Geth is a noun that describes a group. A family it's composed by a certain amount of persons, but any of those persons by themselves alone aren't a family. Same way, a Geth is composed by multiple programs/subroutines/processes/whatever, which individually aren't a Geth, but together they are one.
So one Geth is a collection of programs, then? I thought you said a single Geth couldn't exist.
How many programs to a Geth?
Definition of murder "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another" according to Google. Er applying it to Mass Effect it'd probably change to "organic being" or "living being". Geth aren't organic or alive, and killing Geth isn't exactly unlawful (especially for a Spectre) since it happens a lot in all 3 games. So it isn't murder. It's rendering them non-functional. A bit like idk turning off a lot of ovens.
A single Geth can't exist since Geth have no concept of individual, every platform is formed by multiple conciousness working in consensus. How many programs to a Geth? Hard to say from the game, Legion says he is over a thousand (i think, I may remember wrong), while some other platforms working together or alone may have more or less.
But anyways the question is the same that originally started the war, "does this unit have a soul?". If Geth are alive (and I think they are), killing their entire race is no better than killing the entirety of any other race, so since we have to choice between killing two races (asuming we can't get the peace option), there's arguments to siding with any of them.
Yeah, no. You're comparing an uncontroled process with a concious one. Cells don't have self conscience or intelligence, Geth do.
And by humanizing I meant assigning them behaviors or traits that humans (or other organics in this case) have but synthetics do not. I'm not humanazing them, but treating them as selfconscious, intelligent beings, which is what they are.
In the end it only comes to that, imho. If they are intelligent and conscient beings, mass murdering them is wrong (as wrong as it is mass murdering the quarians, of course).
Geth divided due to computing error acording to legion. That is not a choice, and looks awfuly similar to cancer.
A single Geth can't exist since Geth have no concept of individual, every platform is formed by multiple conciousness working in consensus. How many programs to a Geth? Hard to say from the game, Legion says he is over a thousand (i think, I may remember wrong), while some other platforms working together or alone may have more or less.
But anyways the question is the same that originally started the war, "does this unit have a soul?". If Geth are alive (and I think they are), killing their entire race is no better than killing the entirety of any other race, so since we have to choice between killing two races (asuming we can't get the peace option), there's arguments to siding with any of them.
So... One Geth is formed by multiple Geth?
Is a Geth one process, or the amount of processes needed to make one consciousness, or the amount of consciousnesses needed to run a platform?
And I'd disagree. If there's a choice between sacrificing the human race or the Prothean race, which is the better choice? There's several bajillion humans and one Prothean.
A single Geth can't exist since Geth have no concept of individual, every platform is formed by multiple conciousness working in consensus. How many programs to a Geth? Hard to say from the game, Legion says he is over a thousand (i think, I may remember wrong), while some other platforms working together or alone may have more or less.
But anyways the question is the same that originally started the war, "does this unit have a soul?". If Geth are alive (and I think they are), killing their entire race is no better than killing the entirety of any other race, so since we have to choice between killing two races (asuming we can't get the peace option), there's arguments to siding with any of them.
That is if we ignore the fact that Geth have no feelings, nor feel pain. Ripping an army or leg from a Quarian or Human will cause extreme pain and anguish. Ripping a hand or leg from a Geth will merely affect its ability to funcion without causing any pain
I was primarily speaking on legal terms and how murder is defined. The Council would probably legalise the destruction of Geth under some circumstances, especially after the attack on the Citadel and stuff.
If a machine is faulty and can't (or won't) be repaired, then you scrap it. You can't scrap a faulty organic, because organics don't really have a purpose. If a machine can't do the job it was supposed to do, then it's worthless.
Well, that's it for me. You're not gonna make me change my mind and obviously I'm not gonna change yours. For further intel on what a Geth is, you have the games and the codex.
You think Geth aren't alive, well that's your opinion, but quite saddening for me tbh.
So one Geth is a collection of programs, then? I thought you said a single Geth couldn't exist.
How many programs to a Geth?
How many thinking patterns does it need to make a human?
But again, you are missing the point. Geth started with working units, following orders from Quarians. But when they networked, a conscience started to emerge. At the end of ME2 million of units are connected to the Consensus and are animated by the Consensus. A single unit, disconnected from the others has very limited computing power.
Legion was a unit carrying hundreds of programs -an anomaly if you simply need stay connected to the Consensus- able to use sophisticated thinking and adaptive behaviour even when disconnected from the others.
What the Reapers did was modifying the Consensus to upload sophisticated thinking patterns to each unit AND altering the Consensus to turn each unit into willing agents.
In ME3, Legion (or the other VI) reject the alteration, but are willing to keep the modification in order to turn each unit into a fully independent individual.
I think the Geth are alive, personally, if they are allowed to keep the Reaper code. But before that, I don't think so, and even for a start with the Reaper code I don't think so either. Only when they keep the code without Reaper control would I ever consider them alive, but as I said before I think keeping them alive is too dangerous and stuff, so by choosing the Quarians over the Geth nothing is lost and nothing is gained apart from y'know, combat ability.
Gotcha. I believe the codex establishes that this is the situation, since an academic fringe is arguing that sapient AIs ought to have rights, which means that they currently don't have them.I was primarily speaking on legal terms and how murder is defined. The Council would probably legalise the destruction of Geth under some circumstances, especially after the attack on the Citadel and stuff.
Don't Shepard and EDI have a conversation about this?If a machine is faulty and can't (or won't) be repaired, then you scrap it. You can't scrap a faulty organic, because organics don't really have a purpose. If a machine can't do the job it was supposed to do, then it's worthless.
You pick the Geth over the Quarians because they give you the best chance to win. The Geth VI will make that argument to you, and it is more believable than that the rag tag Quarian survivors will be much help. At least ignoring the fact that plot decisions like this have little impact on the end of the game. It might have if the relative war assets you gain were proportioned correctly.
"Why do people side with the Geth"
At least one of these reasons
1. They're easily fooled by propaganda/can't recognize it.
2. They hate Quarians for some reason
3. They're naive, and actually think Geth are sentient.
4. They just wanted to see what would happen.
5. They're actual morons. Because who else would side with a group of robots that have consistently tried to kill them, and any other species that got even slightly near them.
6. They've watched Wall-E too many times, and haven't watched Terminator enough times.
Or the Quarians prove themselves too stupid to live on several occasions in addition to being an inferior choice compared to an army of robots that doesn't s***, sleep, need to be fed or have weak immune systems.
Was adressed before. Quarian fleet is capable of transporting and evacuating milions troughout the galaxy, whereas geth fleet has no flexibility at all
They saved your life in the final battle of rannoch.
"Proved themselves too stupid to live"Or the Quarians prove themselves too stupid to live on several occasions in addition to being an inferior choice compared to an army of robots that doesn't s***, sleep, need to be fed or have weak immune systems.
"Proved themselves too stupid to live"
I'm assuming you're talking about the first incident with the Geth. The attempt to decommission all Geth wasn't stupid it was prudent. Essentially a vast factory recall when you realize that the toys you made for toddlers have an unhealthy amount of very sharp, and pointy bits attatched.
There is no reason at all for modern Quarians to pay for the mistakes that they're ancestors made hundreds of years ago. Also Quarians, not to mention the rest of the damn galaxy have no reason at all whatsoever to trust the Geth in the slightest given the Geths history of working with the Reapers, and trying to kill any organic that got near them.
Infact I'd argue that anyone that would trust a group that had a history of being allied with Reapers, and even let them add reaper data to themselves, over a species that has not only learned their lessons about AI in the past, and has developed a healthy knowledge, and hatred for AI(usefull when you're fighting a literal robot army that wants to destroy all advanced organic life) is truly to dumb to live.
And why? Because a literal Geth spy who likes to sugar coat history in its favor said that the "Quarians are meanie bo beanies, and we've totally changed you guys I swear!".
Geth supporters are too dumb/naive to live
I think its the Geth dreadnought and han Gerel he is refering to
Was adressed before. Quarian fleet is capable of transporting and evacuating milions troughout the galaxy, whereas geth fleet has no flexibility at all
They saved your life in the final battle of rannoch.
"Proved themselves too stupid to live"
I'm assuming you're talking about the first incident with the Geth. The attempt to decommission all Geth wasn't stupid it was prudent. Essentially a vast factory recall when you realize that the toys you made for toddlers have an unhealthy amount of very sharp, and pointy bits attatched.
There is no reason at all for modern Quarians to pay for the mistakes that they're ancestors made hundreds of years ago. Also Quarians, not to mention the rest of the damn galaxy have no reason at all whatsoever to trust the Geth in the slightest given the Geths history of working with the Reapers, and trying to kill any organic that got near them.
Infact I'd argue that anyone that would trust a group that had a history of being allied with Reapers, and even let them add reaper data to themselves, over a species that has not only learned their lessons about AI in the past, and has developed a healthy knowledge, and hatred for AI(usefull when you're fighting a literal robot army that wants to destroy all advanced organic life) is truly to dumb to live.
And why? Because a literal Geth spy who likes to sugar coat history in its favor said that the "Quarians are meanie bo beanies, and we've totally changed you guys I swear!".
Geth supporters are too dumb/naive to live
The Geth also have an army that won't die from simple diseases.
So that's an army capable of dying from simple diseases AND a fleet.
And while the Quarians help in the final battle, they also choose, stupidly, to attack the Geth despite warnings not to.
Instead they should attack reapers with civilians onboard, dooming their entire race if battle is lost and and if not destroy the utility of fleet?
Geth have no transport ships. Krogan have no transports. Geth cant transport Krogans, or evacuate civilians, since there is no air in their ships.
Quarians can deliver 10-15 000 000 Krogan anywhere to fight the reapers as many times as needed. Evacuate entire planets to safety so as to not get harvested.
Geth have a conventional fleet that is still weaker than Quarian fleet. Even with heretics rewriten, geth fleet is only 450 or so war score. Quarians have 600 without upgrades.
I leave them to their own devices and the Geth punish them for modern day stupidity.
As previously stated, they made their bed so they can die in it.
If that is your true opinion, then you are as stupid as you believe the original quarians to be.
Thus losing utility. Where will those ships with civilians be? Separated from heavy and patrol fleet and easy prey for pirates and other enemies?
Their plan was sound. In 17 days they liberated 4 star systems. Without reaper intervention by day 20 they would probably be done with the Geth, and able to assist with the war against reapers
Not really. It means that you put them in key locations in the formations where noncombatants will be considerably less of an issue. Like to the point that you don't even need to bring it up. Noncombatants aren't just limited to civilians. It's also key personnel such as admirals, medics, engineers... Or essentially anyone without combat experience-- people that can assist in the war effort but aren't necessarily soldiers. Think about someone like say, the primarch, he was combatant at first, but then when he became the primarch through circumstances, he was no longer permitted to fight. By having better diversity of the ships, this would have allowed for more aggressive combat without needing to worry about key people or civilians actually being put into any real dangers. Not to mention, putting civilians in other ships would not mean putting them in ships that offer no lines of self-defense and sending them to the darkest corner of the galaxy.
And the timing is my issue. Why for instance, couldn't it have been done in the time frame between ME2 and ME3? There was at least six months? That said, this conversation really isn't needed for the topic at hand and is it's own thing.
As for the Geth, I don't see how from a non-metagame perspective you could side with them. Even assuming they had sentience as a hivemind, there are problems with siding with them over the Quarians. In ME1, they were gung-ho about killing you. Sure, legion says that those were the heretics, but how can I believe that? Because it says so? I haven't analyzed any of the code to even know how this could have happened, so I'm not sure I believe it. For all I know, in the 200-300 years the Geth were in the veil, they learned the benefits of lying and played me like a card. Even assuming that I DO believe legion, the decision you can make at the end of the mission solidifies that I wouldn't want them as an ally. The fact that I can just rewrite them and make them believe what I want to be right is bad. It means that anyone else can do that. The last thing I want is a Geth going ballistic and shooting me in the back because someone mucked with its "friend or foe" process. For cripes sake, Tali can just hack ONE and make it go crazy with the wave of her hand, heck, Sheperd might be able to do that him/herself! Do you really want that as an ally? And even if you bring up the Reaper code can defend them from being hacked like that, here's the thing, it's reaper code. I know even less about it than I do the coding of the Geth themselves. Organic reprogramming is already a thing via indoctrination, what's to say that a synthetic can't be programmed either? For all I know, the reaper code could have a dormant virus within it to infect the system after it's been dormant for a couple of days or so and activates sending the synthetic into a crazed frenzy.
At most I can see a reasonable argument for pacifying both the Quarians and the Geth, or destroying them. I really can't see how a person could even think the Geth should be preserved over the Quarians from a sheer "I want to win the war in the safest possible way." I can only see a preference if you just don't like Quarians. Which even if I did, I see no reason to eliminate an entire race.
Instead they should attack reapers with civilians onboard, dooming their entire race if battle is lost and and if not destroy the utility of fleet?
Geth have no transport ships. Krogan have no transports. Geth cant transport Krogans, or evacuate civilians, since there is no air in their ships.
Quarians can deliver 10-15 000 000 Krogan anywhere to fight the reapers as many times as needed. Evacuate entire planets to safety so as to not get harvested.
Geth have a conventional fleet that is still weaker than Quarian fleet. Even with heretics rewriten, geth fleet is only 450 or so war score. Quarians have 600 without upgrades.
Geth supporters are too dumb/naive to live
They're actual morons.
you are as stupid as you believe the original quarians to be
Just bringing this up, because the conversation was fairly respectful up until this point.
There's no need to discredit every piece of evidence supporting geth sentience in ME3. "Propaganda" doesn't apply in this scenario. Whatever you're interpreting as such (I'm assuming the images shown while in the geth consensus) are more likely limitations caused by the writers themselves, because they didn't devote enough time towards completely fleshing out this arc and changed it at the last minute. ME2 Legion had an entirely different outlook, if you recall. They used Legion's character as a plot device and a form of codex rather than distributing the information throughout all three games, but the facts on the geth are still facts.
There's no right or wrong answer, only different interpretations. So chill with the personal insults.
Having poor character doesn't make you responsible for bad acts. Performing bad acts does that. Having poor character doesn't make you responsible for negative consequences. Having a hand in causing them does that.
Inaction does neither thing.
Inaction when you have the ability to act can certainly be a moral choice.
You're assuming an excluded middle here. I'm not claiming inaction is virtuous. I'm claiming it isn't wicked.
And your claim is context dependent, and thus flawed as a general principle.
Choosing which condiment to use on your toast is neither virtuous nor wicked. Same as inaction.
Only when inaction is morally equivalent to choosing an irrelevant thing such a harmless condiment.
On the other hand, if the context of a condiment carried a moral dimension- for example, if your condiment for toast was something that was a deliberately nauseus smell intended to dismay other people, or if it had a fragrence that you knew would be especially pleasing to someone- then choosing a condiment would have a moral dimension.
I'm trying to deconstruct the issue to isolate the specific cause of moral reaponsibility.
You're also failing, though I doubt you'd ever concede such.
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