275 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Yes, it does matter. If the writers created a situation where she could never feasibly discern his true nature, even with significant effort, then that isn't incompetence on her part. You just want it to be because you don't like her.

She gives you the information right after the Corypheus fight, how is that not incompetence? After he had fled she came with the information I needed before and now is too late?
She is a joke as spymaster. She couldnt even check the background he gave to her, thats a sinal of a very competent person.

Edit: even she knew she screwed up.
"I apologize for not investigating this more thoroughly while Solas was here. He was clearly helping us, and other matters were of greater urgency, but it was an oversight nevertheless, given how little he shared with us. It is not clear what his plans are, if any, but I will continue to search."

[The Baconer]

She gives you the information right after the Corypheus fight, how is that not incompetence? After he had fled she came with the information I needed before and now is too late?
She is a joke as spymaster. She couldnt even check the background he gave to her, thats a sinal of a very competent person.

Edit: even she knew she screwed up.
"I apologize for not investigating this more thoroughly while Solas was here. He was clearly helping us, and other matters were of greater urgency, but it was an oversight nevertheless, given how little he shared with us. It is not clear what his plans are, if any, but I will continue to search."

 

She comes back with the information that he's gone, and that his motive is unclear, but you expect her to uncover that he's Fen'Harel? That he gave Corypheus the orb? You want her to extrapolate that from a background check on a nomadic-loner John Doe? Ok.

[Boost32]

She comes back with the information that he's gone, and that his motive is unclear, but you expect her to uncover that he's Fen'Harel? That he gave Corypheus the orb? You want her to extrapolate that from a background check on a nomadic-loner John Doe? Ok.

People lie for a motive, if he lied about the place he comes, is because he wants to hide something, we could have done something before he fled. Now a lunatic is on the loose and she is all "ops sorry I screwed up, but we can track him for reasons".
If that was the only time she screwed up the Inquisition I could ignore it, but she failed a lot in one game for me to think she can do her job.

[The Baconer]

People lie for a motive, if he lied about the place he comes, is because he wants to hide something, we could have done something before he fled. Now a lunatic is on the loose and she is all "ops sorry I screwed up, but we can track him for reasons".
If that was the only time she screwed up the Inquisition I could ignore it, but she failed a lot in one game for me to think she can do her job.

 

IIRC, his given origin is that he was from a "small village". Now, if he had told Leliana or whoever that he was from a "small village that no longer exists"... what then? That statement might not even be a lie.

[thesuperdarkone2]

IIRC, his given origin is that he was from a "small village". Now, if he had told Leliana or whoever that he was from a "small village that no longer exists"... what then? That statement might not even be a lie.

I swear her haters call her a mary sue and then criticize her for not being a mary sue. wut

[Boost32]

IIRC, his given origin is that he was from a "small village". Now, if he had told Leliana or whoever that he was from a "small village that no longer exists"... what then? That statement might not even be a lie.

He didnt say that the village no longer exist, what he said is in his codex. Leliana herself acknowledge she screwed up.

[Boost32]

I swear her haters call her a mary sue and then criticize her for not being a mary sue. wut

Show me a post where I called her a Mary Sue.
It must be where you found the codex in the Hissing Waste.

[The Baconer]

He didnt say that the village no longer exist, what he said is in his codex. Leliana herself acknowledge she screwed up.

 

Ah, so he said it was a small village, and that it was unlikely to appear on any map. Probably true on both accounts, but most definitely the latter. In the meantime, Leliana actually did have agents searching for the village, but it seems they only discovered what was left of the village around the same time as Corypheus' defeat.

[Boost32]

Ah, so he said it was a small village, and that it was unlikely to appear on any map. Probably true on both accounts, but most definitely the latter. In the meantime, Leliana actually did have agents searching for the village, but it seems they only discovered what was left of the village around the same time as Corypheus' defeat.

It happened because she didnt investigated it thoroughly, she even admits it.

[The Baconer]

It happened because she didnt investigated it thoroughly, she even admits it.

 

Sure, but there's confirming that he lied, and confirming that he committed a heinous crime. The only way you can get that is if Solas himself spills the beans, or Corypheus.

[Boost32]

Sure, but there's confirming that he lied, and confirming that he committed a heinous crime. The only way you can get that is if Solas himself spills the beans, or Corypheus.

I said in the end the templar was right, I know its metagaming knowledge.

I know we would never find out Solas worked out with Corypheus, but there is to much evidence that he knows more than he lets on and the Inquisitor must be a idiot and act like nothing is happening.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I said in the end the templar was right, I know its metagaming knowledge.

I know we would never find out Solas worked out with Corypheus, but there is to much evidence that he knows more than he lets on and the Inquisitor must be a idiot and act like nothing is happening.

Except he was only talking about the circle mages, NOT any other ones. Also, how do you come to the insane conclusion that what one random templar says means they know Solas is an elven god and gave the orb to corypheus.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So if the mage complained that the Inquisition was doing nothing about templars who were known to have committed heinous crimes, would you have believed him?

Sure, provided he could prove it.

 

2. How do you know Cassandra hasn't done about the supposed criminals already?

 

I do not know, but her answer to the Templar was still bad.

 

She did not say "Don't tell me how to do my job." She says that Inquisition recruits having some criminal background does not matter and to just ignore it. I do not like or agree with that answer, regardless whether or not the recruits are mages. Taking in the wrong people can be bad in the long-run, no matter how desperate the early Inquisition may have been for recruits immediately.

 

If that is what she tells someone, then it is probably not too far off from what she is doing. After all, she missed Solas.

 

3. What about any supposed criminals on the templars? Surely you can't think that every templar you recruit is some innocent saint? Why does nobody call out investigations for potential templar criminals?

 
I said that the criminals being mages was irrelevant. Since you cannot seem to put 2 and 2 together, let me confirm that yes, any such investigation of criminals should include Templars and all other mundanes. What is odd about this is that Cassandra actually has a quest that deals with hunting down apostates *and* rogue Templars, yet she overlooks those very same elements possibly infiltrating Inquisition ranks.

 

Not sure if bad writing (easy explanation) or legit character flaw (this is not the only 'miss' on her part).

 

 

4. Why do you assume Solas has anything to do with what he says?

No one assumes that. Solas just happens to prove him right, and goes to show that the Inquisition needed to be more careful with whomsoever they recruited, lest they harbored criminals and let them loose to start making trouble again.

[TK514]

She did not say "Don't tell me how to do my job." She says that Inquisition recruits having some criminal background does not matter and to just ignore it. I do not like or agree with that answer, regardless whether or not the recruits are mages. Taking in the wrong people can be bad in the long-run, no matter how desperate the early Inquisition may have been for recruits immediately.

 

Blackwall is the perfect example.  The Inquisition trusted he was a Grey Warden, used that as a justification for conscription, and suffered backlash when his deception was uncovered (which Josey waved her magic stylus and miraculously fixed).  Some due diligence on the part of ANYONE in the higher echelons of the Inquisition should have uncovered that early and thus avoided the entire problem.

 

Of course, the Inquisition is pretty incompetent about vetting anyone.  An Apostate elf, a Tevinter mage, Qunari spies, an insane bandit cell leader, a fake warden, an admitted liar and con man, a fade entity that might be a demon...seriously.  Even one of those that was out about themselves up front (so everyone but Blackwall) should have been enough to give the leaders of the Inquisition sleepless nights.

[topekaguy]

Harding was pretty cool. So they at least got one thing right. 

[Boost32]

Except he was only talking about the circle mages, NOT any other ones. Also, how do you come to the insane conclusion that what one random templar says means they know Solas is an elven god and gave the orb to corypheus.

First the only one making insanes conclusions here is you.
All I said is in the end he was right, one of the mages affiliated to the Inquisition did commit a heinous crime. Thats all, you jumped in those conclusions.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Now where did the OP go??

[dragonflight288]

Just got back from vacation.

One point I'd like to make is Cassandra addressing the Templar after COTJ.

I took her response to be along the lines of, "don't get on me for the crimes of others when the Templars are also guilty, there's blame to share so deal with it."

From Templars killing a farmer because they couldn't tell the difference between a staff and a hoe, and stealing his wedding ring to killing refugees for suspicion of being Mage-supporters, to the leaders purging all who would question their orders.

But the mages in the Inquisition at the point he makes his complaint don't seem to be guilty of any crimes beyond not being in a circle at the moment, like Minaeve.

Of course, siding with the Templars introduce us to Ser Barris, one of the best characters in the series, and working with him through war table missions leads to solving a lot of the problems with the Templars.

But the Templars have no real moral high ground to stand on either.

That's how I took that exchange.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

"Leliana is a well-meaning fool. She will do irreparable harm to countless people in the name of "freedom". She proposes to abolish the Circles with nothing but a solemn promise from mages not to murder children. When an angry mage lashes out inside a tower, villages aren't destroyed! The Circle protects us all! Mages will die and take ordinary men with them in a war that cannot be won."

- Vivienne

 

Vivienne, if free mages are so terrible, then why hasn't Tevinter fallen into total chaos because of the supposedly inevitable creation of all those abominations? The simple fact that Tevinter still stands completely contradicts the southern Chantry's propaganda that free mages = abominations, and Vivienne is a fool for not recognizing it. Or maybe she does, but she wants to restore the system that gave her political power. I think it's more likely, though, that she really does buy into the propaganda. So why do people fail to realize that Tevinter's continued existence suggests that abominations aren't so inevitable? Even the qunari freak out about mages. What does Tevinter have that all other societies lack? A better understanding of and control over magic? Does the fear and suppression of magic ultimately lead to more cases of abominations? 

 

Mages aren't "free' in the imperium. The ruling families dominate the Imperium and they dictate the social norms all respected mages must conform with. A mages life is controled by quite a lot in Tevinter, from their family obligations to their responsibility to their circle. There is a lot of structure guiding a mage in Tevinter. 

 

Its not like Tevinter mages are at any less risk of possession than any other mage. I imagine that scandals as big as a family member being possessed are avoided for obvious reason in Tevinter. Such weakness would immediately be prayed upon by rival families. So there is a strong natural inclination for Tevinter mages to self regulate themselves.

 

Such social pressures don't exist in the south since mages are barred from power and don't have the same social completion.  A strong circle with strong ties to the chantry provides a structure for mages to live under and protection from anti-mage bias, which happens to be strong in the south.

 

Keeping Mages separate from commoners isn't even something many mages would object to. Being treated like prisoners of the templars is another matter entirely.

[Reaver102]

Blackwall is the perfect example.  The Inquisition trusted he was a Grey Warden, used that as a justification for conscription, and suffered backlash when his deception was uncovered (which Josey waved her magic stylus and miraculously fixed).  Some due diligence on the part of ANYONE in the higher echelons of the Inquisition should have uncovered that early and thus avoided the entire problem.

 

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration seeing as not even Warden's were able to uncover his identity, why would the inquisition fare any better?  

 

Though I wonder sometimes based on the dialog of when you talk with Cullen in Blackwall's jail that perhaps Leliana knew all along.  

[dragonflight288]

Blackwall is the perfect example.  The Inquisition trusted he was a Grey Warden, used that as a justification for conscription, and suffered backlash when his deception was uncovered (which Josey waved her magic stylus and miraculously fixed).  Some due diligence on the part of ANYONE in the higher echelons of the Inquisition should have uncovered that early and thus avoided the entire problem.

 

Of course, the Inquisition is pretty incompetent about vetting anyone.  An Apostate elf, a Tevinter mage, Qunari spies, an insane bandit cell leader, a fake warden, an admitted liar and con man, a fade entity that might be a demon...seriously.  Even one of those that was out about themselves up front (so everyone but Blackwall) should have been enough to give the leaders of the Inquisition sleepless nights.

 

The Inquisition didn't really go out of their way to vett the people they recruited, I feel, as most of the resources were spent on war table missions (which are a huge success, depending on the Inquisitor's choices) and solving the breach, (another huge success in the end.) 

 

Solas never actually lies to the Inquisitor and the Inquistion, he just omits vital details. 

 

Blackwall was so successful in fooling everyone that even the wardens were fooled, and he is only caught as Rainier because his guilt over leaving his men to take the fall got to him and he revealed himself. 

 

Sera is quite thoroughly vetted, if you read her codex, and is constantly updated, but she is also adding a large number of "additions" to the report. It doesn't help that she is outright vague most of the time, but as she reveals herself, her codex shows that Leliana and Josephine followed through to verify what she says. 

 

Varric is a master liar and story-teller and was able to hide the fact that he knew exactly where Hawke was from Cassandra, while the Seekers and the Chantry were well-organized, is quite a feat in and of itself and Leliana was trying to find the Hero of Ferelden. 

 

It think it's less the incompetence of the Inquisition and its agents and more the competence of the members hired. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Someone hasn't realized trespasser has rendered these threads pointless

[dragonflight288]

Someone hasn't realized trespasser has rendered these threads pointless

 

Don't spoil anything! I just got off vacation and I'm still downloading the DLC!

[Boost32]

Now I want to know how people will justify Leliana being the worst Spymaster ever after the Trepasser events.

[Andromelek]

Now I want to know how people will justify Leliana being the worst Spymaster ever after the Trepasser events.

Yeah, she got two different sets of better spies under her nose all the time, and she even was unable to stop the House of Repose and a bad writer dwarf from entering on Skyhold, seriously, girl, you met Tallis, how is that you never learned anything of her?