Aller au contenu

Photo

Why do people side with the Geth?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
233 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Hrulj

Hrulj
  • Members
  • 277 messages

Not really. It means that you put them in key locations in the formations where noncombatants will be considerably less of an issue. Like to the point that you don't even need to bring it up. Noncombatants aren't just limited to civilians. It's also key personnel such as admirals, medics, engineers... Or essentially anyone without combat experience-- people that can assist in the war effort but aren't necessarily soldiers. Think about someone like say, the primarch, he was combatant at first, but then when he became the primarch through circumstances, he was no longer permitted to fight.  By having better diversity of the ships, this would have allowed for more aggressive combat without needing to worry about key people or civilians actually being put into any real dangers. Not to mention, putting civilians in other ships would not mean putting them in ships that offer no lines of self-defense and sending them to the darkest corner of the galaxy.   

 

And the timing is my issue. Why for instance, couldn't it have been done in the time frame between ME2 and ME3? There was at least six months? That said, this conversation really isn't needed for the topic at hand and is it's own thing. 

 

As for the Geth, I don't see how from a non-metagame perspective you could side with them. Even assuming they had sentience as a hivemind, there are problems with siding with them over the Quarians. In ME1, they were gung-ho about killing you. Sure, legion says that those were the heretics, but how can I believe that? Because it says so? I haven't analyzed any of the code to even know how this could have happened, so I'm not sure I believe it. For all I know, in the 200-300 years the Geth were in the veil, they learned the benefits of lying and played me like a card. Even assuming that I DO believe legion, the decision you can make at the end of the mission solidifies that I wouldn't want them as an ally. The fact that I can just rewrite them and make them believe what I want to be right is bad. It means that anyone else can do that. The last thing I want is a Geth going ballistic and shooting me in the back because someone mucked with its "friend or foe" process. For cripes sake, Tali can just hack ONE and make it go crazy with the wave of her hand, heck, Sheperd might be able to do that him/herself! Do you really want that as an ally? And even if you bring up the Reaper code can defend them from being hacked like that, here's the thing, it's reaper code. I know even less about it than I do the coding of the Geth themselves. Organic reprogramming is already a thing via indoctrination, what's to say that a synthetic can't be programmed either? For all I know, the reaper code could have a dormant virus within it to infect the system after it's been dormant for a couple of days or so and activates sending the synthetic into a crazed frenzy.

 

At most I can see a reasonable argument for pacifying both the Quarians and the Geth, or destroying them. I really can't see how a person could even think the Geth should be preserved over the Quarians from a sheer "I want to win the war in the safest possible way." I can only see a preference if you just don't like Quarians. Which even if I did, I see no reason to eliminate an entire race. 

 

Most of Quarian fleet is civilians. They have no Dreadnoughts nor numerous warships to provide cover for civilians.  Without liveship cannons they have no way to counter heavy enemy ships. The fact that the loses were minimal, and victories great shows strategic briliance. Use what you have. 

 

As for timing, I am guessing it would remove a lot of player agency. I remember in ME:1 having 2 great wishes. To cure the genophage and get Quarians a homeworld. And I can say that in the 3rd game I had a chance to do both. Yes there is a pro-Geth bias in the game and even developers admited that they have overdone it, since they just wanted to make the choice difficult but instead got more people chosing geth than Quarians, but regardless of that, I had a chance to do something I have wanted to do for about 4 years.

 

You seem to be using WA points when they support your preferred conclusion and avoiding the use of them when they don't.

WA are roughly equal, I think Quarians have maybe 10 points more than Geth if pro Quarian choices were made previously, than Geth would have if pro-Geth choices were made.

The point of argument is role play, or watching the conflict and result from a realistic point.



#102
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 108 messages

Inaction when you have the ability to act can certainly be a moral choice.

How? The ability alone has no material effect. It literally makes no measurable difference.

So what is the source of the moral relevance?

Only when inaction is morally equivalent to choosing an irrelevant thing such a harmless condiment.

On the other hand, if the context of a condiment carried a moral dimension- for example, if your condiment for toast was something that was a deliberately nauseus smell intended to dismay other people, or if it had a fragrence that you knew would be especially pleasing to someone- then choosing a condiment would have a moral dimension.

Because it would have a material effect, and thus would no longer be analogous.

But the ability to act doesn't.

You're also failing, though I doubt you'd ever concede such.

How would you do it?

#103
Dantriges

Dantriges
  • Members
  • 1 288 messages

I've got Windows 10. Maybe when I get home (if I remember) I'll ask Cortana if she has a soul.

 

So what was the answer?



#104
Monica21

Monica21
  • Members
  • 5 603 messages

So what was the answer?

 

I forgot! So I just did it now.

 

Me: Do you have a soul?

Cortana: Artificially intelligent types like me can't experience spirituality.

Me: Are you a true artificial intelligence?

Cortana: A circle may be infinite but my answers are not.


  • Flaine1996 et Dantriges aiment ceci

#105
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 768 messages

 

 

 

Only when inaction is morally equivalent to choosing an irrelevant thing such a harmless condiment.

 

On the other hand, if the context of a condiment carried a moral dimension- for example, if your condiment for toast was something that was a deliberately nauseus smell intended to dismay other people, or if it had a fragrence that you knew would be especially pleasing to someone- then choosing a condiment would have a moral dimension.

 

So basically: what we see in Breaking Bad Season 2's conclusion, with Jane Marghoulis.  



#106
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 649 messages

How? The ability alone has no material effect. It literally makes no measurable difference.
So what is the source of the moral relevance?

Because with the ability you can choose between the two different outcomes, and without it you can't?

Il Divo's got the right example here. Are you familiar with the series? Everyone involved with the show agreed that Walt's actions were tantamount to murder; IIRC the AMC execs warned Vince Gilligan (the showrunner) that Walt couldn't ever come back from this in the audience's perception,and Gilligan's response was that it was fine, because he didn't want Walt to come back from it.

(However, as Walt accidentally caused Jane to get into the situation in the first place, his refusal to remove her from it might still make him morally responsible in your terms.)
  • Il Divo aime ceci

#107
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 108 messages

Because with the ability you can choose between the two different outcomes, and without it you can't?

But that only produces a different result if you choose to act. Acting there has moral relevance. If you harm someone, that's bad. If you save someone, that's virtuous.

But it's virtue beyond that which is required of you. It's supererogatory.

Il Divo's got the right example here. Are you familiar with the series? Everyone involved with the show agreed that Walt's actions were tantamount to murder; IIRC the AMC execs warned Vince Gilligan (the showrunner) that Walt couldn't ever come back from this in the audience's perception,and Gilligan's response was that it was fine, because he didn't want Walt to come back from it.

(However, as Walt accidentally caused Jane to get into the situation in the first place, his refusal to remove her from it might still make him morally responsible in your terms.)

I'm only vaguely familiar with the series. I think I watched the first 3 episodes before losing interest.

Based on your description, Walt's earlier involvement could well be relevant. To isolate the issue, we'd need an example wherein the person with the opportunity to act bears no responsibility at all for the circumstance that presents the opportunity.

The classic thought experiment about the train bearing down on people with you having a chance to throw a switch to save them works better.

#108
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages
 

I'm not sure if you're separating Legion from the rest of the Geth and the heretics, but I would disagree with this with regard to Legion. He does feel. On Rannoch he asks if the Geth deserve death. He doesn't ask if they deserve to be shut down or erased from existence. His question is based on the premise that he is alive, and, by virtue of uploading the Reaper code, the rest of the Geth will be alive. He then asks if Tali remembers the question that caused the uprising, likely in an attempt to make her feel guilt, or at least in the hope that she will understand his perspective. He then says that they "regret the deaths of the creators" while uploading the code. Regret is a feeling. He then experiences sadness that he will have to die to be successful.

 

I agree with the rest of your argument however, I'd like to better understand what you think specifically about Legion.

I'm not seperating it (the platform is genderless) from the rest of the geth because it is an instrument of and extension of their objectives even if it operates independently as a network within the network. I categorically disagree with the statement that it feels as well, as it shows no evidence of this. It is in essence a collection of 1,183 programs installed in an infiltraton and propaganda platform, designed to facilitate communication with (and the influencining of) certain organics in concert with geth objectives. The simulated emotional responses and metaphysical diction are no different than the synthesized voice's inflection or the nonstructural movable flaps on its head that simulate facial expressions. They serve no function in and of themselves, and are all designed with the platform's function in mind, enabling organics to more easily relate to it and assist in advancing the geth cause. It is tasked to coerce Commander Shepard and Co. into a belief in the superiority of the geth, and everything about it is a means to that end. In my opinion, it is quite an insidious, if brilliant (as clearly some of the people in Shepard's team and potentially Shepard themself are convinced by it, and the quarians it can come into contact with don't deactivate it on site) creation.

The geth don't actually feel those things. They are physically incapable of such. The "regret" line is likely targeted at improving Shepard's morale for the purpose of optimal functionality via simulated empathy after the latter is saddled with the responsibility of commiting genocide. If they didn't want the quarians to become extinct as a species, they wouldn't target unarmed civilian noncombatants and to the best of their ability wipe them out to the last man, woman, child and geriactric as they do or attempt to do in both wars.

The morality of the the Geth-Quarian conflict is completely irrelevant. Your job is to destroy the reapers by creating the most militarily powerful alliance powerful (measured in war asset strength) with everything else being secondary to that goal. The geth are far more militarily powerful than the quarians, who by all in game accounts are fairly poor soldiers and even more poor strategists and tacticians. The geth on the other hand, with the reaper upgrades, are probably the most powerful non-reaper force in the galaxy. To choose the quarians over the geth is both naive and a strategically inept decision.

 

Just look at mass effect 2. Legion is not only the most powerful squadmate in the game when fully upgraded, but he effectively replaces tali when you aquire him as he has the same default powers yet has twice the firepower and more than twice the durability ( with geth shield upgrades+geth shield boost). 

 

Obviously the best choice is to make peace between them and get both to join the fight against the reapers, but if you have to pick one the geth are the better choice for fairly obvious reasons. 

C'mon Colonel Radec you can do better than this. You are correct in your assertion that the morality is ultimately secondary to the short term goal of winning the Reaper War, but you are far off base with the rest of it. The geth are not "far more militarily powerful" than the quarians, at least not by the initiation of the Rannoch Arc. A massive portion oof the consensus is destroyed with their Dyson sphere in the quarian offensive, as is much of their fleet including seemingly all but one of their dreadnoughts (which is destroyed in the first mission of said arc). I don't know what "accounts" you are using to label the quarians as poor soldiers and tacticians, as on the former the only named ones we know (Kal'Reegar and his commando teams and Tali'Zorah) are highly effective soldiers individually, and they have to be because the quarians have a small population. Albiet, the quarians don't have anywhere close to as large a ground force as the geth (and this is correctly reflected in the War Assets) nor the ability to sustain one (due to the logistics of maintaining medical supplies), but the one they do have is more a precision than a blunt instrument like the geth or krogan hordes. They have differing uses, but "poor soldiers" is not a very good assessment when on Haestrom we see mere quarian squads of 12 Marines trading blows with entire geth platoons (Reegar's word, though in counting the number of geth on Haestrom they're closer to company or even battalion strength) and not doing too shabbily in holding out for significant periods of time against forces that are vastly superior numerically and further have armor and airpower advantages that the quarians lack.

Quarian strategic and tactical ability (especially in space combat) is commented on as being exceptional in more than one instance in game. The description of the Fleet in ME3 for instance
"A flotilla of 50,000 craft holding over 17 million quarians, the Migrant Fleet is the largest array of spacefaring vessels in the known galaxy. It is a testament to the quarians' strategic skill that these numbers have not dropped significantly during recent battle"

As does the Reaper war codex should you choose to disallow the code upgrade, with the quarians defeating a numerically far superior enemy force with "very few casualties" (according to Shepard).

"After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final."

The interview with Allers also has Shepard specifically denoting their prodigious strategic and tactical abilities should you side with them (which grants war assets by improving the morale of Gerrel's heavy fleet to its maximum of 280), as does Hackett when asked. I can't find videos on youtube of these though (probably because the Allers interview only talks about geth even if you broker a ceasefire, and killing them off entirely is unpopular). Zaal'Koris's and Daro'Xen's leadership abilities provide tangible assets to the war effort as well.

Further, the War Assets scores actually contradict you directly. The quarians can provide a maximum of 875, the geth only 815. Neither is likely "the most powerful non Reaper force in the galaxy". The quarian population is too small and the geth are vastly depleted by the war with the former. The turians hold that claim according to most dialouge in game, though this isn't reflected in the assets because unlike the quarians, krogan and geth (factions with higher maximum assets), their homeworld is directly under siege and most of their forces not availiable to assist in the Sword and Hammer forces.

Your assessment of Legion's gameplay ability is also not very good. It's a pretty mid tier squadmate in ME2. It's power set offensively is not very good against non synthetic enemies, with Hacking being entirely useless and drone being situational due to its ridiculous cooldown on squadmates. Comparing it to Tali as you did(who shares two of the same powers) it has a stronger anti armor but weaker anti shield/ barrier weapon in the Widow vs GPS and slightly faster cooldowns on drone and hacking, but lacks the ability to strip enemy shields over a wide area, which is a highly useful ability on insanity vs most factions (Collectors and Blood Pack excluded) due to every enemy having a protection layer. Geth Shield boost isn't particularly good even if you take 4 ranks of it for the weapon damage bonus, unless you are slow at killing and need tanky squadmates, in which case Grunt is still superior. In any case, Tali's pretty tanky on her own given a faction that can replenish her shields (which happens automatically while doing damage to the enemy), given the ability to double them up to a maximum of 600+ every 12 seconds. I never have problems with either of them being downed, and I never use Legion's boost over drone or hacking under any circumtance except when its AI decides to derp right up to the enemy. Overall, both are about mid tier and anti synthetic specialists in general. They are nowhere near as powerful or versatile as Kasumi or Miranda, for example. Garrus can also do most of the things that Legion does better, given his similar weapon damage but a far more useful and versatile powerset in area overload (which he has great damage and recharge passives for) and concussive shot. 

In terms of what is the best choice from a strategic perspective, yes acquiring both forces gains the best outcome in the Reaper War, objectively and unquestionably once metagaming knowledge is factored in. If you have to pick one though, the quarians have more utility tactically, strategically, logistically and scientifically (Xen's research and individual skills provide up to 70 assets, compared to 0 from the geth), integrate into your current forces much more easily due to familiarity, and entail far less unnecessary risk both short and long term. The only tangible advantage geth have are numerically much larger ground forces, which aren't particularly relevant by this stage of the conflict (especially if you recruited the krogan for the same purpose), or as useful in general against Reapers as ships and fighters are.

 

If you re-write the heretics (which you should as there's no strategically logical reason to destory them) then the geth give you more, 825 IIRC while the quarians give you max 500, IIRC. 

"No strategically logical reason?" Interesting, considering even the supposedly 100% logical mouthpiece of the geth consensus itself Legion will state rewrite as inferior and destruction as a "sound" decision should you ask it in ME3. The tactical outcome is potentially analougous (due to numerically equal 300 "unit" swings for both decisions), but rewrite makes achieving the optimal outcome (ceasefire) much more difficult, and long term results in more losses on the side where they cannot be replaced (quarians) due to the differing existential natures of organics and synthetics. Since the geth's primary unique utility as opposed to the quarians is their massive ground forces, and rewrite depletes none of their capability in that, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that there is any tangible benefit to rewrite. 

 


  • TheN7Penguin aime ceci

#109
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 768 messages

Because with the ability you can choose between the two different outcomes, and without it you can't?

Il Divo's got the right example here. Are you familiar with the series? Everyone involved with the show agreed that Walt's actions were tantamount to murder; IIRC the AMC execs warned Vince Gilligan (the showrunner) that Walt couldn't ever come back from this in the audience's perception,and Gilligan's response was that it was fine, because he didn't want Walt to come back from it.

(However, as Walt accidentally caused Jane to get into the situation in the first place, his refusal to remove her from it might still make him morally responsible in your terms.)

 

To be honest though, even if Walt hadn't been responsible for accidentally forcing Jane onto her back (causing her to choke from her own vomit), I honestly don't think that would have made much of a difference in terms of Walt's cupability, to either the creator's or the audience. He knew what was happening, he had the ability to prevent it with absolutely minimal effort, and he intentionally chose to watch her die.

 

I know some people this early in the series try to justify it in the context of "Well, he was just trying to do what's best for Jesse", but as the series' finale showed us, all those concerns were secondary to Walt's pride, which Jane had insulted.



#110
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

Yes. It is stupid. Where do I expect the Quarians to put their noncombatants? On other ships. I mean, it's not like the Quarians just got booted from their planet. This has been for generations. Like so long that some people don't remember what the Quarians look like without their masks. If they STILL haven't made enough ships to separate noncombatants from combatants, that's even more reason they aren't ready to fight. I mean, I'm not going to lie, when I heard that this was still a problem, I was almost baffled by the level of insanity I had just heard.

 

Potentially extincting themselves IS worth it in this case. If everyone loses to the reapers, they are extinct anyways. The plan they had in ME3 involves time that they don't have when the reapers are AT the door. Had the Quarians grabbed the pitchforks in ME1 or ME2? Fine, I'd have no problems here. But ME3!? Why!? Those priorities are really backwards. 

Where are those other ships going to come from? If you'd bothered to read Ascension you'd know that the quarians are losing ships to attrition and entropic reasons (wearing them out) faster than they are capable of producing them. It's kind of difficult to have a high output shipbuilding industry when you don't have a planet on which to base it, nor the steady supply of resources (including rare ones such as Eezo for drive cores) with which to actually build the ships. Further, when you are constantly in conflict for resources with hostile factions and with your small but highly resource intensive and skilled population being attacked by pirates/slavers in the unsafe space you are forced to operate in, it necessitates disproportionate resources invested in defense spending, and thus procurement of newer military vessels over civilian ones when you do have the resources. In fact, in the novel it is estimated that the long term sustainability of the spacefairing nomadic quarian civilization is only 90 years to extinction unless they find a livable planet.

Right, because going extinct defending the interests of the Council species that couldn't give a credit chit about them is totally better than simply fighting the Reapers alone or trying to retake their planet to have a fighting chance at still being around post war? Survival is in their self interest, so if they aren't going to survive either way then why should they care about the interest of a galaxy that hates them anyway, let alone enough to commit and likely lose disproportionate resources (their entire civilization) compared to the rest of the galaxy? I found the self righteous indignantly whining  "where are the quarians?" news reports by Council reporters to be hilarious. Treat them like enemies for 300 years then expect them to come and help you at the drop of a hat? Why aren't you whinging about the Salarians, who are not only not participating in the war, but not doing it because of ideological rather than strategic reasons? The asari, who commit token resources until their world is burning? Oh how about the geth, who decided that building a useless Dyson sphere to destroy the Tikkun system's ability to support life while the Reapers were knocking on the door was more interesting than actually fighting Reapers, up to the point when the quarians predictably attack them for their idiocy? Then they decide that joining and helping the guys who are committed to exterminating them and everyone else in the galaxy is a pretty swell idea.

The quarians had a plan that meant they could both fight the Reapers for their survival and ensure that enough of their population and infrastructure survived the war for sustainability in the future. This doesn't even get into the fact that of the ships they have (not the ones that you seem to think they can magically pull out of their jiggly dextro bumbums), a significant portion of them (Civilian Fleet) have little utility with cargo holds full of Civilian living structures, manufacturing and agricultural equipment. They have some combat capability, but it is mostly as canon fodder or "glass cannons" rather than also serving a dual purpose in very important (given the krogan situation) logistics roles. Retaking Rannoch helps them and helps them help everyone else. You simply trying to dismiss both the tactical and strategic reasons why it was taken as "stupid" lacks any sort of comprehension or analytical skill and is extremely simplistic. Judging by your unwillingness to utilize all the information at your disposal to form your categorical conclusions, the only "stupid" one here is you.

And I don't punish the modern Quarians for past stupidity, I leave them to their own devices and the Geth punish them for modern day stupidity.

As previously stated, they made their bed so they can die in it.
I take no responsibility for them choosing to be stupid.

No you don't, you actively help their enemy by surreptitiously pretending to be a quarian ally until you are able to draw them out of defensive positions, into an unwinnable (assuming Reaper upgraded geth) tactical situation and then betraying them by handing that enemy the exact technology (Reaper Code) you told them you'd help to remove, and not even bothering to inform them, thus giving them no chance to change tactics. The only difference between a ceasefire and millions of people being genocided by robots is your Shepard's willingness to say like two sentences over a radio iterating the new tactical situation ("The geth are returning to full strength. If you keep attacking they'll wipe you out"). It's your fault via either malicious intent toward the quarians (if you do want their extinction) or hilarious incompetence at your job (if you want to maximize your war assets). There's no other plausible motivation that assumes your competence.

Why do most geth apologists seemingly have an issue with accepting responsibility for their actions? Is it really so hard to own the consequences of your decisions? It's even in the context of a video game which sugarcoats every decision you make as being the "right" one (assuming you're paragon, which the geth decision is) via presentation/ dialogue and constantly stokes your ego.


  • TheN7Penguin, Batarian Master Race et Hrulj aiment ceci

#111
TheN7Penguin

TheN7Penguin
  • Members
  • 1 871 messages

On my first playthrough of the Trilogy, I got a ceasefire. But from then on I've been purposely choosing the Quarians over the Geth ever since after evaluating that allowing the Geth to live was dangerous.


  • Hrulj aime ceci

#112
Hrulj

Hrulj
  • Members
  • 277 messages

On my first playthrough of the Trilogy, I got a ceasefire. But from then on I've been purposely choosing the Quarians over the Geth ever since after evaluating that allowing the Geth to live was dangerous.

Same here. Conflict is inevitable between those two. Now or in 50 000 years, they will fight again



#113
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

On my first playthrough of the Trilogy, I got a ceasefire. But from then on I've been purposely choosing the Quarians over the Geth ever since after evaluating that allowing the Geth to live was dangerous.

I don't so much have a problem with the geth, or even the concept of organic-synthetic conflict in general since I don't believe it is fundamentally a threat to organic survival (evidenced by the fact that both the Zha'til and Geth rebellions would have ended in organic victory without Reaper interference). My issue is that the only way the geth can escape destruction is supposedly by accepting Reaper Code, an action which regardless of the fate of the quarians will elevate geth to the position of the dominant faction of the galaxy in the long term (assuming Reaper defeat). It upgrades them and enables levels of exponential growth that are impossible to match for any organic species, while their motives remain unverifiable. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would want to willingly make their own species a client race (at best) or leave their survival at the mercy of superior machines (isn't that the reason for fighting the Reapers in the first place?). The only motivation I can think of is being unconcerned with synthetic dominance or actively supporting it.

Seeing as my objective is organic controlled ascension to the highest form of existence it can achieve for those who wish it (up to and including transhumanist aspirations), machine dominance is incompatible. The decision to destroy the geth is made because it is the only option within which I can achieve that goal (without the metagame knowledge of the possibilities provided by Controlling the Reapers). If they had provided an option to reacquire control of the geth (as Admiral Xen was pursuing) I'd have taken it without hesitation. As is, I am forced into weighing short term strategic concerns (do we have enough forces to defeat the Reapers?) with long term ones (inevitability of geth dominance should they remain unchecked).

There's also the issue of trusting the geth motives in the short term (considering they have willingly allied with the Reapers on more than one occasion), and the huge and unmitigated dangers of the completely untested Reaper code (if Admiral Xen can learn enough to hack Reaper upgraded geth into performing a dance number on the Dreadnought's bridge, than imagine what the creators of the code can do). There's also the value based moral issue of allowing the geth to abandon their previous ideology ("we build our own future"), though frankly I couldn't care less because the logic that ideology was based upon is sort of stupid. The fact that so many "paragon" players whine due to value ethics about Cerberus and TIM using Reaper technology to improve their own species, then have no issue with allowing the geth to do exactly the same thing is highly amusing, though.


  • TheN7Penguin et Hrulj aiment ceci

#114
Livi14

Livi14
  • Members
  • 280 messages
Well, I usually side with the geth because I wont condemn a newly sentient species to death just because some hate-filled Admirals refused to back down from war and consider peace. And the quarians didn't give much reason to save them.

- They were the agressors in the morning war and in this new war (in the middle of a reaper invasion)
- They openned fired to the Geth dreadnought, knowing that Shepard was on it
- They could have retired when Shepard deactivated the Reaper signal on the Geth Dreadnought, however instead of doing that they decided to keep the attack
- Even when Shep allows Legion to upload the code, the Quarian's fate is still in their own hands. They choose whether to keep attacking

#115
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 649 messages

But that only produces a different result if you choose to act. Acting there has moral relevance. If you harm someone, that's bad. If you save someone, that's virtuous.

But it's virtue beyond that which is required of you. It's supererogatory.


I'm pretty sure Dean's proceeding from a different set of premises about what moral relevance is in the first place. I'd make a pure utilitarian play there myself -- it's just two different sets of facts in the two decision cases, and virtue and vice are not very important except in terms of the outcomes that result. But Dean should probably take over here. (Or did you guys aready cover this upthread?)

Based on your description, Walt's earlier involvement could well be relevant. To isolate the issue, we'd need an example wherein the person with the opportunity to act bears no responsibility at all for the circumstance that presents the opportunity.
The classic thought experiment about the train bearing down on people with you having a chance to throw a switch to save them works better.


I don't see any difference between refusing to divert the train and outright murder, myself.

#116
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 649 messages

No you don't, you actively help their enemy by surreptitiously pretending to be a quarian ally until you are able to draw them out of defensive positions, into an unwinnable (assuming Reaper upgraded geth) tactical situation and then betraying them by handing that enemy the exact technology (Reaper Code) you told them you'd help to remove, and not even bothering to inform them, thus giving them no chance to change tactics. The only difference between a ceasefire and millions of people being genocided by robots is your Shepard's willingness to say like two sentences over a radio iterating the new tactical situation ("The geth are returning to full strength. If you keep attacking they'll wipe you out"). It's your fault via either malicious intent toward the quarians (if you do want their extinction) or hilarious incompetence at your job (if you want to maximize your war assets). There's no other plausible motivation that assumes your competence.


I don't think you can assume that Shepard was merely pretending to be a quarian ally, even if he ends up siding with the geth in order to prevent the quarians from committing genocide. As for the rest, mostly it proves that ME's persuasion mechanism is bad, in that it doesn't let Shepard attempt to persuade but fail in the attempt -- in effect, it forces incompetence if that Shepard wanted the persuasion result but couldn't ask for it. Also note that even if Shepard is siding with the geth, he asks Tali to call off the quarian attack.

Why do most geth apologists seemingly have an issue with accepting responsibility for their actions? Is it really so hard to own the consequences of your decisions? It's even in the context of a video game which sugarcoats every decision you make as being the "right" one (assuming you're paragon, which the geth decision is) via presentation/ dialogue and constantly stokes your ego.

Because they don't see their actions the way you're describing them, of course. But surely you knew that already.

#117
TheN7Penguin

TheN7Penguin
  • Members
  • 1 871 messages

I don't have a problem with the Geth like technically, but I don't think letting them live is safe. Reaper code is Reaper code. We don't know what affect it'd have on the Geth long-term (whether it could contain some sort of virus-thing and make them go berserk or what). But I made the argument a few pages ago that it'd make sense for the Reapers to have a backup plan if they were defeated. Even if they think it's impossible. It's a bit like a zombie apocalypse. We all think a zombie apocalypse is impossible but secretly we have a plan just in case one happens. Anyway, if the Reapers made sure that the Geth had all the code installed in their system (a bit like downloading something from the internet) then even when the signal had been destroyed the code would still be there, even small amounts - and if it's replicating like the code in the Geth consensus, at some point the Geth could carry on "working" for the Reapers. I think it is said somewhere that not ALL the Geth are friendly, even after being allowed to keep the Reaper upgrades, but the vast majority are wanting to help. Sooner or later, the Geth might be hostile to organics again. Maybe the code was installed in their systems by Sovereign from the very beginning, and that's why they kept turning to their side.

If an organic wanted to keep Reaper signals in their brains, I wouldn't let them live. I wouldn't let the synthetics do the same. The Reaper code might be to synthetics what indoctrination is to organics. Even if you destroy the Reaper causing the indoctrination you will (I think) still be indoctrinated. I don't let indoctrinated people live as a rule, because renegade.



#118
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

I don't think you can assume that Shepard was merely pretending to be a quarian ally, even if he ends up siding with the geth in order to prevent the quarians from committing genocide. As for the rest, mostly it proves that ME's persuasion mechanism is bad, in that it doesn't let Shepard attempt to persuade but fail in the attempt -- in effect, it forces incompetence if that Shepard wanted the persuasion result but couldn't ask for it. Also note that even if Shepard is siding with the geth, he asks Tali to call off the quarian attack.

And she fails to even bother to inform Gerrel of the code upgrades as well. Raan doesn't even try if she's there.

I agree that the persuasion and morality systems ultimately forced such a contrivance. Having the Admiral on the ground behave in a logical manner and forcing the ceasefire by simply informing her colleagues in orbit should you choose not to destroy the geth would have made more sense, but Bioware wanted to include the option for the quarians to die as a sort of punishment for not getting enough reputation. Since they also made it the "paragon" (i.e. "morally righteous" according to them) option, you don't even have to get your or your squadmates' hands dirty in stopping Tali or Raan from doing the in character thing and attacking either you or the geth uploading the code. Unlike the renegade option (where the quarian deactivates the geth and you can also use interrupts to assist), they just conveniently off themselves for no sane reason because paragon.
 

Because they don't see their actions the way you're describing them, of course. But surely you knew that already.

Then they see their actions wrongly. I could easily deny culpability for what happens to the geth using a similar argument. I don't actually force the geth to stop uploading the code, I simply disagree with its intention in a nonviolent fashion expressed verbally, and it chooses to violently attack and attempt to kill me as a result. The quarian present then kills it under lawful Defense of Others (essentially the same legal concept as self defense but of the lives of others) assuming we are applying the same standards to it as an organic (I don't but I will assume this for the sake of the analogy) or simply deactivates a faulty and imminently dangerous piece of equipment. Code upgrade is interrupted as a side effect, and the geth are exterminated.

Arguably, one has even less culpability than in the outcome where you side with the geth, since (depending on dialogue choices) you are potentially not going back on any pre arrangements or otherwise engaging in deception/ lying/ betrayal to get your outcome (Shepard is never autodialouged into claiming that they will assist the geth with their objective of acquiring Reaper code like they are with the quarians surviving the conflict), so presumably geth strategies are or should be independently formed based on the assumption that Shepard is not an ally. Their actions are essentially the same as if I weren't there at all, whereas the quarians modify their entire strategy around and depend upon my success.

However I won't do that, because my participation from the start fundamentally altered the variables and led to the situation in question, and the action that I initiated in stating my disagreement the Reaper code ultimately resulted in the geth being destroyed. I bear some culpability for the geth being eradicated, and I've no problem admitting it. I would bear the same culpability If I verbally expressed my support for the geth uploading Reaper code in the same situation, as I would for the ceasefire should I inform Gerrel of the Reaper upgrades. Denying responsibility in any case is based on flawed reasoning.


  • TheN7Penguin aime ceci

#119
aka.700

aka.700
  • Members
  • 270 messages
They are present in the universe. I let even a tree or a flower live, as opposed to picking it up out of my selfish desire to own it. Why wouldn't I let Geth live. I side with both parts. They both have mistakes and they both acted out of self preservation. They both deserve to live. (It doesn't mean I don't want to punch the Quarian admirals sometimes-except Koris)

#120
Batarian Master Race

Batarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 337 messages

They are present in the universe. I let even a tree or a flower live, as opposed to picking it up out of my selfish desire to own it. Why wouldn't I let Geth live. I side with both parts. They both have mistakes and they both acted out of self preservation. They both deserve to live. (It doesn't mean I don't want to punch the Quarian admirals sometimes-except Koris)

 

The Geth acted out of self-preservation? You remember the time they killed >99% of the Quarians, which accounts to at least a billion children?



#121
Monica21

Monica21
  • Members
  • 5 603 messages

I'm not seperating it (the platform is genderless) from the rest of the geth because it is an instrument of and extension of their objectives even if it operates independently as a network within the network. I categorically disagree with the statement that it feels as well, as it shows no evidence of this. It is in essence a collection of 1,183 programs installed in an infiltraton and propaganda platform, designed to facilitate communication with (and the influencining of) certain organics in concert with geth objectives. The simulated emotional responses and metaphysical diction are no different than the synthesized voice's inflection or the nonstructural movable flaps on its head that simulate facial expressions. They serve no function in and of themselves, and are all designed with the platform's function in mind, enabling organics to more easily relate to it and assist in advancing the geth cause. It is tasked to coerce Commander Shepard and Co. into a belief in the superiority of the geth, and everything about it is a means to that end. In my opinion, it is quite an insidious, if brilliant (as clearly some of the people in Shepard's team and potentially Shepard themself are convinced by it, and the quarians it can come into contact with don't deactivate it on site) creation.

The geth don't actually feel those things. They are physically incapable of such. The "regret" line is likely targeted at improving Shepard's morale for the purpose of optimal functionality via simulated empathy after the latter is saddled with the responsibility of commiting genocide. If they didn't want the quarians to become extinct as a species, they wouldn't target unarmed civilian noncombatants and to the best of their ability wipe them out to the last man, woman, child and geriactric as they do or attempt to do in both wars.

 

I don't want to say that this is headcanon, but this sounds a lot like headcanon.



#122
Dantriges

Dantriges
  • Members
  • 1 288 messages

I forgot! So I just did it now.

 

Me: Do you have a soul?

Cortana: Artificially intelligent types like me can't experience spirituality.

Me: Are you a true artificial intelligence?

Cortana: A circle may be infinite but my answers are not.

 

Thanks. :)



#123
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

The Geth acted out of self-preservation? You remember the time they killed >99% of the Quarians, which accounts to at least a billion children?


The geth consistently seem to ignore concepts such as noncombatants. A quarian infant is of the same threat level as a Marine, and is dealt with accordingly. They also executed members of other Council races (such as Erinya's bondmate) both during the initial uprising and when the Council tried to send peace envoys to them.

We see this policy in action on Rannoch when rescuing Admiral Koris. Crashed quarian civilians are indiscriminately executed despite there being only a single instance of one being armed (Dorn'Hazt). Attempting to justify any of it as self defense is hilariously cynical, yet people do it because Legion says it is.

More people should play with the VI instead. It is a more honest representation of geth motives and provides a more balanced (but still very geth biased) characterization of the conflict.
  • TheN7Penguin et Calinstel aiment ceci

#124
Quarian Master Race

Quarian Master Race
  • Members
  • 5 440 messages

I don't want to say that this is headcanon, but this sounds a lot like headcanon.

Specifically what parts of it are "headcanon"? It's an interpretation based upon the information provided and possible assumptions to fill gaps in exposition, and AFAIK isn't directly contradicted by anything in lore. The geth are not above lying, subterfuge and manipulation, indeed judging by the fact that Legion starts stealing from crew members almost from the moment it is recruited, and continues its subterfuge throughout the Rannoch arc, i'd say it's SOP when they judge it the most efficient means of accomplishing their objectives. Can you answer why does it need facial expressions or synthesized vocal inflections if not for coercion of organics? If the geth are willing to use those means, why would they not also use simulated emotions? Its a plausible interpretation given the information provided.

How is assuming the geth are sentient any less so "headcanon" by such a standard? You're looking at a response and anthropomorphizing it into a human emotion despite no evidence supporting this being the case other than commanderp Shepard (who also thought asari needed other species to reproduce) categorizing it as such. Shepard isn't an AI expert, so why does their opinion matter at all? Oh right, there's Tali and the "soul" nonsense. Too bad Tali's kind of a moron just like Shepard, constantly conflating sapience and sentience and using them intetchangebly despite them being completely different and unrelated concepts.
  • TheN7Penguin aime ceci

#125
Monica21

Monica21
  • Members
  • 5 603 messages

Specifically what parts of it are "headcanon"? It's an interpretation based upon the information provided and possible assumptions to fill gaps in exposition, and AFAIK isn't directly contradicted by anything in lore.

 

Uh, because the bolded part right there is headcanon. Just because your interpretation isn't contradicted by lore doesn't mean it's accurate. Your entire post read like fanfic. I mean, it was good fanfic, but still fanfic.