275 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

If they don't contribute, the Circle won't provide them a living, only a prison cell. The circle isn't some form of welfare, it's penal labour. 

 

Sure. Except it's not, the fact mages like Uldred could sponge around the circle and never contribute in any meaningful fashion disproves your assertion.

 

B.S. someone else about your idealized vision of Circle life, if life is so luxurious there why are so many apostates trying to escape it?

 

Most mages don't try to escape, reprobates like Anders are the minority. Most mages weren't even in favour of the rebellion, the vote only carried because Wynne died and they decided her life long libertarian son could vote on behalf of the aequetarians for no particular reason. Now why don't you take your faux-leftist populism back to your high school social studies class, its needs more work. 

[TK514]

 

Luxury services like health care, magical enchantments, weapons of war, increased productivity via creation magic. These should be public services available to everyone but the Chantry hoards it for itself and it's sycophant minions. And the Circle, what choice do they have but to accept whatever tariffs, taxes, or other ways the Chantry can wet it's beak on the mages' hard work? They're prisoners marginalized and ostracized by society. If they don't contribute, the Circle won't provide them a living, only a prison cell. The circle isn't some form of welfare, it's penal labour. B.S. someone else about your idealized vision of Circle life, if life is so luxurious there why are so many apostates trying to escape it?

Three games worth of discussion pretty much make all of this factually wrong.  The Circle controls its own finances and reaps the rewards of its output.  There has never been anything, that I recall, saying the Circles pay taxes of tithes to the Chantry, and everyone in a Circle not undergoing some kind of punishment detail has the same standard of living as far as we can determine from the games.  They are given food, education, access to storehouses of information, and so on.  The only people in any way confined, beyond the normal confines of the Circle itself, are those who have in some way transgressed.

 

If there is proof otherwise, beyond the recent Templar crackdown (thanks, Anders), I'd love to see it.

[Andromelek]

<facepalm> I repeat myself for third time that their disasters can destroy whole nations doesn't mean mage is physical god , so fact that you are walking nuke in human form doesn't mean you can defeat normal person in combat only that they will cause disaster when they will explode...

I don't have to argue about that ,he remebers events that are important in this discussion that is all it matters ,also no one had throw anything on him pretty much it all could be result of his actions and playing with magic/things (or both) he shouldn't.Well sure but none of this points it was before black city trip.

Of course treachery is reason to be mad on invividual ,and from what i know you can kill alistair but as i said treachery isn't always despicable and pointed examples.I don't know even what about you are talking here so... .Once again she was reason she was scheming with flemeth and she worked with flemeth so pretty much now you are saying if you are helping your boss murder people you are innocent because it was your boss plan and you were just helping him.

False , if you remove mages humans will technologically progress because there will be demand ,so if that was reason humans wouldn't progress without mages as well.In fact laziness was reason why humans came up with certain technology.Once again another cultures with technological progress doesn't not use mages to solve their problems , dwarves because they don't have mages and qunari because as i said they fear mages and don't want their society to depend on mages.Also it isn't true in first place, qunari don't despise humans as pretty much most cultures that aren't qunari including elves and dwarves , elves despise humans because pretty much bad blood between them and dwarves don't despise humans in first place.

From what i know Chantry have lead EM against 3 forces Tevinter Empire after they broke from chantry and started screw with mages (so pretty much against mages) , Against Dales what i will grant you was normal war between nations , and qunari that you are talking about and attacked thedas.EM you are talking about never happened pretty much it was just epilogue that were said by devs to be just a rumors.Orlais fought wars for expansion (as pretty much qunari) while mages disasters were not expansion but vast destruction caused either by single mage or group of them.

Fiona began war because she was mage , stupid mage if she wasn't mage in first place she would have no means to start war and cause as much damage as she did ,avoiding that she would have no reason to start war.

Well i see no problem here.Not rly, in first place many laws are broken by governments in order to protect nations. Second that in first place most laws doesn't exist because of morality only because of pragmatism ,so pretty much laws that say you can't kill are there not because killing others is "evil" only that it would lead to chaos if everyone was allowed to kill.

Fine, you are right, but the samples you are pointing out (Connor and Magisters) were bad decisions rather than accidental explosions.


That's debatable because 2/3 the samples you pointed out were willingly helping without asking or getting anything in return, and Alistair's still counting as despicable for his duty to the Wardens and that he was only interested on his vengeance. And no, that's not the case, there is no proof of Yavana going too far from her swamp, so she had no way to know everything what Flemeth was doing, perhaps Flemeth sporadically visited her but surely she had no chance to give her opinion on Flemeth's sudden agreements, receiving a gift that was robbed doesn't turn you in the guilty of the crime, assuming it was a crime, because Flemeth did what? All these accusations are based on "things would be better if Maric wouldn't left", we are uncertain of that, of course he was more clever than Fiona, Cailan or Alistair but Loghain's nationalism was too strong, Maric's presence does not change the Architect's mistake nor Archdemon's behaviour, he likely would go out of the Deep Roads on the same time he did, meanwhile he couldn't be slain and the horde would weaken Ferelden's forces, if Maric was forced to ask for Orlesians' support, he could have been betrayed anyway, and each time we touch the subject, you willingly ignore that Maric agreed with Flemeth's terms, tyrants and empires rise and fall regardless what, Maric could have waited or could have tried to win the war without Flemeth's aid, yet he decided he wanted to be the one who would free Ferelden so, he is as guilty as Flemeth for anything happened, yet everyone seems to forget that point. (surely because Flemeth and Yavana are mages and they have forbidden to deal anything on their favour but Maric is not mage so he can strike deals to earn a goal for his own)

Again, that's general humanity's fault rather than just mages' fault, while some inventions were done for laziness, people won't even make the try if they have a magic wand at their disposal.

Here it's just stupidity and bad choices again, Wynne was also a mage, and like most of mages was against war, as someone pointed out on this thread, her death was what gave the upper hand to Fiona's supporters to get more votes for war, also, being fair, Divine's soft hand and Lambert's bitter taste for being double crossed by a Tevinteran mage had influence to unleash war.

Here's the part I don't understand, you want to execute mages because they can do more immediate messes, but you support humanity's behaviour to act as deuches and ignore moral when they want something, because they do so, ignoring moral on crisis situations can be justified but ignore moral to achieve some goal for it's own is not, mages or not, that's a danger. Also If I remember correctly , the EM on elves was unjustified because they were asking something they were promised, and Chantry painted them a middle finger and set an army against them.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Three games worth of discussion pretty much make all of this factually wrong.  The Circle controls its own finances and reaps the rewards of its output.  There has never been anything, that I recall, saying the Circles pay taxes of tithes to the Chantry, and everyone in a Circle not undergoing some kind of punishment detail has the same standard of living as far as we can determine from the games.  They are given food, education, access to storehouses of information, and so on.  The only people in any way confined, beyond the normal confines of the Circle itself, are those who have in some way transgressed.

 

If there is proof otherwise, beyond the recent Templar crackdown (thanks, Anders), I'd love to see it.

A more apt description is the Circle is given the "illusion of control". Ask yourself, Why have I never seen a Circle mage with their own wages, or allowances, or even personal property? Anders said that the only thing he managed to keep when he enters the Circle is a pillow by his mother so we can assume every mage who enters the Circle starts out poor. When Fenris asks why Bethany doesn't wear a nice orlesian dress, she says, "Not Circle compliant" so even their clothes are standard issue.And mail supplied by family can be considered contraband by the Templars as templars tooks away Isabela's books from Bethany for not being "non-curricular". So how does one make a living in the Circle? Through the First Enchanter, who is given the responsibility of upkeeping the Circle. So instead of the Chantry or Templars taking the money out of the mages' hands themselves, they have a token figurehead of one of the mages own do it for them. It's true First Enchanters run the business of the Circle but they also control everyone's finances. He gives the mages two ways to earn money as far as we know: enchanting or magical services to the community. Problem is in order to get enchantments they need to Tranquilize their own and also have to buy the lyrium supplied by the Chantry who can sell it to the Circles at any price they want. In fact, they need to buy that lyrium anyways just to conduct their Harrowing so unless they want all their members to be forcibly Tranquil, they have to buy from the Chantry at the set price they dictate. Now lets say the Circle can sell magical services like magical medicine and such. Problem is the Chantry holds the Circle in an iron fist. They decide who gets to leave the Circle and as the middleman, can demand "tithes" or "donations" from the nobility to facilitate doing business with the Circle and since the mages' only means of employment is this or enchantments by the tranquil, the can hardly refuse unless they want to starve. Since the Circle doesn't operate under a free market, the Chantry always profits and the Circle's lifestyle is determined by how much meager profits they can yeild after the mages deduce whatever set cost it took to grease the palms of the Chantry to do buisness and all of that doesn't go to the individual, it goes to upkeeping the Circle. Yes education is mandatory and may be exceptional, but you can still live in a shithole like the Gallows. The mages aren't given a luxurious gilded cage, it's a prison maintained by themselves. Thus Penal Labour.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Fine, you are right, but the samples you are pointing out (Connor and Magisters) were bad decisions rather than accidental explosions.


That's debatable because 2/3 the samples you pointed out were willingly helping without asking or getting anything in return, and Alistair's still counting as despicable for his duty to the Wardens and that he was only interested on his vengeance. And no, that's not the case, there is no proof of Yavana going too far from her swamp, so she had no way to know everything what Flemeth was doing, perhaps Flemeth sporadically visited her but surely she had no chance to give her opinion on Flemeth's sudden agreements, receiving a gift that was robbed doesn't turn you in the guilty of the crime, assuming it was a crime, because Flemeth did what? All these accusations are based on "things would be better if Maric wouldn't left", we are uncertain of that, of course he was more clever than Fiona, Cailan or Alistair but Loghain's nationalism was too strong, Maric's presence does not change the Architect's mistake nor Archdemon's behaviour, he likely would go out of the Deep Roads on the same time he did, meanwhile he couldn't be slain and the horde would weaken Ferelden's forces, if Maric was forced to ask for Orlesians' support, he could have been betrayed anyway, and each time we touch the subject, you willingly ignore that Maric agreed with Flemeth's terms, tyrants and empires rise and fall regardless what, Maric could have waited or could have tried to win the war without Flemeth's aid, yet he decided he wanted to be the one who would free Ferelden so, he is as guilty as Flemeth for anything happened, yet everyone seems to forget that point. (surely because Flemeth and Yavana are mages and they have forbidden to deal anything on their favour but Maric is not mage so he can strike deals to earn a goal for his own)

Again, that's general humanity's fault rather than just mages' fault, while some inventions were done for laziness, people won't even make the try if they have a magic wand at their disposal.

Here it's just stupidity and bad choices again, Wynne was also a mage, and like most of mages was against war, as someone pointed out on this thread, her death was what gave the upper hand to Fiona's supporters to get more votes for war, also, being fair, Divine's soft hand and Lambert's bitter taste for being double crossed by a Tevinteran mage had influence to unleash war.

Here's the part I don't understand, you want to execute mages because they can do more immediate messes, but you support humanity's behaviour to act as deuches and ignore moral when they want something, because they do so, ignoring moral on crisis situations can be justified but ignore moral to achieve some goal for it's own is not, mages or not, that's a danger. Also If I remember correctly , the EM on elves was unjustified because they were asking something they were promised, and Chantry painted them a middle finger and set an army against them.

 

Doesn't matter, either way disasters on large scale caused by mage individuals after all many accidents are caused by bad decision making.

 

Perhaps but again if that is debatable then that alistair is despicable is, in first place his "treachery" consist of going his merry way so it isn't that he harrmed someone and stabbed you in back and then pretty much he had rather solid reasons on moral ground like leliana and wynne to leave.Also yes Yavana knew about flemeth plans (and in first place she was manipulator herself) as she was one who went after Marric so again she wasn't innocent puppy that didn't knew nothing about flemeths plans that you keep trying paint her as.It would be better as ferelden would have person that was very good king ,and no Marric presence wouldn't affect architect or archdemon but would affect ferelden and people like loghain.And that marric agreed is irrelevant here because as i said it were schemes of witches that costed ferelden great king if not their schemes marric still would rule ferelden so well...        

 

Whether it is humanity fault or not is doesn't matter, because mages are sole factor as i said for lack of technological progress among humans so pretty much their lack will push humans to advance and by that sooner or later would be able compete with qunari in this matter.

 

Once again it was both to repeat myself if she wasn't mage in first place she wouldn't have reason to start this war ,avoiding she wouldn't have means to start it.That mage is stupid doesn't excuse him/her and disasters they cause in first place that just makes them more dangerous.   

 

I want execute mages because they are almost impossible to control individual threat for society and even humankind ,so unless want me to want kill all humans for same reason what wouldn't make sense ,i don't see problem here.Didn't elves attacked human settlements before chantry declared EM?   

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 O.O

 

 

Wow, dude. Even the Qunari are not that extreme!

[Andromelek]

Doesn't matter, either way disasters on large scale caused by mage individuals after all many accidents are caused by bad decision making.

Perhaps but again if that is debatable then that alistair is despicable is, in first place his "treachery" consist of going his merry way so it isn't that he harrmed someone and stabbed you in back and then pretty much he had rather solid reasons on moral ground like leliana and wynne to leave.Also yes Yavana knew about flemeth plans (and in first place she was manipulator herself) as she was one who went after Marric so again she wasn't innocent puppy that didn't knew nothing about flemeths plans that you keep trying paint her as.It would be better as ferelden would have person that was very good king ,and no Marric presence wouldn't affect architect or archdemon but would affect ferelden and people like loghain.And that marric agreed is irrelevant here because as i said it were schemes of witches that costed ferelden great king if not their schemes marric still would rule ferelden so well...

Whether it is humanity fault or not is doesn't matter, because mages are sole factor as i said for lack of technological progress among humans so pretty much their lack will push humans to advance and by that sooner or later would be able compete with qunari in this matter.

Once again it was both to repeat myself if she wasn't mage in first place she wouldn't have reason to start this war ,avoiding she wouldn't have means to start it.That mage is stupid doesn't excuse him/her and disasters they cause in first place that just makes them more dangerous.

I want execute mages because they are almost impossible to control individual threat for society and even humankind ,so unless want me to want kill all humans for same reason what wouldn't make sense ,i don't see problem here.Didn't elves attacked human settlements before chantry declared EM?

Where are your accidental nukes then?

It's not debatable, he is bound on duty with Wardens and he owes HOF for babysitting him, the only reason of why he didn't try to take down Loghain and Warden was because he was surrounded by a lot of armed nobles, while Shale, Wynne and Leliana only had to deal with three dudes and were being supported by Caridin or the Guardian respectively. And no, as I pointed before being Witches doesn't make them telepaths nor fortune tellers, even with Mythal Flemeth is unable to be sure of many things, and Yavana doesn't have her personal bound goddess, in fact she didn't shown to have the same bag of tricks, she didn't even shapeshifted, furthermore, she delayed a time on rescuing Maric, so she was not expecting him. And pretty sure such schematics you claim they have wouldn't work if Maric would refuse, but again, since Maric is no mage, you can't see anything wrong with him acceding to a deal with mages, and no, Loghain is nationalist, Cailan's incompetence does not change the effectives Ferelden has and Maric would have to request aid to Orlais, something that would have led Loghain to betray him.

Oh, yeah, it can be humanity's fault but still being mages' fault, I understand your "logic" :v

She may would not have reasons to begin a war, but magic was not the mean to beginning it, pretty sure that fighting one dude, no matter how powerful is, does not qualify as war, magic doesn't make war, numbers do, and you have dozen of examples of common dudes beginning wars without any magic.

I do, if you want to kill mages I want you to kill all the mankind once and for all, I see something too wrong with people pointing out with the finger some specific set of people to blame them for what's going wrong, everything can be a threat, eventually everything can become a threat of the same height of the things you want to destroy, Reapers can be from other game, they maybe don't count as AI but they definitely surge from wit as any technology, and you are not going to say me that their mess is not bigger than the messes the mages do, now I know it's useless try to reason with you, the last time I allowed you to have the last word, this time, even if I do so for merely fun, I won't let you.

Edit: And yes elves attacked Chantry, after asking nicely give them what they were promised, but they were denied.

[TK514]

A more apt description is the Circle is given the "illusion of control". Ask yourself, Why have I never seen a Circle mage with their own wages, or allowances, or even personal property? Anders said that the only thing he managed to keep when he enters the Circle is a pillow by his mother so we can assume every mage who enters the Circle starts out poor. When Fenris asks why Bethany doesn't wear a nice orlesian dress, she says, "Not Circle compliant" so even their clothes are standard issue.And mail supplied by family can be considered contraband by the Templars as templars tooks away Isabela's books from Bethany for not being "non-curricular". So how does one make a living in the Circle? Through the First Enchanter, who is given the responsibility of upkeeping the Circle. So instead of the Chantry or Templars taking the money out of the mages' hands themselves, they have a token figurehead of one of the mages own do it for them. It's true First Enchanters run the business of the Circle but they also control everyone's finances. He gives the mages two ways to earn money as far as we know: enchanting or magical services to the community. Problem is in order to get enchantments they need to Tranquilize their own and also have to buy the lyrium supplied by the Chantry who can sell it to the Circles at any price they want. In fact, they need to buy that lyrium anyways just to conduct their Harrowing so unless they want all their members to be forcibly Tranquil, they have to buy from the Chantry at the set price they dictate. Now lets say the Circle can sell magical services like magical medicine and such. Problem is the Chantry holds the Circle in an iron fist. They decide who gets to leave the Circle and as the middleman, can demand "tithes" or "donations" from the nobility to facilitate doing business with the Circle and since the mages' only means of employment is this or enchantments by the tranquil, the can hardly refuse unless they want to starve. Since the Circle doesn't operate under a free market, the Chantry always profits and the Circle's lifestyle is determined by how much meager profits they can yeild after the mages deduce whatever set cost it took to grease the palms of the Chantry to do buisness and all of that doesn't go to the individual, it goes to upkeeping the Circle. Yes education is mandatory and may be exceptional, but you can still live in a shithole like the Gallows. The mages aren't given a luxurious gilded cage, it's a prison maintained by themselves. Thus Penal Labour.

 

How convenient of you to forget the entire Lucrosian fraternity.

 

Everyone agrees that Kirkwall was staffed by lunatics.  Hardly a useful example of what happens in the other Circles.

 

Nowhere is it said that the Chantry charges either the Circles or the Templars for lyrium.  If you have evidence otherwise, I'd welcome it.  Along the same vein, nowhere is it said the Chantry charges any tithes, taxes or other levies on Circle goods or production.  If you're going to present your speculation and headcanon as fact, we're going to have to see some codex entries and conversations.

[Medhia_Nox]

@OP:  When/if we do get to Tevinter - you're going to find out that the mages regulate each other with draconian politics and cutthroat maneuvers that land dangerous ones crushed under the heel of the ones that keep themselves under control.

 

Your Tevinter paradise is going to be hellish for all except for the upper tier of mages (which, of course, every mage fan on here thinks they would "of course" be a part of since they're such exemplars of self-control in their real lives.)

[Drasanil]

Your Tevinter paradise is going to be hellish for all except for the upper tier of mages (which, of course, every mage fan on here thinks they would "of course" be a part of since they're such exemplars of self-control in their real lives.)

 

A ludicrous proposition, naturally. Only those recognised by the official Tevinter Support Thread could ever hope to aspire to such lofty heights    

[MadMadCarl]

Holy ****! have to say it, for the title i imagined a leliana hate thread, but it's a savage mage hate thread, and you reached the point to speak of killing children? it smells that this thread is gonna be closed soon, and i think some people here really need a therapy.

.

Is not funny how the most aggressive and foolish mage haters tend to like japanese cartoons?

[dragonflight288]

Holy ****! have to say it, for the title i imagined a leliana hate thread, but it's a savage mage hate thread, and you reached the point to speak of killing children? it smells that this thread is gonna be closed soon, and i think some people here really need a therapy.
.
Is not funny how the most aggressive and foolish mage haters tend to like japanese cartoons?

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

[Lady Artifice]

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

 

I think Xil's as earnest as they come, though. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

 

TKS is a person with a very narrow viewpoint.

 

Just curious though, how do you view the conscription of rebel mages on the grounds that they allied themselves with Tevinter ?

[Steelcan]

I think Xil's as earnest as they come, though. 

unspeakably frightening as that is

[Yaroub]

Leliana story life is harden Leliana or soften her , she's confused , lack foresight and can't make up her mind.

 

As much as i like her she can't handle such position , she would cause annihilation to Thedas with her decisions , mages need to be Disciplined and Leliana is the wrong candidate for that role.

 

The circle with all it's minor faults still works , mages keep proving and repeating  their errors through all of Thedas history , a mage can't live a normal life like normal folks , circle is a just solution.

[The Baconer]

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

 

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Warder is proof that yes you can be serious when supporting cruel decisions.

[Lady Artifice]

unspeakably frightening as that is

Dramatically put, but yes. Not necessarily comforting.

I give her credit for a kind of bravery, though. She seems to be able to face any degree of scorn and mockery without backing down. 

[Lady Artifice]

Warder is proof that yes you can be serious when supporting cruel decisions.

 

I think it's possible that you might have missed his point. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Where are your accidental nukes then?

It's not debatable, he is bound on duty with Wardens and he owes HOF for babysitting him, the only reason of why he didn't try to take down Loghain and Warden was because he was surrounded by a lot of armed nobles, while Shale, Wynne and Leliana only had to deal with three dudes and were being supported by Caridin or the Guardian respectively. And no, as I pointed before being Witches doesn't make them telepaths nor fortune tellers, even with Mythal Flemeth is unable to be sure of many things, and Yavana doesn't have her personal bound goddess, in fact she didn't shown to have the same bag of tricks, she didn't even shapeshifted, furthermore, she delayed a time on rescuing Maric, so she was not expecting him. And pretty sure such schematics you claim they have wouldn't work if Maric would refuse, but again, since Maric is no mage, you can't see anything wrong with him acceding to a deal with mages, and no, Loghain is nationalist, Cailan's incompetence does not change the effectives Ferelden has and Maric would have to request aid to Orlais, something that would have led Loghain to betray him.

Oh, yeah, it can be humanity's fault but still being mages' fault, I understand your "logic" :v

She may would not have reasons to begin a war, but magic was not the mean to beginning it, pretty sure that fighting one dude, no matter how powerful is, does not qualify as war, magic doesn't make war, numbers do, and you have dozen of examples of common dudes beginning wars without any magic.

I do, if you want to kill mages I want you to kill all the mankind once and for all, I see something too wrong with people pointing out with the finger some specific set of people to blame them for what's going wrong, everything can be a threat, eventually everything can become a threat of the same height of the things you want to destroy, Reapers can be from other game, they maybe don't count as AI but they definitely surge from wit as any technology, and you are not going to say me that their mess is not bigger than the messes the mages do, now I know it's useless try to reason with you, the last time I allowed you to have the last word, this time, even if I do so for merely fun, I won't let you.

Edit: And yes elves attacked Chantry, after asking nicely give them what they were promised, but they were denied.

 

LoL and where i said anyting about accidental nukes, unless you are saying about mages ,all i said that that mages pose threat on large scale like nukes but are worse because pretty much can't be taken away from individual and can explode at any moment because of their bad decision making.  

 

It is debatable (but once again you are heavily biased when it comes to alistair) in first place grey warden and wardens failed to live to his moral standards by sparing guy that was responsible for killing wardens and his friends and hunting them.Not, rly in first place again it seems like your bias there is 0 evidence that alistair would attack you , in fact he doesn't even if you decide to execute him so it isn't he would lose anything by doing that ,also pretty much leliana outright admits in dai that it was battle she couldn't have won. <Facpelam> literally proved that Yavana knew and was scheming with flemeth by simple fact she was one who went to find marric so it is not once again she was innocent flower that was unaware flemeth schemes and not taking part in them in first place... Not rly, once again to repeat Marric wasn't scheming in first place, it was witches schemes were reason why ferelden lost their king, mage or not ,if not witches marric would have stayed in ferelden.Eee , of course it isn't like having competent king is big deal and affect anything... avoiding that marric was loghain best friend and considering way he speaks about marric it affects loghain a lot.

 

Read it again, what i said mages are sole factor responsible for lack technological progress , it can be humanity fault at the same as mages fault because in first human kind let allowed to this happen but won't change fact as i said if not mages there would be technological progress.

 

Once again i will have to repeat myself she would have no reason to start war , and then she wouldn't have means to lead and start war unless you think that person can scream "war!" and it starts ,in fact if they weren't mages wouldn't cause nowhere near destruction and trouble they did.Wars are lead by entire nations and require power and resources that fiona would simply lack without being mage.

 

LoL , in first place it doesn't make any sense, so that i kill mages to stabilize society and protect humankind means to i should kill human kind to stablize society (that would be gone if humans killed) and avoiding that killing humankind would rather be poor action to protect it... And once again that everything is threat is irrelevant what matters is to what big.And yes reapers where threat and were treated as such for 3 games so i don't see problems avoiding it were 2 separate settings. 

 

And what they were denied ,from what i know at least to my knowledge chantry didn't promise them anything.  

 

 

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

 

This post pretty much shows how little you know about my approach in fist place.

 

In first place if not mages world would not have been destroyed because incidents that were threatening were pretty much mages doing.While i will give you that mages played instrumental role in pushing qunari away ,in first place they did massive amount of destruction in Thedas and as im discussing tramped technological progress among humans what as i said sooner or later would allow combat qunari.Also i already explained (long time ago and many times) joining is not problem all you need to do is to spare small group of mages and make them to do so while being contained properly.

 

Also yes im incapable of adopting my approach but simply because game doesn't allow me and im forced either way for soft approach toward mages, and pretty sure in future we will be forced to deal with crap mages are still causing.If mages aren't as bad as i say who started blights ,tried to destroy veil ,brainwash humakind? Answer mages so yes they are as bad im saying because im saying they are that bad.

[Andromelek]

LoL and where i said anyting about accidental nukes, unless you are saying about mages ,all i said that that mages pose threat on large scale like nukes but are worse because pretty much can't be taken away from individual and can explode at any moment because of their bad decision making.

It is debatable (but once again you are heavily biased when it comes to alistair) in first place grey warden and wardens failed to live to his moral standards by sparing guy that was responsible for killing wardens and his friends and hunting them.Not, rly in first place again it seems like your bias there is 0 evidence that alistair would attack you , in fact he doesn't even if you decide to execute him so it isn't he would lose anything by doing that ,also pretty much leliana outright admits in dai that it was battle she couldn't have won. <Facpelam> literally proved that Yavana knew and was scheming with flemeth by simple fact she was one who went to find marric so it is not once again she was innocent flower that was unaware flemeth schemes and not taking part in them in first place... Not rly, once again to repeat Marric wasn't scheming in first place, it was witches schemes were reason why ferelden lost their king, mage or not ,if not witches marric would have stayed in ferelden.Eee , of course it isn't like having competent king is big deal and affect anything... avoiding that marric was loghain best friend and considering way he speaks about marric it affects loghain a lot.

Read it again, what i said mages are sole factor responsible for lack technological progress , it can be humanity fault at the same as mages fault because in first human kind let allowed to this happen but won't change fact as i said if not mages there would be technological progress.

Once again i will have to repeat myself she would have no reason to start war , and then she wouldn't have means to lead and start war unless you think that person can scream "war!" and it starts ,in fact if they weren't mages wouldn't cause nowhere near destruction and trouble they did.Wars are lead by entire nations and require power and resources that fiona would simply lack without being mage.

LoL , in first place it doesn't make any sense, so that i kill mages to stabilize society and protect humankind means to i should kill human kind to stablize society (that would be gone if humans killed) and avoiding that killing humankind would rather be poor action to protect it... And once again that everything is threat is irrelevant what matters is to what big.And yes reapers where threat and were treated as such for 3 games so i don't see problems avoiding it were 2 separate settings.

And what they were denayed ,from what i know at least to my knowledge chantry didn't promise them anything.

That's how you began the whole fight, you said they "accidentally" explode, but the big explosions as I've pointed out, were not as accidental as you say because rituals were made first, and yes, there is way to take magic from individual, ask to the tranquil, I've not seen anyone being immune to such ritual, nor permanently recovering from it.

I'm not biased when it comes to traitors, I always try to make sure they'll suffer, Leliana was a very "inspired" person and that's why she helped, no reward was requested, and ultimately her death is retconned if killed, that's not my fault, and whoever is able to kick the Inquisition's ass will kick her anyway. Shale even said that she was following the Warden because it was interesting but that she could quit at any moment, in fact nothing can be done for her prior to her crisis point, so, Shale doesn't count, Wynne can count as traitor because she has to get the Circle saved in order to join, but she dies regardless what, and she also is the only party member who saves HoF's life without any condition (except being on the party of course) Loghain gets poetic justice if he's get to live (and you can be sure he also will die because I won't kill my Hawke to save a treacherous ass) and no, if Alistair is not killed in Origins no one will make sure he'll suffer with some poetic justice nor kick his ass regardless Wardens choice, so, he is the only traitor who has chance to escape, and I won't allow it (beside keeping him means that Loghain won't get poetic justice) so I kill him without chance to the honorable death, and he had it coming because he was being explained that Loghain would be an expendable pawn in the hands of the Wardens and that Wardens philosophy consists on giving second chances even for criminals, but Maker forbid someone who wronged him has any place for second chances. And you are biased on Witches of the Wilds (like if you wouldn't be already biased with any mage (you have spent a lot of time on exalting mages' mistakes and diminishing any one else's by saying "that's normal human behaviour") :v...) of course, your bias on these mages is worse because your assessment of them is that "they know the script" (if I recall correctly those were your exact words) :v pretty sure even Flemeth can be surprised and pretty sure she didn't stalked Maric his whole life, letting aside you are trying to whitewash the fact he took a choice that could affect his country.

Because they could make the life easier doesn't mean they are the ones to blame, I do not blame machines for turning current society into a lot of slobs, I blame the people for not knowing how to make proper use of them without becoming too dependant of them.

You didn't read did you? I said that while she wouldn't have reasons to start a war, magic was not actually the mean she used to beginning it, she couldn't begin a war without supporters but she didn't had a good plan nor a proper notion of how to fight a war, magic availed them nothing, they failed and lead someone to the abyss does not require magic, letting aside even more biases here, because if Fiona begins a war because she is a stupid mage she is wrong for being a stupid mage but if Celene and Gaspard decide they are going to f*ck off everyone in the middle of their struggle they are right, because they are not mages and that's the typical human behaviour.

And you are such a fool, you are saying that wiping out a certain group of people will bring order to a "society" that always will find the way to screw it and fall in chaos again, even if there would be a way to suppress humanity's moronic behaviour, their sole ignorance shakes the nature out of balance, that will affect them, and hunger and diseases are not something that would bring order to a society either. and I don't think you would mind to build a logic robot to submit them, the truth is humanity alone will ever lead to chaos, they would require an oppressive babysitter without feelings and yet, that wouldn't be guarantee of success.

The Chantry didn't, Andraste did, and since the Chantry spreads the word of Andraste and manages the lands she conquered, is not illogical ask them something that their mistress promised, but instead of any negotiation, it seems that the Chantry decided to delete from the Chant of Light the parts that bounded Andraste's words to elves, then they tried by the force.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's how you began the whole fight, you said they "accidentally" explode, but the big explosions as I've pointed out, were not as accidental as you say because rituals were made first, and yes, there is way to take magic from individual, ask to the tranquil, I've not seen anyone being immune to such ritual, nor permanently recovering from it.

I'm not biased when it comes to traitors, I always try to make sure they'll suffer, Leliana was a very "inspired" person and that's why she helped, no reward was requested, and ultimately her death is retconned if killed, that's not my fault, and whoever is able to kick the Inquisition's ass will kick her anyway. Shale even said that she was following the Warden because it was interesting but that she could quit at any moment, in fact nothing can be done for her prior to her crisis point, so, Shale doesn't count, Wynne can count as traitor because she has to get the Circle saved in order to join, but she dies regardless what, and she also is the only party member who saves HoF's life without any condition (except being on the party of course) Loghain gets poetic justice if he's get to live (and you can be sure he also will die because I won't kill my Hawke to save a treacherous ass) and no, if Alistair is not killed in Origins no one will make sure he'll suffer with some poetic justice nor kick his ass regardless Wardens choice, so, he is the only traitor who has chance to escape, and I won't allow it (beside keeping him means that Loghain won't get poetic justice) so I kill him without chance to the honorable death, and he had it coming because he was being explained that Loghain would be an expendable pawn in the hands of the Wardens and that Wardens philosophy consists on giving second chances even for criminals, but Maker forbid someone who wronged him has any place for second chances. And you are biased on Witches of the Wilds (like if you wouldn't be already biased with any mage (you have spent a lot of time on exalting mages' mistakes and diminishing any one else's by saying "that's normal human behaviour") :v...) of course, your bias on these mages is worse because your assessment of them is that "they know the script" (if I recall correctly those were your exact words) :v pretty sure even Flemeth can be surprised and pretty sure she didn't stalked Maric his whole life, letting aside you are trying to whitewash the fact he took a choice that could affect his country.

Because they could make the life easier doesn't mean they are the ones to blame, I do not blame machines for turning current society into a lot of slobs, I blame the people for not knowing how to make proper use of them without becoming too dependant of them.

You didn't read did you? I said that while she wouldn't have reasons to start a war, magic was not actually the mean she used to beginning it, she couldn't begin a war without supporters but she didn't had a good plan nor a proper notion of how to fight a war, magic availed them nothing, they failed and lead someone to the abyss does not require magic, letting aside even more biases here, because if Fiona begins a war because she is a stupid mage she is wrong for being a stupid mage but if Celene and Gaspard decide they are going to f*ck off everyone in the middle of their struggle they are right, because they are not mages and that's the typical human behaviour.

And you are such a fool, you are saying that wiping out a certain group of people will bring order to a "society" that always will find the way to screw it and fall in chaos again, even if there would be a way to suppress humanity's moronic behaviour, their sole ignorance shakes the nature out of balance, that will affect them, and hunger and diseases are not something that would bring order to a society either. and I don't think you would mind to build a logic robot to submit them, the truth is humanity alone will ever lead to chaos, they would require an oppressive babysitter without feelings and yet, that wouldn't be guarantee of success.

The Chantry didn't, Andraste did, and since the Chantry spreads the word of Andraste and manages the lands she conquered, is not illogical ask them something that their mistress promised, but instead of any negotiation, it seems that the Chantry decided to delete from the Chant of Light the parts that bounded Andraste's words to elves, then they tried by the force.

 

Because once again they do? Abomnations (mostly) and realising blight were nothing more than accidental disasters caused by mages that wanted to do something with magic and it turned bad.Well ,if you want tranquil all mages taking "nukes" away from them im all for it.     

 

Yep you are ,i pointed that long time ago and you proved it many times with statements like "alistair hates mages" what wasn't true.So did alistair from what i recall i don't remember him asking anything in return for helping you with blight ,he leaves you like wynne and leliana when you do something immoral and crossed line in their eyes for leliana and wynne it is destroying urn , for alistair it is sparing loghain and "rewarding" him for something he see as an honor not punishment as you claim, that doesn't by any mean make them bad people at worst irresponsible in that matter.LoL so much bias, again you can kill alistair that is an option if you want to punish him for leaving your party and no he isn't only companion that can get away with leaving your party morrigan does that and pretty much every companion that leaves you can be spared by the warden (and sometimes outright can't be killed for that)... so now you argue that every player should be forced to kill alistair because well you dislike him.Im not biased, in first place im merely pointing facts that you love to ingore in your attempts to paint as i said yavana as innocent puppy that alistair would have no reason to kill and as i said 1000 times he had plenty of them ,in first place as you trying to paint me im not biased against mages and as you say try to pin "mage" hater despite i don't hate them only merely acknowledge they are dangerous and base my solution on fact they are dangerous not an emotion.As for comment about flemeth and that she read script it was pretty much pointing that she knew things she shouldn't have know just to make her look as briliant mastermind.Im not whitewashing marric in first place because i don't even agree with what he did i merly point that in first place reason why he was gone were schemes of the witches what is nothing mroe than truth.   

 

They are ,as i said if not mages human would progress and if technology will cause humans to become lazy slobs and they wouldn't be without, thecnology would be a reason why humans are lazy slobs.So yes, if not mages humans would progress and would be able not only compensate but also surpass using of mages with technology in some fields.So important point stays ,mages pretty much tramped technological progress among humans and thus leaving humans with magic as only weapon to counter qunari weapon.   

 

I know you said that but i was obligated to point that again as im obligated to point that fact she was a mage gave her weapon she fought this war. Ok ,lets play a game fiona is normal person and her people too so she is normal person with small number of normal people without any resources and weapon (and once again reason) to wage war how she will start war without any means to fight it ,her only weapon and mean to fight was power that came with magic, fiona had no other resources . LoL nice going for assumptions i didn't said celene or gaspard were right (nor i will say they are wrong) so nice assumption there ,so my point that fiona could wage war because she was mage stays and i have already pointed differences between war between nations and disasters mages cause.

 

Not rly... i live over 2 decades in this world and society i live in pretty much mantains order (as pretty much most of societies) , people in thedas can't say the same because they are continually threatened by mages a single individual that can endager entire nation because something as simple as for an example ill loved one and fact they have tried to use blood magic to cure them and got possessed by a demon. 

 

Andraste gave them land but doesn't mean she allowed them to whatever they plase , while from what i know blame lays both on human and elves side chantry merely reacted with EM on elves attacks.         

[dragonflight288]

I think Xil's as earnest as they come, though. 

 

True, but she does have a tendency to overlook the "why" mages absolutely need training when she really gets into the debates. 

[Andromelek]

Because once again they do? Abomnations (mostly) and realising blight were nothing more than accidental disasters caused by mages that wanted to do something with magic and it turned bad.Well ,if you want tranquil all mages taking "nukes" away from them im all for it.

Yep you are ,i pointed that long time ago and you proved it many times with statements like "alistair hates mages" what wasn't true.So did alistair from what i recall i don't remember him asking anything in return for helping you with blight ,he leaves you like wynne and leliana when you do something immoral and crossed line in their eyes for leliana and wynne it is destroying urn , for alistair it is sparing loghain and "rewarding" him for something he see as an honor not punishment as you claim, that doesn't by any mean make them bad people at worst irresponsible in that matter.LoL so much bias, again you can kill alistair that is an option if you want to punish him for leaving your party and no he isn't only companion that can get away with leaving your party morrigan does that and pretty much every companion that leaves you can be spared by the warden (and sometimes outright can't be killed for that)... so now you argue that every player should be forced to kill alistair because well you dislike him.Im not biased, in first place im merely pointing facts that you love to ingore in your attempts to paint as i said yavana as innocent puppy that alistair would have no reason to kill and as i said 1000 times he had plenty of them ,in first place as you trying to paint me im not biased against mages and as you say try to pin "mage" hater despite i don't hate them only merely acknowledge they are dangerous and base my solution on fact they are dangerous not an emotion.As for comment about flemeth and that she read script it was pretty much pointing that she knew things she shouldn't have know just to make her look as briliant mastermind.Im not whitewashing marric in first place because i don't even agree with what he did i merly point that in first place reason why he was gone were schemes of the witches what is nothing mroe than truth.

They are ,as i said if not mages human would progress and if technology will cause humans to become lazy slobs and they wouldn't be without, thecnology would be a reason why humans are lazy slobs.So yes, if not mages humans would progress and would be able not only compensate but also surpass using of mages with technology in some fields.So important point stays ,mages pretty much tramped technological progress among humans and thus leaving humans with magic as only weapon to counter qunari weapon.

I know you said that but i was obligated to point that again as im obligated to point that fact she was a mage gave her weapon she fought this war. Ok ,lets play a game fiona is normal person and her people too so she is normal person with small number of normal people without any resources and weapon (and once again reason) to wage war how she will start war without any means to fight it ,her only weapon and mean to fight was power that came with magic, fiona had no other resources . LoL nice going for assumptions i didn't said celene or gaspard were right (nor i will say they are wrong) so nice assumption there ,so my point that fiona could wage war because she was mage stays and i have already pointed differences between war between nations and disasters mages cause.

Not rly... i live over 2 decades in this world and society i live in pretty much mantains order (as pretty much most of societies) , people in thedas can't say the same because they are continually threatened by mages a single individual that can endager entire nation because something as simple as for an example ill loved one and fact they have tried to use blood magic to cure them and got possessed by a demon.

Andraste gave them land but doesn't mean she allowed them to whatever they plase , while from what i know blame lays both on human and elves side chantry merely reacted with EM on elves attacks.

If I remember correctly, I have already explained you that I seconded the motion, and then I have to remind you that I took that argument back because you gave logical reasons, however you are not doing that right now. No, Alistair doesn't ask anything in return, he shouldn't and he wouldn't have the right to, he is a Grey Warden and it's his duty stop the Blight, he is the only one bound by duty, and technically just with saving Eamon he is already winning something, if you help to save his whole adoptive family and to develop some respect for himself, he owes you even more as a person, because he still having the duty to stop the Blight, and if standing back before really being a Warden like Jordy did is enough reason to be slain, Alistair for certain commits a bigger flaw there. Morrigan was bound by her mother's word, not for herself, though she still wanted the OG soul for herself, the bond was technically broken when she convinced the Warden to double cross Flemeth (I wonder why she still more concerned and wants to reward the treacherous child). And no, while I admit I'm a little pissed for that his survival ratio and only Alistair rules ratio seemingly led the writers to do many things (like paint Ferelden as a still dump) like if Alistair would still alive, I never meant to change anyone's mind, I posted out (on a thread designed to explain why people hates certain characters) my reasons to hate him, in fact, it's been you the one who jumped on me in a futile attempt to change my mind about Alistair, and I questioned you why should I see a traitor with good eyes if you were saying that a woman deserved to die just for lying and offering things that pretty much were on her reach in order to fulfil a task that was more of the Dragons and her mother's concern. And while he may not hate all mages, he does have a blind hate for Witches of the Wilds, you cannot deny that, literally the first thing he did when he met Yavana was begin to speak crap of her family and treat her like if she already would have treated him on the way that Flemeth and Morrigan supposedly did (and Flemeth didn't treated him bad exactly, while Morrigan grown aggressive on him after he spoke crap of her) And from my viewpoint Maric is as guilty as Flemeth and more guilty than Yavana for leaving Ferelden, but since he is no mage and is Alistair's parent (even when he abandoned him on Eamon's hands to avoid struggles with Cailan and because Fiona asked him so) he is not being blamed for anything.

You said you were concerned of society's health and that mages were dangerous, the point you were using to blame them here was that you think they prevent any advance on technology an that makes humans lazy, now you are admitting that technology would also make them lazy and even more lazy that they were with mages, still you want to execute mages for this reason, if you really are concerned of society's progress, trade the way they can be slobs for another way they can be slobs it's far away from being a healthy thing.

While indeed magic was a weapon (not so good since she was fighting seekers and templars) she really didn't had the means to afford a war, no allies, nor bases, at most, magic delayed her defeat, and her rebellion really was lame for Thedas standards and even for video game standards. Here is the part that I see biased, you won't say Celene and Gaspard are wrong but Fiona is automatically wrong for being a mage, even when mages' reason to began a war was the fear of be slain because of struggles between people like Meredith and Anders while Celene's and Gaspard's reasons were merely keep/obtain power.

I assume you either live on a peaceful country or you are far more optimistic than I, still, unless you don't read news, you may be aware that there been wars in the last two decades, many of them because selfish goals like seize of more areas to exploit resources like oil, we also have been close to the "midnight" at least twice, and while some countries keep order, places like virtually all Africa and down here in countries like Chile, Mexico or Brazil, the things are far away from good, and such countries are being f*cked up by both sides: crime lords (or in some cases even rebel militia) and corrupt and selfish politicians. If you lack of these problems, pretty sure you can see the scar that mankind left on nature, and even you may have noticed that most of food has chemicals to compensate the situation of there are too many humans but not enough food or resources for everyone. So what I said, even in peace and without threats, things tend to bend into chaos.

Actually Andraste offer them lands, but she couldn't keep her word because Maferath betrayed her and she was executed before she could provide such lands, and no, it wasn't random lands, she told them which lands, if I remember correctly, those lands were the Dales.