233 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrulj]

The Quarians started a war in the middle of a reaper invasion only because they thought they can win it. They wanted this. The Geth didn't. For me the Quarians are the aggressors. And then they doomed themselves in the events in question...it was their own stupid fault. The Geth did try to escape, but Gerrel wasn't about to let that happen. I addition, I simply get more utility from the Geth. They provide one of the most advanced fleets aswell as infantry. And they cannot be hacked while organics can be indoctrinated. So the Geth it is.

Admiral Xen, if Tali is dead, hacks Reaper upgraded Geth and makes them dance on the Dreadnought

[Monica21]

Can you make an argument for geth sentience that isn't based upon "an interpretation that has little to no support in game"?

 

Hmm... I'd have to care enough to do that, and I don't.

[GreyLycanTrope]

The Geth are responsible for their own actions. They CHOSE to ally with the Reapers; the Quarians didn't force them to do anything. The Quarians were having difficulty killing Reaper-enhanced enemies, same as every other race in the galaxy.

 

And, y'know, maybe the Geth weren't interested in attacking the Quarians because the Geth had everything they needed and more. The Geth don't NEED Rannoch; they could survive on any other planet, even ones that couldn't support organic life. Keeping Rannoch to themselves is selfish and stupid, especially if the Geth are so willing to work with the Quarians.

They actually did, the Quarians attacked on their own accord and by your own admission knocked the morality out of the Geth. It's pretty safe to assume the Reapers would get involved in some shape or fashion as they previously already had, that the quarians didn't see it coming is baffling.

 

They weren't really planning on keeping Rannoch, Legion tells you back in ME2 that they figured their creators would return to it eventually. No one actually asked them if they would hand it over though.

[Quarian Master Race]

The Quarians started a war in the middle of a reaper invasion only because they thought they can win it. 

False. It was either before or hours after the beginning of said invasion, not "in the middle of". The second half of the statement says nothing and makes no sense. Who in their right mind starts a war that they think they will lose?

 

They wanted this. The Geth didn't. For me the Quarians are the aggressors. 

Yeah, they did, unquestionably. As for the geth, I'm sure they didn't want to be punished for occupying and squatting one someone's planet, then trying to make it unlivable by surrounding its star with a Dyson Sphere, but it's a pretty easily foreseeable consequence of said action that you will be attacked by said people for doing so. That's like saying that the people prosecuted at Nuremburg didn't really want war, they simply wanted non Aryans to lie down and die in their camps as their lands were used by the Ubermensch. No one wants war if their objectives can be acquired by less destructive means, the geth simply thought they could hold their ill gotten territory without one and use it how they saw fit until the end of time.

Whats your alternative for the quarians? Diplomacy? Peace envoys? The Council already tried that one. The only "peace" acquired was the pieces of said envoys they got back in return.
 

And then they doomed themselves in the events in question...it was their own stupid fault. The Geth did try to escape, but Gerrel wasn't about to let that happen. 

No, it's your fault for handing the geth their Reaper code and then intentionally withholding information from your quarian allies about their newfound vulnerability out of spite or incompetence. Of course Gerrel wasn't going to let the enemy retreat and continue future resistance if he could prevent it. He's a competent commander, and that is tactically unwise.

It's also yet another example of the flawed "it's not my fault" argument that litters this thread. Why is it so hard for you to own your decision in a video game?

 

I addition, I simply get more utility from the Geth. They provide one of the most advanced fleets aswell as infantry. And they cannot be hacked while organics can be indoctrinated. So the Geth it is.

No you don't. Utility is measured mathematically in war assets, and the quarians provide 875 to the geth's 815 in ideal circumstances. They can totally be hacked. Admiral Xen makes them perform a bloody dance number, and any character with Sabotage such as Engineer/Inflitrator Shepard, Tali and the characters within the canon multiplayer can hack Reaper upgraded geth all the time.

[Vilio1]

Because the entire quarian-geth conflict was completely the fault of none other than the quarians and my Shepard was not willing to stand by and let the geth be destroyed for defending themselves from attack. You reap what you sow.

[Batarian Master Race]

They actually did, the Quarians attacked on their own accord and by your own admission knocked the morality out of the Geth. It's pretty safe to assume the Reapers would get involved in some shape or fashion as they previously already had, that the quarians didn't see it coming is baffling.

 

They weren't really planning on keeping Rannoch, Legion tells you back in ME2 that they figured their creators would return to it eventually. No one actually asked them if they would hand it over though.

 

The statement "knocked the morality out of the geth" was figurative language. The Quarians may have had superior force, but the Geth had a moral obligation not to join the Reapers. Legion stated as much. But, of course, the instant that Geth power was threatened, the Geth decided to throw their morality out the window and join the Reapers.

 

Like... seriously? You want the race of tin-can turncoats on your side? 

 

If they weren't planning on keeping Rannoch, maybe they shouldn't have been building that Dyson Sphere around the sun. That might have a detrimental effect on anyone trying to live on the planet.

[Hrulj]

The statement "knocked the morality out of the geth" was figurative language. The Quarians may have had superior force, but the Geth had a moral obligation not to join the Reapers. Legion stated as much. But, of course, the instant that Geth power was threatened, the Geth decided to throw their morality out the window and join the Reapers.

 

Like... seriously? You want the race of tin-can turncoats on your side? 

 

If they weren't planning on keeping Rannoch, maybe they shouldn't have been building that Dyson Sphere around the sun. That might have a detrimental effect on anyone trying to live on the planet.

I love how people ignore the fact that Dyson sphere would kill ALL organic life in the entire system, and make it unlivable for organics since plants would die and all ecosystems would colapse, yet make it out as if Quarians had time to chose when to act to save their home star system from doom

[Barquiel]

Admiral Xen, if Tali is dead, hacks Reaper upgraded Geth and makes them dance on the Dreadnought

I guess that means Xen is smarter than the reapers

But the game makes it absolutely clear that the upgraded Geth cannot be hacked by the reapers. Both Legion and Shepard mention it. And the Geth Prime on Earth confirms that the reapers tried, and that they failed.

[Hrulj]

I guess that means Xen is smarter than the reapers

But the game makes it absolutely clear that the upgraded Geth cannot be hacked by the reapers. Both Legion and Shepard mention it. And the Geth Prime on Earth confirms that the reapers tried, and that they failed.

I am not saying I dont believe you, but where/when does that happen/is said? I dont remember hearing it ever. If Xen can hack an upgraded Geth attacking her, then what can reaper do to them using his code? Not to mention thinking what long term effects the code will have. 

[Barquiel]

The geth prime? It replaces Tali or Raan during the goodbye scenes on Earth if you sided with the geth.

[Hrulj]

The geth prime? It replaces Tali or Raan during the goodbye scenes on Earth if you sided with the geth.

It only says they are ready to assist, not that its impossible to hack them 

[GreyLycanTrope]

The statement "knocked the morality out of the geth" was figurative language. The Quarians may have had superior force, but the Geth had a moral obligation not to join the Reapers. Legion stated as much. But, of course, the instant that Geth power was threatened, the Geth decided to throw their morality out the window and join the Reapers.

Like... seriously? You want the race of tin-can turncoats on your side?

If they weren't planning on keeping Rannoch, maybe they shouldn't have been building that Dyson Sphere around the sun. That might have a detrimental effect on anyone trying to live on the planet.

Except in their case it's a literal event and self preservation ends up trumping any higher thought processes when their intelligence starts dimming due to their battlefield losses.

Yup, they're not that hard to figure out, just don't threaten their existance and aelf deteranism and they'll have no reason to stab you in the back.

Rannoch was the most logical choice for the structure as it was the safest place for them to build it at that point in time. They probably wouldn't be oppossed to building it elsewhere if a viable alternative was presented.

[Barquiel]

It only says they are ready to assist, not that its impossible to hack them 

Ok, I just watched the scene again and it didn't say anything about hacking. But it said that the reapers made an attempt to contact them, and that the geth rejected it.

[Batarian Master Race]

Except in their case it's a literal event and self preservation ends up trumping any higher thought processes when their intelligence starts dimming due to their battlefield losses.

Yup, they're not that hard to figure out, just don't threaten their existance and aelf deteranism and they'll have no reason to stab you in the back.

Rannoch was the most logical choice for the structure as it was the safest place for them to build it at that point in time. They probably wouldn't be oppossed to building it elsewhere if a viable alternative was presented.

 

An ally that switches sides when their numbers get too low is not an ally one wants to have. See: Italy during WW2.

 

And Rannoch may have been the most logical, but that doesn't change that it'd doom Rannoch's ecosystem, meaning that the Geth would have permanently destroyed the one planet the Quarians could live on. Which means that no, the Geth were not planning to give Rannoch back in any useable state. Which means Legion is twisting the truth.

[GreyLycanTrope]

An ally that switches sides when their numbers get too low is not an ally one wants to have. See: Italy during WW2.

And Rannoch may have been the most logical, but that doesn't change that it'd doom Rannoch's ecosystem, meaning that the Geth would have permanently destroyed the one planet the Quarians could live on. Which means that no, the Geth were not planning to give Rannoch back in any useable state. Which means Legion is twisting the truth.

I'm of a different opinion. Numbers aren't the sole factor of what makes a worthehile ally.

Admittedly it wasn't their highest priority given the two sides were at war but they weren't against the idea. And no the Quarians could survive on other planets, it would just take a lot longer for them to acclimate to a different planet than it would to their own. Though with the geth being able to plug into their suits to jump start their immune system it's probably still a viable option.

[Quarian Master Race]

I guess that means Xen is smarter than the reapers

But the game makes it absolutely clear that the upgraded Geth cannot be hacked by the reapers. Both Legion and Shepard mention it. And the Geth Prime on Earth confirms that the reapers tried, and that they failed.

Legion says no such thing. Shepard (who again has little to no AI credentials at all) makes a claim in the Allers interview based on personal feelings that is demonstratably false both in gameplay (Sabotage) and narrative (Admiral Xen). The prime also says nothing about hacking, merely that the Reapers extended an offer to renew their alliance, which the geth rejected.

Are you going to continue posting factually incorrect information in the hope that Burke's Law will begin to apply? You can lie to yourself all you want to validate your faulty conclusions, but some of us actually have reading comprehension and analytical skills.

[Batarian Master Race]

I'm of a different opinion. Numbers aren't the sole factor of what makes a worthehile ally.

Admittedly it wasn't their highest priority given the two sides were at war but they weren't against the idea. And no the Quarians could survive on other planets, it would just take a lot longer for them to acclimate to a different planet than it would to their own. Though with the geth being able to plug into their suits to jump start their immune system it's probably still a viable option.

 

Which is another point in the Quarian's favor, seeing as the Quarian can act as transports for the Krogan (who desperately need them). The Geth cannot. 

 

The Geth began building the Dyson sphere before the Quarians declared war, which means that Rannoch would still be rendered unfit for life.

 

It WOULD take a lot longer, which is why it wouldn't work. The Quarians needed a safe haven for their people almost instantly, and Rannoch was the only planet that could fit those needs.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Which is another point in the Quarian's favor, seeing as the Quarian can act as transports for the Krogan (who desperately need them). The Geth cannot.

The Geth began building the Dyson sphere before the Quarians declared war, which means that Rannoch would still be rendered unfit for life.

It WOULD take a lot longer, which is why it wouldn't work. The Quarians needed a safe haven for their people almost instantly, and Rannoch was the only planet that could fit those needs.

The geth can accomidate the krogan just as well. I don't recall them having a significant problem doing so.

Actually the Quarians never stopped hostlities. While large scale operations haven't happened in years the two sides still weren't on peaceful terms and the quarians did occasionally attack geth positions. Remember how Tali's dad was gathering parts for his exoeriments? Honestly would you be too preoccuppied trying to accomidate a group that has yet to show any good will towards you?

Even Rannoch woud still take time, they wouldn't have acclimated their immune systems before entering a war. The difference between Rannoch and another suitable world is 40 vs 400 years. So either way we're still talking decades at least, hence for the purposes of the reaper war it literally makes no difference where they parked their non combatants.

[Il Divo]

But that's not the outcome. No lives are saved by the inaction.

I have two issues here. First, the idea that I could be somehow culpable for something I didn't do.

Second, the idea that every decision is a moral one, which, if we're factoring in opportunity costs, every decision is.

 

But see this is why you keep repeating the mistake. Utilitarianism is a cost/benefit analysis of all the different possible outcomes. You're focusing on the "no saved lives" consequence and ignoring the optimal outcome: a life is saved, which is the benefit. The minimal effort involved represents the cost. A utilitarian would ask 3 questions:

 

1. What are the costs?

2. What are the benefits?

3. Which combination of actions leads to the most benefits, with the least cost?

 

You can't ignore the costs or the benefits in that analysis.

 

The idea that you oppose utilitarianism is a separate argument. But that doesn't change that you're fundamentally misrepresenting how a utilitarian approach would calculate the scenario.  
 

[Hrulj]

The geth can accomidate the krogan just as well. I don't recall them having a significant problem doing so.

Actually the Quarians never stopped hostlities. While large scale operations haven't happened in years the two sides still weren't on peaceful terms and the quarians did occasionally attack geth positions. Remember how Tali's dad was gathering parts for his exoeriments? Honestly would you be too preoccuppied trying to accomidate a group that has yet to show any good will towards you?

Even Rannoch woud still take time, they wouldn't have acclimated their immune systems before entering a war. The difference between Rannoch and another suitable world is 40 vs 400 years. So either way we're still talking decades at least, hence for the purposes of the reaper war it literally makes no difference where they parked their non combatants.

No they cant, since there is no air in Geth ships. 

 

Council sent envoys to the Geth after morning war. Geth killed them/destroyed them. That was before heretics existed. Geth attacked anyone entering their systems

 

The difference is if a suit raptures on Rannoch the person will be down with mild infection. If a suit raptures on some other planet death is highly probable.

Also, Rannoch was about to be destroyed by the Geth, due to the dyson sphere and made uninhabitable for organic life

[Barquiel]

Legion says no such thing. Shepard (who again has little to no AI credentials at all) makes a claim in the Allers interview based on personal feelings that is demonstratably false both in gameplay (Sabotage) and narrative (Admiral Xen). The prime also says nothing about hacking, merely that the Reapers extended an offer to renew their alliance, which the geth rejected.

Are you going to continue posting factually incorrect information in the hope that Burke's Law will begin to apply? You can lie to yourself all you want to validate your faulty conclusions, but some of us actually have reading comprehension and analytical skills.

Legion said the geth can't be permanently hacked, they auto-correct after a bit. Instead, the geth are reasoned with. Allers explicitly asks if the upgraded geth can be hacked by the reapers and Shepard says "no", they are not going to turn again...and you know what? Shepard is right. After the upgrade and the geth gained individuality we never once hear any reports that the reapers hacked a geth. Not once. There is no evidence they can do so. And that's all the information we've on this subject.

Nice, resorting to petty insults now? The OP wanted to hear reasons why people side with the geth and I posted my reasons. And I'm certainly not going to try to convince people to side with the geth...3 years after the game came out. Anyways, welcome to my block list...

[Sylvius the Mad]

But see this is why you keep repeating the mistake. Utilitarianism is a cost/benefit analysis of all the different possible outcomes. You're focusing on the "no saved lives" consequence and ignoring the optimal outcome: a life is saved, which is the benefit. The minimal effort involved represents the cost. A utilitarian would ask 3 questions:

1. What are the costs?
2. What are the benefits?
3. Which combination of actions leads to the most benefits, with the least cost?

You can't ignore the costs or the benefits in that analysis.

The idea that you oppose utilitarianism is a separate argument. But that doesn't change that you're fundamentally misrepresenting how a utilitarian approach would calculate the scenario.

I'm only comparing the two scenarios in which no lives were saved.

In one, you had the opportunity to act, but chose not to.

In the other, you didn't have the opportunity to act, and thus made no choice.

If there is a difference between those two events, I want to understand why.

I'll add a third scenario: You were present and physically capable of acting, but didn't work out the moral problem fast enough and lost your opportunity before getting to the decision-making phase.

That one certainly looks identical to the not present scenario, as no choice was made.

[Batarian Master Race]

Legion said the geth can't be permanently hacked, they auto-correct after a bit. Instead, the geth are reasoned with. Shepard says in the interview that the geth are not going to turn again, and you know what? She's right. After the upgrade and the geth gained individuality we never once hear any reports that the reapers hacked a geth. Not once. There is no evidence they can do so.

Nice, resorting to petty insults now? Welcome to my block list...

Admiral Xen pretty permanently hacks the Geth. Tea parties and dance shows, remember.

[Barquiel]

Admiral Xen pretty permanently hacks the Geth. Tea parties and dance shows, remember.

I don't think it's permanent. As I have said, according to Legion the geth should autocorrect some time after being hacked.

[themikefest]

I am not saying I dont believe you, but where/when does that happen/is said? I dont remember hearing it ever. If Xen can hack an upgraded Geth attacking her, then what can reaper do to them using his code? Not to mention thinking what long term effects the code will have. 

It happens on the dreadnought

https://youtu.be/Vrh_Axpg9Ns?t=6m50s