41 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Went to the wolves' den last night.  Not the best case for a rogue, IMO since they all have perceptive.  Also it was to annoying to try and retest the first small group of wolves outside the lair since there isn't a good save point nearby that will not drop bandits on your head whenever you load.  But I did try the first encounter a few times, after wasting attempts where Cassandra wouldn't use War Cry or Challenge for no apparent reason.  After restart...

 

Sera Level 7, 5%AP, 5%FlankDmg, +50 health, Reinforced Scout (96), Hat of the Inquisitor (14), Dagger of Faith, Thief Blade.  Follow Cass, Stamina 0.

+Upgraded *Preferred

 

Cass and Solas as other AI characters.  Built like in Matth's preSkyhold thread.

 

FA+->Parry*
TwinFangs->DanceofDeath
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*

 

For the first small group, I just sent the party in with an attack order and stood around.  The AI for the first group is interesting since the wolves won't attack a party member who doesn't attack. So my Inquisitor could be really lazy.

 

Really the main things that contributed to poor performance here were when Cass wouldn't taunt, and when Sera tried to use powers on a slope and would miss.  Otherwise if the AI runs normally, Wolves will mainly be aggro'd on Cass and Sera will only get nipped once or twice, despite them seeing her in cloak.  I did not actually try many variations here.  Sera will Parry the wolf attack if she is in front of them and it is her target.  She might flip targets if she was set to follow herself, but I did not test that.  I will need to see if she can handle the threat from that AI setting.

 

I saved at that point so I could redo the lair fight as many times as I wanted.  Sera was missing 1/3 health, and I switched her flanking ring for 2%HOK.

 

Trouble With Wolves Mini-Boss Fight

 

My 3 man team was pretty poor at doing this fight if I just issued a single command and let them go at it.  I never saw Solas fade step, I think the narrow terrain and obstacles might have been an issue, not sure.  Also the team just is not smart enough to dodge the Terror.  Subsequently, I made it my job to just knock down the terror with CB, SB or PBS and let the team do everything else.

 

FA+->Parry*
TwinFangs->DanceofDeath
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*

 

With the same old L7 build and tactics, basically Sera would end up using a health pot nearly every time.  I didn't think that was too bad considering she started the encounter down 1/3 health and they all have perceptive.  I did not see her use Evade much at all, which would probably be used more by a human player.  Parry is used sometimes, but again I think it will be somewhat limited by following Cass (who target switches fairly rapidly).

 

I tried out a heavy Subterfuge build that looked like this:

 

FA
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*->SS

->EasytoMiss->KO->MercyKilling

 

Really I should have made sure FA was upgraded, although lack of stealth isn't as big a deal in this encounter (compared to more typical enemies).  This build was ok, and the AI miraculously usually left the sleeping wolf alone.  But she still used a health pot typically.  The damage was probably lower, since SS has a longer cooldown than TF.  Since the AI was leaving sleeping targets alone, I figured I didn't need MercyKilling.  I did notice her use Evade one time with this build.

 

FA+
TF
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*
->EasytoMiss->KO

 

This was again, more or less the same as the last two where she would use a health pot.  The damage was fine.  Next I tried a build with the left side of the dagger tree to get spinning blades

 

FA+->BP->UC->SB
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*

 

This build seemed to be really stamina intensive and was not good.  SB probably doesn't make sense this early in the game on an AI character with no on-hit masterwork.

 

I went back to the original build and ran through trying to help a little more, but the result was identical.

 

Next I decided to get Druffy.  Fighting bandits in between was unremarkable since they were in small groups.  I did take Druffy to the Level 12 Fade Rift, despite my team and I being at Level 7.

 

There isn't much to say about that other than you probably want more firepower to do this rift.  Also seems like Druffy is less aggressive here, I don't know if they have changed the behavior to try and close this exploit.  In any case, the Despair Demons are very annoying.  I finished this fight with just Solas and the Inquisitor standing and 1 health pot remaining.  Sera wasn't a big help, which isn't surprising.  Rifts seem to be the worst case for many party members, IMO, since they don't dodge the dangerous bits of ground and take spirit damage, and the composition of this rift is always Despair Demons and Greater Terrors, which the AI is fairly poor against (outside of a few builds).

[Arkey]

Malika's Guard. New 'relic' item put in the patch yesterday. Basically an amulet that acts like a shield for rogues with 30% damage reduction from front plus 20% attack and 10 Dex but at the cost of -50 flanking damage. Min/Max wise it's better to flank with dagger rouges given flank damage and double crit chance but the AI is not great at flanking and the -30% damage reduction from front, like a shield on a warrior, comes before damage is reduced by armor so you should see leaps and bounds in terms of survivability on an AI dagger rogue.

 

Don't ignore all previous advice though. Relic amulet alone won't be enough and gearing and certain abilities on preference will also go a long way. This item just makes it so if Cole takes a Maul to the face it doesn't obliterate him before the AI realizes that that's a bad spot to stand.

 

Downside: This item is located in the Amulet of Power chest in Crestwood village behind the locked door. If you've looted this chest I am not sure if the item is still there. Would love confirmation.

[capn233]

Malika's Guard. New 'relic' item put in the patch yesterday. Basically an amulet that acts like a shield for rogues with 30% damage reduction from front plus 20% attack and 10 Dex but at the cost of -50 flanking damage. Min/Max wise it's better to flank with dagger rouges given flank damage and double crit chance but the AI is not great at flanking and the -30% damage reduction from front, like a shield on a warrior, comes before damage is reduced by armor so you should see leaps and bounds in terms of survivability on an AI dagger rogue.

 

Don't ignore all previous advice though. Relic amulet alone won't be enough and gearing and certain abilities on preference will also go a long way. This item just makes it so if Cole takes a Maul to the face it doesn't obliterate him before the AI realizes that that's a bad spot to stand.

 

Downside: This item is located in the Amulet of Power chest in Crestwood village behind the locked door. If you've looted this chest I am not sure if the item is still there. Would love confirmation.

 

They didn't pull out the amulet of power did they?

[Arkey]

No it's still there with the relic item.

[Dabrikishaw]

So Inquisitor Amulets of Power can be loot farmed again?

 

EDIT: Never-mind, I forgot there was a separate chest in that room.

[PapaCharlie9]

Went to the wolves' den last night.  Not the best case for a rogue, IMO since they all have perceptive.  Also it was to annoying to try and retest the first small group of wolves outside the lair since there isn't a good save point nearby that will not drop bandits on your head whenever you load.  But I did try the first encounter a few times, after wasting attempts where Cassandra wouldn't use War Cry or Challenge for no apparent reason.  After restart...
 
Sera Level 7, 5%AP, 5%FlankDmg, +50 health, Reinforced Scout (96), Hat of the Inquisitor (14), Dagger of Faith, Thief Blade.  Follow Cass, Stamina 0.
+Upgraded *Preferred
 
Cass and Solas as other AI characters.  Built like in Matth's preSkyhold thread.
 
FA+->Parry*
TwinFangs->DanceofDeath
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*
 
For the first small group, I just sent the party in with an attack order and stood around.  The AI for the first group is interesting since the wolves won't attack a party member who doesn't attack. So my Inquisitor could be really lazy.
 
Really the main things that contributed to poor performance here were when Cass wouldn't taunt, and when Sera tried to use powers on a slope and would miss.  Otherwise if the AI runs normally, Wolves will mainly be aggro'd on Cass and Sera will only get nipped once or twice, despite them seeing her in cloak.  I did not actually try many variations here.  Sera will Parry the wolf attack if she is in front of them and it is her target.  She might flip targets if she was set to follow herself, but I did not test that.  I will need to see if she can handle the threat from that AI setting.
 
I saved at that point so I could redo the lair fight as many times as I wanted.  Sera was missing 1/3 health, and I switched her flanking ring for 2%HOK.
 
Trouble With Wolves Mini-Boss Fight
 
My 3 man team was pretty poor at doing this fight if I just issued a single command and let them go at it.  I never saw Solas fade step, I think the narrow terrain and obstacles might have been an issue, not sure.  Also the team just is not smart enough to dodge the Terror.  Subsequently, I made it my job to just knock down the terror with CB, SB or PBS and let the team do everything else.
 
FA+->Parry*
TwinFangs->DanceofDeath
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*
 
With the same old L7 build and tactics, basically Sera would end up using a health pot nearly every time.  I didn't think that was too bad considering she started the encounter down 1/3 health and they all have perceptive.  I did not see her use Evade much at all, which would probably be used more by a human player.  Parry is used sometimes, but again I think it will be somewhat limited by following Cass (who target switches fairly rapidly).
 
I tried out a heavy Subterfuge build that looked like this:
 
FA
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*->SS
->EasytoMiss->KO->MercyKilling
 
Really I should have made sure FA was upgraded, although lack of stealth isn't as big a deal in this encounter (compared to more typical enemies).  This build was ok, and the AI miraculously usually left the sleeping wolf alone.  But she still used a health pot typically.  The damage was probably lower, since SS has a longer cooldown than TF.  Since the AI was leaving sleeping targets alone, I figured I didn't need MercyKilling.  I did notice her use Evade one time with this build.
 
FA+
TF
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*
->EasytoMiss->KO
 
This was again, more or less the same as the last two where she would use a health pot.  The damage was fine.  Next I tried a build with the left side of the dagger tree to get spinning blades
 
FA+->BP->UC->SB
Stealth*->Evasion->Evade*
 
This build seemed to be really stamina intensive and was not good.  SB probably doesn't make sense this early in the game on an AI character with no on-hit masterwork.
 
I went back to the original build and ran through trying to help a little more, but the result was identical.
 
Next I decided to get Druffy.  Fighting bandits in between was unremarkable since they were in small groups.  I did take Druffy to the Level 12 Fade Rift, despite my team and I being at Level 7.
 
There isn't much to say about that other than you probably want more firepower to do this rift.  Also seems like Druffy is less aggressive here, I don't know if they have changed the behavior to try and close this exploit.  In any case, the Despair Demons are very annoying.  I finished this fight with just Solas and the Inquisitor standing and 1 health pot remaining.  Sera wasn't a big help, which isn't surprising.  Rifts seem to be the worst case for many party members, IMO, since they don't dodge the dangerous bits of ground and take spirit damage, and the composition of this rift is always Despair Demons and Greater Terrors, which the AI is fairly poor against (outside of a few builds).

More good stuff, thanks!

Honestly, I wouldn't expect the AI to do well in the wolf mini-boss situation regardless of the builds or party. As you noted, the terrain is a major obstacle and the AI has some pretty bad path finding.

BTW, you can sneak past the first wolf pack by hugging the rock wall to the right and get all the way to the farm camp. Even easier if you have Fade Step on the lead character. That's what I do and save there. Then you can take on the first pack at your leisure.

[capn233]

Maybe I didn't explain it correctly, but what I was complaining about was that along the river bank en route to the lair there are random spawn points where bandits will tool around.  Usually the first time I go through there they aren't actually there.  This is how it was the very first time I went to go testing.  I saved near the first pack before the entrance, tested, and then when I reloaded there were a bunch of bandits nearby.  At that point whenever I was near the river bandits would spawn, despite not having completed the wolf mission.

 

I had thought that the bandits didn't actually show up there until you clear the wolves, so I was somewhat surprised.  I even reloaded a save in Haven to then travel to the Hinterlands again, but they were there already.

[PapaCharlie9]

Malika's Guard. New 'relic' item put in the patch yesterday. Basically an amulet that acts like a shield for rogues with 30% damage reduction from front plus 20% attack and 10 Dex but at the cost of -50 flanking damage. Min/Max wise it's better to flank with dagger rouges given flank damage and double crit chance but the AI is not great at flanking and the -30% damage reduction from front, like a shield on a warrior, comes before damage is reduced by armor so you should see leaps and bounds in terms of survivability on an AI dagger rogue.
 
Don't ignore all previous advice though. Relic amulet alone won't be enough and gearing and certain abilities on preference will also go a long way. This item just makes it so if Cole takes a Maul to the face it doesn't obliterate him before the AI realizes that that's a bad spot to stand.
 
Downside: This item is located in the Amulet of Power chest in Crestwood village behind the locked door. If you've looted this chest I am not sure if the item is still there. Would love confirmation.

Confirmed that if you looted the chest before the patch, no do-overs, you get nada.

I had a pre-patch save where I had already looted the locked house completely. I loaded it and checked the room again. Nothing there, pretty much as expected.

Maybe it can be bought at BE? I haven't checked there yet.

EDIT: Checked BE. Not there for L15 IQ.

[capn233]

I didn't do much in the way of exhaustive tests tonight, but I did take the Woods camp, then the Merc Fortress.  2H enemies galore.

 

The team was Level 7, but the Inquisitor hit 8 when I read some paper in the room after the first guy.  IIRC most of the enemies were Level 8 except for the Outlaw Leader, who was 9.

 

Anyway I just went through the fort.  Sera used a couple potions on the three two handers before you get to the Outlaw Leader boss.  AI just could not handle this fight at all and Sera died every single time I let the AI run her.  I tried different tactic sets, but it really didn't matter.  After the archers were dead and she moved to help on the Leader, she would eventually get hit and die.  Basically a hit from the Leader removed something like 80-90% of her health (with Reinforced Scout Armor - 96).

 

She would Parry sometimes if in front, and Evaded maybe once.  I can't figure out how the AI determines whether it should evade or not since it seems like it almost never uses it to avoid melee.

 

After messing around with settings and running the fight more times, I got somewhat irritated with Sera and decided to control her myself.  I have played dagger inquisitor before, but didn't use Parry (actually I originally hated it and dropped it after trying it once), but I gave it another chance in MP when the Silent Sister came out.  The bottom line was that it was possible to simply parry every single attack from the Outlaw Leader regardless of whether I was in front of him or not, and whether he was "enraged" or not.  Granted, timing is important.  Also for whatever reason, in order to perform the parries close enough together to actually block consecutive swings, I would have to hit the key twice for each block after the first one.  Not sure why that is.  But anyway, if the AI actually used Parry semi decently, then the dagger rogue would have no problems against any 2H enemy.

[MidnightWolf]

I mainly play as a Mage so I always have Cole with me, and he rarely goes down in battle.
I set his tactics (if you can call them 'tactics in this game) to follow my Mage. Set his stamina to reserve 20%. I fill out most, if not all of the subterfuge tree, as well as his Assassin tree. And give him some abilitys and passives from the dagger tree. He also has a Dagger which give five guard on hit. Plus I've set stealth to preferred.

I just finished JOH again, with Cole Blackwall and Iron Bull. And despite those two Warriors having things from the Vanguard tree to give them guard, plus guard on hit weapons, Cole faired the best because he kept stealthing out. Iron Bull got knocked out when we went against the Dragon at the end.

He really doesn't need much, if any, babysitting with the way I build him. The only time he will need it, is if we're up against brutes who do nothing but spam that spinning blades ability which two handed Warriors use.....Yeah I'm looking at you Hakkon jerks...in which case I make him defend me via the tactical cam, and stand as far away as I can.

[PapaCharlie9]

I didn't do much in the way of exhaustive tests tonight, but I did take the Woods camp, then the Merc Fortress.  2H enemies galore.

 

The team was Level 7, but the Inquisitor hit 8 when I read some paper in the room after the first guy.  IIRC most of the enemies were Level 8 except for the Outlaw Leader, who was 9.

 

Anyway I just went through the fort.  Sera used a couple potions on the three two handers before you get to the Outlaw Leader boss.  AI just could not handle this fight at all and Sera died every single time I let the AI run her.  I tried different tactic sets, but it really didn't matter.  After the archers were dead and she moved to help on the Leader, she would eventually get hit and die.  Basically a hit from the Leader removed something like 80-90% of her health (with Reinforced Scout Armor - 96).

 

She would Parry sometimes if in front, and Evaded maybe once.  I can't figure out how the AI determines whether it should evade or not since it seems like it almost never uses it to avoid melee.

 

After messing around with settings and running the fight more times, I got somewhat irritated with Sera and decided to control her myself.  I have played dagger inquisitor before, but didn't use Parry (actually I originally hated it and dropped it after trying it once), but I gave it another chance in MP when the Silent Sister came out.  The bottom line was that it was possible to simply parry every single attack from the Outlaw Leader regardless of whether I was in front of him or not, and whether he was "enraged" or not.  Granted, timing is important.  Also for whatever reason, in order to perform the parries close enough together to actually block consecutive swings, I would have to hit the key twice for each block after the first one.  Not sure why that is.  But anyway, if the AI actually used Parry semi decently, then the dagger rogue would have no problems against any 2H enemy.

Parry aside, do you suppose it was terrain again that messed up the AI? The merc fortress is pretty cramped.

[capn233]

Parry aside, do you suppose it was terrain again that messed up the AI? The merc fortress is pretty cramped.

 

No.  I think it is something about the way the AI logic works.  I never see her try to Parry if she is flanking, which is important against the 2H since they can hit you no matter which way they are facing relative to you.

 

She might be slightly better with only Parry active against them, and I might go back and double check.  If that actually works, then it would be amusing.  I am not sure if there is supposed to be a cooldown for how quickly you can use Parry back to back (since I had to hit the key twice when I was manually controlling her after the first time in any chain), or if it is like how the DAO system was where it starts at the top of the list and checks if appropriate, then moves to the next power and so on until a hit.  But in any case I think that is another potential problem for her on autopilot.

[PapaCharlie9]

That's surprising, given that S&S seem to be very effective in using a shield. I'm not sure if it is Shield Wall or the passives, but I've seen Cass on AI use a shield very effectively to deflect ranged attacks, dragon breath and bite attacks, sword swings, etc. You'd think that if they could get S&S right, why wouldn't Parry work as well?

[capn233]

Well I haven't really tested Cass too much since she does an ok job, but typically as a tank she isn't flanking enemies since she taunts them.  I do know that she doesn't tend to preemptively shield wall attacks from the ground, like Terrors or Envy.  She also does get knocked down by 2H from time to time, but she has a higher armor rating, DR and some guard usually so it isn't like Sera who can lose much more health if she is hit, so she can only really screw up maybe once.

[capn233]

My save before the Merc Fortress was corrupted so I couldn't retest it.  But there is a 2H Darkspawn in Valanmar, so I went there.  Trying to nail down Parry and Evade behavior.

 

Test 1: Parry preferred, everything else disabled

 

She only seemed to parry if not flanking.  Additionally, she would only parry every other standard attack, and made no attempt to parry regardless of angle if the enemy was doing the special attack after building guard (I'll just call it enraged).  The latter is interesting, because Cassandra also seemed to make no attempt to SW it.  Maybe this is to encourage micro against 2H enemies.

 

Test 2: Parry and Evade enabled, everything else disabled

 

Her behavior was exactly the same as in the first test.  She made no attempt to Evade regardless of angle.  If in front, she would parry every other attack.  I had hoped she would Evade the enraged special attack, but she did not.

 

Test 3: Evade preferred, Parry enabled, everything else disabled.

 

In this case she would use Evade against standard attacks if she was not flanking, and still did not attempt to Evade if flanking or if the 2H did the enraged attack sequence.  Interestingly, this was also the only setting where Sera would consistently get killed.

 

Conclusions

-Parry and Evade are both only used to counter standard attacks from 2H enemies

-Parry and Evade are likely only an option for AI when not flanking the enemy

-Parry has priority over Evade when both set to Enabled against 2H enemies (likely generalizable to all melee).

[Bigdawg13]

So does it work with parry, evade, and some guard generators?

[capn233]

So does it work with parry, evade, and some guard generators?

 

Does what work?  Autopilot NPC dw rogue in general?  If that is the question I imagine that will be pretty decent, but I haven't actually crafted anything for Sera so far.  She does have the masterwork scout armor you can buy in Redcliffe now though.  I haven't even done Champions or Hushed Whispers yet.