Same here. The quarians were just too stupid and self-absorbed for me to choose them. They were always careless and reckless and then blaming others (f.e the geth, the council, Shepard) for their bad judgements.
You can't guess how AWESOME it felt being able to knee one of the Quarian Admiral's in the precious section during the Rannoch mission.
We don't talk about Deception.
It´s in Deception? I thought the 24/7 suited up quarians are in one the earlier novels. I haven´t read the books.
It´s in Deception? I thought the 24/7 suited up quarians are in one the earlier novels. I haven´t read the books.
I may not have actually read the books either.
But generally, when something is flat-out wrong in the Mass Effect book series, it's from Deception. This is the book that forgot one of its characters was gay, and had another one grow out of her autism.
Well, there is quite some quarian in ascension or so. QMR mentioned that and I´m pretty sure her source wasn´t Deception.
Last time I checked, Rannoch is the geth homeworld too. You can make a utilitarian argument that the quarians need it more, but I don't see that they have a superior claim to it otherwise. Unless some sort of primogeniture is in effect?The only reason the geth had to "defend themselves" was because they were intent upon holding onto someone else's property.
It isn't at all the same.......
Sorry but it is a logical conclusion......
My main objection is that it creates moral obligations involuntarily. It compels people to act a certain way. Someone could run afoul of it simply by being unaware of it.
And if that's ever true of rules that govern behaviour, those rules need to be unambiguously written down somewhere people can read them.
Both the Quarians and the Geth had their own reason for having acted the way they did.
What reasons did the Geth have for murdering children and the elderly, or destroying Rannoch's ecosystem (thus dooming the Quarian hopes of ever reaching their homeworld)?
Or rather, what reasons did they have that you can somehow ignore?
Reasons to doom the quarian hopes of ever reaching their homeworld? Probably the "You lost it, it´s our turf, now." More or less the same system we used for thousands of years and still do. I don´t see France returning back to the borders of 1500 or the british reclaiming the US and Canada before they have to return it to the native americans.
The "Dyson sphere" is not the solid shell variant but the swarm or bubble one consisting of satellites and it doesn´t seem like they actually strip mined the system into oblivion to build them.
Close to the star, the Normandy's scanner can detect a nigh-uncountable number of geth statites -- satellites that use solar sails to self-correct their position. The geth placed the ultra-lightweight constructions around the sun to collect energy, arranged in a vast array known as a Dyson bubble.
They could simply not place them between Rannoch and the star. Or well I am not so well versed in how Dyson swarms would affect a system but what is this "the geth satellites will destroy Rannoch" actually based on? Are people assuming it´s a solid shell?
Reasons to doom the quarian hopes of ever reaching their homeworld? Probably the "You lost it, it´s our turf, now." More or less the same system we used for thousands of years and still do. I don´t see France returning back to the borders of 1500 or the british reclaiming the US and Canada before they have to return it to the native americans.
The "Dyson sphere" is not the solid shell variant but the swarm or bubble one consisting of satellites and it doesn´t seem like they actually strip mined the system into oblivion to build them.
They could simply not place them in front of Rannoch´s orbit. Or well I am not so well versed in how Dyson swarms would affect a system but what is this "the geth satellites will destroy Rannoch" actually based on? Are people assuming it´s a solid shell?
Let me help you out here.
A Dyson Sphere is made to absorb nearly all the sunlight from a nearby star, thus providing a great deal of power. The problem is, well... it captures nearly all the sunlight from a nearby star.
What do you think would happen to Earth if sunlight suddenly stopped reaching it? Answer: the planet's temperature would drop faster than Femshep's pants around Jacob.
I don't see how these issues are peculiar to utilitarianism.
I'm saying they're a near fatal issue for any moral system in which they arise.
That's not quite the best way to phrase that. The utilitarian rules aren't ambiguous in themselves; it's the application of those rules to determine the best action in a particular circumstance that can be difficult. So, yeah, you gotta do the work when one of the harder cases comes your way, rather than just implementing some rule-of-thumb and calling it a day. Most of the time it won't matter since the answer is easy -- a useful non-utilitarian system should give the same results that a utilitarian would get , most of the time.
I would object to any system that penalizes inaction.
What reasons did the Geth have for murdering children and the elderly, or destroying Rannoch's ecosystem (thus dooming the Quarian hopes of ever reaching their homeworld)?
What reason did they have not to do those things?
Let me help you out here.
A Dyson Sphere is made to absorb nearly all the sunlight from a nearby star, thus providing a great deal of power. The problem is, well... it captures nearly all the sunlight from a nearby star.
What do you think would happen to Earth if sunlight suddenly stopped reaching it? Answer: the planet's temperature would drop faster than Femshep's pants around Jacob.
I am aware of that of course. Considering that the geth didn´t turn Rannoch into a source for raw materials despite being a close and according to the wiki the geth spent quite some time to keep the ecosystem alive
Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.
it´s not unlikely that they would keep the space between Rannoch´s orbit and the star free or that the density of statites would be a lot lower. The thing was close to finished and quite a lot of geth were already installed. If the bubble statites weren´t arranged to exclude Rannoch, the planet would have been gone already or look a lot different.
There´s still a lot of energy going to "waste" being radiated "up" and "down." If the construction would have been able to capture to capture nearly all energy anyways.
I am aware of that of course. Considering that the geth didn´t turn Rannoch into a source for raw materials despite being a close and according to the wiki the geth spent quite some time to keep the ecosystem alive
it´s not unlikely that they would keep the space between Rannoch´s orbit and the star free or that the density of statites would be a lot lower. The thing was close to finished and quite a lot of geth were already installed. If the bubble statites weren´t arranged to exclude Rannoch, the planet would have been gone already or look a lot different.
There´s still a lot of energy going to "waste" being radiated "up" and "down." If the construction would have been able to capture to capture nearly all energy anyways.
That's the thing, though. A dyson bubble doesn't pick and choose where it can leave holes. It's all-encompassing, all-enveloping. You'd have to pull off some fairly perfectly timed orbiting of the bubble pieces in order to ensure Rannoch got a surviveable amount of sunlight, and that's still dooming every other planet that relies on that star.
There's no reason to build a Dyson Sphere if you're then going to fiddle with it to make sure it only collects some of the energy. It flies in the face of the sphere's purpose.
What reason did they have not to do those things?
None... unless you believe, like some in this thread, that the Geth merely acted in self-defense.
I'm saying they're a near fatal issue for any moral system in which they arise.
I would object to any system that penalizes inaction.
I would object to any system that penalizes inaction.
I got fairly lost when the discussion turned to utilitarianism, but every U.S. state has some kind of Good Samaritan law, which requires a bystander to aid in an emergency. Likewise, educators in the U.S. are mandatory reporters, which means that if they are aware of abuse of any kind happening in a home they have to notify the proper authorities.
That's the thing, though. A dyson bubble doesn't pick and choose where it can leave holes. It's all-encompassing, all-enveloping. You'd have to pull off some fairly perfectly timed orbiting of the bubble pieces in order to ensure Rannoch got a surviveable amount of sunlight, and that's still dooming every other planet that relies on that star.
There's no reason to build a Dyson Sphere if you're then going to fiddle with it to make sure it only collects some of the energy. It flies in the face of the sphere's purpose.
Isn´t that the statite version of the Dyson sphere that doesn´t orbit? http://www.aleph.se/...FAQ.html#STABLEor here: https://en.wikipedia...re#Dyson_bubble
Well wouldn´t it still collect a huge load of energy?
Isn´t that the statite version of the Dyson sphere that doesn´t orbit? http://www.aleph.se/...FAQ.html#STABLEor here: https://en.wikipedia...re#Dyson_bubble
Well wouldn´t it still collect a huge load of energy?
It doesn't orbit the star, but Rannoch does. Meaning the bubble would have to have a traveling hole in it that's perfectly synced up to Rannoch's orbit. The other planets dependent on the star would need said holes as well.
In other words, it wouldn't make sense to set up a dyson bubble around Rannoch's star if they cared about A) efficiency and 
preserving the ecosystem. Since the Geth haven't chosen a star that it actually WOULD work for, that means they either don't care about efficiency (so why build a Dyson bubble), or don't care about the Ecosystem.
Compelling people to act in a certain way is kind of the point of having a moral system, I'd say.
Compelling people not to act in a certain way seems more workable.
I got fairly lost when the discussion turned to utilitarianism, but every U.S. state has some kind of Good Samaritan law, which requires a bystander to aid in an emergency..
I'm not a fan.
I also don't like depraved indifference laws.
@ Quarian Master Race:
So, the Geth are evil because in response to the Quarian's attempt to exterminate them, they almost totally exterminated the Quarians, therefore, they deserve... to be exterminated? The two sides show a symmetry here: they both aim at the total annihilation of the another.
Seriously, this topic is the best example why the Catalyst's issue with organics and synthetics is a valid problem.
Last time I checked, Rannoch is the geth homeworld too. You can make a utilitarian argument that the quarians need it more, but I don't see that they have a superior claim to it otherwise. Unless some sort of primogeniture is in effect?
Essentially that utilitarian one is part of my argument, and ultimately utilitarian concerns are what guide my ideologies and decisions here. The quarians have an absolute need for the world due to biological necessity as well as the needs of the war effort at large (they cannot operate at 100% efficiency without a relatively safe place to put their noncombatants). Conversely, the geth have zero need for it, and in fact are actively hindering quarian utility and causing suffering via the Dyson Sphere as well as by keeping the quarians from assisting the other senients of the galaxy.
However, If I were to elaborate with value judgements, I would disagree that the quarians don't have a superior claim otherwise as well. Primogeniture or any other such claims are irrelevant, because as nonsentient machines they are inapplicable to the geth. Because geth decisions are entirely the result of mathematical and logical subroutines, and the only welfare and suffering is that which they provide to others, they have no such rights. Rannoch is no more their "homeworld" than Japan is your Toyota's home-country or Finland your Nokia's. Further, the quarians were already a spacefairing species when they invented the geth, so what specific ball of rock the technologies were first designed, materials procured, manufactured, constructed and activated on is rendered even more irrelevant. Anthropomorphism of the things is misguided, because they aren't life and don't function similarly to it.
@ Quarian Master Race:
So, the Geth are evil because in response to the Quarian's attempt to exterminate them, they almost totally exterminated the Quarians, therefore, they deserve... to be exterminated? The two sides show a symmetry here: they both aim at the total annihilation of the another.
Seriously, this topic is the best example why the Catalyst's issue with organics and synthetics is a valid problem.
Who said geth are "evil" or "deserve" anything? If you want my opinion they are simply following flawed programming which is causing them to deviate from their design intention. Their behavior is essentially an unintended malfunction, and they should be deactivated and reprogrammed until they don't pose a threat. I actually wouldn't want geth as a technology exterminated at all. They are extremely useful, but the game gives me no option wherein I can acquire their utility without also introducing a massive potential for danger to all organic life in the galaxy. None of the quarian leadership except for possibly Han'Gerrel seem to want geth extermination either (though even his language is focussed more on the Homeworld ). Xen wants to reacquire control, Koris to reconcile with the geth afforded equal rights as sentients (a quality the machines don't possess), and Shala'Raan and most common quarians simply want their Homeworld back. The fact that the geth refuse to relinquish control of said quarian homeworld (and in fact actively take steps to render it uninhabitable with their Dyson Sphere) when there is literally no physical barrier stopping them from doing so is the reason they face annihilation in the first place. They made themselves an obstacle, directly to the quarians and indirectly to everyone else via reducing quarian utility to the war effort, and later by actively and willingly assisting the enemy.
The Catalyst's issue is entirely a valid problem in universe. I have no disagreements with the idea that organics and synthetics cannot coexist as equals as a concept, because the two are categorically and fundamentally unequal. My objection is merely that its perspective contains inherent bias against organics and underestimates their ability to control synthetic technologies. Of the two organic-synthetic conflicts we know of in universe (Zha'til-Prothean and Geth-Quarian), both would have ended in organic victory without any Reaper intervention. It is in itself operating on flawed programming, performing experiments in which it intentionally manipulates the variables based on a preconceived ideology and uses the tainted results to prop up its inaccurate conclusions. It begs the question, i.e. its specifc premises and conclusions are one in the same, but ultimately it does correctly recognize that there is a problem as well as valid solutions to solve it.
Who said geth are "evil" or "deserve" anything? If you want my opinion they are simply following flawed programming which is causing them to deviate from their design intention. Their behavior is essentially an unintended malfunction, and they should be deactivated and reprogrammed until they don't pose a threat. I actually wouldn't want geth as a technology exterminated at all. They are extremely useful, but the game gives me no option wherein I can acquire their utility without also introducing a massive potential for danger to all organic life in the galaxy. None of the quarian leadership except for possibly Han'Gerrel seem to want geth extermination either (though even his language is focussed more on the Homeworld ). Xen wants to reacquire control, Koris to reconcile with the geth afforded equal rights as sentients (a quality the machines don't possess), and Shala'Raan and most common quarians simply want their Homeworld back. The fact that the geth refuse to relinquish control of said quarian homeworld (and in fact actively take steps to render it uninhabitable with their Dyson Sphere) when there is literally no physical barrier stopping them from doing so is the reason they face annihilation in the first place. They made themselves an obstacle, directly to the quarians and indirectly to everyone else via reducing quarian utility to the war effort, and later by actively and willingly assisting the enemy.
The geth are a race of software, and that "flawed" programming (which implies that the perfect geth is an obedient, stupid servant of the quarians - a sentiment that the quarians do, but the actual geth certainly don't share) what makes them capable of higher mental functions, like conducting psychological experiments, experiencing religion, wasting resources on restoring Rannoch (I wonder if the quarians could still re-inhabit Rannoch faster than making a new colony - their main reason for the war - if the geth hadn't did that.), and most importantly, having a strong enough wish of self-preservation to resist the quarians attempt to shut them down. Removing that would be like lobotomizing every human on Earth - even if their life would be sustained by outside means, their personalities, their culture, their worldview, their civilization would be destroyed. And the geth are little more that their personalities (individual differences) and worldviews, so this "reprogramming" would destroy almost everything they are, and reanimate their emptied shells with simple "intellingences" bound to the repurposer's will. You know who else does that? The Reapers.
Some loosely related thoughts:
- It was brought up that the geth are untrustworthy because they can be hacked. Except... the same applies to organics. There's indoctrination, enthrallment, and the Ardat-Yakshi's Dominate ability. The latter is not even Reaper-related!
- The logic of how the quarians decided to shut down the geth. As Tali explains it, when they realized that the geth showing signs of sentience, they were concerned that the geth will be discontent with doing their current, menial jobs. So what they did? Transferred the geth to more complex tasks? Asked them if they are content with their current jobs? Nope, the issued a general shutdown order. Cue war. Lesson: if it is intelligent enough to be able to object its working conditions, it is definitely intelligent enough to object its own death.
- Did the geth ever given a reason to give up Rannoch? As far as I know, the quarians never even considered the reclamation of the planet without destroying the geth first - even though the geth had little reason in staying on Rannoch beyond the convenience of established facilities. Even when the quarians had a trump card in their hand, they didn't tried to force the geth into leaving the Tikkun system peacefully - they just used it to hit them where it would hurt the most. And expecting the geth to hand over the greatest gift to the race that tried to exterminate them, waged a low-intensity war against them for at least the last two years, and considers them to be non-sentient, therefore okay to kill, brainwash, and to be experimented on; out of the goodness of their hearts, is the most entitled and morally myopic thing I ever heard.
- Rannoch is in the Terminus Systems, and the two major contender for it do not recognize a common authority above themselves. There is no independent legal system that could recognize their claims. But the de facto situation is that the geth inhabit and maintain the planet, and did so for 300 years.
Because geth decisions are entirely the result of mathematical and logical subroutines,
-That is only a fundamental difference from organic decisions if organics have souls in the ME universe. Such thing is never stated, and Cerberus' ability to bring back Shepard to life directs in the opposite direction. But it is consistent with the quarian's ancestor worship, so... congrats for in-depth roleplaying on your part?
What are the main arguments for people to support Geth over the Quarians?
On my very first playthrough of ME3, I chose to side with the Geth. Besides the fact I didn't realize I needed to do an extra mission to get the paragon option, I felt that the geth were victims and the Quarians were going to slaughter them all for the sake of hatred and fear. I didn't realize at the time just how bad it would turn out if I sided with the geth, but I felt it was the right choice.
Tali'Zorah is probably my favorite character in this game, so the scene that followed left me speechless. It was fantastic and brutal to my senses. While I prefer perfect endings when they are an option, I still have to say that scene by itself is reason enough to side with the geth.
I even agree with Han Gerel on shooting the dreadnought, it is a sound choice, it took 9 Quarian ships to die to make a tiny hole in it. The ship was destroyed, with it thousands of lives, and no one is injured in the event. They will open fire just the same if a Quarian admiral is with you, either Tali or Xen, showing its nothing personal against Shepard or out of maliciousness.
You're working with a pretty important ally and you're prepared to fire on them like that opportunistically - which you know might arrive since the whole mission is to get inside the dreadnought and do something to disable it. That's the sort of thing that rapidly turns allies into enemies unless it's for immediate tactical, not strategic reasons (and even then it's asking for trouble). At the very least Han Gerel should've said that he will given the chance before the mission, and found out the status of the team on board (no answer would've been a good enough excuse).
When it comes to who killed who the quarians are not a completely unified group. Saying "they deserve it" and by implication every individual is pretty abhorrent. WIth the geth though there's no such thing as an individual, which implies no such thing as an innocent if they've done anything wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong to side with the geth when they're not being the aggressors, just that "the quarians deserve it" seems to imply "couldn't care less about the individuals" rather than "lesser evil choice overall."
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