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[The Ascendant]

We've explored alot of myths and legends in Inquisition, but I am still curious regarding the other pantheon of Elven Gods the Forgotten Ones. If the Creators are spirit like as seen with Mythal/Flemeth and Sols/Fen'Harel does that make the Forgotten Ones demonic in nature?

[Reznore57]

There's only a few clues about them...

I doubt they were anything special to be honest.

 

Just citizens of the elven empire who got fed up with their Gods.

First we're told they were "many" , and they were linked to everything bad...

 

Spoiler

From Geldauran codices from JoH ,they weren't into anything bad , they just wanted to overthrow the Creators because  they thought they weren't Gods just powerful magic users keeping everyone under their thumb with religious propaganda.    

 

Now when I say "Not special" I mean compared to other elves back then .

It seems elves used to be way more powerful.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They do seem to be an interesting connudrum. Even the Temple of Mythal seems to describe them as monstrous things that thrive in a place that will even drive gods mad.

 

But there are runes in Jaws of Hakkon that appear to indicate they were just ancient Elves that grew power hungry and rebelled against the Creators.

 

We know those elves that do worship them see them as more predatory and violent. 

[Sah291]

Well we don't really know who or what they are yet. We are kinda assuming they were another tribe of gods that the elven gods battled with at some point. A lot of real world pantheons have something like that, if the writers are drawing inspiration from any of them. But we don't know if they were demonic exactly, or just rivals of some sort... There are some theories about them being possibly related to the Old Gods, but at least one codex says there were many of them, so perhaps not. Another theory is that they were just another tribe of elves that rebelled against the empire. We know Fen'Harel supposedly had some sort of connection to both groups.

The way Solas talks about the veil and coexisting with spirits, I wouldn't be surpised if he betrayed and sealed both groups away with the intent to stop them from fighting and destroying each other. If that is indeed what he did.

[Ranadiel Marius]

If the Creators are spirit like as seen with Mythal/Flemeth and Sols/Fen'Harel does that make the Forgotten Ones demonic in nature?

I think it is more likely that both of the Elvhen Pantheons are just Elvhes who acquired significant power rather than being spirits or demons. In the Forgotten One chamber in JoH, Geldauran seems pretty convinced the gods are nothing special and he can obtain power rivalling theirs.

Seems likely that they were all dreamers, so I imagine their "godhood" was going one step beyond that.

[Drasanil]

Now when I say "Not special" I mean compared to other elves back then .

It seems elves used to be way more powerful.

 

Wouldn't it be other way around? Given how elves were back then, the "gods" would actually need to be something really special. If regular elves were as "immortal" and "powerful" as Solas describes, wouldn't the "gods" really need to be a step up from that to be considered divine, especially by other quasi-immortal magical beings? 

[Reznore57]

Wouldn't it be other way around? Given how elves were back then, the "gods" would actually need to be something really special. If regular elves were as "immortal" and "powerful" as Solas describes, wouldn't the "gods" really need to be a step up from that to be considered divine, especially by other quasi-immortal magical beings? 

 

Not  if you believe Geldauran's claim.

It seems it was all religious propaganda...

We had the case of Pharaoh who claimed they were almost Godlike , or Divine.They were normal men as far as I know.Just smoke and mirrors.

[Drasanil]

 

Not  if you believe Geldauran's claim.

 

Exactly if you believe his claim. It's equally possible he was delusional. That other Forgotten Ones are remembered as Gods, Anaris for example, with actual worshippers while Geldauran appears to be a grubby megalomaniac doesn't necessarily lend credence to his claims/ambitions.

 

 

It seems it was all religious propaganda...

We had the case of Pharaoh who claimed they were almost Godlike , or Divine.They were normal men as far as I know.Just smoke and mirrors.

 

But there's the rub and where it gets interesting. When it comes to the ancient elves, we're dealing with a society of almost assuredly jaded, given their life spans/age, quasi-immortal sorcerers. Sure you could pull of the Pharaoh style propaganda for a while, but after the third or fourth century, let alone first or second millennia it seems unlikely those elves wouldn't start to catch on.  

 

Yet even with all that, and being murdered, Mythal still has ancient elf worshippers, as we see in the Arbor Wilds. Not to mention apparently, unlike every non-darkspawn we know of, Mythal managed to "survive" being murdered and eventually found her way back to the mortal realm. That at least lends some credence to the fact there was something to it beyond just a really good PR department. After all wouldn't we have a bunch of other powerful ancient elf wizards pulling off the same if godhood was just unfounded propaganda?

[Reznore57]

Exactly if you believe his claim. It's equally possible he was delusional. That other Forgotten Ones are remembered as Gods, Anaris for example, with actual worshippers while Geldauran appears to be a grubby megalomaniac doesn't necessarily lend credence to his claims/ambitions.

There's also the fact Solas dismiss their Godhood (and even Felassan in the Masked Empire)
Now from my point of view "God" is a title , so you probably don't want to discuss what's a God with me.

Oh and also the story of Ghilan'nain who was a "normal " elf and ascended to Godhood , somehow.
The Sinner , random follower of one of the god , who shapeshifted into the Divine form and had to be punished.(I mean if it was divine , how a random dude is able to do it?)


 

But there's the rub and where it gets interesting. When it comes to the ancient elves, we're dealing with a society of almost assuredly jaded, given their life spans/age, quasi-immortal sorcerers. Sure you could pull of the Pharaoh style propaganda for a while, but after the third or fourth century, let alone first or second millennia it seems unlikely those elves wouldn't start to catch on.  
 
Yet even with all that, and being murdered, Mythal still has ancient elf worshippers, as we see in the Arbor Wilds. Not to mention apparently, unlike every non-darkspawn we know of, Mythal managed to "survive" being murdered and eventually found her way back to the mortal realm. That at least lends some credence to the fact there was something to it beyond just a really good PR department. After all wouldn't we have a bunch of other powerful ancient elf wizards pulling off the same if godhood was just unfounded propaganda?

It's possible the elven rulers were one of the oldest and knew things others did not .
And we don't know if everyone was allowed to go on forever , it's possible it was "You're 350 years old now so this divine law says you have to go in uthenera or you have to die.."
I mean those Gods were probably control freaks anyway , their most devoted , their priests were under a geas.

Now I'm not saying they didn't have anything special going on , it could have been magical and not something divine.
Hell Flemythal is full of troll when you ask her about it.
It's kind of impossible to know , we just have fragmented lore , and biaised people ...The Gods , like Flemythal and her priests aren't denying any form of Godhood.
Fen Harel , and co who weren't liking the way the empire was ruled , say it was all lies.
So who are we supposed to believe?

Something went wrong with the elves at one point , but their Gods disappeared , the veil was created at one point , Great dragons .. descent spoilers

Spoiler

and Titans fell asleep and the dwarves also suffered from losing magic and maybe immortality

etc...so who/what was divine , what caused all of this ?

[myahele]

Who knows, perhaps the Forgotten One's where once part of the Pantheon, but then a schism happened between them and the Pantheon and as such they were forcefully made to be forgotten somehow.

 

Solas and Geldaurran's claim don't consider the Pantheon (or the rest of the Forgotten Ones) to be gods. As he says it's as simple as having power over people and that it's more or less wrong to claim oneself to be a god.

 

After all, Ghilanain's passion for creating creatures proved to be too much of a danger to even the "gods" themselves and had to be bribed (be part of the Pantheon) to stop what she's been doing.

 

And if Dalish lore is to be believed (lol) the Forgotten Ones still exists and speak to them in dreams and that there are some who even goes far as to worship them.

[Reznore57]

 

And if Dalish lore is to be believed (lol)

 

This made me laugh!

Poor Dalish , I don't think they did such a bad job.

If they had libraries those were destroyed or out of reach , even possible it's mostly text you can only read with veilfire , in a language they're still trying to piece together.

[FrankWisdom]

We've explored alot of myths and legends in Inquisition, but I am still curious regarding the other pantheon of Elven Gods the Forgotten Ones. If the Creators are spirit like as seen with Mythal/Flemeth and Sols/Fen'Harel does that make the Forgotten Ones demonic in nature?

Honestly we just don't have enough information. The Forgotten Ones in my opinion are the most interesting pieces of lore that we've been fed precisely because they're so damned mysterious.

 

My theory is/was that they are/were the progenitors of the blight. I believe they are actually the ones who whispered to the magisters. Those that claim to be "Old Gods". I also believe their essence or whatever their nature is, is what was imprisoned in the Golden City. my reasoning comes from a couple of things.

 

First off, Corypheus claims he found "only chaos and corruption, dead whispers, for a thousand years I was confused, no more."

 

The Forgotten Ones are associated with disease, terror, spite and malevolence whereas the Elvhen Pantheon are gods of justice, knowledge and craft, who seek to guide and protect the Elvhen people.

 

They are also said to be "wicked things that thrive in the abyss" where "even a god should not linger".

 

When Andruil hunts them in their realm it is said that "each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning".

 

Then it goes on to say "Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands".

 

Then finally, "Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned."

 

Lastly Geldauran's claim

 

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

 

What did the Old Gods whisper to the Seven Magisters.

 

Then a voice whispered within their hearts,
You are the Lords of the earth!
Go forth to claim the empty throne
Of Heaven and be gods.

 

They manipulated the Magisters through their pride in order to free themselves from the Golden City. The Golden City blackens right after this event, as if something has been unleashed, tainting the city from the inside out. I think "the Forgotten Ones" needed the Magisters to breach the veil physically for two reasons. One, this was the only way to reach and breach the Golden City and two, if their nature is akin to spirits and they are ethereal beings of some kind (given Corypheus' comments, I would tend to argue that this would be the case), they needed physical hosts to then cross the veil from The Fade into the Physical world. The Magisters are said to have been thrown back unto the earth, changed and deformed. I believe that is why. It is also said that

 

"In the aftermath of the event, all of the Old Gods suddenly stopped communicating with their followers."

 

Given they were now free, they no longer needed to tempt powerful mortals, which was why the whispered in the first place.

 

It's also stated that "Indeed, despite being locked away from the mortal world and seen as the worst of the gods, the Forgotten Ones appear to still hold sway over some elves, and may not be so "forgotten" after all."

 

So why would the darkspawn be compelled to seek out imprisoned, slumbering Great Dragons if they originate from "The Forgotten Ones"? Well here it comes.

 

We know there were seven Great Dragon's (Old Gods) imprisoned and "dreaming" in the deep roads (so too are the Elvhen gods described to be in a deep slumber). We know Corypheus claims he heard "Dead" whispers in The Golden City but only saw chaos and corruption. The Fade and Thedas, separated by the veil. Spirit separated from the physical... Uthenera. What if the veil was created specifically to keep body and spirit separate. What if those great dragon's are the physical representation of the Elvhen Pantheon. What if their spirits were locked away with the use of eluvians in another realm (or The Fade). Again, more questions. The Great Dragons could also have been aspects of the Elvhen Pantheon, physical representations that they created either to serve them or to use as vessels the way spirits do when they possess the living.

 

If The Elvhen pantheons' spirits were split from their Great Dragon bodies, it could also explain why the dragons are now savage and unable to speak "intelligibly". If my theory is right and "The Forgotten Ones" are the ones that whispered to the Magisters and are the ones who usurp the Old God bodies, then it would make sense that only the darkspawn and Wardens hear the Archdemon communicate through the taint and why it is seemingly able to communicate intelligibly as well as strategize while mobilizing darkspawn.

 

 

this is where I think a quote from Geldauran is so compelling "apart from them until I strike in mastery."

The "apart" from them could simply be metaphoric, meaning when his plans are put into action, he will rival their power and become of their nature but... it could also be interpreted in a more literal sense. Wouldn't it be the ultimate F**k you to the Pantheon if "The Forgotten Ones" claimed their bodies and warped their very "nature", parading around in their vessels while ruling the physical world? Well it would ****** me off, were I them...

 

Also, If your Inquisitor is Elvhen, Kieran also goes on to say that he doesn't know why the Inquisitor's people "want to look like that" and that their blood is "very old". This could be a reference to The Old Gods as well, or at the very least a hint that the Elvhen people could shapeshift at one point (perhaps in a time before the veil), the same way Flemythal and Morrigan (if you let her drink from the well of souls) did. It could also indicate an origin relating to spirits, who can also take the form of different things, based on desires of mortals as seen with the Avvar people. The fact that dragons are no more than beasts ruled by instinct is what makes me most suspicious. perhaps spirits are what gave them reason i.e. consciousness. When the veil was created, this was no longer possible as the spirit realm was separated from the "physical" realm.

 

If dragons ruled the skies before the veil, I wonder, would they then represent the Elvhen people. Let me elaborate. If the Elvhen people were dragons, then High Dragons maybe would represent the Elvhen High priests for example. I make this comparison because of the following quote (which ironically comes from an unlikely source and also brings forth many questions).

The Tome of Koslun, the sacred Qunari scripture explicitly says that "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men".

 So The Elvhen Pantheon=Old Gods i.e. Great Dragons, High Dragons=Elvhen High Priests, Dragons=Elvhen People... just an interesting theory.

 

 

Now what makes me hesitant is that like Rezore57 points out, everything said about "The Forgotten Ones" could've been propaganda spread by the High Keepers of The Elvhen Pantheon (given they were quite fallible beings as well). Though all the different sources implicating them to live in "the void" and their association with disease, terror, spite and malevolence does strike me as extreme.

 

 

As for Geldauran, even if he claims that nature is not what makes one a god, it still doesn't explain what the Elvhen Pantheon's nature is or is not. Geldauran could have simply meant that even if the "gods" were extremely powerful due to their "nature" it is not what makes one powerful. I think it was more of an insight into his beliefs and personality and him challenging their rule. I think he meant that his deeds would bring him to power, that he would match their nature with his deeds. He likens stature and position to principle and philosophy i.e. subject and object, actor and acted upon. He believes his will is the source of his strength and what defines a "title" i.e. being called a "god". I don't see the Pantheon being exactly as the Elvhen people nor do I liken their powers to "parlor tricks" but I do believe they are much less then they were thought to be. The fact that an Elvhen God's (Falon'Din) "desire for worshippers was so great he started brutal wars to gain more, killing all who would not bow to him." makes me wonder whether or not they were some type of spirits who became more powerful the more followers "believed" in them the same way the Avvar begin a year-long time of offerings and prayers and rituals when a spirit is destroyed. At the end of this period, a new spirit takes on the name and role of the old one. Given Hakkon, my dragon theory doesn't feel that crazy. It could also be that some Elvhen mages came to be possessed by powerful spirits, the way Augurs let spirits possess their apprentices, which might have been how the Elvhen Pantheon came to be.

 

 

Geldauran's nature however is what makes me hesitate with my theory. If he was just a powerful Ancient Elvhen mage who desired power and was disillusioned with the Elvhen Pantheon, then what of the void and the blight. Is the void or "blight magic" his alternative to rival the Elvhen Pantheon, is it of "The Forgotten Ones" or was it "claimed by them". Did his quest for power turn him into something more, or was he also of a similar nature to the Elvhen Pantheon?

 

The only thing that has me perplexed is the dark ritual. If Kieran has an Old God soul, what then, does that entail? FleMythal absorbs it into herself, but when she takes it out of Kieran, clearly it is immaterial, energy. This is the one flaw in my theory that is gnawing at me. Maybe "awakening" an Old God breaks Uthenera (like I speculated above, which could be a way to keep the Elvhen Pantheon in The Fade) and the soul is "awakened" and therefore restored, just corrupted by "The Forgotten Ones".  That however, would be quite a sloppy way to have imprisoned such powerful beings. I doubt Fen'Harel went through the trouble of creating the veil with Mythal if it would have been so easy...

 

If all of this is the case, it also has me question the taint itself. Does it contain the will of these "Forgotten Ones". Is it the product of only one of "Forgotten Ones" or all of them, are all of their essences within the taint or do they simply reach out through the taint to corrupt. If that's the case, where are they now? What form have they taken, if any? I really hope we get more information on them with the next DLC, I'm getting desperate here...

[Reznore57]

Honestly we just don't have enough information. The Forgotten Ones in my opinion are the most interesting pieces of lore that we've been fed precisely because they're so damned mysterious.

I still have problem with the Forgotten Ones because for years me and a number people on the forum couldn't make the difference between Forgotten Ones and Forbidden Ones.
Spirits and demons bores me so this part of the elven pantheon was shoved on the "Zzzzzz" part of my brain.
 

My theory is/was that they are/were the progenitors of the blight. I believe they are actually the ones who whispered to the magisters. Those that claim to be "Old Gods". I also believe their essence or whatever their nature is, is what was imprisoned in the Golden City. my reasoning comes from a couple of things.

First off, Corypheus claims he found "only chaos and corruption, dead whispers, for a thousand years I was confused, no more."

It's possible the Forgotten Ones were whispering to magisters.I mean I'm sure it was elves , I would tend more towards the Creators , because without Mythal and Fen Harel , you had seven of them left.
The Forgottens Ones we don't have numbers , except maybe there were numerous.
Besides if the Creators weren't truly gods , well they were good at fooling people about Godhood and such.

And there's also the banter with Solas and Cole , when they talk about someone/something trapped behind a mirror , and it causes distress to Solas.
Now when you go to the temple of Mythal , the way he talks about his peers...I think he wouldn't shed a tear about tossing them on the world toilet and flushing.
And his wish for rebellion , his attacks on "Godhood" are closer to the hints we're getting about the Forgotten Ones.
I think Solas used the Forgotten Ones for his rebellion against the Creators , then when he was done , he trapped them behind an Eluvian.
He was probably thinking the Forgotten Ones would turn out just like the Creators in the long run , and didn't want to take the chance.
It's possible he now wants to free them .

Now what was in the Golden City , I'm not sure ...this type of Blight sings a tune linked to seven huge dragons underground.
We know some elven Gods could shapeshift into dragons , at least Mythal for sure.And they were seven left.
Now what was in the Golden City was immaterial but blighted beyond belief...I don't remember a spirit or a soul getting the blight in the setting.
The dragons underground are bound by powerful dark magic but we're told it's the darkspawn who blight them.
Are we sure of that?
I mean People from the Imperium knew Dumat the Archdemon was Dumat the Old God.They were surprised by his attack...I mean who the hell look at an Archdemon and think "oh it's a regular dragon , everything is fine."

(Sorry I tend to go all over the place I know! )

The Forgotten Ones are associated with disease, terror, spite and malevolence whereas the Elvhen Pantheon are gods of justice, knowledge and craft, who seek to guide and protect the Elvhen people.

They are also said to be "wicked things that thrive in the abyss" where "even a god should not linger".

The Gods of disease etc...come from Dalish tales.Now If the Forgotten Ones fought the Creators , they probably suffered something close to what Fen Harel went through."Noble Reble" to "Trickster who ends up giggling like mad while the elves are losing everything".
Same thing "wicked things in the abyss"...comes from a Creator temple.I doubt they liked the Forgotten Ones.

When Andruil hunts them in their realm it is said that "each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning".

Then it goes on to say "Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands".

Yeah it seems Andruil might have gotten the Blight .But err...things is if Andruil was going insane , well the Forgotten Ones were probably going insane too...and if she was able to go into the Void.Well the FO would be able to get out and spread disease all over the realm.
 

Then finally, "Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned."

That part also leave me scratching my head.
If Andruil had the Blight ,simply taking knowledge from her skull doesn't make everything alright.
You still have a blighted Goddess on your hand .Now even Mythal doesn't know a cure (or it was lost ) at best you have the Dark ritual , but you still need blighted people to do that.
So ?...

Lastly Geldauran's claim

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

What did the Old Gods whisper to the Seven Magisters.

Then a voice whispered within their hearts,
You are the Lords of the earth!
Go forth to claim the empty throne
Of Heaven and be gods.

This would indeed sounds more like the Forgotten Ones , I doubt the Creators would give Godhood to a bunch of humans, even for trolling.

[Reznore57]

I couldn't fit all of this in one post for some reason.

So why would the darkspawn be compelled to seek out imprisoned, slumbering Great Dragons if they originate from "The Forgotten Ones"? Well here it comes.

That's the question.

We know there were seven Great Dragon's (Old Gods) imprisoned and "dreaming" in the deep roads (so too are the Elvhen gods described to be in a deep slumber). We know Corypheus claims he heard "Dead" whispers in The Golden City but only saw chaos and corruption. The Fade and Thedas, separated by the veil. Spirit separated from the physical... Uthenera. What if the veil was created specifically to keep body and spirit separate. What if those great dragon's are the physical representation of the Elvhen Pantheon. What if their spirits were locked away with the use of eluvians in another realm (or The Fade). Again, more questions. The Great Dragons could also have been aspects of the Elvhen Pantheon, physical representations that they created either to serve them or to use as vessels the way spirits do when they possess the living.

The thing is...why bother keeping their bodies underground?
Those are kept with dark magic ...Mythal was slained and her original body destroyed.We know a whisp of her kept on frolicking in the fade ...but she had to find a new host and her power isn't as great as it used to be.
There's also the singing.
There's singing in red lyrium too , but it's probably Titans or an echo of them trying to reach someone.
Now what the hell is singing from the Blight originating from the Golden City?Because if it's the Old Gods , and they are elven Gods , Flemeth isn't singing and she says sadly "alas as long as the music plays we dance."

Now remember how Coryphinoob took a random dragon , put a piece of his soul into it , and use it as a pet?
What if , in their folly , the Elven Gods seeing the war with the Forgotten Ones was getting out of hand , did the same?
What if they used the biggest great dragons "The Blood of the World" to do that .
If the Creators linked their soul to a bunch of dragons , vital to Thedas , and then got tainted by maybe the Forgotten Ones ...Jeez.
You can't kill the dragons without dooming Thedas , you can't kill the Creators because to do so you need to kill the Dragons...

Now in this tinfoil hat theory , the dragons are the one singing (and just like the Titans for whatever reasons people can't hear them anymore)
The Creators are a bunch of ...well Blighted soul beyond repairs stuck in the Golden City.
And massive plothole the one pretending to be the Old Gods are...well it just leave the Forgotten Ones .
The plothole is why they would bother whispering to humans to go there , spite because they're trapped too?But why stop whispering , they could keep on with the mayhem , nothing left to loose.
If it was the "Old Gods", you'd think after seeing Dumat and co being slained , it would be time to get chatty again.Ravaging the land is fun, but you'd think they would have a plan B.
Erf I don't know.Stupid Golden CIty and its secrets.

If The Elvhen pantheons' spirits were split from their Great Dragon bodies, it could also explain why the dragons are now savage and unable to speak "intelligibly". If my theory is right and "The Forgotten Ones" are the ones that whispered to the Magisters and are the ones who usurp the Old God bodies, then it would make sense that only the darkspawn and Wardens hear the Archdemon communicate through the taint.

It would make more sense than my theory.
But there's the singing (well it could be a simple incantation for a spell...afterall Solas talks about elven magic in "unending symphony")
And also the ones whispering being really clever and manipulative and then the archdemons being...well not the brightest , using brute force until the very end.It's like the ones whispering didn't know what the hell they were doing , I mean I imagine it's fun to be a dragon...but after a while must get boring if you can't talk.Besides archdemons can shapeshift , sort of.
If they're slained , their soul gets in a darkspawn and shapeshift back to a dragon.(like Cory)
Morrigan , human , at best can be a human , shapeshift into a dog , spider , bird etc...dragon.

this is where I think a quote from Geldauran is so compelling "apart from them until I strike in mastery."

The "apart" from them could simply be metaphoric, meaning when his plans are put into action, he will rival their power and become of their nature but... it could also be interpreted in a more literal sense. Wouldn't it be the ultimate F**k you to the Pantheon if "The Forgotten Ones" claimed their bodies and warped their very "nature", parading around in their vessels while ruling the physical world? Well it would ****** me off, were I them...

Yeah I can imagine wanting to mimick the old pantheon but still...again ravaging the land as its limits as far as fun goes.I mean it's something I can imagine a toddler doing ...not an adult.
If there's any intelligence behind those Archdemons , it's a case of total fury with nothing left to loose.
That's why I'm having trouble seeing them as something more than dragons , wounded beasts.Yeah they lead the darkspawn into war...but dragons are predators.Fighting isn't exactly something new.
And again Corypheus , Architect were tainted , they kept their souls , didn't turn into ghouls , can mimic the Calling (Legacy) soul jump into other creatures...same deal as Archdemons.But they show sign of "intelligence" (sort of...) they didn't completly lost what was making them human.

Also, If your Inquisitor is Elvhen, Kieran also goes on to say that he doesn't know why the Inquisitor's people "want to look like that" and that their blood is "very old". This could be a reference to The Old Gods as well, or at the very least a hint that the Elvhen people could shapeshift at one point (perhaps in a time before the veil), the same way Flemythal and Morrigan (if you let her drink from the well of souls) did. It could also indicate an origin relating to spirits, who can also take the form of different things, based on desires of mortals as seen with the Avvar people. The fact that dragons are no more than beasts ruled by instinct is what makes me most suspicious. perhaps spirits are what gave them reason i.e. consciousness. When the veil was created, this was no longer possible as the spirit realm was separated from the "physical" realm.

If dragons ruled the skies before the veil, I wonder, would they then represent the Elvhen people. Let me elaborate. If the Elvhen people were dragons, then High Dragons maybe would represent the Elvhen High priests for example. I make this comparison because of the following quote (which ironically comes from an unlikely source and also brings forth many questions).

The Tome of Koslun, the sacred Qunari scripture explicitly says that "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men".

So The Elvhen Pantheon=Old Gods i.e. Great Dragons, High Dragons=Elvhen High Priests, Dragons=Elvhen People... just an interesting theory.

I don't believe elves were draconic in nature.
My current Theory (probably going to change next week ...I used to have a theory "the dwarves are elven golems" I'm glad I change my mind all the time )...the elves were probably following a same pattern as the dwarves.

Spoiler

If I understood Descent , and chances are I understood something wrong ...
You had the Stone , let's call Primal Matter.
Then You had the Titans , second children of the Stone.
Then You had the dwarves , the dwarves were gaining their immortality /powers from Titans , for all intent and purpose the Titans were the Godlike figures (because well the Stone is silent without Titans)
Something bad happened and dwarves were cut from the Titans , still their empire survived with this change until the darkspawn came.

If it's the same for elves , well you have the Fade as Primal Matter.
Then the Great Dragons are the Second children ( some version of the chant of Light says the Old Gods were part of the Maker First Children , citizen of the fade.)
Then you have the elves ...again they were linked to dragons , getting their immortality and power from them.blablabla

What I think happened is the elves got tired of dragons , found out maybe they could shapeshift and look like them ?
The whole Elgar'nan /mythal creation tale (I know Dalish lore LOL! like myahele said) could be a story about this...
Elgar'nan gets curious , he wants to discover the world (gain freewill , breaking the bond) the Sun (dragon figure) burns everything , trying to prove its dominance , Elgar'nan fight the sun and threw it underground (might be the story of the alpha dragons getting burried underground aka Old Gods) then things start to get dark , (breaking the bond , lost of immortality , magic maybe ) Mythal calm things down , stopping whatever dragons massacre was going on , she manages to tame a couple of beasts maybe or find way to preserve the big dragons souls (putting them to sleep , Mythal creating the moon ) then the sun rises again ( could be the Elven Gods now rising as the new dragons gods , via shapeshifting or simply Mythal preserving dragons)

It would ties with Flemythal busy saving old god souls ,and great dragons (via Yavana) ...it's possible without them the loss of magic would be complete for elves and maybe human and Qunari who tap into the fade.
It could also mean the elves lost their immortality and magic because someone messed up pretty badly with a couple of dragons they were linked to.
What also make me believe the Creators aren't responsible for this , is well Mythal was slained , and Solas killed her again (If I were her I would get pretty cynical about the whole getting murdered and betrayed...)
Solas likes magic and wants to restore the elven people.He also looses his cool about wardens slaying archdemon.
So I suppose unleashing the Blight and again getting those dragon killed , could be a good plan for vengeance or force people to come out of the shadows and act.

Now what makes me hesitant is that like Rezore57 points out, everything said about "The Forgotten Ones" could've been propaganda spread by the High Keepers of The Elvhen Pantheon (given they were quite fallible beings as well). Though all the different sources implicating them to live in "the void" and their association with disease, terror, spite and malevolence does strike me as extreme.


As for Geldauran, even if he claims that nature is not what makes one a god however, it still does not explain what the Elvhen Pantheon's nature is or is not. Geldauran could have simply meant that even if the "gods" were extremely powerful due to their "nature" it is not what makes one powerful. I think it was more of an insight into his beliefs and personality and him challenging their rule. I think he meant that his deeds would bring him to power, that he would match their nature with his deeds. He likens stature and position to principle and philosophy i.e. subject and object, actor and acted upon. He believes his will is the source of his strength and what defines a "title" i.e. being called a "god". I don't see the Pantheon being as the Elvhen people nor do I liken their powers to "parlor tricks" but I do believe they are much less then they were said to be.

Geldauran's nature however is what makes me hesitate with my theory. If he was just a powerful Ancient Elvhen mage who desired power and was disillusioned with the Elvhen Pantheon, then what of the void and the blight. Is the void or "blight magic" his alternative to rival the Elvhen Pantheon, is it of "The Forgotten Ones" or was it "claimed by them". Did his quest for power turn him into something more, or was he also of a similar nature to the Elvhen Pantheon?

Don't listen to me too much , I was sure about my elven Golem theory for months!
Again it's possible if the Creators managed to get linked to a couple of great dragons or knew the powers of great dragons...someone wanted the equivalent or wanted to mess with it.
In chantry lore I believe , the "void" is places left out of any creation , like places the Maker left alone.
It's possible if Titans and dragons hold the world together , killing a couple of them may have created places of "void".(My theory is Titans are responsible for keeping the reality of Thedas intact =even without the veil , magic has its limitation on the material world, because if not any powerful being could dream a different reality for Thedas.And then Thedas could end up a cheese wheel. now dragons were serving another purpose , probably more linked to the fade , or possible they are what keep mortal as in being of flesh and blood , possibly , anchoring people so they don't all end up spirit or whatver...I don't know!)
So maybe Elgar'nan screwed up back in the old days , he threw the sun in the abyss (again Dalish lore ,Lol!) he created darkness by doing this .Mythal often calls the blight "darkness" , and Mythal is the lightbringer in those tales.
Maybe they were ashamed and it was taboo to talk much about it...I suppose the Forgotten Ones wouldn't mind and would investigate the place.
Again the tale of Andruil , if it's talking about the Blight, made it sound like it wasn't the threat it is now.No talk of Andruil turning into a ghoul and dying an awful death , I mean it's like if in DAI we wrestled Cory , then Cory doesn't have the Blight anymore and then you drank tea with him saying "Don't ever go back to the Golden City again *abracadabra* see now you can't even remember where it is" and then the end .Peace.

The only thing that has me perplexed is the dark ritual. If Kieran has an Old God soul, what then, does that entail? FleMythal absorbs it into herself, but when she takes it out of Kieran, clearly it is immaterial, energy. This is the one flaw in my theory that is gnawing at me. Maybe "awakening" an Old God breaks Uthenera (like I speculated above, which could be a way to keep the Elvhen Pantheon in The Fade) and the soul is "awakened" and therefore restored, just corrupted by "The Forgotten Ones". That however, would be quite a sloppy way to have imprisoned such powerful beings. I doubt Fen'Harel went through the trouble of creating the veil with Mythal if it would have been so easy...

Don't know about the OGB .
He was feeling the presence of the soul , but it didn't seem to have a will on its own.
He could hear Flemythal calling him , but she could have used the fade I suppose , and he felt a compulsion to go.
He had dreams and I think Lyrium was giving him nightmares?He knows about a looot of stuff...the origin of all the races basically.
I doubt a forgotten Ones would like Mythal , she must have been the ennemy (but who knows).And why would she bother saving them?
A Creator maybe?The betrayal she screamed about made me believe she was slained by a Creator.I mean a Forgotten Ones slaying her would be an act of rebellion , not a betrayal.
Flemeth was betrayed by her husband .
I can imagine Elgar'nan doing it .I mean it seems to me she was the most beloved by the People , and she was keeping everyone in check , Elgar'nan was like a beast on a leash.Maybe he got sour , he's shown as violent and hot headed.
I don't remember any statue of Elgar'nan in Mythal temple , but there was probably a mosaic , I assume the sentinels would have draw penises on it or something if he killed their Goddess.
Solas also made not comment about him , it's strange because he was supposed to be the All Father and we got more lore about Andruil , Falon Din etc...

Anyway I think it's the soul of a great dragon and Flemythal is just on a trip to preserving old things like she taught Morrigan.

Again sorry if I go all over the place and the rant.

[FrankWisdom]

Again sorry if I go all over the place and the rant.

Man I read all of your stuff but it is one hell of a read. I could explain and answer a lot of your questions but it would take me all night. All I'll say is check this out. It's a more comprehensive list of my theories... about everything. ordered and numbered for ease of navigation and your convenience. If you like it, well give it a like and if you want to respond to something please just use the number and the quote you want to reply to. That way it'll be wayy easier to discuss theories, which I very much enjoy

 

Here's the link. http://forum.bioware...es-discussions/