275 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

So many walls of text...

[TobiTobsen]

So many walls of text...

 

The two of them should just get a room and get over with it!

[Donk]

The parts that cracked me up were "I'm not arguing with you any more!" then.. "Hmph!! Fine then" - proceeds with walls of text.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Everybody roots for the underdogs. It's a common reaction for people to want to stand (against?) tyranny. Or do you think that if we see some group being treated terribly with no chance to fight back, people would just remain indifferent? I mean, in the real world, yes. We are just squishy human beings with limited power, but these are video games were you have the power to make a stand, so people jump at it on the first opportunity. And this comes from someone that detests today culture of SJW's contantly whining and moaning about every single social issue. 

 

I simply see supporting the templars as utterly illogical, or hasn't real world history shown us that religious groups holding military power aways ends really badly?

 

To a point.

 

I mean, I started off on the "mage independence" bandwagon myself, but then mages only grew to disappoint me every time -- and I think disappointment begets disillusionment with whatever beliefs you once held dear.

 

Also, I am a firm believer in holding one's self accountable, so one of the things I saw that detracted me from the defense of mages was the frequent lack of accountability and answering to valid concerns with wishful thinking -- the mages' mistakes were/are always someone else's fault, and they deserve a second (or third) chance because they will do better this time, trust me. It is weak IMO. If you do not accept responsibility for what you do, then you do not deserve more responsibilities. And I prefer realism to optimism (and pessimism). One should base their hopes and expectations on data, not preconceived convictions -- and let's face it, the mages' data is lousy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Don't get me wrong, I do think the Circle (pre-Inquisition) is too strict and support reforming things with it. Obviously the writers would not have made the existing solution the perfect one if there was going to be an impetus on us players to change it, so it was clearly flawed from the get-go. Giving them complete independence, though?? That's just crazy-talk.

 

The mages' biggest proponents always want to remind you that mages are just humans/people, but I find that that is a point that works against their position. We are bad enough without magic (or even mundane weapons). Can you see now the issue I have with letting people with inborn and nigh-undetectable weapons walk as freely as any other man?

 

On a related note, ever heard of the weapons-effect?

[dragonflight288]

To a point.

 

I mean, I started off on the "mage independence" bandwagon myself, but then mages only grew to disappoint me every time -- and I think disappointment begets disillusionment with whatever beliefs you once held dear.

 

Also, I am a firm believer in holding one's self accountable, so one of the things I saw that detracted me from the defense of mages was the frequent lack of accountability and answering to valid concerns with wishful thinking -- the mages' mistakes were/are always someone else's fault, and they deserve a second (or third) chance because they will do better this time, trust me. It is weak IMO. If you do not accept responsibility for what you do, then you do not deserve more responsibilities. And I prefer realism to optimism (and pessimism). One should base their hopes and expectations on data, not preconceived convictions -- and let's face it, the mages' data is lousy.

 

To be honest, I'm largely on the circle reformation bandwagon myself. I personally am not willing to write off the college under Leliana entirely simply because I have absolutely no details on how it will be run, the system that will be in place to train mages and keep their powers in check, especially in the inevitable worst-case scenario that comes from weak or power-hungry mages, and the delicate balance that must be kept.

 

But I also feel that the templars and seekers, as organizations through history, have so thoroughly abused their authority and powers dealing with mages and the circles that I feel that they have forfeited all trust I had in both groups dealing with the Circle's and mages ethically, and I have no trust in either group to deal with mages with dignity and, in the event the sword of justice must be brought down, impartially and without bias. 

 

Of all the groups we have met, I think the Avaar have the best system. They commune with the spirits, offer to them, and form friendships with them, willingly get possessed and learn magic from beings made up entirely of magic, and the spirits in turn help protect them from the demons who would prey on them, and even physically in their wars.

 

But even the Avaar have to kill exceptionally weak mages for the safety of the tribe, so I'm not ignoring that sometimes mages simply cannot control their powers. 

 

For me, it's no so much "freedom is the divine right of all people including mages just because," rather than it's "mages need to learn to control their powers so they are no risk to themselves and others around them, unless they choose to be just like any trained warrior skilled assassin, and if they can live among people without fear or prejudice, they can become more well-rounded as people and as mages."

 

I think the biggest flaw of the Circle system, of which there are many, is the emotional and social disconnect between mages and the world, and templars and the mages. It allows the templars to dehumanize, or de-elfize, the mages and treat them as less than people, and it keeps the mages from understanding how the world outside the circle's work, as we see with that mage who complains to Cassandra about the conditions they are living in whether conscripted or allied with, but the conditions they are in are the exact same as everyone else. 

 

It's very insulated. 

[dragonflight288]

Can't say I have heard of the weapon effect, but it is a fascinating study.

[Dean_the_Young]

A "semi-regular basis" is implied absolutely nowhere, while being a completely meaningless phrase in addition. What data are we using to designate abomination occurrence as semi-regular? What's regular, what's rare?

 

Natural disasters are, by their nature, semi-regular: be they tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, droughts, floods, or tsunamis, they may not happen on regular basis (as in, at reliable and predictable intervals), but they often happen in reliably irregular ways (seasonal, annual, or every few years). Semi-regular is a useful indicator for something that happens on a non-predictable but reliable rate.

 

Abominationhood and even outbreaks are not a once-a-century, once-a-lifetime, or even once-a-decade event. Abominations are frequent enough that not only Southern Thedas but even the Tevinter Imperium keep dedicated standing armies to target not just outbreaks but mages who are among the most likely to resort to it, and that Dalish tribes have a tradition of not allowing more than three mages in a clan at a time out of concern of consequences.

 

The data we have is our own observations from games, standing abomination-response policies from three of the largest societal groups, and the typical regularity of the analogy provided by Devs for another group.

[dragonflight288]

TKS is a person with a very narrow viewpoint.

Just curious though, how do you view the conscription of rebel mages on the grounds that they allied themselves with Tevinter ?

Interesting question, as this is how I approached my first play through.

I dealt with the mages because I was not comfortable having Tevinter working and recruiting in Ferelden, while holding one of the most defensible keeps in Ferelden, as I think the upgraded Vigil's keep in Awakening is stronger, and wanted them out.

I largely hold Fiona responsible for selling herself and the other mages into servitude. The leadership of both mages and Templars gave their underlings the short end of the stick.

I conscripted them in my first play through because, even though most of them opposed the deal with Tevinter, like Lysas, I didn't trust the leadership not to screw the pooch, again, with our generosity.

I saw how Teagan, Alistair and Anora were rewarded for theirs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Placing Mages back under the "protection" of the order of fanatics that were just waging war on mages is not a moderate position.

 

Eh, kind of is, actually. So long as said fanatics aren't waging a war of extermination, which the Templars that would be accepting surrender wouldn't be, that's pretty much par for course for any failed rebellion- the rebels are expected to go back under the authority of the regime and military authority that existed before.

 

It's certainly not popular, but it's hardly a radical position. The Templars are a professional military that the Mages rebelled against. The mages didn't win. Calling the Templars fanatics is just rhetoric on a timeless context.

[Dean_the_Young]

And mages are the only advantage thedas has against the qunari

 

Numbers might also have had something to do with it.

 

 

[dragonflight288]

Numbers might also have had something to do with it.

I think I saw a codex somewhere that said the Qunari chose to retreat when the death toll of non-combatants was at an all-time high.

I may be wrong though.

[Dean_the_Young]

It might have been a fine thing to do to avoid the war, though I'm sceptical as to it's long term effectiveness, but it seems ridiculous to expect it to work after it.

You can't have a police force that was fighting a war against the people they're now policing. The relationship is broken and you're not going to fix it by tweaking a few laws. When it's gone that far it's not going to be fixed,

 

I'm guessing you're not an American, or a citizen of the UK, or any other country that's had a major rebellion, civil war, or insurrection that was put down by military.

 

There's a pretty long history of a insurrections being successfully put down and military authority re-asserted. Most insurrections and insurgencies fail, actually. While all regimes (governments regardless of moral character) ultimately fail, most overcome and endure more uprisings than not.
 

I mean, if you think having some sort of templar like organisation is a good idea, then you could found a new one. But at least give it a new name, new banners, new personnel etc to give it a chance of a fresh start.

 

 

Pretending that a templar-like organization that uses lyrium for anti-magic (because that's the only mass-producible and systemically available means for anti-magic), answers to the Chantry (which is the only instition with the international legitimacy, pocketbook, and ability to oversee and run the Circles), and is composed of the same sort of people and in many cases the same people who composed the Templars (because they're used to it, good at it, and care about it), is a 'fresh start' is kind of a farce. The Tevinter Emperium could change the drapes and call the Magistrum 'the Happy Hour Club', but it'd still be Tevinter and still be the Magistrum in practice even if not in name.

 

Any Divine other than Leliana- and possibly even Leliana once the honeymoon period of the 'for now' qualifier wears off- is going to be asserting its authority over an old system with the Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think I saw a codex somewhere that said the Qunari chose to retreat when the death toll of non-combatants was at an all-time high.

I may be wrong though.

 

You're not, but that doesn't challenge the point- it proves it. In the first war, Quanri military quality was superior enough that military attrition of the Qunari armies was low. At the same time, however, the Qunari armies weren't able to conquer Thedas- and not just because magic either.

 

The only way that can occur- that Thedas could wage decades (or was it centuries?) of warfare against a foe that even in the closing years was not suffering remarkable military attrition rates- is if the Andrastian nations had a lot more numbers to to be able to throw ineffectually at the Qunari. Which would be an advantage.

 

Otherwise, if there were equivalent numbers but Qunari quality was simply that much higher, the Qunari really would have overrun all of Thedas and not just half of it.

[dragonflight288]

I wasn't trying to challenge the point, merely add context.

But it's also said in another codex that the Qunari technological advantage was met with magic.

But as we also saw in Kirkwall, a lot of the disenfranchised (city elves) or those with doubts (Seamus) converted to the Qun as well.

I think the Qunari wars were very complex and can't be simplified as just numbers or just magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

Maybe standard, but not aways the only outcome. Especially considering the templars don't aways win, there are scenarios were their order is destroyed forever and mages become independant from the Chantry, be it alone or with the Inquisition.

 

Eh, you might want to work on that.

 

The first sentence in inarguable, but also irrelevant to what you quoted, since what you quoted was whether accepting Templar military authority was an extreme position. By history, the re-assertion of military authority after a failed rebellion is normal- and normal things,by their nature of being typical, are not extreme positions. Your first point, also based on history, doesn't actually counter JB.

 

The second sentence is troubled on a number of points. The Templars always win the war in the field, even if the mages win the peace with Leliana, but even in that context the Mages are both under the military authority of the Inquisition for as long as that lasts (and the Inquisition is made of considerable parts Templars), and under the providence of the Chantry. The Mages are never independent of the Chantry- Leliana lets them free of the Circles, but the power (and the authority/enforcement behind it) are the Chantry's. The Chantry and Divine can give the Mages considerable autonomy... but they can also revoke that autonomy later if they wish, and  even if they don't the mages are still diplomatically tied to the Chantry, both through the Inquisition (which is a close ally if not subordinate unit) and through the fact that any international mage policy depends on, well, the international perview of the Chantry.

 

Mages aren't independent if their autonomy depends on the whims of the Chantry, and if they rely on the Chantry to prevent the nations from picking them apart.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fully agree. You cannot negotiate with an ideology / collective whose central tenet is to expand all over the world via force and then turning people into unthinking individuals fit for a role.

 

Sure you can. There's a long and established history of diplomacy between groups that have ideologies that demand the eventual erradication of the other. The only necessity is the key word 'eventual'.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wasn't trying to challenge the point, merely add context.

But it's also said in another codex that the Qunari technological advantage was met with magic.

But as we also saw in Kirkwall, a lot of the disenfranchised (city elves) or those with doubts (Seamus) converted to the Qun as well.

I think the Qunari wars were very complex and can't be simplified as just numbers or just magic.

 

Eh. Not sure what context you're trying to add to what point, then.

 

It's pretty clear that the Qunari wars were about as close to the concept of Total War that can be supported in Thedas- and that the larger population was the Andrastian coalition, not the Quanri invaders who ultimately claimed a few small, relatively undeveloped, islands and peninsula.

 

Numbers were a general advantage for the Andrastians: the Qunari had more support than people realized, but the Qunari were never the 'limitless hoarde' dynamic.

[Dean_the_Young]

True, but she does have a tendency to overlook the "why" mages absolutely need training when she really gets into the debates. 

 

She's also argued for the subjugation and exploitations of mundanes in order to fund the hedonism of a mageocracy.

 

No, really- when confronted once with a direct question about how happy and content and abomination-free mages would really be if they escaped the stress of the towers for the stress of the poverty of the free folk, Xil's answer was that they (the mages) should have all their physical needs and securities paid for by tithes from the mundanes, so that they'd be safe and comfortable and free from the stresses of mundanity.

 

That was the nice version. It got creepy-disturbing when she was asked what would happen if the poor peasants didn't want pay for the Circle standards of living.

[dragonflight288]

Eh. Not sure what context you're trying to add to what point, then.

It's pretty clear that the Qunari wars were about as close to the concept of Total War that can be supported in Thedas- and that the larger population was the Andrastian coalition, not the Quanri invaders who ultimately claimed a few small, relatively undeveloped, islands and peninsula.

Numbers were a general advantage for the Andrastians: the Qunari had more support than people realized, but the Qunari were never the 'limitless hoarde' dynamic.

Mostly the context is trying to see the larger picture.

I agree that the Qunari were a limitless hord, or rather were not, and this didn't Zerg rush Thedas.

But they do have one of the most disciplined militaries in Thedas, a huge technological advantage, as well as physical superiority. And when they converted people, they were fanatical in their belief, or held to it so strongly they could not be returned to the worship of the Maker, as we see in Northern Rivain.

If anything, I'd say the Qunari are closer to the Protoss in Star Craft, technologically advanced with very powerful singular soldiers.

I agree that Thedas has the numerical advantage, but it is also telling that the strength of the Qunari were sufficient to unify an entire continent, even making Orlais, Nevarra and such willing to ally with Tevinter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Everybody roots for the underdogs. It's a common reaction for people to want to stand for tyranny. Or do you think that if we see some group being treated terribly with no chance to fight back, people would just remain indifferent? I mean, in the real world, yes. We are just squishy human beings with limited power, but these are video games were you have the power to make a stand, so people jump at it on the first opportunity. And this comes from someone that detests today culture of SJW's contantly whining and moaning about every single social issue. 

 

Video games are about crushing legions of underdogs underneath the boots of PC overpoweredness.
 

 

I simply see supporting the templars as utterly illogical, or hasn't real world history shown us that religious groups holding military power aways ends really badly?

 

 

No. No it has not.

 

(Or at least no more than secular groups and actors (who, when you get down to it, are almost always the ones who really had the military power.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Mostly the context is trying to see the larger picture.

I agree that the Qunari were a limitless hord, or rather were not, and this didn't Zerg rush Thedas.

But they do have one of the most disciplined militaries in Thedas, a huge technological advantage, as well as physical superiority. And when they converted people, they were fanatical in their belief, or held to it so strongly they could not be returned to the worship of the Maker, as we see in Northern Rivain.

If anything, I'd say the Qunari are closer to the Protoss in Star Craft, technologically advanced with very powerful singular soldiers.

I agree that Thedas has the numerical advantage, but it is also telling that the strength of the Qunari were sufficient to unify an entire continent, even making Orlais, Nevarra and such willing to ally with Tevinter.

 

Again- not really seeing your point. You aren't disagreeing with someone's argument, or making a clear argument of your own, or contesting facts or claims.

 

If I understand right, you're basically just saying that the Qunari are a strong power. Okay? Not sure anyone was disputing that, so what's it got to do with the price of rice?

[Boost32]

Hopefully soon the Divine Victoria, the first mage Divine in the White Chantry, will call a Exalted March on those heathens cows men. My Inquisitor will lead his army against them and finally drive them out of Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Again- not really seeing your point. You aren't disagreeing with someone's argument, or making a clear argument of your own, or contesting facts or claims.

If I understand right, you're basically just saying that the Qunari are a strong power. Okay? Not sure anyone was disputing that, so what's it got to do with the price of rice?

Not really making an argument at all.

I'm on a long drive as I'm off to vacation; I'm mostly passing the time talking about Dragon Age.

[Boost32]

Not really making an argument at all.
I'm on a long drive as I'm off to vacation; I'm mostly passing the time talking about Dragon Age.

Beware the spoilers from the Trepasser when you come back.