128 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Artifice]

It just freaks me out. Yeah, I'd probably be happier if I just take their word for it that it's a happily ever after, full of peace and love and perfect understanding. But it promises peace and perfect understanding by genetically rewriting every sentient being in the galaxy without their consent. The implication of that going badly is already there. My imagination does the rest.

[Former_Fiend]

Personally I'm a transhumanist; I fully support the use of technology to improve ourselves and believe that's the future of human evolution. If I had someone explain to me exactly what the synthesis process did and found the results to be beneficial, I'd willingly go through the process.

 

However, I also believe that decision should be up to each individual. The fact that it is imposed on all living creatures across the galaxy without their consent, whether they'd want it or not, whether they're ready for it or not, does cross ethical lines for me.

 

Also gets freaky when you remember that 99% of the Milky Way is unexplored by current galactic civilization, but by all indications the whole thing has been affected. There are stone age civilizations that now have some level of cybernetic enhancement that they can't possibly understand. The yahg have undergone synthesis; did all their natural aggression and desire to dominate go away? The implications of that are, at best, disturbing. 

 

The whole thing is a mess. A big enough mess that I'm willing to commit genocide against the geth to avoid it, and I like the geth.

[Dantriges]

You will also understand teh apple youare eating and his desire to be eaten so you can excrete his seeds. When you cut down a tree you will understand that the tree doesn´t want that.

[LinksOcarina]

Personally I'm a transhumanist; I fully support the use of technology to improve ourselves and believe that's the future of human evolution. If I had someone explain to me exactly what the synthesis process did and found the results to be beneficial, I'd willingly go through the process.

 

However, I also believe that decision should be up to each individual. The fact that it is imposed on all living creatures across the galaxy without their consent, whether they'd want it or not, whether they're ready for it or not, does cross ethical lines for me.

 

Also gets freaky when you remember that 99% of the Milky Way is unexplored by current galactic civilization, but by all indications the whole thing has been affected. There are stone age civilizations that now have some level of cybernetic enhancement that they can't possibly understand. The yahg have undergone synthesis; did all their natural aggression and desire to dominate go away? The implications of that are, at best, disturbing. 

 

The whole thing is a mess. A big enough mess that I'm willing to commit genocide against the geth to avoid it, and I like the geth.

 

I guess I am unwilling to commit genocide, id rather take the risk and see what happens.

 

In the end, its still an interesting conversation, perhaps the most interesting part of all is that each choice has ethical problems to it, which would imply ethically being an ideal or moral human is impossible, otherwise it will be all for naught. 

[LinksOcarina]

But Synthesis isn't much of a role-playing decision. Obviously, you can have a Shepard who chooses or rejects Synthesis for whatever roleplaying reason, but BioWare made it pretty obvious that Synthesis was the choice they endorsed just by how they implemented their mechanics (high EMS). BioWare essetially made Synthesis the optimal outcome, the kind of decision that they believe any sensible person should go for. It's like the decisions in KotOR. You can be good or evil, but the moral of the story remains constant. Same with Mass Effect; you can choose the different options, but that doesn't change BioWare's agenda. They still think Synthesis is right, and I think that this particular view is so off base that it makes the ending bad.

 

It's another issue that Synthesis overwrites BioWare's previous intentions in ME2. That point isn't so subjective. Were it not for some interpretation within some of ME3's smaller arcs, the ending would be completely non sequitur and it's very existence required the writers to ignore some crucial aspects of the previous games. It forced them to manufacture an entire conflict between Synthetics and Organics that apparently is a universal constant (even after the Geth/Quarian conflic is resolved). I think the ending is bad because it required so much revisionism and what is essentially God just to be the least bit viable and the result it trampeled over its predecessors to achieve isn't very good at best and morally off base at worst.

 

What previous intentions exactly?

 

The entire synthetic/organic conflict was always a permeation of the plot. It was part of the game since the first game, in the attitudes with the Geth, the opinions of Tali and the Quarians, even some side missions involving rogue or confused AI. Mass Effect 2 had a whole DLC about the forcing of Organic and Synthetic lifeforms together (again echoing the lack of choice) and the Geth/Quarian conflict grew into a major part of the sub-plot, as were the hilariously bad human-reaper creature. 

 

Do you mean the dark energy stuff, which was talked about as an ending but never fully greenlight? Even Drew K sated that one was not fully fleshed out or confirmed, just an idea they were toying with. He also stated that it would likely not be an adequate ending either. 

 

 

 

"I find it funny that fans end up hearing a couple things they like about it and in their minds they add in all the details they specifically want," he explained. "It's like vapourware - vapourware is always perfect, anytime someone talks about the new greatest game. It's perfect until it comes out. I'm a little weary about going into too much detail because, whatever we came up with, it probably wouldn't be what people want it to be."

 

Also, BioWare making Synthesis the ideal outcome is arguably authorial intent of the ending itself but it only matters to BioWare that it was the ideal ending, whereas the fanbase tends to choose their own ideal ending, like the breath scene.

 

I personally do think authorial intent is kind of important into understanding their presentation, but the fact that there are diverging ending paths and everyone has an opinion on it, and the fact that the original plan was to keep it vague, I really don't believe it matters which ending BioWare favored at this point. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I would think so...but then you have sub groups of pretentious idiots who think they are more intelligent than you because they picked the other two...then again, that was mostly the Synthesis crowd.

 

There are 50% of us "pretentious idiots" who chose Control or Synthesis. 25% chose Synthesis (the happy ending).

 

Such states cannot be ignored.

 

But the ME3 ending left the MW in such a mess where it would take literally hundreds to a thousand years and hundreds of quadrillions of credits to rebuild the mass relay system in all scenarios except Control and Synthesis where you have reaper help. But  since 50% chose destroy you can't make either one of those canon, and you can't make destroy canon either, so we leave and go to Andromeda before the end of the war to avoid the entire mess. It takes us  maybe 500 years to travel there via our newly discovered drives that don't require discharging in space or a worm hole. We live in cryo until arrival.

 

Now we play out our story in Andromeda then we get curious as to our roots  in the MW, right? So  we want to at least communicate via QEC. And voila! Since synthesis is inevitable as the final state of evolution, by the time we get ready to do this, the MW has reached it on its own regardless of whichever ending everyone chose, thus solving the ending mess.

[Former_Fiend]

There are 50% of us "pretentious idiots" who chose Control or Synthesis. 25% chose Synthesis (the happy ending).

 

Such states cannot be ignored.

 

But the ME3 ending left the MW in such a mess where it would take literally hundreds to a thousand years and hundreds of quadrillions of credits to rebuild the mass relay system in all scenarios except Control and Synthesis where you have reaper help. But  since 50% chose destroy you can't make either one of those canon, and you can't make destroy canon either, so we leave and go to Andromeda before the end of the war to avoid the entire mess. It takes us  maybe 500 years to travel there via our newly discovered drives that don't require discharging in space or a worm hole. We live in cryo until arrival.

 

Now we play out our story in Andromeda then we get curious as to our roots  in the MW, right? So  we want to at least communicate via QEC. And voila! Since synthesis is inevitable as the final state of evolution, by the time we get ready to do this, the MW has reached it on its own regardless of whichever ending everyone chose, thus solving the ending mess.

 

I think the words you're looking for are "should not be ignored", not "cannot/can't". They absolutely can ignore any or all of the endings if they so chose.

 

Would it be a good idea? That's a debatable question. As heated over arguments regarding which ending is "better", the majority agrees that ethically, morally, and narratively, they're all flawed options.

 

If Bioware were to have spent the last three years coming up with something better, or at least something functional, and decided to override the endings with it, well, yeah, a lot of people are going to get pissed about 'their decisions not being respected', but once that anger wore off and cooler heads prevailed(I'm an optimist), most people would look at it and say, "you know what, yeah, this is better." 

[DoomsdayDevice]

We would be digitized hybirds

Nah, we would be uploaded minds living in a virtual reality inside of a Reaper, our DNA as as its lifeblood; our genetic qualities harnessed.

[Helios969]

There are 50% of us "pretentious idiots" who chose Control or Synthesis. 25% chose Synthesis (the happy ending).

 

Such states cannot be ignored.

 

But the ME3 ending left the MW in such a mess where it would take literally hundreds to a thousand years and hundreds of quadrillions of credits to rebuild the mass relay system in all scenarios except Control and Synthesis where you have reaper help. But  since 50% chose destroy you can't make either one of those canon, and you can't make destroy canon either, so we leave and go to Andromeda before the end of the war to avoid the entire mess. It takes us  maybe 500 years to travel there via our newly discovered drives that don't require discharging in space or a worm hole. We live in cryo until arrival.

 

Now we play out our story in Andromeda then we get curious as to our roots  in the MW, right? So  we want to at least communicate via QEC. And voila! Since synthesis is inevitable as the final state of evolution, by the time we get ready to do this, the MW has reached it on its own regardless of whichever ending everyone chose, thus solving the ending mess.

Hmmm, I don't recall any of the surveys breaking down that way.  The ones I recall were about 70% destroy, 20% control, & 10% synthesis.  Regardless, there will be no canonized ending.  That's the whole reasoning behind moving the series to Andromeda.  A reboot of the original trilogy is more likely than a canonized ending to the existing trilogy.

[jones81381]

Incidentally, I'm under the impression that the ending of ME3 was not the originally planned ending but when the original ending was leaked relatively late in development they scrambled to come up with another ending and so we got that garbage 3 different colored lights ending.

[Dantriges]

If this post is correct, time issues were a general problem affecting the whole game, not the leak. https://www.reddit.c...3s_development/

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hmmm, I don't recall any of the surveys breaking down that way.  The ones I recall were about 70% destroy, 20% control, & 10% synthesis.  Regardless, there will be no canonized ending.  That's the whole reasoning behind moving the series to Andromeda.  A reboot of the original trilogy is more likely than a canonized ending to the existing trilogy.

 

In voluntary online surveys maybe, but Bioware's statistics showed 25% chose synthesis, and about 25% chose control - the statistics that sent the packet of information to Origins, through XBox Live, and through the PS network to Bioware. I don't feel like looking through two year old posts for the graphic.

 

The data also showed that 37% saved the Geth, and only 25% saved the Quarians. Also 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

[Arisugawa]

In voluntary online surveys maybe, but Bioware's statistics showed 25% chose synthesis, and about 25% chose control - the statistics that sent the packet of information to Origins, through XBox Live, and through the PS network to Bioware. I don't feel like looking through two year old posts for the graphic.

 

The data also showed that 37% saved the Geth, and only 25% saved the Quarians. Also 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

 

Which would be the norm if someone was playing without a Mass Effect 2 world state where Wrex was alive, and you met the conditions for Legion and Tali to make brokering peace a possibility.

 

The number of people who probably played ME3 without importing, or that ME3 was their first Mass Effect title based on the pre-release hype, has to be taken into account when these numbers are evaluated.

[HK-90210]

Then your Shepard was indoctrinated. Congratulations.

 

As for whether that will have any effect on Andromeda, my guess is: probably not.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

If "synthesis" is incorporated, then Bioware can ki$$ my money goodbye.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well yeah? Imagine the three-way civil war if they made an ending canon.

 

(Also Synthesis, literally the worst ending.))

 

Disagree since I picked Synthesis - 1) I'm okay with the idea of Singularity and 2) it beats the options of having everyone in the galaxy die or killing off my synthetic friends. If you want to argue about the lack of a good explanation for how Synthesis works, that's another matter separate from the idea itself, which I found far more appealing than the other options, given my affection for Legion and EDI.

 

At any rate, I read a lot of Asimov and older sci-fi when I was younger and watched episodes of the Twilight Zone with nice robots, so I don't have this seemingly innate fear of robots or synthetic life that a lot of people seem to have. It sure seems like a lot of people think that any AI that we might create or discover is basically going to be Skynet (Terminator is still one of my favorite movies, but it never really inspired any AI-related phobias).

 

My opinion is that as we inch ever closer to (maybe) creating true AIs, if you actively teach an AI about right and wrong as you would a child, then it will adopt your morality (assuming that you don't try to enslave it or lie to it or treat it unfairly). One example is the Machine on Person of Interest, which learned to value what it was taught (explaining the whole story would take far too long - just understand that the Machine embraces humanity, while an AI named Samaritan was essentially taught the opposite).

 

Sure, things could go horribly wrong, but any given human child could end up being a serial killer (or worse) despite your best efforts. I think people ought to watch shows like Person of Interest (where you see the potential for both good and evil expressed in different AIs) or Humans where the AIs that have achieved sentience are complex beings who are very, very human-like (I watched S1 of the English adaptation on AMC).

 

But back to ME:A and the effects of the ME3 endings in general: I believe that events in ME:A start out concurrent with events in ME3, not 300 years later, so what happens in the Milky Way after the endings in ME3 will have absolutely nothing to do with what we experience in ME:A. Besides, the endings are so wildly divergent that I don't think you can satisfactorily cover all the possibilities by just throwing in a short monologue about it all. I honestly don't expect to see anything about the Milky Way's ultimate fate(s), not even in a slideshow a la the Extended Cut endings for ME3.

 

Would it be nice if they showed what happened? Yes, but again, I just don't think it relates to what's going on in ME:A and don't expect it to see anything about it.

[Ahglock]

Disagree since I picked Synthesis - 1) I'm okay with the idea of Singularity and 2) it beats the options of having everyone in the galaxy die or killing off my synthetic friends. If you want to argue about the lack of a good explanation for how Synthesis works, that's another matter separate from the idea itself, which I found far more appealing than the other options, given my affection for Legion and EDI.

 

At any rate, I read a lot of Asimov and older sci-fi when I was younger and watched episodes of the Twilight Zone with nice robots, so I don't have this seemingly innate fear of robots or synthetic life that a lot of people seem to have. It sure seems like a lot of people think that any AI that we might create or discover is basically going to be Skynet (Terminator is still one of my favorite movies, but it never really inspired any AI-related phobias).

 

My opinion is that as we inch ever closer to (maybe) creating true AIs, if you actively teach an AI about right and wrong as you would a child, then it will adopt your morality (assuming that you don't try to enslave it or lie to it or treat it unfairly). One example is the Machine on Person of Interest, which learned to value what it was taught (explaining the whole story would take far too long - just understand that the Machine embraces humanity, while an AI named Samaritan was essentially taught the opposite).

 

 

 

I see synthesis as the effective genocide of everyone instead of just one species.  Because it pretty much overwrites everyone.  If it doesn't and they pretty much stay who they are but with metal pieces it did basically nothing and the reapers will eat them in a day or two you minds as well have picked refuse and let people die with dignity at least.  I have no issue with the idea that you could learn to live in peace with AI, I watched start trek and whether its Data as a AI or synthetics with the borg and 7of9 it was a fine story.  What would happen in reality who knows.  But overwriting a persons minds and turning them into someone else is IMO the same as killing them. 

[Broganisity]

While I standby Destroy as the best of the four endings, I still think that Andromeda should canonize Shepard's death in the Suicide Mission. Throw us a curve-ball with a surprise fifth ending where the Galaxy just wasn't able to unite to fight the Reapers, and instead managed to flee by 'X' means.

[Dubozz]

Sorry OP, synthesis is for misguided fools and half-toasters. Mark my words, there will be zero referances about synthesis in the next game.

[Helios969]

In voluntary online surveys maybe, but Bioware's statistics showed 25% chose synthesis, and about 25% chose control - the statistics that sent the packet of information to Origins, through XBox Live, and through the PS network to Bioware. I don't feel like looking through two year old posts for the graphic.

 

The data also showed that 37% saved the Geth, and only 25% saved the Quarians. Also 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

The latter numbers sound about right from what I recall so I'll take your word on it.  The only issue I have with Bioware's data is they don't reveal their methodology.  Was it collected from game owners' 1st playthroughs only or every game finished through the data collection process.  I want to say the former though I'm not really sure...I do seem to recall the number of femSheps was really low and being really surprised...6% or something like that.  And the 67% who cured the genophage with Wreav in charge tells me there were a whole bunch of newbs playing ME for the first time.  It'd be great if someone had that chart readily available.  Additionally, generating the numbers from gameplay data doesn't necessarily tell us whether the 50% who chose control/synthesis actually prefer it.  During various playthroughs I've made all decisions, but it says nothing of my preferences looking at the raw numbers.

[countofhell]

I think it's safe to assume from the dev post about Andromeda taking place many many years after Shepard's story and the teaser video, humanity has expanded to the Andromeda galaxy the 'old fashioned way' and flown there themselves. As such, will all the humans have that synthesis effect if I chose it as my ending of ME3? Will any returning races have that effect? Hell, for that matter will Andromeda be importing anything at all from the previous games? The synthesis ending seems really big to just ignore.

Synthesis might be the best fitting canon ending for the ME3 or how can be explained that the Milky Way's remaining population got highly advanced that even jumping to the neighbor Galaxy is not an obstacle. I'd prefer this rather than escaping with an Ark during the ME3 events.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

It just freaks me out. Yeah, I'd probably be happier if I just take their word for it that it's a happily ever after, full of peace and love and perfect understanding. But it promises peace and perfect understanding by genetically rewriting every sentient being in the galaxy without their consent. The implication of that going badly is already there. My imagination does the rest.

 

My 'fanfiction' take on it is that the catalyst manipulated Shepard into allowing it to turn every living being into husks.

[NM_Che56]

I think it won't matter we are going to leave before the endings. Leaving after would automatically erase synthesis as a possibility.

I was so much hoping to remain in our galaxy with a canonized destroy but I guess BW wants a fresh galaxy to shape.

it doesn't erase it as a possibility.  It just means that the new story arc won't be affected by the trilogy.

[NM_Che56]

Sorry OP, synthesis is for misguided fools and half-toasters. Mark my words, there will be zero referances about synthesis in the next game.

Their may not be any reference to any endings.

[NM_Che56]

In voluntary online surveys maybe, but Bioware's statistics showed 25% chose synthesis, and about 25% chose control - the statistics that sent the packet of information to Origins, through XBox Live, and through the PS network to Bioware. I don't feel like looking through two year old posts for the graphic.

 

The data also showed that 37% saved the Geth, and only 25% saved the Quarians. Also 67% cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

And all of this mean that it's all 100% player choice and 0% "the right way".