275 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

"Leliana is a well-meaning fool. She will do irreparable harm to countless people in the name of "freedom". She proposes to abolish the Circles with nothing but a solemn promise from mages not to murder children. When an angry mage lashes out inside a tower, villages aren't destroyed! The Circle protects us all! Mages will die and take ordinary men with them in a war that cannot be won."

- Vivienne

 

Vivienne, if free mages are so terrible, then why hasn't Tevinter fallen into total chaos because of the supposedly inevitable creation of all those abominations? The simple fact that Tevinter still stands completely contradicts the southern Chantry's propaganda that free mages = abominations, and Vivienne is a fool for not recognizing it. Or maybe she does, but she wants to restore the system that gave her political power. I think it's more likely, though, that she really does buy into the propaganda. So why do people fail to realize that Tevinter's continued existence suggests that abominations aren't so inevitable? Even the qunari freak out about mages. What does Tevinter have that all other societies lack? A better understanding of and control over magic? Does the fear and suppression of magic ultimately lead to more cases of abominations? 

[actionhero112]

Blood mages and slavery are hardly the sign of a developed and moral civilization. In fact, I would argue that the current state of Tevinter cultural morals is a mark against freedom for mages. 

 

Lawful evil is no less evil than chaotic evil. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Blood mages and slavery are hardly the sign of a developed and moral civilization. In fact, I would argue that the current state of Tevinter cultural morals is a mark against freedom for mages. 

 

Lawful evil is no less evil than chaotic evil. 

That's not what I'm talking about. Being ruled over and enslaved by mages is not the same as all those mages being possessed by demons and triggering widespread chaos and the collapse of an entire civilization.

[Andromelek]

The right thing to do: Choose Cassandra, she will give more respect and relative freedom to mages, without actually playing to-be-fool with those who still want to mess like Fiona and she is a good woman unlike Vivienne who only wanted to earn power for herself and if is made Divide ends using an iron hand against every mage but herself.

[thats1evildude]

A couple things:

 

1) Since magic is tied largely to bloodlines, which are carefully traced in Tevinter Imperium, it is less of a shock when someone comes into age and starts demonstrating magical ability. Thus, there are fewer of the incidents involving a little girl having a nightmare and setting her house on fire.

 

2) Tevinter cares so little for the lives of non-mages that they don't mind a little collateral damage. Also, Tevinter mages kill each other with fair regularity, so I imagine the weaker specimens tend to get "weeded out."

 

But y'know, this discussion is largely theoretical until we actually get a good look at day-to-day life in Tevinter.

[sandalisthemaker]

Vivienne is so fabulous. I can't even handle it. 

[actionhero112]

That's not what I'm talking about. Being ruled over and enslaved by mages is not the same as all those mages being possessed by demons and triggering widespread chaos and the collapse of an entire civilization.

 

Tevinter almost destroyed the world (and may still yet) through the blights. They almost collapsed all of civilization. 

 

Vivienne is saying that the freedom that the mages enjoy in tevinter comes at a cost, whether it be entire villages or children.Just because Tevinter hasn't self destructed, does not mean that they do not do these things. 

[tirnoney]

Perhaps Bioware will take us to Tevinter in the next game and we'll get to find out for certain.  They do still have circles in Tevinter, we just don't know exactly how they work and as Dorian said, there are lots of Tranquil in Tevinter.  "A sentence handed down by the Magisterium."  Abuse of magic.  So they obviously take it seriously and don't just allow mages to run around setting each other on fire for fun.  Actually, another line he says in banter with Cassandra suggests there are a considerable number of tranquil as well.

 

We also know that demons tend to prey on weak minds.  That tends to be the untrained, the uneducated and the fearful.  Something that would be less common in a magocracy I suppose.

[BansheeOwnage]

In addition to what people have stated, I think it's because of Vivienne's traumatic experiences with spirits/demons in the past (possibly her harrowing?). Apparently it's revealed through banter with Cole exactly what happened, but unfortunately I was not lucky enough to trigger enough banter. Basically, she's scared. Very scared.

[BansheeOwnage]

Perhaps Bioware will take us to Tevinter in the next game and we'll get to find out for certain.  They do still have circles in Tevinter, we just don't know exactly how they work and as Dorian said, there are lots of Tranquil in Tevinter.  "A sentence handed down by the Magisterium."  Abuse of magic.  So they obviously take it seriously and don't just allow mages to run around setting each other on fire for fun.  Actually, another line he says in banter with Cassandra suggests there are a considerable number of tranquil as well.

Dorian says they're prestigious academies, not prisons (paraphrase). So I would imagine it's mostly the altus mages who attend, not the laetan mages.

[Andromelek]

Tevinter almost destroyed the world (and may still yet) through the blights. They almost collapsed all of civilization. 
 
Vivienne is saying that the freedom that the mages enjoy in tevinter comes at a cost, whether it be entire villages or children.Just because Tevinter hasn't self destructed, does not mean that they do not do these things.

Not exactly Cory & Architect's group's fault, the Primeval Thaig was older than them, and it had records of the Blight, at most they helped to spread faster that crap, also, the notes on the Veil suggest they were desperate and looking for aid rather than trying to seize the seat of the Maker.

[CosmicGnosis]

Exactly. The Blight predates Tevinter. There isn't a simple connection between the two. The circumstances surrounding the Blight seem far more complicated than a straightforward "Free mages unleashed the Blight upon the world!"

[actionhero112]

Not exactly Cory & Architect's group's fault, the Primeval Thaig was older than them, and it had records of the Blight, at most they helped to spread faster that crap, also, the notes on the Veil suggest they were desperate and looking for aid rather than trying to seize the seat of the Maker.

 

Where in Dragon Age 2 does it say that the writings in the primeval thaig that record the blight predate the original magisters? 

[CosmicGnosis]

I suppose I'm just intrigued by the fact that Tevinter isn't a crater of abominations.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In addition to what people have stated, I think it's because of Vivienne's traumatic experiences with spirits/demons in the past (possibly her harrowing?). Apparently it's revealed through banter with Cole exactly what happened, but unfortunately I was not lucky enough to trigger enough banter. Basically, she's scared. Very scared.

Cole: You're afraid. You don't have to be.

Vivienne: My dear Inquisitor, please restrain your pet demon. I do not want it addressing me.

(If Inquisitor supports Cole)

Inquisitor: He's not doing any harm, Vivienne.

Vivienne: It's a demon, darling. All it can do is harm.

(If Inquisitor supports Vivienne)

Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now.

Cole: She's afraid!

Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will control me ever again.

Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.

Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.

Vivienne: Delightful.

 

Cole: Sour smell in the tower library. Rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet without the apprentices. Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. The archivist... what was her name?

Vivienne: Get. Out.

Cole: Why did they kill her? She was just like them!

Vivienne: They helped her. Just like you did. Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning. Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Cole: You're afraid. You don't have to be.

Vivienne: My dear Inquisitor, please restrain your pet demon. I do not want it addressing me.

(If Inquisitor supports Cole)

Inquisitor: He's not doing any harm, Vivienne.

Vivienne: It's a demon, darling. All it can do is harm.

(If Inquisitor supports Vivienne)

Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now.

Cole: She's afraid!

Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will control me ever again.

Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.

Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.

Vivienne: Delightful.

 

Cole: Sour smell in the tower library. Rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet without the apprentices. Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. The archivist... what was her name?

Vivienne: Get. Out.

Cole: Why did they kill her? She was just like them!

Vivienne: They helped her. Just like you did. Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning. Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own.

 

Thank you very much!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thank you very much!

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

[Nixou]

Vivienne isn't simply talking about abominations: she's talking about angry mages losing their self-control.

 

And it's not like she doesn't have a point: the first thing Wynne -who was the nicest, kindest, most level headed person in Thedas- did when her gift manifested was setting on fire the scalp of the kid who had bullied her.

 

Of course, it's also why the Circle as an institution failed: three main games and a lot of the supplementary material bashed our heads with the fact that the Circles can only keep the average mages under control through oppression: those who are powerful or charismatic enough -that is precisely those who should be surveilled the most- will find ways to get away or to game the system to their advantage.

 

 

***

 

Tevinter cares so little for the lives of non-mages that they don't mind a little collateral damage. Also, Tevinter mages kill each other with fair regularity, so I imagine the weaker specimens tend to get "weeded out."

 

 

From conversations with Dorian, I got the impression that weak mages become low-level bureaucrats and get stuck filling reports. I'd imagine it's the powerful mages who lack patronages from established members of the elite who get weeded out when the upper-class starts perceiving them like competition: look at Erimond's Tranquility sentence: he's furious not only because he doesn't want to be lobotomized, but because he's a lord, and clearly see tranquility as a sentence reserved to commoners.

[thats1evildude]

Cole: Sour smell in the tower library. Rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet without the apprentices. Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. The archivist... what was her name?

Vivienne: Get. Out.

Cole: Why did they kill her? She was just like them!

Vivienne: They helped her. Just like you did. Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning. Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own.

 

I don't think that last one has to do with her Harrowing. That dialogue suggests there was a mage killed by the rebels for refusing to join them. "Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There was no record of any world devouring armies of monsters lead by Archdemons prior to the Magisters' experiment with the Golden City. Even if the darkspawn taint existed prior to that, it seems very likely they were the cause of the Blights.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think that last one has to do with her Harrowing. That dialogue suggests there was a mage killed by the rebels for refusing to join them. "Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning."

I was just posting that one because it is another time Cole brings up about how mages have shaped Vivienne's mistrust of them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Considering their free mages proved more than once they are threat for not only society but entire world ,viviene speaks truth.As for abomnations , lets remember they are still circles there and templars even if don't have abilities just probably magisters don't care if abomnation will burn city as long it is not them.To be real the real reason thedas wasn't destroyed by tevinter mages is that would mean end of the setting long time ago so pretty much tevinter drives on powerful hero showing up and saving the day/somone else cleaning their mess so as far they are lucking out.          

 

 

Not exactly Cory & Architect's group's fault, the Primeval Thaig was older than them, and it had records of the Blight, at most they helped to spread faster that crap, also, the notes on the Veil suggest they were desperate and looking for aid rather than trying to seize the seat of the Maker.

So? I see a lot this argument ,but fact that Primeval Thaig is older than first blight (so is entire dwarven empire) doesn't indicate that taint existed before it , as i said in another thread there are golems in this thaig and golems were invated during first blight to fight darkspawn , what means thaig was still used by dwarves during first blight.

[MisterJB]

And this couldn't havê been said in the currently popular thread which hás Vivienne's name in the title why?

At any rate, the fact that Tevinter still stands is no indication that they don't suffer Abominations in the same number or worse than in the South. All it means is that they can cope with it.

I mean, that's like saying "Third World nations still stand so that must mean their medical care is as good as those of the First World".

Furthermore, Vivienne does not mention in that quote societal collapse, only that mages kill people which they do and if they are free, they will kill even more people which they will.

[Potato Cat]

She's right though. If a mage does happen to lose control, that'll inspire mass fear and hatred of mages and cause actual witch hunts of any and all mages. Because that's the environment ordinary people live in, with ignorance of the arcane from Chantry propaganda. The actions of Anders did nothing to help that, nor did the rebellion. Vivienne does want things to get better for mages, but she knows that mages are in no position to simply demand that or else. War does not help. Acts of terrorism do not help. What helps is mages, like Vivienne, like Wynne, going out and making a difference. Showing mages are not monsters to be feared, doing good work and achieving great things. And that's precisely what Vivienne does as Divine, and allows other mages to do so.

[thesuperdarkone2]

"Leliana is a well-meaning fool. She will do irreparable harm to countless people in the name of "freedom". She proposes to abolish the Circles with nothing but a solemn promise from mages not to murder children. When an angry mage lashes out inside a tower, villages aren't destroyed! The Circle protects us all! Mages will die and take ordinary men with them in a war that cannot be won."
- Vivienne

Vivienne, if free mages are so terrible, then why hasn't Tevinter fallen into total chaos because of the supposedly inevitable creation of all those abominations? The simple fact that Tevinter still stands completely contradicts the southern Chantry's propaganda that free mages = abominations, and Vivienne is a fool for not recognizing it. Or maybe she does, but she wants to restore the system that gave her political power. I think it's more likely, though, that she really does buy into the propaganda. So why do people fail to realize that Tevinter's continued existence suggests that abominations aren't so inevitable? Even the qunari freak out about mages. What does Tevinter have that all other societies lack? A better understanding of and control over magic? Does the fear and suppression of magic ultimately lead to more cases of abominations?

Don't forget rivain or the avvar. It s more she is just biase and can't handle losing power she's obtained.