Answers below in bold. Sorry if there's some grammatical mistakes, there's some words I'm not used to use in English.
Edit: And I somehow messed up the quote, yay. This is an answer to Hrulj a couple posts back.
Its not dogs. If dogs gained consciousness it would be evolution. Geth were machines, a dishwasher is more comparable. Secondly, geth bodies are just hardware. Destroying the hardware doesnt kill the geth. In the project overlord mission at the end, you can actualy see the geth leave the body just as you are killing them.
Also, the geth arent individuals. Only with reaper code upgrades the every geth body becomes a living person. Before that they are consciousness. Only way to kill geth is to destroy the servers, not bodies. Thus technicaly the Quarians havent killed a single geth.
Yeah, it's the same. For me, anything that's selfconcious and intelligent deserves to be treated as a person and respected as such. Yeah, Geth bodies are "just" hardware (we can technically say the same about humans, but that's another philosophical question beyond our point here), but if you side with the Quarians you're not just destroying their bodies, but their minds and their conciensces. And Geth have no sense of individual, but that doesn't mean they're not sentient entities.
As for genocide, you are also forgeting a very important point. There are no geth civilians. Every geth unit is capable of combat whereas Quarians have civilians. If in a war tomorrow entire US army is destroyed, every soldier killed, would that be genocide?
What do soldiers or civilians have to do with this? According to wordreference, a genocide is "the deliberate and systematic killing or murdering of a national, racial, political, or cultural group". If you side with the Quarian and kill every Geth, you're commiting genocide (and of course, it also works the other way around, if you side with the Geth).
What legion shows you, is also questionable. First, the Geth in the vids talk. Something no one ever heard of before you met legion, and legion is unique. He is not an everyday geth, but a geth built specificaly to communicate. Unless you are talking that the first geth were more advanced than modern geth 300 years later?
I agree what Legions shows you is more than likely one sided arguments, but again, what the Admirals tell you probably is too.
Quarians wear suits. Aparently Legion is showing you memories of the Geth. Why would Geth memories show Quarians in suits? And, if we follow legions explanation = you see them as you know them, why arent they different if we are romancing tali, which we probably saw naked. When my Shepard asked Legion about that, legion just mumbled something about it not maping to consensus
I think this is more Bioware not wanting/having resources or whatever to do an unsuited Quarian model.
An army without transports is useless. Colonies cant be evacuated, Krogan cant participate in a war without Quarians, whose every ship can be used to tranport organics.
You can get about 855 MS from Quarians if you make right choices. Which I think is equal to what geth give you with right choices.
I was talking about a greater military force from the lore point of view rather than from the game mechanic one. Yeah, the Quarian fleet is the biggest in the galaxy and has more than just guns, it has utility, as you said, but if we're comparing the military strenght of the Quarian fleet vs the Geth fleet as described by NPCs and Codex, I think Geth fleet it's stronger.
despite what the ME codex may say length is not the deciding factor that determines how powerful a magnetic accelerator weapon (ie a railgun) is. What matters is how much power you put into it and how efficient it is. The conservation of energy still applies despite the artificially reduced mass of the projectile.The energy put into the railgun will manifest itself in two forms, as the muzzle energy of the projectile, and as waste heat in the rails. "Lengthening" the rail simply increases the amount of acceleration the projectile can theoretically undergo, which increases it's maximum theoretical muzzle energy (with the constraint being the efficiency of the whole system). With a larger ship you can have a larger power supply which thus gives your railgun more energy. Also considering that geth ships don't need energy for life support (as in air and temperature control) its conceivable that they could focus more of the energy from their reactor into electricity powering their main mass accelerator cannon.
Yes tungten melts at high temperatures, but the beam the reapers use is clearly not pure molten tungsten. Molten tungsten would be white hot, not red. Red implies a temperature of only a few hundred degrees. As the heat of an object affects its radiance, an object heated to several thousand degrees would be bluish-white hot, which the beam of the reaper clearly is not.
And again, to account for that I gave the Geth dreadnought 200% more power than any alliance dreadnought. Its not the power of the ship we are discussing. Its the fact that it is only 1 ship, that is only capable of one thing. Quarians have 50 000 targets to offer and ability to transport tens of milions of anti-reaper soldiers or civilians anywhere in the galaxy before that battle.
Of course its not, as you said, its a mixture. If it is a mixture, that means that every component is liquid. I think the beam color is more of an oversight on part of Bioware than actual indicator for heat.
Answers below in bold. Sorry if there's some grammatical mistakes, there's some words I'm not used to use in English.
Edit: And I somehow messed up the quote, yay. This is an answer to Hrulj a couple posts back.
Its not dogs. If dogs gained consciousness it would be evolution. Geth were machines, a dishwasher is more comparable. Secondly, geth bodies are just hardware. Destroying the hardware doesnt kill the geth. In the project overlord mission at the end, you can actualy see the geth leave the body just as you are killing them.
Also, the geth arent individuals. Only with reaper code upgrades the every geth body becomes a living person. Before that they are consciousness. Only way to kill geth is to destroy the servers, not bodies. Thus technicaly the Quarians havent killed a single geth.
Yeah, it's the same. For me, anything that's selfconcious and intelligent deserves to be treated as a person and respected as such. Yeah, Geth bodies are "just" hardware (we can technically say the same about humans, but that's another philosophical question beyond our point here), but if you side with the Quarians you're not just destroying their bodies, but their minds and their conciensces. And Geth have no sense of individual, but that doesn't mean they're not sentient entities.
As for genocide, you are also forgeting a very important point. There are no geth civilians. Every geth unit is capable of combat whereas Quarians have civilians. If in a war tomorrow entire US army is destroyed, every soldier killed, would that be genocide?
What do soldiers or civilians have to do with this? According to wordreference, a genocide is "the deliberate and systematic killing or murdering of a national, racial, political, or cultural group". If you side with the Quarian and kill every Geth, you're commiting genocide (and of course, it also works the other way around, if you side with the Geth).
What legion shows you, is also questionable. First, the Geth in the vids talk. Something no one ever heard of before you met legion, and legion is unique. He is not an everyday geth, but a geth built specificaly to communicate. Unless you are talking that the first geth were more advanced than modern geth 300 years later?
I agree what Legions shows you is more than likely one sided arguments, but again, what the Admirals tell you probably is too.
Quarians wear suits. Aparently Legion is showing you memories of the Geth. Why would Geth memories show Quarians in suits? And, if we follow legions explanation = you see them as you know them, why arent they different if we are romancing tali, which we probably saw naked. When my Shepard asked Legion about that, legion just mumbled something about it not maping to consensus
I think this is more Bioware not wanting/having resources or whatever to do an unsuited Quarian model.
An army without transports is useless. Colonies cant be evacuated, Krogan cant participate in a war without Quarians, whose every ship can be used to tranport organics.
You can get about 855 MS from Quarians if you make right choices. Which I think is equal to what geth give you with right choices.
I was talking about a greater military force from the lore point of view rather than from the game mechanic one. Yeah, the Quarian fleet is the biggest in the galaxy and has more than just guns, it has utility, as you said, but if we're comparing the military strenght of the Quarian fleet vs the Geth fleet as described by NPCs and Codex, I think Geth fleet it's stronger.
The hardware point of organics depends on existance of God, heaven etc... Yes if God is proven to exist then that body is just hardware. But God is a question, while geth ability to do that, transfer their "soul" into another body as soon as body becomes available is a fact.
Its a question of numbers. Every Quarian is an individual. Every Quarian has their own oppinions, thoughts, experiences, loves, hates, etc..
Geth only have 3 persons trough history. The Geth, the "heretics" and Legion. At time of Rannoch, there is only 2. So the question is, would you rather kill 2 people, or 17 000 000?
Because there is no excuse to kill a child or someone who cant fight. Killing them shows the will of the perpetrator to exterminate then for who they are.
Killing all geth has an excuse, they are all capable of combat. Its neutralizing enemy combatants. We have never in human history faced an enemy that is 100% composed of combatants.
You dont need to follow admirals. Its probably better if you dont. But if you research for yourself, you will find that Quarians were forced into that war. The reapers are coming. They tried to settle Ekuna so that their civilians are safe while they help out against the reapers but council forced them out and gave the planet to Elcor. They cant carry their civilians with them. A defeat of the fleet with them onboard means death of Quarian race, while destruction of the fleet, with civilians left on Rannoch means not all is lost. None of this is shown in dialogue, because Bioware thought that Quarians would already be sympathetic enough due to Tali and previous game, and have focused on making Geth into Angels.
Then why are the Geth talking? They have no ability to talk or comunicate with Organics, beside the legion, and post reaper code upgrades. They didnt downgrade themselves after morning war. It leads me to believe legion is manipulating everything you see there.
No military force can stand up to reapers in conventional war. Even all fleets together cant stand up to them. Because of that its not the conventional forces that you need, its the utility and numbers. As has been said, Quarians can transport milions of soldiers and colonists, while Geth cant transport anyone
"But legion doesnt have individuality. Nor do any geth before the upgrade. Legion says so himself in ME:2. He is on the other hand a communication unit capable of learning. It is highly probable that he would know what needs to be said, even if he holds no such beliefs himself."
As soon as you start a dialogue on a premise which is to your knowledge, false (i.e. telling a lie), you are able to exercise independent judgement. This seems factually accurate in ME3.
I think therefore I am.
If Mordin Solus was still alive he might have been interested enough to investigate further.
Quarians tried to settle Ekuna at the turn of the century. It still makes the council massive jerks and stupid again but it wasn´t "what you want to drop your civilians at a safe place before going to war against the Reapers? We can´t have that."
Oh, I was very much not talking about any God. I meant an hypothetical, more like sci-fi scenario where they can preserve your conscience with your body gone (think the heads from Futurama).
And saying there's only 3 Geth is like saying there's only 5 humans on Earth, one for each continent. They no concept of an individual and work on a consensus but by no means they are one. When you talk to Legion he refers to "himself" as we. Quarians have individuals, are a countable noun, Geth doesn't, it's an uncountable noun. It's like saying apples and salt. You can have one, three or eleven apples, but you can't have five salts. You can have x ammount of salt though, and that's how Geth work, in Legion's platform there's over a thousand programs working in consensus. Killing the Geth is as bad as killing the Quarians, since you're killing an entire race either case. Again, I'm not defending siding with the Geth is the good option, but that none of them is a true good option.
Oh, I was very much not talking about any God. I meant an hypothetical, more like sci-fi scenario where they can preserve your conscience with your body gone (think the heads from Futurama).
And saying there's only 3 Geth is like saying there's only 5 humans on Earth, one for each continent. They no concept of an individual and work on a consensus but by no means they are one. When you talk to Legion he refers to "himself" as we. Quarians have individuals, are a countable noun, Geth doesn't, it's an uncountable noun. It's like saying apples and salt. You can have one, three or eleven apples, but you can't have five salts. You can have x ammount of salt though, and that's how Geth work, in Legion's platform there's over a thousand programs working in consensus. Killing the Geth is as bad as killing the Quarians, since you're killing an entire race either case. Again, I'm not defending siding with the Geth is the good option, but that none of them is a true good option.
If that is available to everyone and it was possible to easily install your consciousness to any other human body, then yes. It would be equal.
No it is not I am afraid, since humans are not led by concensus, humans are individuals, whereas a single geth, if taken away far beyond the reach of comm buoys is less inteligent than a varren. As such, concensus is Geth. There is no I, one we, the concensus. As such, there is only 3 geth in history, and 2 by the time of ME:3. Only after reaper code upgrade does every Geth become a person. As such, as simply counting, is it better to kill 2 that cant feel pain or sadness or any other feeling for that matter, or 17 000 000 who can feel and who cant be rebuilt
The Quarians are always the aggressor. They tried to exterminate the Geth out of sheer prejudice, try to shut down their own people who defy them and they launched an open war out of desperation bid to reclaim their homeworld. Two hundred years later, they do it again and they're pinned down again. Now they want a neutral party (you, again) to help them get out of their mess again. Bad decisions from the start.
I would choose Geth if it wasn't for Tali.
and I always get the paragon/renegade dialogues in all my playthroughs so I'm not choosing either anyway.. remember, 'neutral party'. Get your sh*t together and why must I decide things for you.. pffft
The Quarians are always the aggressor. They tried to exterminate the Geth out of sheer prejudice, try to shut down their own people who defy them and they launched an open war out of desperation bid to reclaim their homeworld. Two hundred years later, they do it again and they're pinned down again. Now they want a neutral party (you, again) to help them get out of their mess again. Bad decisions from the start.
I would choose Geth if it wasn't for Tali.
Tali's the voice of reason within the Quarians. By choosing the Geth, I'm showing that I agree with her.
Well that's the sad story: even after telling the Quarians that they may be wrong, they followed their agressives impulses and decided to attack. So...Well since it is a game and I was playing paragon, and I even let Mordin cure the genophage...I allowed the Geth to use the code to become individual-like. So we lost the fleet and the quarians...I guess that Salarians may figure that an army of Geth may be of use against a booming krogan population...
Hardly. As Han'Gerrel argues in ME2, where do you expect the quarians to put all the civilian noncombatants that are not only taking up space in the cargo holds of their ships and thus greatly reducing their utility to the war effort, but also are in the line of fire when the ships are used for combat operations? Do you honestly expect the quarians to not only operate at greatly reduced efficiency, but potentially extinct themselves in the Reaper war for the interest of everyone but themselves? The plan they had involved answering these questions with virtually zero risk to themselves due to non Reaperized geth posing no threat. Its only flaw was unforseen Reaper intervention which required the geth to willingly enslave themselves to beings who were also going to wipe them out anyway for some reason, in the hope that the quarians wouldn't wipe them out (Xzibit logic anyone?).
Yes. It is stupid. Where do I expect the Quarians to put their noncombatants? On other ships. I mean, it's not like the Quarians just got booted from their planet. This has been for generations. Like so long that some people don't remember what the Quarians look like without their masks. If they STILL haven't made enough ships to separate noncombatants from combatants, that's even more reason they aren't ready to fight. I mean, I'm not going to lie, when I heard that this was still a problem, I was almost baffled by the level of insanity I had just heard.
Potentially extincting themselves IS worth it in this case. If everyone loses to the reapers, they are extinct anyways. The plan they had in ME3 involves time that they don't have when the reapers are AT the door. Had the Quarians grabbed the pitchforks in ME1 or ME2? Fine, I'd have no problems here. But ME3!? Why!? Those priorities are really backwards.
It seems discussions about the geth always get down to whether or not they're living, sentient beings capable of evolving and/or growing through experience. And you wouldn't be the first people to debate over it.
In the end, do you believe the geth are sentient? Do you believe they were a newly born race who were unaware of why they were being deactivated/killed and did the only thing they conceded was the best way to end the conflict--eliminate the threat completely? Do you believe they learned from that experience and that uploading the advanced Reaper code helped them to fully comprehend what happened and how they can handle such a scenario better in future circumstances?
In any case, Shepard is given less than half a minute to decide whether or not to let the geth upload the code. If Shepard chooses to let them upload, s/he will still appeal to Tali, telling her to try and get the Admiralty to end their attack in turn for a ceasefire. The decision to live or die was ultimately up to the Admiralty, and they choose to keep fighting at the cost of their own people. So in in-game definitions, it's not like Shepard proactively decided with the geth/against the quarians. S/he just saw an opportunity and took it, and was met with uncontrollable results.
Yes. It is stupid. Where do I expect the Quarians to put their noncombatants? On other ships. I mean, it's not like the Quarians just got booted from their planet. This has been for generations. Like so long that some people don't remember what the Quarians look like without their masks. If they STILL haven't made enough ships to separate noncombatants from combatants, that's even more reason they aren't ready to fight. I mean, I'm not going to lie, when I heard that this was still a problem, I was almost baffled by the level of insanity I had just heard.
Potentially extincting themselves IS worth it in this case. If everyone loses to the reapers, they are extinct anyways. The plan they had in ME3 involves time that they don't have when the reapers are AT the door. Had the Quarians grabbed the pitchforks in ME1 or ME2? Fine, I'd have no problems here. But ME3!? Why!? Those priorities are really backwards.
Thus losing utility. Where will those ships with civilians be? Separated from heavy and patrol fleet and easy prey for pirates and other enemies?
Their plan was sound. In 17 days they liberated 4 star systems. Without reaper intervention by day 20 they would probably be done with the Geth, and able to assist with the war against reapers
The Quarians are always the aggressor. They tried to exterminate the Geth out of sheer prejudice,
Wrong. They attempted to turn off a computer that was behaving oddly and fix it. If your computer randomly asked you if it had a soul, your first impulse would be to hit the power button, no?
try to shut down their own people who defy them
You mean like Wrex does on Tuchanka? He gets praise heaped upon him for that, remember?
they launched an open war out of desperation bid to reclaim their homeworld.
As did every other race when fighting the Reapers.
Two hundred years later, they do it again and they're pinned down again.
They were annihilating the Geth before the Geth decided to abandon their moral principles and chow down on some Reaper code. Which makes the Geth simply a tool of the Reapers.
Now they want a neutral party (you, again) to help them get out of their mess again.
That's what Shepard DOES. He kills Reaper-controlled enemies and saves races. It's no different than fighting indoctrinated Cerberus members.
If that is available to everyone and it was possible to easily install your consciousness to any other human body, then yes. It would be equal.
No it is not I am afraid, since humans are not led by concensus, humans are individuals, whereas a single geth, if taken away far beyond the reach of comm buoys is less inteligent than a varren. As such, concensus is Geth. There is no I, one we, the concensus. As such, there is only 3 geth in history, and 2 by the time of ME:3. Only after reaper code upgrade does every Geth become a person. As such, as simply counting, is it better to kill 2 that cant feel pain or sadness or any other feeling for that matter, or 17 000 000 who can feel and who cant be rebuilt
You cannot think of terms of "a single geth" and how intelligent it would be, since there is no such thing as a single geth, but multiple of them working together. And for the claim that there's only two geth, I already answered to that:
And saying there's only 3 Geth is like saying there's only 5 humans on Earth, one for each continent. They have no concept of an individual and work on a consensus but by no means they are one. When you talk to Legion he refers to "himself" as we. Quarians have individuals, are a countable noun, Geth doesn't, it's an uncountable noun. It's like saying apples and salt. You can have one, three or eleven apples, but you can't have five salts. You can have x ammount of salt though, and that's how Geth work, in Legion's platform there's over a thousand programs working in consensus.
You won't be killing 2 or 3 Geth, but their entire race, which, despite not having individuals, is compossed by millions (or tens of millions or whatever the number is) of programs working in consensus. And that can, by the way, feel. Legion says they regret some of their actions. Don't having the same feelings as you or me doesn't mean they don't have any.
You cannot think of terms of "a single geth" and how intelligent it would be, since there is no such thing as a single geth, but multiple of them working together. And for the claim that there's only two geth, I already answered to that:
You won't be killing 2 or 3 Geth, but their entire race, which, despite not having individuals, is compossed by millions (or tens of millions or whatever the number is) of programs working in consensus. And that can, by the way, feel. Legion says they regret some of their actions. Don't having the same feelings as you or me doesn't mean they don't have any.
Human races arent equal to geth. Not all white people think the same and act the same based on central white man decision making unit. Or any other race for that matter. Think of individual geth as cells. When I say there is only 2 geth, that is what it is. Those milions of geth in existance are just cells. Unless you are counting cells in Quarians, then counting individual geth is senseless. Consciousneses are all you can count, and there are only 2. When Geth Primes join you in fighter squadron mission, legion says himself - they, are now we, implying himself
Cells in a human or quarian body can't subdivide to form multiple organisms, though. Cells can't divide in two or more groups by opinion while trying to reach consensus.
You are trying to humanize the Geth, when they're absolutely diferent to any organic race. And saying they're the ones that should die because they're different it's not really a good argument.
Cells in a human or quarian body can't subdivide to form multiple organisms, though. Cells can't divide in two or more groups by opinion while trying to reach consensus.
You are trying to humanize the Geth, when they're absolutely diferent to any organic race. And saying they're the ones that should die because they're different it's not really a good argument.
Cancer divides the cells, just like concensus divided the geth into heretics and others.
I am not trying to humanize them, others are, which is why they are claiming that death of 2 geth consciousness is equal or worse than death of 17 000 000 Quarians because of milions of cells that will shut down by doing that
Wrong. They attempted to turn off a computer that was behaving oddly and fix it. If your computer randomly asked you if it had a soul, your first impulse would be to hit the power button, no?
I've got Windows 10. Maybe when I get home (if I remember) I'll ask Cortana if she has a soul.
Cancer divides the cells, just like concensus divided the geth into heretics and others.
I am not trying to humanize them, others are, which is why they are claiming that death of 2 geth consciousness is equal or worse than death of 17 000 000 Quarians because of milions of cells that will shut down by doing that
Yeah, no. You're comparing an uncontroled process with a concious one. Cells don't have self conscience or intelligence, Geth do.
And by humanizing I meant assigning them behaviors or traits that humans (or other organics in this case) have but synthetics do not. I'm not humanazing them, but treating them as selfconscious, intelligent beings, which is what they are.
In the end it only comes to that, imho. If they are intelligent and conscient beings, mass murdering them is wrong (as wrong as it is mass murdering the quarians, of course).
Yeah, no. You're comparing an uncontroled process with a concious one. Cells don't have self conscience or intelligence, Geth do.
And by humanizing I meant assigning them behaviors or traits that humans (or other organics in this case) have but synthetics do not. I'm not humanazing them, but treating them as selfconscious, intelligent beings, which is what they are.
In the end it only comes to that, imho. If they are intelligent and conscient beings, mass murdering them is wrong (as wrong as it is mass murdering the quarians, of course).
A single Geth is no more intelligent or self-conscious than a Varren.
Definition of murder "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another" according to Google. Er applying it to Mass Effect it'd probably change to "organic being" or "living being". Geth aren't organic or alive, and killing Geth isn't exactly unlawful (especially for a Spectre) since it happens a lot in all 3 games. So it isn't murder. It's rendering them non-functional. A bit like idk turning off a lot of ovens.
A single Geth is no more intelligent or self-conscious than a Varren.
Again, there is no thing as a single Geth, they have no individuals, just agroupations working in consensus, so speaking of a single Geth is pointless since such thing doesn't exist.
Definition of murder "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another" according to Google. Er applying it to Mass Effect it'd probably change to "organic being" or "living being". Geth aren't organic or alive, and killing Geth isn't exactly unlawful (especially for a Spectre) since it happens a lot in all 3 games. So it isn't murder. It's rendering them non-functional. A bit like idk turning off a lot of ovens.
If you think Geth aren't alive...well, that's your opinion I guess, but I'm thankful we're are discussing an hypothetical thing in a videogame and not a real live thing.
Again, there is no thing as a single Geth, they have no individuals, just agroupations working in consensus, so speaking of a single Geth is pointless since such thing doesn't exist.
If you think Geth aren't alive...well, that's your opinion I guess, but I'm thankful we're are discussing an hypothetical thing in a videogame and not a real live thing.
If a single Geth cannot exist, how can a group of them exist? A group is, by definition, made up of individuals.
Geth is a noun that describes a group. A family it's composed by a certain amount of persons, but any of those persons by themselves alone aren't a family. Same way, a Geth is composed by multiple programs/subroutines/processes/whatever, which individually aren't a Geth, but together they are one.
Retour en haut
