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DAMP dlc vs Mass Effect 3 MP dlc - a compartive anaylsis....


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#101
orange_apples

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My biggest problem is that DAIMP is designed to be an MMO without the padding. Yes people like boss raids, but that's because those are a different experience to the fetch quest. People go through the fetch quests, regional quests and other plot stuff to get ready for raids. People don't grind dungeon bosses. Okay, some people do. But there is normally enough variety where you can get to a decent level without grinding a single location.

 

I can't really do this MMO style grind for better gear/stats/progression that it seems BW designed this game for a few reasons:

1. I don't like MMOs

2. I can't progress past Perilous. I survive on Perilous fine enough, but I have 6 promotions. I am useless on Nightmare. I'm the one who pops into a Nightmare lobby and dies to 1 arrow. I don't have the MMO mindset to grind perilous until I have 30/30/30

3. Because I haven't put in the 300 minimum hours for MP progression I don't have enough crafting materials to get purple gear for all my characters. Heck, some are still wearing grey.

 

 

Actually, now that I think about it, DAISP is designed to be an MMO without the boss raids. That's where all the story and fetch quests are. Almost as if when we get bored of the questing we go to MP to do some raiding, and when we are done with raiding we go back to questing. That's good on paper, except in an MMO this is all being done on the same character so all your playtime goes towards getting ready for that raid. Nothing is wasted. Here, anything you do in SP doesn't help your MP and vice versa.

 

Sometimes it feels like they built 2 okay games that are both 75% great and 25% meh. There is enough great to be better than most other games on the market, but also a lot of wasted potential.

 

 

I actually start to wonder if Andromeda is even going to be released by Bioware... if they have to lock threads rather than spend the minimal resources responding... the choice to end support and the like may not be ill will, but the last attempt of a sinking ship to keep itself afloat.

 

Bioware is going to do just fine. They've shipped amazing game after amazing game. Just let PS3 and 360 go already.



#102
Jay P

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I actually start to wonder if Andromeda is even going to be released by Bioware... if they have to lock threads rather than spend the minimal resources responding... the choice to end support and the like may not be ill will, but the last attempt of a sinking ship to keep itself afloat.

Satire?

Because I hope this is satire. I get you're an old gen player, and bitter about the lack of support, but no, they aren't closing their doors.

#103
CitizenThom

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Not satire, just speculation. If you can spare the effort, most people do in fact spare the effort. When you can't spare the effort, even if you want to, you don't spare the effort. I see a sinking ship, we'll see two or three years from now if Bioware is still in business.



#104
Jay P

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Not satire, just speculation. If you can spare the effort, most people do in fact spare the effort. When you can't spare the effort, even if you want to, you don't spare the effort. I see a sinking ship, we'll see two or three years from now if Bioware is still in business.

Bioware, and of course EA, are businesses.

Business that are making money don't close.

Mass effect andromeda is going to make a lot of money.

Dragon age 4, while probably not as much as andromeda, will still make a lot of money.

They have a secret IP, who knows how that will go, but I wouldn't bet against it.

Maybe 5 or 10 years into the future, if the new IP fails AND dragon age falls off AND they destroy mass effect, maybe.

But they won't. Because, despite some bad decisions, they do make awesome games.

#105
ruggie

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They made 1 awesome dragon afe and from what igather 2 awesome mass effects

#106
Jay P

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They made 1 awesome dragon afe and from what igather 2 awesome mass effects


2 awesome mass effect games. 1 pretty good one.

1 awesome SP RPG they stretched into an MMO.

I skipped DA2, and if you cut out all the silly fetch quests from DA3, you have a pretty good game. And DA1 was petty great.

Most developers would kill to have that track record.

#107
Angelus_de_Mortiel

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2 awesome mass effect games. 1 pretty good one.

1 awesome SP RPG they stretched into an MMO.

I skipped DA2, and if you cut out all the silly fetch quests from DA3, you have a pretty good game. And DA1 was petty great.

Most developers would kill to have that track record.

 

Don't forget they also one of very few developers making games off the very lucrative Star Wars license. KotOR, KotOR 2 (made by Obsidian under the purview of BioWare), and SWTOR have all been pretty financially successful. There is also the track record built by the Baldur's Gate IP and Neverwinter Nights. Shame Atari had to snatch the D&D IP from BioWare (which was then sold to Perfect World), because I am quite sure BioWare would have done a thousand times better making the P2W Neverwinter MMO.


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#108
Jay P

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Don't forget they also one of very few developers making games off the very lucrative Star Wars license. KotOR, KotOR 2 (made by Obsidian under the purview of BioWare), and SWTOR have all been pretty financially successful. There is also the track record built by the Baldur's Gate IP and Neverwinter Nights. Shame Atari had to snatch the D&D IP from BioWare (which was then sold to Perfect World), because I am quite sure BioWare would have done a thousand times better making the P2W Neverwinter MMO.

I agree.

I was just trying to focus on their most recent games.

Knights of the old republic 1 was fantastic. As was baldurs gate 2.

Bioware is assuredly a lucrative division for EA (maybe not the old republic. Not sure what economic model that's under).

Bioware isn't going anywhere. The question is will the quality be there?

I have high hopes for mass effect andromeda now that they aren't tethered to the reapers. And I don't think I'm going to be disappointed.

Edit: I can't remember if Bioware developed or just published BG2. I think they developed and black isle published? It's been so long, I don't remember.

#109
Angelus_de_Mortiel

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I agree.

I was just trying to focus on their most recent games.

Knights of the old republic 1 was fantastic. As was baldurs gate 2.

Bioware is assuredly a lucrative division for EA (maybe not the old republic. Not sure what economic model that's under).

Bioware isn't going anywhere. The question is will the quality be there?

I have high hopes for mass effect andromeda now that they aren't tethered to the reapers. And I don't think I'm going to be disappointed.

Edit: I can't remember if Bioware developed or just published BG2. I think they developed and black isle published? It's been so long, I don't remember.

 

Yes. Black Isle was a publisher under kind of part of the Interplay conglomerate before Interplay tanked, as was BioWare.

 

Honestly, my suspicions on Andromeda is that BioWare is going to tell the story that was rumoured they intended for the original trilogy with the Dark Energy creatures that consumed stars (hinted by the mission with the Tali's team in ME2). Totally my own suspicions, and that story bit I think was just a rumour anyway, but it's a interesting thought.

On topic, I think ME3MP had an easy time with updates working with a familiar system (Unreal Engine) they used for two previous games. I do believe they had every intention of providing more support to DAIMP (and may likely still offer MP updates after this next one, however unlikely that may be), but I really believe it was a situation of not properly planning out resources ahead of time. Luke, as amazing job as he has done, should have really been the pointman from the beginning. While he's not really a community manager, he is effectively manning that role right now. But I digress.

All of that seen, the biggest failure of the MP game was the Destruction DLC debacle. That whole situation was the single largest hit to the playerbase on all consoles, a hit to this day which DAIMP has not recovered (although it has definitely been rebounding). That seriously killed like half if not more of the community. I'm not one to dwell on "what ifs" in past errors, but I do wonder what the game would be like today had either the Destruction DLC not been pushed, the Key Glitch been squashed early, or at least had the devs communicated more during that time. I only hope that BioWare hits the ground running with Andromeda, with the experiences (good and bad) from DAIMP and ME3MP fresh in their minds.



#110
MagicalMaster

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I don't agree with you here. I almost exclusively PUG and I can't tell you how often after a successful perilous run people want to ratchet it up to Nightmare. It happens often.


Very different experiences I guess -- only seen that happen once in Perilous PUGs on the PC (out of easily over 100 Perilous PUGs, likely more).

There's a measuring tone in your posts that I believe is not intentional. I was trying to point out that, perhaps without your (i) luck with items (ii) good fortune at starting after the armor buff and (iii) your MadSkillz, others may not share your viewpoint. You are challenging other viewpoints based upon your rather specialized circumstance. A circumstance you concede is far from universal.


Not entirely sure what you mean by "measuring tone" in this case -- likely annoyance with people (not you) insisting "NM is impossible without 80+/80+/80+ stats" or "Can't do Perilous without a bunch of promotions" leaking through. I get that for that some/most people that may be true. But I hate to see new players discouraged by that "advice" -- because in other games it is actually literally impossible to complete certain content without grinding out a certain number of stats. And I hate to see people trumpet "Promotions > teamwork, promotions > skill" which they seem to do a lot.

I actually don't think my luck with items is that exceptional -- I didn't get any crazy awesome items early on and at this point I've gotten multiples of more than sufficient weapons. It seems hard to say I've been "lucky" with 2H Dragon weapons if I've salvaged a dozen, y'know? You'd have to be insanely unlucky to not have at least one in far less time than I've played.

The good fortune from starting after the armor buff...is the same fortune as everyone else who starts at this point? If you mean my first experiences were better than what people originally had, sure...same was true of many things from what I hear (everything from armor to store chests to enemy tuning to game-breaking bugs). But everyone can have that experience now -- it's not like I played during a time where things were overbuffed and then nerfed after I managed to "break into" the game.

And yes, I'm significantly above the average skill level of most people playing this game and that does alter my experience -- which is very observable when playing with some other friends who convinced me to try it in the first place or people I lured in after liking it (incidentally, most of those have no interest in Nightmare at all or won't have any interest for a very long time). It's not that I think everyone can do Nightmare with 0 promotions. I just don't want to discourage people by constantly telling them that nothing matters in this game outside of pure XP grinding for promotions.

628k gold in a month and change and four superb HoK rings and every other superb stat ring? Your experience is extremely far removed from the average player.


Which I did specifically point out, mind you. But...here's the thing: whether that 625k gold was gathered in one month or six doesn't change the drop rates as far as I know. Anyone who spent that much gold would have roughly equivalent gear (the whole reason Dragonracer had her thread was in large part due to her bad luck being so unusual). And I don't even know how much gold she spent -- it could have been only 400k or something for all I know.

Based on the revolving door of players who try to jump into Nightmare and get one or two shot before abandoning, I'd say a good percentage...


I did say "halfway interested" and not "Oh, there's that NM thing, I wonder what it is." I meant that in the sense of being serious enough to have reasonable gear, high level characters, enough skill/promotions to be quite comfortable in Perilous, and so on. Those players still may not be capable of NM for whatever reasons...but that's a far cry from joining, getting two shot, and then peacing out.

DA2 was okay, took far more flack than it deserved. Me3 had some very good parts and some really bad parts.


Agreed to both. DA2 had some excellent ideas but poor execution (and/or not enough time/budget/manpower). Ruggie, I'll make sure Golems/Constructs are never in any RPG boss fight again because I'd hate to upset your fragile psyche.

ME 3 MP also has a much longer learning curve, and demands a higher level of reaction and skill at higher levels, making for a longer play life. I'm not saying this to be judgy - just being honest. I played bronze for months before I could reasonably hack Silver, and I needed help from BSN to learn to play Gold. While I can now play effectively enough to rationalize PuGing Platinum, I don't consider it worth the headaches because of the high difficulty.


Not sure what to say here -- my experience is the complete opposite. Moving from Bronze to Silver was extremely quick and Gold didn't take much longer. Of course, I was used to playing Insanity in SP and Hard in FPS games so you could theoretically argue that I went through the learning curve before ever starting ME3MP. I mean, people posted videos of soloing Gold with Avenger assault rifles. The fact was that your survivability was far more linked to you as a player due to the regenerating (infinite) shields, the cover mechanic, and the fact that shield bonuses/increases tended to be extremely minor for most characters on higher difficulties.

DAMP, on the other hand, actually ties your survivability far more to your stats...which is how RPGs usually work. What matters is not how good you are at dodging but how good your character is at dodging. I certainly agree that getting something like Heal on Kill often drastically and fundamentally alters your survivability (and I do think that specifically is a bad thing, to be clear, as life prior to HoK is far too painful for new players). That said, I also think I've had to react far faster (see things like Demon Commander's teleport attack) to dodge attacks, break CCs, and so on in DAMP than I ever did in ME3MP.

I mean, I can survive in Nightmare on many classes with 30ish promotions or less (I mean, that's literally only like being 20% stronger or so) while others struggle with 80+/80+/80+. In ME3MP, I'd be the one soloing Gold with an Avenger while they struggled in a full Gold group with Rare weapons. DAMP is specifically designed (again, like most RPGs) so that better gear, more levels, and/or (in DA:I's case) more promotions can compensate for less skill. There's no such mechanic in ME3MP.

Which is "good" in the sense that you can't use promotions as an excuse and "bad" in the sense that a friend of mine who's worse and has reached his/her physical skill limits (or close to it) cannot "progress" and eventually see the tougher stuff.

2. I can't progress past Perilous. I survive on Perilous fine enough, but I have 6 promotions. I am useless on Nightmare. I'm the one who pops into a Nightmare lobby and dies to 1 arrow. I don't have the MMO mindset to grind perilous until I have 30/30/30
3. Because I haven't put in the 300 minimum hours for MP progression I don't have enough crafting materials to get purple gear for all my characters. Heck, some are still wearing grey.


2. What class(es) are you playing? The thing to keep in mind is that the game isn't designed to be lone wolfed -- if you were playing an Archer, for example, then it's expected you have a tank drawing the attention of the mobs or shielding you...or a mage providing Barriers/CC. You're not supposed to be eating arrows to the face on Nightmare as an Archer (not saying you were playing an Archer and doing that but that's something I've seen people complain about in the past). And 30/30/30 means nothing -- being exceedingly generous, that'd mean at most like 30% more survivability...so if you were getting 1 shot by arrows before you'd still be getting two shot at 30/30/30.

Now, I completely understand that most PUGs have no interest in, y'know, actually working together and complementing each other's classes/playstyles...but that's how the game is designed.

3. I had full purple armor for all characters well before the 200 hour mark, let alone 300. And that's with wasting mats on crafting the blue armors to improve my loot chances from chests. Yes, there's an element of grind to the game, no question about it. But it's not nearly as bad as people often make it out to be. You can *choose* to spend time to grind for promotions to compensate for lack of skill and/or teamwork...but it isn't actually required by the game.

Sometimes it feels like they built 2 okay games that are both 75% great and 25% meh. There is enough great to be better than most other games on the market, but also a lot of wasted potential.


I haven't actually played the SP much (the party controls annoyed the hell out of me) but I wouldn't be surprised if your general impression was pretty much right on the mark. I think a lot of people expected DA:I to be DA the MMO but due to backlash over parts of DA2 that plan (if it existed) was scrapped. Then they broke apart the single player and multiplayer stuff and turned it into the campaign and DAMP.

#111
Domiel Angelus

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Don't forget they also one of very few developers making games off the very lucrative Star Wars license. KotOR, KotOR 2 (made by Obsidian under the purview of BioWare), and SWTOR have all been pretty financially successful. There is also the track record built by the Baldur's Gate IP and Neverwinter Nights. Shame Atari had to snatch the D&D IP from BioWare (which was then sold to Perfect World), because I am quite sure BioWare would have done a thousand times better making the P2W Neverwinter MMO.

 

You missed Jade Empire on there too :P Even if it wasn't commercially successful its still an amazing game to play through, its also one of the first successes they had with same-sex romances (Although there are no strictly 'gay' romance options).