275 réponses à ce sujet

[MadMadCarl]

With TKS, it was inevitable genocide for security would be brought up.

He's been making that argument for years.

Never mind that without mages, the world would have been destroyed several times over as mages are needed to prepare the joining for grey wardens and were instrumental in pushing back the Qunari.

It's gotten old months ago and I simply don't discuss mages with him anymore.

He's utterly incapable of adapting his approach to mages. He makes good points here and there, but he is set in his beliefs, and any lore on mages that proves him wrong, or at least shows that mages aren't as bad as he says somehow gets disregarded.

Of course, I've seen some pro-mages also ignore evidence on the dangers of magic because "FREEDOM!"

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

So, all we have to do is ignore genocidal comments right?

 

i have no idea of who is xil, i'm almost new here, and i only have seen warder and tks on the anti-mage or pro-templar sides, but, does andro count as pro-mage in the same way that warder and tks?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I can't tell if TKS or these pro-mages I've seen (Xil) genuinely believe their own arguments or if they are trolls.

 

Honestly, I think most folks in this discussion are pretty genuine.

 

It is pretty remarkable how some players find kinship with these fictional groups, as if they actually belong to them. Gotta admit, though, BioWare was pretty clever in their writing here, particularly with their portrayal of these groups. The mages in particular have all the qualities of your average gamer -- meek, bookish nerd types. Templar portrayal OTOH play to the nerds' natural rivals (jocks), along with other qualities that they tend to detest -- staunch religious beliefs, military culture, authority. Or, more broadly, this is people in minority groups identifying with what they see as an oppressed party (this one can extend to the setting's elf/human relations).

 

At times it really feels to me like players are airing out something deep in their subconscious when discussing this topic -- LOL!

[TheKomandorShepard]

If I remember correctly, I have already explained you that I seconded the motion, and then I have to remind you that I took that argument back because you gave logical reasons, however you are not doing that right now. No, Alistair doesn't ask anything in return, he shouldn't and he wouldn't have the right to, he is a Grey Warden and it's his duty stop the Blight, he is the only one bound by duty, and technically just with saving Eamon he is already winning something, if you help to save his whole adoptive family and to develop some respect for himself, he owes you even more as a person, because he still having the duty to stop the Blight, and if standing back before really being a Warden like Jordy did is enough reason to be slain, Alistair for certain commits a bigger flaw there. Morrigan was bound by her mother's word, not for herself, though she still wanted the OG soul for herself, the bond was technically broken when she convinced the Warden to double cross Flemeth (I wonder why she still more concerned and wants to reward the treacherous child). And no, while I admit I'm a little pissed for that his survival ratio and only Alistair rules ratio seemingly led the writers to do many things (like paint Ferelden as a still dump) like if Alistair would still alive, I never meant to change anyone's mind, I posted out (on a thread designed to explain why people hates certain characters) my reasons to hate him, in fact, it's been you the one who jumped on me in a futile attempt to change my mind about Alistair, and I questioned you why should I see a traitor with good eyes if you were saying that a woman deserved to die just for lying and offering things that pretty much were on her reach in order to fulfil a task that was more of the Dragons and her mother's concern. And while he may not hate all mages, he does have a blind hate for Witches of the Wilds, you cannot deny that, literally the first thing he did when he met Yavana was begin to speak crap of her family and treat her like if she already would have treated him on the way that Flemeth and Morrigan supposedly did (and Flemeth didn't treated him bad exactly, while Morrigan grown aggressive on him after he spoke crap of her) And from my viewpoint Maric is as guilty as Flemeth and more guilty than Yavana for leaving Ferelden, but since he is no mage and is Alistair's parent (even when he abandoned him on Eamon's hands to avoid struggles with Cailan and because Fiona asked him so) he is not being blamed for anything).

You said you were concerned of society's health and that mages were dangerous, the point you were using to blame them here was that you think they prevent any advance on technology an that makes humans lazy, now you are admitting that technology would also make them lazy and even more lazy that they were with mages, still you want to execute mages for this reason, if you really are concerned of society's progress, trade the way they can be slobs for another way they can be slobs it's far away from being a healthy thing.

While indeed magic was a weapon (not so good since she was fighting seekers and templars) she really didn't had the means to afford a war, no allies, nor bases, at most, magic delayed her defeat, and her rebellion really was lame for Thedas standards and even for video game standards. Here is the part that I see biased, you won't say Celene and Gaspard are wrong but Fiona is automatically wrong for being a mage, even when mages' reason to began a war was the fear of be slain because of struggles between people like Meredith and Anders while Celene's and Gaspard's reasons were merely keep/obtain power.

I assume you either live on a peaceful country or you are far more optimistic than I, still, unless you don't read news, you may be aware that there been wars in the last two decades, many of them because selfish goals like seize of more areas to exploit resources like oil, we also have been close to the "midnight" at least twice, and while some countries keep order, places like virtually all Africa and down here in countries like Chile, Mexico or Brazil, the things are far away from good, and such countries are being f*cked up by both sides: crime lords (or in some cases even rebel militia) and corrupt and selfish politicians. If you lack of these problems, pretty sure you can see the scar that mankind left on nature, and even you may have noticed that most of food has chemicals to compensate the situation of there are too many humans but not enough food or resources for everyone. So what I said, even in peace and without threats, things tend to bend into chaos.

Actually Andraste offer them lands, but she couldn't keep her word because Maferath betrayed her and she was executed before she could provide such lands, and no, it wasn't random lands, she told them which lands, if I remember correctly, those lands were the Dales.

 

What doesn't change fact you tried push that alistair was mage hater ,and im giving you logical reasons as i did there.But he could, and just because you are grey warden doesn't mean you can't demand reward for something , the warden can do that so alistair could but in the end he didn't ,and just because somone says something is your duty doesn't mean you have to do it ,alistair could simply escape instead he chose to stop blight.Also once again that you helped somone with something doesn't mean person will accept your shenanigans as i pointed with wynne and leliana when you will do something irredeemable in her eyes that you helped them with something in personal quests doesn't mean they will tolerate everything you do.In first place i don't know why you even bring morrigan here.  

Ferelden was always "damp" and blight and architect didn't help it so i don't see problem here that ferelden still recovers from blight , and now mage-templar war and Corypheus thingy.I didn't try change your mind ,but mearly reacted on false accusations toward alistair as he was villain.Also it isn't blind hate, witches did a lot to repulse him and in the end their schemes costed ferelden king and as well his father ,so pretty that was reason she shanked her add to that yavana tried to repeat provess with alistair.I see once again i need to repeat myself it will be fifth time now if not flemeth schemes marric would stay in ferelden so yes it is flemeth and yavana fault because they were schemers that lead to that situation ,being mage once has nothing to do with it being as i said schemer has.

 

Mind blown, i advise you to read what i have said about it.First i didn't accused technology of making humans lazy , only that if humans became lazy because of technology and they wouldn't be without it then yes technology would be responsible for humans being lazy , pretty much same applies to mages that if humans don't advance technologically because of mages and without them they would then yes mages are reason for lack of progress.

 

Also it doesn't matter that she was losing, we were talking about  fiona starting war, if she wasn't a mage once again she wouldn't have anything to start that war because as you said she lacked all those things but had 1 thing that allowed her to lead this war as i said magic.Avoiding that person could agree with gaspard or celene goals and fiona reasons , and you are right in a way she is being "wrong" for me because of her being mage as i said mages represent threat for society and world , when gaspard and celene mearly fought for power and while brought some destruction in the end were not threat for society nor world ,avoiding they pretty much had support of huge amount of people as it is required for normal humans to start war.     

 

Most countries are peaceful or to better say mantain order, of course wars sill exist in world but doesn't change fact most countries mantains order even while there are occasional disruptions like terrorist attacks they are fought with as mages should be.And that some countries have bad is nothing more than painful reality , and no i don't think world is an utopia and i know about corruption but either way many countries mantain order and do a lot to keep it that way ,and thanks to that people can live relatively safely in functional societies.So pretty much people will do everything to survive and that is how world works and mages are in the way.

 

Well andraste then promised them land but as i said doesn't mean she allowed them to do anything they want to my knowledge as i said before EM was called after elves attacked humans.            

[Dabrikishaw]

 

So, all we have to do is ignore genocidal comments right?

 

i have no idea of who is xil, i'm almost new here, and i only have seen warder and tks on the anti-mage or pro-templar sides, but, does andro count as pro-mage in the same way that warder and tks?

 

From what I've seen of Andromelek, I would never compare him to TheKomandorShepard or Master Warder Z in terms of the the Mage-Templar debate. He's just not like them at all, to make a long story short.

 

Xilizhra was a rather infamous poster who was staunchly pro-Mage Freedom and pro-Dalish Elf.  I don't remember her all that well because it's been years since I've paid any attention her posts, but her arguments and positions about mages and Dalish largely came from her own applicability with her lesbianism. As a result debates involving her tended to go either south or nowhere at all.

[Andromelek]

What doesn't change fact you tried push that alistair was mage hater ,and im giving you logical reasons as i did there.But he could, and just because you are grey warden doesn't mean you can't demand reward for something , the warden can do that so alistair could but in the end he didn't ,and just because somone says something is your duty doesn't mean you have to do it ,alistair could simply escape instead he chose to stop blight.Also once again that you helped somone with something doesn't mean person will accept your shenanigans as i pointed with wynne and leliana when you will do something irredeemable in her eyes that you helped them with something in personal quests doesn't mean they will tolerate everything you do.In first place i don't know why you even bring morrigan here.
Ferelden was always "damp" and blight and architect didn't help it so i don't see problem here that ferelden still recovers from blight , and now mage-templar war and Corypheus thingy.I didn't try change your mind ,but mearly reacted on false accusations toward alistair as he was villain.Also it isn't blind hate, witches did a lot to repulse him and in the end their schemes costed ferelden king and as well his father ,so pretty that was reason she shanked her add to that yavana tried to repeat provess with alistair.I see once again i need to repeat myself it will be fifth time now if not flemeth schemes marric would stay in ferelden so yes it is flemeth and yavana fault because they were schemers that lead to that situation ,being mage once has nothing to do with it being as i said schemer has.

Mind blown, i advise you to read what i have said about it.First i didn't accused technology of making humans lazy , only that if humans became lazy because of technology and they wouldn't be without it then yes technology would be responsible for humans being lazy , pretty much same applies to mages that if humans don't advance technologically because of mages and without them they would then yes mages are reason for lack of progress.

Also it doesn't matter that she was losing, we were talking about fiona starting war, if she wasn't a mage once again she wouldn't have anything to start that war because as you said she lacked all those things but had 1 thing that allowed her to lead this war as i said magic.Avoiding that person could agree with gaspard or celene goals and fiona reasons , and you are right in a way she is being "wrong" for me because of her being mage as i said mages represent threat for society and world , when gaspard and celene mearly fought for power and while brought some destruction in the end were not threat for society nor world ,avoiding they pretty much had support of huge amount of people as it is required for normal humans to start war.

Most countries are peaceful or to better say mantain order, of course wars sill exist in world but doesn't change fact most countries mantains order even while there are occasional disruptions like terrorist attacks they are fought with as mages should be.And that some countries have bad is nothing more than painful reality , and no i don't think world is an utopia and i know about corruption but either way many countries mantain order and do a lot to keep it that way ,and thanks to that people can live relatively safely in functional societies.So pretty much people will do everything to survive and that is how world works and mages are in the way.

Well andraste then promised them land but as i said doesn't mean she allowed them to do anything they want to my knowledge as i said before EM was called after elves attacked humans.

No, you are not giving me any logical reason, you are just trying hard to put Alistair on a pedestal of rectitude at the time you try to blame Flemeth and Yavana for everything that went wrong. Yes Wardens can ask something in return if they do something aside their only responsibility, which is kill darkspawn and stop the Blights at any cost, what they can't do is ask something in return for what they already swore they would do, if they do so, they are breaking their word, and it's counted as corruption and betrayal, beside, sparing Loghain is not a subject open to debate for the Wardens like sparing Corypheus or the Architect because Loghain wouldn't suppose any way to make worse the Blights, now are you kidding me or what? I brought Morrigan because you said that even she leaves, but again, Alistair is the only companion bound by word, all the others (except Zevran) are helping willingly or in Morrigan's case expecting something in return, but since they are not bound, they are justified to argue, fight or leave for the means are being taken to stop the Blight. And yes, you tried, indeed you still trying to change my mind, he is not what I would call "hero" either, the only person he willingly saves it's girlfriend Warden and for that you have to kill Loghain first, otherwise it doesn't matter if you heard his complains, supported him or helped him to "lick a lamppost on winter" he quits from the Wardens without caring things you did for him nor things he swore to do. And I have to repeat myself, even Flemeth does not know the script, she had no way to know she would find someone with Calenhad's blood, she just found him and decided to strike a deal with him, pretty sure that deals are not illegal things and they require of both parts agreeing with the terms in order to succeed, something that Maric did, and Yavana had no way to know because she never left Antiva, at most, the schemes would have been finding a Calenhad's descendant and strike a deal with him/her, they never knew it would be a King, nor that his children would be too stupid to run the country.

Yes, but mages are conscious persons and technological machines are unaware stuff, so this is a poor reason to justify someone has to be killed.

Letting aside that in the casualties on the mage rebellion are also count the Templars' victims, the Orlesian Civil war hurt more innocent people and the only goal was power, not survival.

You seem to believe that just with killing certain groups of people you are going to earn that utopy, that is actually far away from being truth, we don't have mages and we don't need them to screw around, and there are many societies and the ones I've mentioned are not maintaining order nor peace.

The Chantry made clear that they didn't have the intention to keep their mistress word, how did the elves had to act? they had to submit and renounce to the lands they were promised?

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, you are not giving me any logical reason, you are just trying hard to put Alistair on a pedestal of rectitude at the time you try to blame Flemeth and Yavana for everything that went wrong. Yes Wardens can ask something in return if they do something aside their only responsibility, which is kill darkspawn and stop the Blights at any cost, what they can't do is ask something in return for what they already swore they would do, if they do so, they are breaking their word, and it's counted as corruption and betrayal, beside, sparing Loghain is not a subject open to debate for the Wardens like sparing Corypheus or the Architect because Loghain wouldn't suppose any way to make worse the Blights, now are you kidding me or what? I brought Morrigan because you said that even her leaves, but again, Alistair is the only companion bound by word, all the others (except Zevran) are helping willingly or in Morrigan's case expecting something in return, but since they are not bound, they are justified to argue, fight or leave for the means are being taken to stop the Blight. And yes, you tried, quite sure you still trying to change my mind, he is not what I would call "hero" either, the only person he willingly saves it's girlfriend Warden and for that you have to kill Loghain first, otherwise it doesn't matter if you heard his complains, supported him or helped him to "lick a lamppost on winter" he quits from the Wardens without caring things you did for him nor things he swore to do. And I have to repeat myself, even Flemeth does not know the script, she had no way to know she would find someone with Calenhad's blood, she just found him and decided to strike a deal with him, pretty sure that deals are not illegal things and they require of both parts agreeing with the terms in order to succeed, something that Maric did, and Yavana had no way to know because she never left Antiva, at most, the schemes would have been finding a Calenhad's descendant and strike a deal with him/her, they never knew it would be a King, nor that his children would be too stupid to run the country.

Yes, but mages are conscious persons and technological machines are unaware stuff, so this is a poor reason to justify someone has to be killed.

Letting aside that in the casualties on the mage rebellion are also count the Templars' victims, the Orlesian Civil war hurt more innocent people and the only goal was power, not survival.

You seem to believe that just with killing certain groups of people you are going to earn that utopy, that is actually far away from being truth, we don't have mages and we don't need them to screw around, and there are many societies and the ones I've mentioned are not maintaining order nor peace.

The Chantry made clear that they didn't have the intention to keep their mistress word, how did the elves had to act? they had to submit and renounce to the lands they were promised?

 

I gave you logical reasons you just ignore them , and once you try to generalize what im saying in first place i didn't say flemeth and yavana are responsible for everything that went wrong in ferleden, i said their schemes were responsible for ferelden losing their king and by that contributing to ferelden bad shape what is nothing more than truth.Not rly, unless you live in ilussion that wardens are white knights ,in first place there was nothing that would stop alistair once again from doing that and he didn't.It is , once again sparing loghain is for alistair immoral and crossing line as again is corrupting ashes for wynne and leliana despite such action could help.In first place all companions are "bound by word" same way alistair because they decided to join your party , once again alistair could leave if he wanted he didn't unless you did something irredeemable in his eyes if you want argue that just because he is grey warden he should follow them blindly in whatever they do then i will have to dissappoint you that wouldn't make alistair hero only anti-hero .Not rly you pretty much said nothing would change your mind so now im as always pointing obvious and you ignore it.   Oh except, when alistair willingly sacrifices his life even if he dislikes you killing archdemon and pretty much opts for more heroic options during quest?And once again i have to repeat myself as you seem to live in illusion that if someone did something for someone that person have to put up with everything that person does otherwise person is villain ,so i guess if i did something for someone and i start doing something immoral in eyes of that person like killing puppies then should say "im fine with you doing that, because you have helped me with something ,nailed it im hero". :lol:I see once again you failed to read something i send to read again what i have wrote in previous post because i already explained what i meant you just failed to comprehend that...And once again yavana knew about it as she was one that went after marric so yes she knew the plan <facepalm> ...  

 

And that has nothing to do with thing we were discussing ,as in first place topic was mages being reason for lack of technological progress among humans what in first place started with argument that "mages helped with qunari" on what i pointed that in first place thedas and humans were in much worse shape to face qunari first of because constant disasters and damage to society they cause and then because lack of technological progress.   

 

From what i know you don't have statistics in first place , and again we discussed fiona starting the war even as i said she started it pretty much having nothing but magic while celene and gaspard once again had an army behind them ,while again wars are disruption for society wars lead mostly for an expansion reasons and total destruction pretty much wasn't a threat and it wasn't in case of gaspard or celene ,while i have already explained what single mage can cause.      

 

You need to read what im saying, i never said it was utopy in fact i have said it wasn't an utopy but just merely stable world and society that mages are threat for if peoples that are nukes existed and could explode at any moment society would need to neutralize them one way or another so they don't explode in the middle of the city ,and i don't know if you are talking about thedas or real life but already said that certain societies prosper porly and there is no order or barly at all. 

 

Considering they did until elves attacked them doubtful , well i can tell you how they shouldn't act if they didn't want chantry declare EM on them ,they shouldn't attack and sack val royeaux.From what i know no one demanded them to gave their lands before they started attack humans.  

[Andromelek]

I gave you logical reasons you just ignore them , and once you try to generalize what im saying in first place i didn't say flemeth and yavana are responsible for everything that went wrong in ferleden, i said their schemes were responsible for ferelden losing their king and by that contributing to ferelden bad shape what is nothing more than truth.Not rly, unless you live in ilussion that wardens are white knights ,in first place there was nothing that would stop alistair once again from doing that and he didn't.It is , once again sparing loghain is for alistair immoral and crossing line as again is corrupting ashes for wynne and leliana despite such action could help.In first place all companions are "bound by word" same way alistair because they decided to join your party , once again alistair could leave if he wanted he didn't unless you did something irredeemable in his eyes if you want argue that just because he is grey warden he should follow them blindly in whatever they do then i will have to dissappoint you that wouldn't make alistair hero only anti-hero .Not rly you pretty much said nothing would change your mind so now im as always pointing obvious and you ignore it. Oh except, when alistair willingly sacrifices his life even if he dislikes you killing archdemon and pretty much opts for more heroic options during quest?And once again i have to repeat myself as you seem to live in illusion that if someone did something for someone that person have to put up with everything that person does otherwise person is villain ,so i guess if i did something for someone and i start doing something immoral in eyes of that person like killing puppies then should say "im fine with you doing that, because you have helped me with something ,nailed it im hero". :lol:I see once again you failed to read something i send to read again what i have wrote in previous post because i already explained what i meant you just failed to comprehend that...And once again yavana knew about it as she was one that went after marric so yes she knew the plan <facepalm> ...

And that has nothing to do with thing we were discussing ,as in first place topic was mages being reason for lack of technological progress among humans what in first place started with argument that "mages helped with qunari" on what i pointed that in first place thedas and humans were in much worse shape to face qunari first of because constant disasters and damage to society they cause and then because lack of technological progress.

From what i know you don't have statistics in first place , and again we discussed fiona starting the war even as i said she started it pretty much having nothing but magic while celene and gaspard once again had an army behind them ,while again wars are disruption for society wars lead mostly for an expansion reasons and total destruction pretty much wasn't a threat and it wasn't in case of gaspard or celene ,while i have already explained what single mage can cause.

You need to read what im saying, i never said it was utopy in fact i have said it wasn't an utopy but just merely stable world and society that mages are threat for if peoples that are nukes existed and could explode at any moment society would need to neutralize them one way or another so they don't explode in the middle of the city ,and i don't know if you are talking about thedas or real life but already said that certain societies prosper porly and there is no order or barly at all.

Considering they did until elves attacked them doubtful , well i can tell you how they shouldn't act if they didn't want chantry declare EM on them ,they shouldn't attack and sack val royeaux.From what i know no one demanded them to gave their lands before they started attack humans.

Again, that's assuming that Maric presence would suppose any change, Maric is not the tactical genius, Loghain is, but Loghain is a paranoic nationalist and the records of how Tevinter and Orlais took advantage of Nevarra and the Free Marches to invade them just after the end of the third Blight do not help at all, putting that on your viewpoint, Loghain would have the same jerk reaction on Maric asking Orlesian reinforcements that Alistair had on the Warden for sparing Loghain, something irremediable that automatically dumps any favour or friendship involved. And two, she may be was aware that some day Flemeth would send her a descendant of Calenhad, but she had no way to know the means Flemeth would take, nor that the descendant would be a King and his children incompetent, and for certain no one of the three ever wanted to harm Ferelden, but if something happened, Maric was as responsible as the witches because he willingly agreed to be part of their schemes, yet you insist otherwise. I didn't say I don't understand why he quits, but under the circumstances I have to ask if he ever cared a crap of the Blight or if all he wanted was his retaliation, given that I actually had a friendship with him when he had such jerk reaction I took it as betrayal. Not the same way, it was not their responsibility stop the Blight, and now if with follow the Wardens blindly you mean Ginieve or Clarel, there is a huge difference between what they did and sparing a traitor for the moment, Riordan was trying to explain that they were out of numbers and he wasn't allowed to explain why they needed more numbers.Actually he has to be commanded to give the final blow to Archdemon, even if friend, the only way he doesn't question who has to give the final blow it's if he was romanced, and to throw him against Archdemon you have to refuse the suicidal pawn and the dark ritual, the first being pretty much for his tantrum, so, no I don't count that as willingly either. Speaking of logical arguments if you ever give one, you shouldn't be so pissed or persistent, it seems that the people of the forum says that you often disregard whatever can prove you wrong, to synthesize this matter you basically told me that Alistair didn't deserve to die for letting Ferelden at its luck for a tantrum, but that Yavana deserved to die for being implied with other two persons in a scheme that led one of those persons to leave his country without even being on crisis by the moment he left, and before you begin to speak of Dragons I remind you it wasn't an army of them, it was just one Dragon bigger than the others and since the awake Great Dragon is not messing with anyone just another is not a threat. No, I don't live in the illusion that if someone does something for me it's automatically my friend, but I do keep those actions in mind if once such subject requires my help or if I have to stop it from doing something wrong, on your example (assuming we are not under our current laws) a if I find a dude who I never met and never did anything for me doing such thing would likely get a shot on the face in the best case, if the dude happened to save me once or did a big favour to me I would try stop him with words first and with a shot on the knee if I'm disregarded.

And after that you said you would kill the mages but you said that killing the Tevinters wouldn't be possible, and I said that's flawed because the south is not so dependant from magic and the southern mages didn't do something as bad as the Magisters.

Yes, but again the point was that you don't see too wrong the wars began by normal persons compared to the war a mage began, you even said that you see Fiona's worse because she is a mage and mages are dangerous while my original point with the mage rebellion was that normal persons also begin wars and that often are meaningless or affect more people than mages, no we don't have statics, but we saw more areas and war table missions being affected for the Orlesian Civil War than for the Mage Rebellion

I do read, but even without mages the world wouldn't be stabilized, and no, it's not necessary "neutralize them" putting them away from society would be enough,

I had a struggle with your grammar here but fine, let's forget the exalted march.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, that's assuming that Maric presence would suppose any change, Maric is not the tactical genius, Loghain is, but Loghain is a paranoic nationalist and the records of how Tevinter and Orlais took advantage of Nevarra and the Free Marches to invade them just after the end of the third Blight do not help at all, putting that on your viewpoint, Loghain would have the same jerk reaction on Maric asking Orlesian reinforcements that Alistair had on the Warden for sparing Loghain, something irremediable that automatically dumps any favour or friendship involved. And two, she may be was aware that some day Flemeth would send her a descendant of Calenhad, but she had no way to know the means Flemeth would take, nor that the descendant would be a King and his children incompetent, and for certain no one of the three ever wanted to harm Ferelden, but if something happened, Maric was as responsible as the witches because he willingly agreed to be part of their schemes, yet you insist otherwise. I didn't say I don't understand why he quits, but under the circumstances I have to ask if he ever cared a crap of the Blight or if all he wanted was his retaliation, given that I actually I didn't say I don't understand why he quits, but under the circumstances I have to ask if he ever cared a crap of the Blight or if all he wanted was his retaliation, given that I actually had a friendship with him when he had such jerk reaction I took it as betrayal. Not the same way, it was not their responsibility stop the Blight, and now if with follow the Wardens blindly you mean Ginieve or Clarel, there is a huge difference between what they did and sparing a traitor for the moment, Riordan was trying to explain that they were out of numbers and he wasn't allowed to explain why they needed mor numbers.Actually he has to be commanded to give the final blow to Archdemon, even if friend, the only way he doesn't question who has to give the final blow it's if he was romanced, and to throw him against Archdemon you have to refuse the suicidal pawn and the dark ritual, the first being pretty much for his tantrum, so, no I don't count that as willingly either. Speaking of logical arguments if you ever give one, you shouldn't be so pissed or persistent, it seems that the people of the forum says that you often disregard whatever can prove you wrong, to synthesize this matter you basically told me that Alistair didn't deserve to die for letting Ferelden at its luck but that Yavana deserved to die for being implied with other two persons in a scheme that led one of those persons to leave his country without even being on crisis by the moment he left, and before you begin to speak of Dragons I remind you it wasn't an army of them, it was just one Dragon bigger than the others and since the awake Great Dragon is not messing with anyone just another is not a threat. No, I don't live in the illusion that if someone does something for me it's automatically my friend, but I do keep those actions in mind if once such subject requires my help or if I have to stop it from doing something wrong, on your example (assuming we are not under our current laws) a if I find a dude who I never met and never did anything for me doing such thing would likely get a shot on the face in the best case, if the dude happened to save me once or did a big favour to me I would try stop him with words first and with a shot on the knee if I'm disregarded.

And after that you said you would kill the mages but you said that killing the Tevinters wouldn't be possible, and I said that's flawed because the south is not so dependant from magic and the southern mages didn't do something as bad as the Magisters.

Yes, but again the point was that you don't see too wrong the wars began by normal persons compared to the war a mage began, you even said that you see Fiona's worse because she is a mage and mages are dangerous while my original point with the mage rebellion was that normal persons also begin wars and that often are meaningless or affect more people than mages, no we don't have statics, but we saw more areas and war table missions being affected for the Orlesian Civil War than for the Mage Rebellion

I do read, but even without mages the world wouldn't be stabilized, and no, it's not necessary "neutralize them" putting them away from society would be enough,

I had a struggle with your grammar here but fine, let's forget the exalted march.

 

And he doesn't need to be tactical genius only great king ,avoiding that once again he was loghain best friend and as loghain puts it he would lead a charge if marric decided to conquer the fade so unlike cailan loghain held marric in very high regard.Once again she not only knew about flemeth plans ,about marric and pretty much story on that but also was helping flemeth with it so no she isn't innocent puppy that knew nothing about flemeth doings , she knew what flemeth was doing and was helping her , avoiding that pretty much she tries same shemes like mother with alistair just before he shanks her ,marric should have done the same sadly he didn't.Morrigan probably didn't want to hurt ferelden and in first place didn't even participated in this but flemeth knew what she was doing by sending king away and pretty much so did yavana , they just didn't care.And once again for 6th time it is irrelevant because if not flemeth and yavana schemes ferelden would have king so yes they were responsible for maric disappearance.Considering he is ready as i said to die in order to stop blight he did cared for grey wardens and stopping blight ,and yes it was willingly he even says he will do it when the warden will tell riordan s/he won't plus pretty much if you take him with you to archdemon he argues he should be one who gives his life ,so yes as you would love to say it wasn't willingly it was and that he can leave because in his eyes you corssed line won't change it. Also same thing did alistair save for shooting the in the knee what would be bad idea as he wouldn't able to stop act he saw as immoral, and he simply washes his hands from this.               

 

And i didn't said i would kill mages because they tramp technological progress only that their lack would change this on as i said argument on statement mages shouldn't have killed because they were important during qunari wars.In first place reason my reason for kill mages was that they eaisly pose individual threat on huge scale.And that they didn't do anything bad is doesn't matter because it isn't about if they did something bad or not only that they can easily as i said cause huge disaster that could end even with end of humankind just because person was a mage.

 

I already explained differences between war that fiona fought and war that gaspard and celene fought in my previous post.

 

It would be stabilized ,perhaps not entire world as i said there would be occasional disruptions in order but many countries would remain stable and world would be save from doom.And nope it wouldn't save considering in that case threat(for an in-universe example darkspawn/taint) would spread,  

 

If you say so.  

[Andromelek]

And he doesn't need to be tactical genius only great king ,avoiding that once again he was loghain best friend and as loghain puts it he would lead a charge if marric decided to conquer the fade so unlike cailan loghain held marric in very high regard.Once again she not only knew about flemeth plans ,about marric and pretty much story on that but also was helping flemeth with it so no she isn't innocent puppy that knew nothing about flemeth doings , she knew what flemeth was doing and was helping her , avoiding that pretty much she tries same shemes like mother with alistair just before he shanks her ,marric should have done the same sadly he didn't.Morrigan probably didn't want to hurt ferelden and in first place didn't even participated in this but flemeth knew what she was doing by sending king away and pretty much so did yavana , they just didn't care.And once again for 6th time it is irrelevant because if not flemeth and yavana schemes ferelden would have king so yes they were responsible for maric disappearance.Considering he is ready as i said to die in order to stop blight he did cared for grey wardens and stopping blight ,and yes it was willingly he even says he will do it when the warden will tell riordan s/he won't plus pretty much if you take him with you to archdemon he argues he should be one who gives his life ,so yes as you would love to say it wasn't willingly it was and that he can leave because in his eyes you corssed line won't change it. Also same thing did alistair save for shooting the in the knee what would be bad idea as he wouldn't able to stop act he saw as immoral, and he simply washes his hands from this.

And i didn't said i would kill mages because they tramp technological progress only that their lack would change this on as i said argument on statement mages shouldn't have killed because they were important during qunari wars.In first place reason my reason for kill mages was that they eaisly pose individual threat on huge scale.And that they didn't do anything bad is doesn't matter because it isn't about if they did something bad or not only that they can easily as i said cause huge disaster that could end even with end of humankind just because person was a mage.

I already explained differences between war that fiona fought and war that gaspard and celene fought in my previous post.

It would be stabilized ,perhaps not entire world as i said there would be occasional disruptions in order but many countries would remain stable and world would be save from doom.And nope it wouldn't save considering in that case threat(for an in-universe example darkspawn/taint) would spread,

If you say so.

Again, you are acting as a deluded, and you are disregarding everything I say, demons are not Loghain's breakpoint, Orlesians are, not even his daughter was safe from such paranoic behavior and why the hell you put Morrigan here now? When I said three people I meant Flemeth and Maric and possibly Yavana, and Maric was agree with their terms and for certain he didn't cared a crap for awakening a giant dragon, the only thing that prevented him from awakening the second one was being kidnaped by certain sucker who wanted to brainwash the world, not to mention that Flemeth's goal is clean up the mess Mythal and buddies left behind. Why you persist so much? , you aren't really giving me any reason to believe that betraying is something better than lying with your sandstorm, all that Alistair wanted was avenge a man that even he admits was already doomed, pretty sure that he wouldn't have such discussion if he would have taken the command since the beginning, but the lad doesn't like responsibilities nor he answers for any of the choices he took, and oddly enough if he is allowed to live he ends drunk and blaming Morrigan for what went wrong, even when Warden and Riordan were the ones that suggested to spare Loghain, tell me how that's not blind hate? And if I recall correctly, he stated that killing himself against Archdemon was an easy way to flee from being King or in charge of the Fereldan Grey Wardens, not really because he cared for a foe Warden, and of course, to reach this point he already had taken his vengeance that seemingly was the only reason of why he remained in the group. As you say he washes his hands, rather than face the things he allowed to happen, proof enough is the part of drowning himself on alcohol.

Not exactly, for certain you added that to your list of why mages have to be killed, and you are justifying people that genuinely does bad things over any mage just because normal morons have to do a great effort to screw on the level that a mage accidentally does, this case, I have to insist, is insignificant and it's rather for their sole presence not because they want to prevent progress.

Yes, I know that you are pretty good repeating the same point over and over again and disregarding anything that proves you wrong, but ultimately what matters to me are the reasons, means always come to a second plane because there is always a way to achieve something, mages at most were born with an additional mean, but that's not guarantee that they will do a mess, not even accidentally.

That would only make things as stable as they were on the middle age, not exactly the most peaceful or balanced age, and for the record, Thedas is just one continent not the entire world, beside killing mages would not disappear the magic just like that, while you can argue that mages are extinguishing their own fire with the Blight, actually it seems that the Veil that keeps spirits away was not always there and probably was placed by elven mages, without that the spirits would roam around free and likely would be constantly turning into demons.

Pretty sure you will still arguing about anything I say, ultimately what you seemingly are looking for is have the last word, like if that would grant you any kind of victory.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, you are acting as a deluded, and you are disregarding everything I say, demons are not Loghain's breakpoint, Orlesians are, not even his daughter was safe from such paranoic behavior and why the hell you put Morrigan here now? When I said three people I meant Flemeth and Maric and possibly Yavana, and Maric was agree with their terms and for certain he didn't cared a crap for awakening a giant dragon, the only thing that prevented him from awakening the second one was being kidnaped by certain sucker who wanted to brainwash the world, not to mention that Flemeth's goal is clean up the mess Mythal and buddies left behind. Why you persist so much? , you aren't really giving me any reason to believe that betraying is something better than lying with your sandstorm, all that Alistair wanted was avenge a man that even he admits was already doomed, pretty sure that he wouldn't have such discussion if he would have taken the command since the beginning, but the lad doesn't like responsibilities nor he answers for any of the choices he took, and oddly enough if he is allowed to live he ends drunk and blaming Morrigan for what went wrong, even when Warden and Riordan were the ones that suggested to spare Loghain, tell me how that's not blind hate? And if I recall correctly, he stated that killing himself against Archdemon was an easy way to flee from being King or in charge of the Fereldan Grey Wardens, not really because he cared for a foe Warden, and of course, to reach this point he already had taken his vengeance that seemingly was the only reason of why he remained in the group. As you say he washes his hands, rather than face the things he allowed to happen, proof enough is the part of drowning himself on alcohol.

Not exactly, for certain you added that to your list of why mages have to be killed, and you are justifying people that genuinely does bad things over any mage just because normal morons have to do a great effort to screw on the level that a mage accidentally does, this case, I have to insist, is insignificant and it's rather for their sole presence not because they want to prevent progress.

Yes, I know that you are pretty good repeating the same point over and over again and disregarding anything that proves you wrong, but ultimately what matters to me are the reasons, means always come to a second plane because there is always a way to achieve something, mages at most were born with an additional mean, but that's not guarantee that they will do a mess, not even accidentally.

That would only make things as stable as they were on the middle age, not exactly the most peaceful or balanced age, and for the record, Thedas is just one continent not the entire world, beside killing mages would not disappear the magic just like that, while you can argue that mages are extinguishing their own fire with the Blight, actually it seems that the Veil that keeps spirits away was not always there and probably was placed by elven mages, without that the spirits would roam around free and likely would be constantly turning into demons.

Pretty sure you will still arguing about anything I say, ultimately what you seemingly are looking for is have the last word, like if that would grant you any kind of victory.

 

Now you don't know what you are saying and you just saying them , in first place what demons i never said anything about demons and you wonder why im disregarding everything you say.And he didn't harm his daughter even after howe advised to off her he refused and she was safe from his behavior .You answered on your own question?

And once again despite marric wouldn't have leave ferelden if not witches shemes like it or not try pin it on other people but yes in the end as alistair said if not witches and their schemes ferelden would have much more competent king than it had, that she tried awaken dragons is just more reason for alistair to shank her ,because ingore simple fact if not their schemes Maric would stay in ferelden. In first place he wanted justice for what loghain did in Ostagar to your information ,duncan wasn't only grey warden there and grey wardens weren't only one there and still doesn't change loghain left that guy to death ,and what his reluctance to being leader has to do with it.   It is drunk alistair who much jumps on hawke for nothing and to just point he badmouths grey wardens from what i recall as well ,problem for you that he does that regardless if he is a king or not , so no being a king wasn't reason why he did it but just an extra argument that uses that it should be him ,and yes all he wanted is vengance never cared about grey wardens so that is why he decides to to sacrifice his live .Once again he didn't want to allow it to happen but couldn't do anything about it that why he leaves and pretty much was reason he became drunk .     

 

Oh yeah so now you know what i did or not , i pretty much have explained on what argument i pointed that mages that prevented technological progress and it were their involved in qunari wars...    In first place normal people don't have nowhere near capabilities to cause damage that mage can at their worst cause simply because of accident ,mages are walking bombs as devs said and unstable ones and they will bring constant destruction to society as they already do despite of being imprisoned.And yes it is revelant to argument that mages were important in qunari wars and i didn't said they did it deliberately only they are reason for that.

 

You didn't prove me wrong in anything and if somone repeats same things over and over or jumps from one thing to another it would be you , i already as i said explained differences between fiona war and orlesian civil war , so now you stomp with your feet and scream that i hate mages because i didn't support fiona war...    And once again you keep ignoring pretty something i have said 1000 times in this topic to you i never said that every mage will "explode" but enough of them will do and results can doom entire mankind and in any way fate of the nations and world shouldn't relay on 1 random individual that did something accidentally , plain an simple .

 

Peacful enough to mantain order and keep world save ,also i don't know why you are saying me this as it is obvious but mages threaten not only thedas.No it wouldn't, once again we had argument about thing "magic" (supernatural abilities) would still exist with reavers and templars but they would be nowhere near as destructive as mages.Also yes apparently veil was not always there but now it is ,and we don't know in first place who did it as it had to be long time ago and in first place we don't know anything about times when veil didn't exist.       

 

I wasn't looking for last world , you just cut off discusion about something so i didn't had anything to argue about in first place.  

[Andromelek]

Now you don't know what you are saying and you just saying them , in first place what demons i never said anything about demons and you wonder why im disregarding everything you say.And he didn't harm his daughter even after howe advised to off her he refused and she was safe from his behavior .You answered on your own question?
And once again despite marric wouldn't have leave ferelden if not witches shemes like it or not try pin it on other people but yes in the end as alistair said if not witches and their schemes ferelden would have much more competent king than it had, that she tried awaken dragons is just more reason for alistair to shank her ,because ingore simple fact if not their schemes Maric would stay in ferelden. In first place he wanted justice for what loghain did in Ostagar to your information ,duncan wasn't only grey warden there and grey wardens weren't only one there and still doesn't change loghain left that guy to death ,and what his reluctance to being leader has to do with it. It is drunk alistair who much jumps on hawke for nothing and to just point he badmouths grey wardens from what i recall as well ,problem for you that he does that regardless if he is a king or not , so no being a king wasn't reason why he did it but just an extra argument that uses that it should be him ,and yes all he wanted is vengance never cared about grey wardens so that is why he decides to to sacrifice his live .Once again he didn't want to allow it to happen but couldn't do anything about it that why he leaves and pretty much was reason he became drunk .

Oh yeah so now you know what i did or not , i pretty much have explained on what argument i pointed that mages that prevented technological progress and it were their involved in qunari wars... In first place normal people don't have nowhere near capabilities to cause damage that mage can at their worst cause simply because of accident ,mages are walking bombs as devs said and unstable ones and they will bring constant destruction to society as they already do despite of being imprisoned.And yes it is revelant to argument that mages were important in qunari wars and i didn't said they did it deliberately only they are reason for that.

You didn't prove me wrong in anything and if somone repeats same things over and over or jumps from one thing to another it would be you , i already as i said explained differences between fiona war and orlesian civil war , so now you stomp with your feet and scream that i hate mages because i didn't support fiona war... And once again you keep ignoring pretty something i have said 1000 times in this topic to you i never said that every mage will "explode" but enough of them will do and results can doom entire mankind and in any way fate of the nations and world shouldn't relay on 1 random individual that did something accidentally , plain an simple .

Peacful enough to mantain order and keep world save ,also i don't know why you are saying me this as it is obvious but mages threaten not only thedas.No it wouldn't, once again we had argument about thing "magic" (supernatural abilities) would still exist with reavers and templars but they would be nowhere near as destructive as mages.Also yes apparently veil was not always there but now it is ,and we don't know in first place who did it as it had to be long time ago and in first place we don't know anything about times when veil didn't exist.

I wasn't looking for last world , you just cut off discusion about something so i didn't had anything to argue about in first place.

You said it, you say that Loghain was able to lead an onslaught against the Fade, but as I pointed out, such place it's full of demons not of Orlesians and he would fight them, not take them as allies, and pretty sure Anora wasn't safe, he may not tried to harm her himself, but he left her with Howe, and she points out that Loghain knew the kind of treacherous snake Howe was, even that he knew what he did to the Couslands, if I recall correctly Howe even stated that "he would kill that b*tch". Again, and I have already lost the count, such schemes were get the aid of a descendant of Calenhad, they had no idea if they would find a king or a commoner, Maric agreed to Flemeth's terms to ensure his victory, without witches' schemes, Ferelden likely would not exist in the worst case or would not be ruled by Maric in the best, so Witches granted the things Alistair said they destroyed in the first place. I know there were more Wardens, but Duncan seems to be the only one who mattered to him, and it has to do because he never takes any responsibility for his actions, pretty sure he saw Warden as an immoral sonofabitch, but he never saw that he was the one that granted him command in the first place, also with Connor, he didn't mind about the Circle, and if Warden doesn't either, he jumps on him/her for following his suggestion, and as I remember he even says that Warden should have saved Connor through Isolde because she began everything, but on Redcliff he said (s)he should kill Connor. And what changes he is drunk, for what I know, drunks are awful liars, and while some things they say are senseless, many reflect the things they feel for real, that and that he still speaking only crap of Witches of the Wilds, and blames them for things they never did, on the comics he blames Flemeth for his status as king, when pretty sure was Eamon the one who used his lineage to overthrow Loghain and Anora on the landsmeet, he has blind hate against them, you cannot deny that, beside that doesn't change the fact you haven't give me reason to see a traitor better than a liar. The argument you are using has little to no sense, he has to have his vengeance in order to do such thing, if he doesn't, he doesn't make any effort to stop the Blight.

Yes, but normal people not having power doesn't mean they won't try and that many will succeed, aside that is enough with physical weapons to threat the physical world, and you still speaking of kill mages when there are two ways to make them harmless, tranquility, though that left them as living potatoes, or the control-rod like device the Qunari have for their Saarebas, they have shown they don't lack of emotions and pretty sure the bindings and scars they have have nothing to do with the function of the device, those were either done for cruelty or to difference them.

They would still fighting for pointless reasons and no, you can assure me they threaten the world because we have only seen Thedas, while they can have an accident, mages have not done a disaster too big accidentally, the Breach and the Blight required rituals; the first only threatened the south and its real threat was allow spirits to cross, who in most of cases turned into demons because of the moronic thoughts of the people, the second one has affected most of Thedas but the real thing that makes Darkspawn successful are the Broodmothers, and Legion of the Death, Rock Wraiths and Sha-Brytol have been successful on kicking darkspawn out of their territory. We know that Titans and Dragons existed before the Veil, they have some intelligence though primitive, so their behaviour likely can't corrupt spirits, so they would have no reason to put a barrier, then we have elves, who can have a more moronic behaviour than the others, and it seems that Solas lived on a time where spirits still were not separated, after that, there is some kind of parallelism between the Veil and Fen'Harel sealing away the other Gods, I assume we'll have some concrete answers in a few days.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You said it, you say that Loghain was able to lead an onslaught against the Fade, but as I pointed out, such place it's full of demons not of Orlesians and he would fight them, not take them as allies, and pretty sure Anora wasn't safe, he may not tried to harm her himself, but he left her with Howe, and she points out that Loghain knew the kind of treacherous snake Howe was, even that he knew what he did to the Couslands, if I recall correctly Howe even stated that "he would kill that b*tch". Again, and I have already lost the count, such schemes were get the aid of a descendant of Calenhad, they had no idea if they would find a king or a commoner, Maric agreed to Flemeth's terms to ensure his victory, without witches' schemes, Ferelden likely would not exist in the worst case or would not be ruled by Maric in the best, so Witches granted the things Alistair said they destroyed in the first place. I know there were more Wardens, but Duncan seems to be the only one who mattered to him, and it has to do because he never takes any responsibility for his actions, pretty sure he saw Warden as an immoral sonofabitch, but he never saw that he was the one that granted him command in the first place, also with Connor, he didn't mind about the Circle, and if Warden doesn't either, he jumps on him for following his suggestion, and as I remember he even says that Warden should have saved Connor through Isolde because she began everything, but on Redcliff he said he should kill Connor. And what changes he is drunk, for what I know, drunks are awful liars, and while some things they say are senseless, many reflect the things they feel for real, that and that he still speaking only crap of Witches of the Wilds, and blames them for things they never did, on the comics he blames Flemeth for his status as king, when pretty sure was Eamon the one who used his lineage to overthrow Loghain and Anora on the landsmeet, he has blind hate against them, you cannot deny that, beside that doesn't change the fact you haven't give me reason to see a traitor better than a liar. The argument you are using has little to no sense, he has to have his vengeance in order to do such thing, if he doesn't, he doesn't make any effort to stop the Blight.

Yes, but normal people not having power doesn't mean they won't try and that many will succeed, aside that is enough with physical weapons to threat the physical world, and you still speaking of kill mages when there are two ways to make them harmless, tranquility, though that left them as living potatoes, or the control-rod like device the Qunari have for their Saarebas, they have shown they don't lack of emotions and pretty sure the bindings and scars they have have nothing to do with the function of the device, those were either done for cruelty or to difference them.

They would still fighting for pointless reasons and no, you can assure me they threaten the world because we have only seen Thedas, while they can have an accident, mages have done a disaster too big accidentally, the Breach and the Blight required rituals; the first only threatened the south and its real threat was allow spirits to cross, who in most of cases turned into demons because of the moronic thoughts of the people, the second one has affected most of Thedas but the real thing that makes Darkspawn successful are the Broodmothers, and Legion of the Death, Rock Wraiths and Sha-Brytol have been successful on kicking darkspawn out of their territory. We know that Titans and Dragons existed before the Veil, they have some intelligence though primitive, so their behaviour likely can't corrupt spirits, so they would have no reason to put a barrier, then we have elves, who can have a more moronic behaviour than the others, and it seems that Solas lived on a time where spirits still were not separated, after that, there is some kind of parallelism between the Veil and Fen'Harel sealing away the other Gods, I assume we'll have some concrete answers in a few days.

 

Eee loghain said it to point his loyalty and commitment to maric ,in first place he didn't saw maric like a fool that doesn't know what he was doing like he saw cailan so obviously it would more or less affect his decision making avoiding that maric would be way much smarter when it comes battle of the Ostagar.Also anora was safe from loghain as i said he refused to kill her even if that would be benefit for him ,anora was in danger because of howe captured her when she went to howe demanding answers ,but pretty anora lived only because of loghain as howe would pretty much killed her ,and once again it doesn't not matter because their schemes costed ferelden a king and she did help marric once again in order to get what she wanted (again scheme) doesn't change that her scheme lead to Marric leaving ferelden and left ferelden with foolish king avoiding fourtune loghain spend on searching marric.Eee... it changes it that he is bitter about everyone ,lost faith in wardens and pretty lost meaning of life along with it ,lol better check up what future leliana says and what leliana in present.Also not rly duncan mattered him to him most because he was most connected to him but he was fond of another wardens from what he spoke about them and uses them as argument against loghain ,saying he didn't care about others is like saying leliana/cassandra didn't care about people that died in conclave because they cared for divine most.He blames flemeth because once again her schemes costed ferelden marric and if marric was in ferelden still he wouldn't have to be king ,of course eamon and the warden were guilty as well and from what i know he is angry and blames it on the warden as well if s/he decides make him king ,so no he doesn't have blind hate for them (unless we are talking about drunk alistair that throws dumb accusations toward morrigan) when alistair dislikes/hates morrigan in dao it wasn't blind because in first place morrigan pretty much was b*** to him and pretty much everyone else avoiding that she was rather cruel and he compassionate so he had reason to dislike her ,then flemeth and morrigan tried to use him or the warden , then pretty much alistair learns more of their schemes and yavana tries once again pull same thing with alistair.And then we have that in dai if the warden had child with morrigan and died killing archdemon he comforts morrigan as with mages it doesn't strike me as somone who blindly hated another person would do that.I gave you ignored them so many times because of your blind hate toward alistair , in first place i already explained 1000 times his "treachery" consisted of leaving people who did something immoral in his eyes.Your logic is astounding he gave his life killing archdemon because of vengeance he already have got. Loghain had nothing to do with his willingness sacrifice his life by killing archdemon ,sparing loghain causes him to leave you because once again you do something immoral in his eyes ,once again it would be saying that leliana and wynne didn't care about blight just because they left you after you did something irredeemable in their eyes i have explained that 1000 times to you and you still fail to comprehend that because of your bias.

 

Normal people will try what , as i said they don't have capability to do nowhere near damage that mages even if i tried deliberately to do what mages can do i wouldn't be able to , at worst i would be able buy gun on the blackmarket and go on rampage and still i doubt i would exceed 100 victims and this even wouldn't be accident because i would have to do it deliberately.Also as i said you want to go for arlic solution im fine with works as well for me , as for qunari methods nah while much more effective than circle in term of control mages would still pose risk.   

 

And? Doesn't change fact society stays stable ,doesn't matter non-mages aren't threat to thedas nor the world unlike mages.Pretty much everything you said here only supports my stance ,that fact mage can blow up world accidentally doesn't diminish threat mage pose to the world in fact increases it significantly.LoL breach didn't threatened only south but entire thedas hell world so do darkspawn ,that as far people managed to fix mages crap don't changes it were threats on world scale ,hell you talk about legion regaining few thaigs as darkspawn as it was prove that darkspawn are small threat when almost entire dwarven empire was destroyed by darkspawn ,avoiding pretty much astronomical damage it caused among humans.

Also, we don't know who created the veil and even if it were elves doesn't mean it were mages because it is doubtful considering that mages can't even fix veil nor we knew how world worked before creation of the veil or even if demons and spirits existed before. 

 

 

         

 

 

 

[Boost32]

The wall of text is strong in thread.
You both should m just move on.

[Andromelek]

Eee loghain said it to point his loyalty and commitment to maric ,in first place he didn't saw maric like a fool that doesn't know what he was doing like he saw cailan so obviously it would more or less affect his decision making avoiding that maric would be way much smarter when it comes battle of the Ostagar.Also anora was safe from loghain as i said he refused to kill her even if that would be benefit for him ,anora was in danger because of howe captured her when she went to howe demanding answers ,but pretty anora lived only because of loghain as howe would pretty much killed her ,and once again it doesn't not matter because their schemes costed ferelden a king and she did help marric once again in order to get what she wanted (again scheme) doesn't change that her scheme lead to Marric leaving ferelden and left ferelden with foolish king avoiding fourtune loghain spend on searching marric.Eee... it changes it that he is bitter about everyone ,lost faith in wardens and pretty lost meaning of life along with it ,lol better check up what future leliana says and what leliana in present.Also not rly duncan mattered him to him most because he was most connected to him but he was fond of another wardens from what he spoke about them and uses them as argument against loghain ,saying he didn't care about others is like saying leliana/cassandra didn't care about people that died in conclave because they cared for divine most.He blames flemeth because once again her schemes costed ferelden marric and if marric was in ferelden still he wouldn't have to be king ,of course eamon and the warden were guilty as well and from what i know he is angry and blames it on the warden as well if s/he decides make him king ,so no he doesn't have blind hate for them (unless we are talking about drunk alistair that throws dumb accusations toward morrigan) when alistair dislikes/hates morrigan in dao it wasn't blind because in first place morrigan pretty much was b*** to him and pretty much everyone else avoiding that she was rather cruel and he compassionate so he had reason to dislike her ,then flemeth and morrigan tried to use him or the warden , then pretty much alistair learns more of their schemes and yavana tries once again pull same thing with alistair.And then we have that in dai if the warden had child with morrigan and died killing archdemon he comforts morrigan as with mages it doesn't strike me as somone who blindly hated another person would do that.I gave you ignored them so many times because of your blind hate toward alistair , in first place i already explained 1000 times his "treachery" consisted of leaving people who did something immoral in his eyes.Your logic is astounding he gave his life killing archdemon because of vengeance he already have got. Loghain had nothing to do with his willingness sacrifice his life by killing archdemon ,sparing loghain causes him to leave you because once again you do something immoral in his eyes ,once again it would be saying that leliana and wynne didn't care about blight just because they left you after you did something irredeemable in their eyes i have explained that 1000 times to you and you still fail to comprehend that because of your bias.
 
Normal people will try what , as i said they don't have capability to do nowhere near damage that mages even if i tried deliberately to do what mages can do i wouldn't be able to , at worst i would be able buy gun on the blackmarket and go on rampage and still i doubt i would exceed 100 victims and this even wouldn't be accident because i would have to do it deliberately.Also as i said you want to go for arlic solution im fine with works as well for me , as for qunari methods nah while much more effective than circle in term of control mages would still pose risk.   
 
And? Doesn't change fact society stays stable ,doesn't matter non-mages aren't threat to thedas nor the world unlike mages.Pretty much everything you said here only supports my stance ,that fact mage can blow up world accidentally doesn't diminish threat mage pose to the world in fact increases it significantly.LoL breach didn't threatened only south but entire thedas hell world so do darkspawn ,that as far people managed to fix mages crap don't changes it were threats on world scale ,hell you talk about legion regaining few thaigs as darkspawn as it was prove that darkspawn are small threat when almost entire dwarven empire was destroyed by darkspawn ,avoiding pretty much astronomical damage it caused among humans.
Also, we don't know who created the veil and even if it were elves doesn't mean it were mages because it is doubtful considering that mages can't even fix veil nor we knew how world worked before creation of the veil or even if demons and spirits existed before.

You fool, you only keep talking of my "bias" and my "blind hate" but you still ignoring evidence I give you, again Maric only was able to free Ferelden because of Loghain and Flemeth rather than by himself, so without Flemeth, Ferelden would not be free by now, even if we go back further, Ferelden's foundation depended of a mage that aided Calenhad, another useless dude that wouldn't made it by his own, the mage was stated being either a Witch of the Wilds or Magister Parthalan (legends, codex entries and side notes have confused me of who really was) but the point is it was a mage. Again the schemes were not "we f*ck Ferelden by taking his King" he was not king by the time he made a bargain, in fact be King was his benefice from such deal, he gave his word, enjoyed his victory and his part of the deal and remained faithful to his word, it was fair compared to Tallis, who is not mage, tricked Hawke and messed with a nation more directly, yet I don't see you arguing about that. Still, the Archdemon was his duty, he made a sworn, and he gave you command, he's not assuming any responsibility for that, just with breaking his word it was already betrayal, and pretty sure the Warden is not Ferelden nor the whole order, so he turned his back on his duty and on a lot of innocents for one "immoral" dude. Again Leliana didn't ask anything nor sworn was made, neither Wyne swore anything, however she got something in return so, it can fall on betrayal, but regardless what she dies, so I'm not concerned at her.I don't even know if you mean Dark Future - DAI Leliana or DAI -DAO Leliana. He definitely has blind hate toward Witches of the Wilds, he was blaming Flemeth for his status as King before he knew that Maric had an agreement with Flemeth, not even Gaider has said otherwise, when he came out to explain why the comics were not "character suicide" he said that Alistair is like that, even back to Origins, his words to describe his reasons to murder Yavana were "foolish but not out of character" what else you have to argue?

Correct me if I'm wrong but when a Saarebas has gone rogue for himself? pretty sure the Saarebas on the Tal-Vashot's side only went rogue because their whole patrol went rogue.

Fine, I'll let you keep your argument of "killing people for born like they were born is a healthy thing for a selfish society", still, I don't approve it, but any discussion with you seems to be little more than pointless. If were elves, it had to be a mage because elves can be born without any skill to control magic, even the ancient ones like Abelas' folks.

[Jaison1986]

Honestly, I think most folks in this discussion are pretty genuine.

 

It is pretty remarkable how some players find kinship with these fictional groups, as if they actually belong to them. Gotta admit, though, BioWare was pretty clever in their writing here, particularly with their portrayal of these groups. The mages in particular have all the qualities of your average gamer -- meek, bookish nerd types. Templar portrayal OTOH play to the nerds' natural rivals (jocks), along with other qualities that they tend to detest -- staunch religious beliefs, military culture, authority. Or, more broadly, this is people in minority groups identifying with what they see as an oppressed party (this one can extend to the setting's elf/human relations).

 

At times it really feels to me like players are airing out something deep in their subconscious when discussing this topic -- LOL!

 

Everybody roots for the underdogs. It's a common reaction for people to want to stand for tyranny. Or do you think that if we see some group being treated terribly with no chance to fight back, people would just remain indifferent? I mean, in the real world, yes. We are just squishy human beings with limited power, but these are video games were you have the power to make a stand, so people jump at it on the first opportunity. And this comes from someone that detests today culture of SJW's contantly whining and moaning about every single social issue. 

 

I simply see supporting the templars as utterly illogical, or hasn't real world history shown us that religious groups holding military power aways ends really badly?

[TheKomandorShepard]

You fool, you only keep talking of my "bias" and my "blind hate" but you still ignoring evidence I give you, again Maric only was able to free Ferelden because of Loghain and Flemeth rather than by himself, so without Flemeth, Ferelden would not be free by now, even if we go back further, Ferelden's foundation depended of a mage that aided Calenhad, another useless dude that wouldn't made it by his own, the mage was stated being either a Witch of the Wilds or Magister Parthalan (legends, codex entries and side notes have confused me of who really was) but the point is it was a mage. Again the schemes were not "we f*ck Ferelden by taking his King" he was not king by the time he made a bargain, in fact be King was his benefice from such deal, he gave his word, enjoyed his victory and his part of the deal and remained faithful to his word, it was fair compared to Tallis, who is not mage, tricked Hawke and messed with a nation more directly, yet I don't see you arguing about that. Still, the Archdemon was his duty, he made a sworn, and he gave you command, he's not assuming any responsibility for that, just with breaking his word it was already betrayal, and pretty sure the Warden is not Ferelden nor the whole order, so he turned his back on his duty and on a lot of innocents for one "immoral" dude. Again Leliana didn't ask anything nor sworn was made, neither Wyne swore anything, however she got something in return so, it can fall on betrayal, but regardless what she dies, so I'm not concerned at her.I don't even know if you mean Dark Future - DAI Leliana or DAI -DAO Leliana. He definitely has blind hate toward Witches of the Wilds, he was blaming Flemeth for his status as King before he knew that Maric had an agreement with Flemeth, not even Gaider has said otherwise, when he came out to explain why the comics were not "character suicide" he said that Alistair is like that, even back to Origins, his words to describe his reasons to murder Yavana were "foolish but not out of character" what else you have to argue?

Correct me if I'm wrong but when a Saarebas has gone rogue for himself? pretty sure the Saarebas on the Tal-Vashot's side only went rogue because their whole patrol went rogue.

Fine, I'll let you keep your argument of "killing people for born like they were born is a healthy thing for a selfish society", still, I don't approve it, but any discussion with you seems to be little more than pointless. If were elves, it had to be a mage because elves can be born without any skill to control magic, even the ancient ones like Abelas' folks.

 

You have no evidence at all you are talking about random stuff that is irevelant or try acusse alistair of something basing on insane logic of false information just for sake accusing him.  And not rly, marric corntributed to it as loghain did (what is in first place irevelant and shows you are desperate) it and that somone will help someone with something like move on to new house and then will burn house doesn't mean that person is innocent of burning house so no flemeth isn't innocent puppy as you claim her to be.And i didn't say schemes were to screw over ferelden in first place but they did f*** ferlden nor flemeth and yavana cared so your desperate attempts to turn it on marric who in first place didn't want to leave and left only because of their schemes once again are irrelevant what is pretty much 15 post i point it and yet you ignore it every time and in first place why i would argue about talis when she wasn't even brought up in our discussion once ,what kind of argument it is. And once again just because somone says something is your "duty" doesn't mean you have to do that ,i pointed about 200 times grey wardens did something irredeemable in his eyes he leaves you as leliana and wynne because of doing that ,also pretty much order accepted loghian despite what he did what i already said about 20 times he saw as irredeemable in his eyes and while ferelden people weren't involved ferelden authorities were ,alistair didn't want participate in this whole thing so he leaves and alone pretty much he can't do much. Wait ,wait , you acctualy don't mean comment from silent grove where alistair said that flemeth started him on path to become king? Becuase in first it isn't even blaming just stating she started his path to become king... Also grey wardens never swear anything that isn't part of joining in first place, so once again you are making stuff up just to pin something on alistair what is obvious bias and pretty much fits definition of blind hatred.   Also no his reasons weren't foolish but simple plain truth she was reason as well flemeth for marric disappearance and he shanked her for damage it brought . I don't need anything else to argue pretty much you proved my point for me.  

 

In dragon age redemption where qunari mage got out of control and tried to destroy world by tearing veil and brining an army of demons to destroy thedas (world).

Every society is selfish and sacrifices things that belong to others (not only their lives) for own comfort and safety ,and you don't have to approve it but that how world works. Not necessarily , it could have been elven gods , of course we don't know what elven gods are but doubtful they were normal mages and well assuming it were once again elves.  

[Kakistos_]

[Andromelek]

You have no evidence at all you are talking about random stuff that is irevelant or try acusse alistair of something basing on insane logic of false information just for sake accusing him.  And not rly, marric corntributed to it as loghain did (what is in first place irevelant and shows you are desperate) it and that somone will help someone with something like move on to new house and then will burn house doesn't mean that person is innocent of burning house so no flemeth isn't innocent puppy as you claim her to be.And i didn't say schemes were to screw over ferelden in first place but they did f*** ferlden nor flemeth and yavana cared so your desperate attempts to turn it on marric who in first place didn't want to leave and left only because of their schemes once again are irrelevant what is pretty much 15 post i point it and yet you ignore it every time and in first place why i would argue about talis when she wasn't even brought up in our discussion once ,what kind of argument it is. And once again just because somone says something is your "duty" doesn't mean you have to do that ,i pointed about 200 times grey wardens did something irredeemable in his eyes he leaves you as leliana and wynne because of doing that ,also pretty much order accepted loghian despite what he did what i already said about 20 times he saw as irredeemable in his eyes and while ferelden people weren't involved ferelden authorities were ,alistair didn't want participate in this whole thing so he leaves and alone pretty much he can't do much. Wait ,wait , you acctualy don't mean comment from silent grove where alistair said that flemeth started him on path to become king? Becuase in first it isn't even blaming just stating she started his path to become king... Also grey wardens never swear anything that isn't part of joining in first place, so once again you are making stuff up just to pin something on alistair what is obvious bias and pretty much fits definition of blind hatred.   Also no his reasons weren't foolish but simple plain truth she was reason as well flemeth for marric disappearance and he shanked her for damage it brought . I don't need anything else to argue pretty much you proved my point for me.  
 
In dragon age redemption where qunari mage got out of control and tried to destroy world by tearing veil and brining an army of demons to destroy thedas (world).
Every society is selfish and sacrifices things that belong to others (not only their lives) for own comfort and safety ,and you don't have to approve it but that how world works. Not necessarily , it could have been elven gods , of course we don't know what elven gods are but doubtful they were normal mages and well assuming it were once again elves.

Insane logic, false, biased, desperate? Let's put the things on the table shall we? The dude has been on the Templars, while he didn't swore anything, he got the training that basically attached him to the order, just for the training the order would hunted him for leaving under any other circumstance, the Wardens saved him, and he swore to fight the Blight, he kept the whole truth about the joining from the recruits, then Loghain left Cailan to die and Duncan and many Wardens were killed in the process, Flemeth saved him and the Warden, she offered them Morrigan's aid to leave safely the Korcari Wilds and Alistair didn't delayed much on speak crap of her (again), as Senior Warden, he was the one who had to lead instead he decided to flee from such responsibility and give it to the Warden he spends the journey living on the past and complaining of how bad the life has treated him, trying to drag anyone else to his sorrow, even when some companions had worse experiences, soon he begins to remark any mistake the Warden can do without remembering he was the dude who threw command away, such thing it's even more unfair on Redcliffe, after that, he complains but doesn't act if the Warden does any immoral decision because that was in order to stop the Blight and get his vengeance the Warden can be either a douchebag or the person who has done more things for him, that doesn't matter when the time comes to judge Loghain, if he is given the chance to be used against Archdemon, he automatically dumps his duty, whatever the Warden did for him, friendship or even love included, the fact that is because the Wardens that the Templars didn't cut his throat, and ignores the fact that many people, including the family he claims he loves, can die fighting the Blight that was the only thing he swore would do, the only "heroic" thing he does is killing himself against the Archdemon, and again he only does such thing if you submit to his tantrum, if he survives the Blight and becomes King (in which case he doesn't do anything heroic) rather than doing his part and ruling the country (thing for what he has left another order which also tends to hunt deserters) he rather goes in seek of his father (that for what he knew was already a sack of bones) to pass to him his responsibility, then you know the story, he got aid of a witch, but he didn't even showed any respect nor gratitude because he clearly hated her since the beginning, to the point he even changed his mind of running away from duty, nothing to blame him after that, well, until he brought the mage rebellion to Teagan's territory, you can argue that Anora does the same, but Teagan is the second or the first person (depending of player's choices) that shows he cares more of him, so quite unfair he sent Teagan to ask for the money to the Inquisition. From wherever I see it, he is an ungrateful and irresponsible traitor that uses institutions or people to run away from a former responsibility, and when they are no longer useful, he betrays and leaves them to die or kills them even. Beside being an hypocrite with incongruent moral, pretty sure that Eamon has wronged him badly, to the point to use him as pawn and being responsible for putting him between frying his mind on lyrium and cut off his lifespan to half. Pretty sure that he has never asked himself who is victim and who is foe nor he takes any responsibility for the things he does. Regarding your other arguments you still trying to whitewash Maric and put Witches upstairs, for the last time I tell you, it was a deal and he agreed without be threatened, if you hire an assassin both will share the guilt of the dude was killed, your analogy with the house is pretty much out of place, we are talking about major favours like aiding someone to get a large amount of power or saving life which is something that regardless the intentions still counting, with the only exception of a fake rescue from dudes that were set in motion by the "savior", beside a more correct analogy would be they called him to another house and he left, in the meantime a dude who played with fireworks burned the house accidentally. That thing you say of "you don't have to do your duty if you don't want to" is such a weak argument, the duty is something that has to be done even more if was willingly chosen like Templars and Warders, you even brought Thrask on display of subject to be blamed for the incompetence of the Templars and what he did was pretty much not do what he was meant to do, you just tied your noose with that. And actually "foolish but not out of character" were Gaider's words, not mines, read before try to jump on me. I've given you enough reasons of why I hate Alistair and I'm being fair by putting him on the traitors' bag, aside I have to ask, why a person that immediately jumped straight on a genocide (children included) in order to grant seemingly stability without thinking about it twice would have any problem with my assessment to hunt down traitors? Pretty sure they are grown ups that can protect themselves and that they took a choice for which they must answer for.

And Solas it's a mage, even abominations like Anders still count as mages.

[MadMadCarl]

 

yah yah, now be the mature guy and end the fight, people is telling you warder and komandor disregard anything, there is no sense on discuss with them it seems, do a favour to yourself and dont fall to their level

[TheKomandorShepard]

Insane logic, false, biased, desperate? Let's put the things on the table shall we? The dude has been on the Templars, while he didn't swore anything, he got the training that basically attached him to the order, just for the training the order would hunted him for leaving under any other circumstance, the Wardens saved him, and he swore to fight the Blight, he kept the whole truth about the joining from the recruits, then Loghain left Cailan to die and Duncan and many Wardens were killed in the process, Flemeth saved him and the Warden, she offered them Morrigan's aid to leave safely the Korcari Wilds and Alistair didn't delayed much on speak crap of her (again), as Senior Warden, he was the one who had to lead instead he decided to flee from such responsibility and give it to the Warden he spends the journey living on the past and complaining of how bad the life has treated him, trying to drag anyone else to his sorrow, even when some companions had worse experiences, soon he begins to remark any mistake the Warden can do without remembering he was the dude who threw command away, such thing it's even more unfair on Redcliffe, after that, he complains but doesn't act if the Warden does any immoral decision because that was in order to stop the Blight and get his vengeance the Warden can be either a douchebag or the person who has done more things for him, that doesn't matter when the time comes to judge Loghain, if he is given the chance to be used against Archdemon, he automatically dumps his duty, whatever the Warden did for him, friendship or even love included, the fact that is because the Wardens that the Templars didn't cut his throat, and ignores the fact that many people, including the family he claims he loves, can die fighting the Blight that was the only thing he swore would do, the only "heroic" thing he does is killing himself against the Archdemon, and again he only does such thing if you submit to his tantrum, if he survives the Blight and becomes King (in which case he doesn't do anything heroic) rather than doing his part and ruling the country (thing for what he has left another order which also tends to hunt deserters) he rather goes in seek of his father (that for what he knew was already a sack of bones) to pass to him his responsibility, then you know the story, he got aid of a witch, but he didn't even showed any respect nor gratitude because he clearly hated her since the beginning, to the point he even changed his mind of running away from duty, nothing to blame him after that, well, until he brought the mage rebellion to Teagan's territory, you can argue that Anora does the same, but Teagan is the second or the first person (depending of player's choices) that shows he cares more of him, so quite unfair he sent Teagan to ask for the money to the Inquisition. From wherever I see it, he is an ungrateful and irresponsible traitor that uses institutions or people to run away from a former responsibility, and when they are no longer useful, he betrays and leaves them to die or kills them even. Beside being an hypocrite with incongruent moral, pretty sure that Eamon has wronged him badly, to the point to use him as pawn and being responsible for putting him between frying his mind on lyrium and cut off his lifespan to half. Pretty sure that he has never asked himself who is victim and who is foe nor he takes any responsibility for the things he does. Regarding your other arguments you still trying to whitewash Maric and put Witches upstairs, for the last time I tell you, it was a deal and he agreed without be threatened, if you hire an assassin both will share the guilt of the dude was killed, your analogy with the house is pretty much out of place, we are talking about major favours like aiding someone to get a large amount of power or saving life which is something that regardless the intentions still counting, with the only exception of a fake rescue from dudes that were set in motion by the "savior", beside a more correct analogy would be they called him to another house and he left, in the meantime a dude who played with fireworks burned the house accidentally. That thing you say of "you don't have to do your duty if you don't want to" is such a weak argument, the duty is something that has to be done even more if was willingly chosen like Templars and Warders, you even brought Thrask on display of subject to be blamed for the incompetence of the Templars and what he did was pretty much not do what he was meant to do, you just tied your noose with that. And actually "foolish but not out of character" were Gaider's words, not mines, read before try to jump on me. I've given you enough reasons of why I hate Alistair and I'm being fair by putting him on the traitors' bag, aside I have to ask, why a person that immediately jumped straight on a genocide (children included) in order to grant seemingly stability without thinking about it twice would have any problem with my assessment to hunt down traitors? Pretty sure they are grown ups that can protect themselves and that they took a choice for which they must answer for.

And Solas it's a mage, even abominations like Anders still count as mages.

 

Yep ,even now you are desperate trying bring fact he was templar what is irrelevant and while the wardens saved him from being templar the wardens also deliberately tricked him as everyone so if you try say that wardens recruited him as he has to do everything they say or he is bad person you are doing bad job just to paint alistair bad , also once again you are making stuff up he didn't swore anything in first place there is no oath during joining so pretty much he is as bound as the warden party members and even less considering grey wardens deliberately tricked him so have no moral ground to expect someone to be loyal toward them when they tricked him ,and yep that he kept truth from recruits was d move but if he didn't see jory. Also pretty much pretty much rest of it is your angry rant about alistair how he is horrible person because he didn't want to be a leader and he complained that his friends died and was hunted and told you about his life when you asked him about it (how dare he). Also he complains about your choices as other more moral companions do despite he isn't leader and you don't need to be leader to complain about choices your leaders make ,the warden also can be an angel when they will corrupt ashes but it doesn't change fact that wynne and leliana will see this as crossing the line and leave you because of this single act same here .Also important is that alistair belives in grey wardens as a order what is destroyed if they decide accept loghain as their member after all he did.And once again that you are someone friend or even lover doesn't mean that they should accept and agree with everything you are doing ,friendship card or even lover won't save you from wynne or leliana leaving you after you crossed moral event horizon in their eyes so once again you live in illusion.Also once again he didn't do that because you submited to his "tantrum" only because he thought it was his job as grey warden , recruiting loghain only causes him to leave you and grey wardens because once again you cross the line in his eyes so do order so once again this event makes him lose faith in order.Also in first place he didn't want to be king and didn't have to if he becomes one it is for good of ferelden no other reason so yeah...   As you comment about flemeth from what i know she saved him because she wanted to use him and the warden , what pretty much alistair suspects and is in fact nothing more than truth so keep going with your illusion.Also outright false statement once again and it is something i have already told you alistair went after marric because crows send him an evidence they have captured him ,also nor he should show any gratitude to yavana who tried to use him as tool for own ends.As for alistair being hypocrite i agree but that is about it ,also eamon didn't try use alistair at least not for personal gain only to stop loghain in order to stop blight what alistair wasn't happy about so i don't see problem. Also while eamon send alistair to the chantry he only set him on path to become grey warden , pretty much he forgiven eamon that he send him to the chantry as he does the warden if he makes them king.         
 

Also in first place im not whitwashing Maric ,in first place you are one who brought him into discussion not me. I discussed mere fact that witches schemes as once again i have said were reason of why maric left ferelden what is in fact reason why maric left ferelden if not that flemeth wanted to use marric for own goals he would have stayed in ferelden.Also my analogy was correct because because it was about person destroying something even if they had hand in doing in it and that it doesn't make it any better ,house was just result she lead to and brought it down what lead bad situation in ferelden , of course once again felemeth wasn't only one who contributed to it but she did because of her own intrests.No it isn't ,once again "duty" is pretty much imposed obligation by others or yourself and can be even forced by others unwillingly but in the end you can refuse.I brought thrask because in first place he was too soft to be templar and in any way i didn't say thing he did made him "bad" person only crappy templar and well dumb person after all he unleashed blood mages and abomnations.Also once again it wasn't foolish because his reasons were in fact truth , of course i would shank yavana for entirely different.Also in first place place being "traitor" doesn't stop you from being heroic character as i said his treachery consisted of levaing you afer you did something morally inexcusable in his eyes same as wynne what doesn't change fact she was heroic character and one of most moral companions , also i don't care about you hunting him down for desertion because in first place i don't object to doing that but my problem with him being "traitor" isn't for any moral reasons only pragmatic and he could cause future problems for ferelden and as well show that desertion goes unpunished , also same for mages i don't argue that some mages aren't heroic characters as the reason i go for "kill them all" was also pragmatic as they are huge threat.       .       

 

Solas isn't what he used to be in first place while he could be also mage i doubt that he was normal mage considering whole elven gods stuff we saw , abomnations are more than normal mages and pretty much that is one of the reasons they pose even greater than normal mages , or to say better one of the reasons why normal mages are so dangerous.     

[Donk]

[Andromelek]

yah yah, now be the mature guy and end the fight, people is telling you warder and komandor disregard anything, there is no sense on discuss with them it seems, do a favour to yourself and dont fall to their level

Hmph, Fine! Aside his sudden "stuttering" and that he jumped on me for something that Gaider said (again) if he really is so flawed to believe his definition of "duty" or to believe that traitors are far away from being the worst class of person in the world, then indeed is useless try to reason with him.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hmph, Fine! Aside his sudden "stuttering" and that he jumped on me for something that Gaider said (again) if he really is so flawed to believe his definition of "duty" or to believe that traitors are far away from being the worst class of person in the world, then indeed is useless try to reason with him.

 

Hah, i jumped you for thing you were saying not Gaider ,and i don't belive in such thing as duty in first place ,however i think it is great way to control people and make them do what you want.Also yep traitors are far away from being the worst class of person in the world i already explained it all depends on who ,why and how person betrayed somone ,so it isn't black and white as you would like to paint it, i don't think many people would say that person that left an army that was raping and pillaging because they crossed line for him was horrible person in moral sense.     

[Andromelek]

Hah, i jumped you for thing you were saying not Gaider ,and i don't belive in such thing as duty in first place ,however i think it is great way to control people and make them do what you want.Also yep traitors are far away from being the worst class of person in the world i already explained it all depends on who ,why and how person betrayed somone ,so it isn't black and white as you would like to paint it, i don't think many people would say that person that left an army that was raping and pillaging because they crossed line for him was horrible person in moral sense.

Argh! I'm saying that I won't argue with you and you still coming for more fight! so you don't believe in duty? quite sure that it explains a lot. Also, no, rape and pillage is far away of what the Warden was doing, Alistair may be tricked by the Wardens on the matter they didn't told him the truth of the joining, but they never said they were cops that bring "justice" on society matters they only fight the Blight and they have the belief that anyone can be a hero who fights the Blight, even criminals and apostates, so, the dude just fooled himself with an ideal that never was there. And no, I don't try to paint the world white and black, as I said humans themselves often are selfishin in behaviour, but I do see traitors as the worst for the things they do, I would ask you who you think is the worst kind of person, but given that for you are not traitors and sure are not dudes willing to genocide to get a "greater goal" I'm sure I already know the answer and which arguments you will use.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Argh! I'm saying that I won't argue with you and you still coming for more fight, so you don't believe in duty? quite sure that it explains a lot. Also, no, rape and pillage is far away of what the Warden was doing, Alistair may be tricked by the Wardens on the matter they didn't told him the truth of the joining, but they never said they were cops that bring "justice" on society matters they only fight the Blight and they have the belief that anyone can be a hero who fights the Blight, even criminals and apostates, so, the dude just fooled himself with an ideal that never was there. And no, I don't try to paint the world white and black, as I said humans themselves often are selfishin in behaviour, but I do see traitors as the worst for the things they do, I would ask you who you think is the worst kind of person, but given that for you are not traitors and sure are not dudes willing to genocide to get a "greater goal" I'm sure I already know the answer and which arguments you will use.

 

For you perhaps, once again so is destruction of the urn most people have own priorities when it comes to right and wrong.No he never said that, but it is pretty much obvious he expects grey wardens to held certain standards even in reality they don't and wardens never were heroes perhaps individual members were whole order is anti-heroic ,and yes you are correct he is fooled and naive about it.For me worst kind of person is that stands between me and my goals but then im not into morality type but considering how people get too emotional about my soultion i guess "dudes willing to genocide" are considered worst kind of person.