this allows them to distance themselves from everything that came before, without outright calling it a retcon. The point is to introduce a completely new premise/setting. ​

As Iakus said it before a lot of what defined the franchise is gone, Bioware isn't expanding the setting their throwing it away to the point it hardly resembles the series people are familiar with.

 

 

How would a lack of contrivances prevent you from writing yourself into a corner? Usually it's the other way around -- you bring in a contrivance when the logic of the situation has led the story into a place you need to extricate it from.

Not so much not being able to write themselves into a corner but rather they know how to get themselves out of it without having to run away from it.

[Il Divo]

 

As Iakus said it before a lot of what defined the franchise is gone, Bioware isn't expanding the setting their throwing it away to the point it hardly resembles the series people are familiar with.

 

 

Once more: spin off. That is the exact point of a spin off. So much of what makes Mass Effect "iconic" was pretty much shot with ME3. Shepard's dead in most endings/his story is finished, the Reapers are destroyed/controlled, Cerberus has been obliterated, the cast/crew has moved on to other things, and we've discovered about a million Prothean artifacts by this point.

 

That essentially leaves: technology, the races, and locations. 2 of those 3 are being retained in Andromeda, not to mention the more concentrated focus on Planet Exploration.