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Why Archdemon didn't escape from battle?


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19 réponses à ce sujet

#1
German Soldier

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This creatures are supposed to be intelligent, rather than simple dragons so why he didn't escape from the final battle when he was on top of fort drakon?
On can argue that Riordan injured his wing but it doesn't work since that tainted creature recover quickly from injuries (codex on Ogre)
especially Archdemons.
In fact that thing was still capable to fly in battle vs he party,and in the Dlc
(darkspawn chronicles) i saw him fly away 3 sec after the battle.
Previous archdemons were defeated because they couldn't escape from the GW who used the griffins,but this one imho was virtually unstoppable in Denerim,because you know theodosian doesn't know the meaning of antiaircraft


#2
Illegitimus

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Might not have had a strong drive for self-preservation.  Most tainted things don't.  



#3
Taki17

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The Archdemon most likely didn't want to lose the battle. Archdemons only flee when their darkspawn army is decimated, that's how they got Dumat for the first time (the one who killed him wasn't a Warden, so he respawned after that). Darkspawn weren't exactly losing at the battle of Denerim, they had already taken most of the city when the reinforcements arrived, and even then, it was a tough fight. The Archdemon leaving would've meant a lost battle for the darkspawn, as they would most likely follow their leader, who - yet - had no reason to flee the city.

 

Assuming archdemons have some level of sentience, I think it was his pride that kept him going after the wing injury, thinking that he and his army can take on the few Wardens and the soldiers, but when the Archdemon realised he's going to have his a$$ handed to him, he was already too weak and injured to flee.


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#4
thats1evildude

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They don't heal THAT quickly. Riordan hurt its wing pretty badly and it was on top of a massive fortress. Jumping off might have crippled it but not killed it, leaving it easy pickings for the Wardens.

 

Also, the Archdemons are extremely vain. Fleeing from the Wardens in full view of its troops would have been a blow to its ego.


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#5
Vlada47

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I actually think Riordan's blade did the trick, I honestly doubt the archdemon poses healing factor of the Wolverine.


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#6
Tidus

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There's no doubt the  darkspawn  was indeed winning the battle for Denerim since they out numbered the Army 3-1 and as Riordan noted the Army wouldn't last long. This is where  Alistair and the our warden breaks from the fight and chooses two of the group to help make the attack on the archdemon. At this point in the battle of Denerim  is at the point of no return with little or no hope of victory. IIRC the only one that can't see that is Alistair.

 

Had the archdemon  left the battle the Darkspawn would retreated  just like  they would if the  archdemon was slain.



#7
German Soldier

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Also, the Archdemons are extremely vain. Fleeing from the Wardens in full view of its troops would have been a blow to its ego.

well it doesn't make sense to me they are supposed to be intelligent,the darkspawn are not troops they are minions they follow the leader without questioning his actions.
Also an AD have the luxury to lose any battle that he wish,because you know his army doesn't have any problem of short numbers.

 

There's no doubt the  darkspawn  was indeed winning the battle for Denerim since they out numbered the Army 3-1 and as Riordan noted the Army wouldn't last long. This is where  Alistair and the our warden breaks from the fight and chooses two of the group to help make the attack on the archdemon. At this point in the battle of Denerim  is at the point of no return with little or no hope of victory. IIRC the only one that can't see that is Alistair.

 

Had the archdemon  left the battle the Darkspawn would retreated  just like  they would if the  archdemon was slain.

retreated but not permanently,usually AD never appear into the battlefield for a reason because they are intelligent.


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#8
Secret Rare

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There's no doubt the  darkspawn  was indeed winning the battle for Denerim since they out numbered the Army 3-1

GW of the past handled 20-30 darkspawn for man,so be in a 3-1 situation  is not such a big problem,regular darkspawn are weak



#9
Tidus

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The AD may not be all that intelligent as he is head strong.. He was  severely wounded with a rather large gash down his back  and yet he still fought on.. Of course having the spirit of a  old god may have given him strength even though he will be killed.

 

During a blight the AD is at the head of the horde and the only time we faced the horde was at Denerim..Riordan mention that the AD finally showed its self when we arrived at the castle in Redcliff.



#10
Tidus

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Secret Rare, Remember we had a  basically a inexperience rag time Army not a well trained Darkapawn fighting  Army of Wardens.

 

Notice how fast they started  falling at the beginning of the battle of Denerim.. Even Riordan stated the Army wouldn't last long.



#11
Vlada47

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You have 3 Grey Wardens (including yourself) in the battle... rest of the army are regular people. I would expect army of dwarfs from Orzammar will have more impact, but apart from them... Large chunk of human army is composed of conscripted commoners, inexperienced militia and city guards, elves are probably lightly equipped and generally not used to fight in sieges, magi can do a lot of damage, but they need to keep a distance, so they don't die like flies.  
 
So if they are outnumbered 3-to-1, they definitely can't defeat the horde conventionally. Besides... regular darkspawn shouldn't be weak (I don't take the game giving them 10 health points in the end seriously), they should be at least as strong as their counterparts (hurlock - human, genlock - dwarf...) and they are basically mindless - they don't show fear or hesitation.


#12
Kynare

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You could just make up a reason. I mean, it's not like Riordan is the only one who can injure the thing. The Warden could have sliced/pinned/scorched up its wings more than that during the course of the battle before it had a chance to regenerate. Or debilitated its limbs. At the point of the killing blow, I'd assume the Archdemon is already pretty beaten up. Even if it wanted to flee in front of its entire army, there's plenty of reasons you could come up with why it couldn't.



#13
ahvyh

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It's because Riordan injured his wing really badly. At least that was the clear answer for me why the Archdemon would stay on the Tower and not fly somewhere up in the sky far from the Wardens (the darkspawn were a lot more than the army so it would have been an almost sure victory). After all that's why Riordan was searching for a high point in the city so that he can jump on the Archdemon without him expecting. Or so I believe, of course.


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#14
Aren

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The AD is capable to fly during the battle with the Warden,his injuries were already regenerated due to the taint,basically this is one of the property of the taint (at least it works on Ogre)
 Darkspawn aren't that strong,unless they are the elite or disciples.....
Anyway the problem was that Urthemiel was kind of a moron imho,the army at his disposal weren't so big like the previous blights,because this archdemon wasn't awakened by the horde but more likely by a magister.

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#15
Illegitimus

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Why the heck would Urthemiel run away from two wardens?  When is it going to have a better chance to kill the last wardens in Ferelden?  



#16
Tidus

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Illegitiomus,Excellent question.. Why would he? Like you said, kill both wardens and I will add by doing so he would conquer  all of Ferelden before moving on to the next country.



#17
German Soldier

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Why the heck would Urthemiel run away from two wardens?  When is it going to have a better chance to kill the last wardens in Ferelden?  

Because the important thing to let the blight contnue is his survival,it doesn't matter if he is there or not he can mindcontrol the horde from every place,why he should be so moronic and fight on the front line?

 

Illegitiomus,Excellent question.. Why would he? Like you said, kill both wardens and I will add by doing so he would conquer  all of Ferelden before moving on to the next country.

It wasn't an excellent question it was stupid,an Archdemon don't need to be in battle to control the horde,during his victory at Ostagar he was not even there.

He his invincible if he hide himself into the deeproads and use the darksapwn because ultimatley it doesn't matter if he lose or not the blight will continue



#18
Tidus

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I suspect the  AD  could have been with the horde in Ostagar but,didn't show its self-much like brigade commanders do-they're safely tucked in their bunkers barking orders to their battalion commanders...

 

One thing we do know..He was  seen in the Deep Trench area of the Deep Road.



#19
Illegitimus

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Because the important thing to let the blight contnue is his survival,it doesn't matter if he is there or not he can mindcontrol the horde from every place,why he should be so moronic and fight on the front line?

 

 

But how boring would that be for him?  What real reason does he have to rampage over the land except the visceral pleasure it gives him?



#20
Bhryaen

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But how boring would that be for him?  What real reason does he have to rampage over the land except the visceral pleasure it gives him?

Visceral pleasure is visceral pleasure. Apparently hard for an evildoer (or a visceral creature) to resist. And I'm not convinced Archy is such an intelligent creature. Visceral sounds more accurate. "Darkspawn Chronicles" gave it "thoughts," but they were in parentheses as if they were just general commands, not worded commentary to its troops. Plus they were fairly vaguely cast out messages to all the minions rather than direct tactical orders sent general-style. No, I don't even consider the DS DLC particularly credible as a source: it's even way more jokey than "Mark of the Assassin" given it's only there to let you kill everyone you spend so many hours getting to know in the real game... which I never found fun as an idea. (I watched a YT vid of someone else doing it.)

 

This is why I don't consider its motivations based on "how boring" it considers something or having "too much ego not to stay," as was mentioned earlier. If we impart that sort of intelligence to Archy, there's no reason for it not to have pretty much handled everything without even a horde of minions. It could've wiped out Denerim single-handedly before the Wardens even survived Ostagar- could've torched Ostagar for that matter- all done. Or it could've located the wardens at the camp and come itself to torch them then and there without an army or Irving or whoever else to fend off as well. But it could only send a bunch of shrieks? Once? It obviously sensed them. Instead Archy functions more like a wolf pack member, getting confidence with greater pack numbers and the continued successful exploits of the pack itself- and then, when the rest of the pack goes in like pawns, it ultimately just goes in "rampage"-style when it feels ready. Which it did. That is, after all, more like what happened. This doesn't make it any less dangerous, just not an intelligent adversary.

 

This is also why I agree with the OP's incredulity about its behavior in the end fight. If it can fly, and it's getting near the end of its health... it does have a way out, yes? What does it care if it "looks bad?" Just get out! Any wounded animal would do the same. It doesn't take a genius to not die. There's no honor code among darkspawn. The wardens wouldn't be able to do anything about it other than with archery and spells- and only for so long before it would be out of range. Then it could heal back up and and return as necessary while its minions kept the wardens busy or maybe killed them in the meantime. Why was dying a martyr to its cause more a show of intelligence? It wouldn't do that.

 

So maybe it can't fly after all and thus Riordan didn't die in vain. This would seem more in keeping with having had the whole Riordan sequence at all. Or was Riordan's effort for nothing other than to locate Achy temporarily to the fort (just long enough for the wardens to arrive)? It can really just heal back up? I never noticed it regenerating- nor any other darkspawn. In that YT video the player had to do the end fight three times because Archy kept dying too quickly to dog bites. If it really were able to fly again, then why bother staying on top of the fort after healing, particularly when wardens were around? Prior to that it was getting "visceral pleasure" torching the city, no? That's exactly what it was doing and exactly what we would legitimately expect it to keep doing. So it remaining on the fort works better only if its wing is injured and it can't fly... Except that it does fly... as we saw... Riordan died for nothing. It would've made more sense if all it could do at that point was sort of jump around from place to place with one wing tucked up- thus stuck on top of the tower- but it actually flew straight up high enough to disappear into the red sky and then came down strong and ready to keep scrapping all over the place- even right in front of ballistas, being the intelligent, tactical leader it is.

 

I think the devs wanted to make Archy too injured to fly- hence Riordan's death and Archy's spiraling free-fall to Fort Drakon's roof- but they also didn't want a static dragon fight for the end battle, and they didn't have the animation skills yet (or perhaps time) to create a convincingly jumping, injured dragon, so they settled with going anti-static while creating a supposed-to-be-unable-to-fly flying Archy. It's no different than the dissonance created by the protagonist's crew having slews of healing potions while no one else uses them at all- no enemy and not even friendly NPCs. You just sort of roll with it and enjoy the scenery.

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't fault the devs for how they handled it or balk at them in some asinine diffidence. They did what they felt they could, it seems. Graphics engines were limited back then. They certainly made a cool-looking dragon with great animation regardless. And it was a fun enough fight, particularly with all the random spawnie mobs and having to avoid Archy's unavoidable breath blasts. It's just that technically the fight didn't fit so well the narrative they seemed to be cultivating, so there's a legitimate criticism to be made if you're going to bother making it. Anyway I like DAI's dragon-fights better. :)