415 réponses à ce sujet

[SmilesJA]

DAI made that more robust. They had moments where the protagonist could express surprise, anger, sorrow, comfort, etc. I hope Mass Effect: Andromeda follows up on that. 

 

Nah that was Dragon Age 2. 

[KainD]

Not very well.

 

Is when your character that you roleplay has a bunch of predetermined stances and emotional responses. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Nah that was Dragon Age 2. 

Dragon Age 2 introduced the diplomatic, sarcastic, and aggressive dialogue paths. Dragon Age: Inquisition added opportunities for the player to have their character express even more. 

[SmilesJA]

Dragon Age 2 introduced the diplomatic, sarcastic, and aggressive dialogue paths. Dragon Age: Inquisition added opportunities for the player to have their character express even more. 

 

Which made the Inquistor sound like a robot. 

[KainD]

Which made the Inquistor sound like a robot. 

 

You serious? 

[BabyPuncher]

Is when your character that you roleplay has a bunch of predetermined stances and emotional responses. 

 

That's the reality I would suggest you get used to. Certainly a far better rather reality with Shepard than with the Inquisitor's personality of 'different flavors of dullard.'

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which made the Inquistor sound like a robot. 

In your opinion. I liked it and hope they expand on it further in future games.

[BabyPuncher]

Dragon Age 2 introduced the diplomatic, sarcastic, and aggressive dialogue paths. Dragon Age: Inquisition added opportunities for the player to have their character express even more. 

 

A well written and compelling character is about much, much more than the emotions they can express.

[KainD]

That's the reality I would suggest you get used to. Certainly a far better rather reality with Shepard than with the Inquisitor's personality of 'different flavors of dullard.'

 

They just keep marketing something completely different from what you get. They always go: ''You get to make your own character, you will make your decisions that matter, it's all up to you durr, hurr.'' 

What they should actually say is: ''You get to roleplay ''X'', that wants to ''Y'' and is ''Z'' kind of person.'' 

[SmilesJA]

You serious? 

 

Dead serious.

[KainD]

Dead serious.

 

Funny, because I found my Inquisitor to be overemotional, which I didn't like. 

[BabyPuncher]

They just keep marketing something completely different from what you get. They always go: ''You get to make your own character, you will make your decisions that matter, it's all up to you durr, hurr.''

 

Yeah. Yeah, I know. That is unfortunate. Every damn game they put out it's always "THIS TIME your choices will matter like never before. We know we kind of disappointed people last time when we said the exact same thing, but THIS TIME we actually mean it. THIS TIME we're getting it right."

 

I don't know what to tell you. It's advertising.

[SmilesJA]

Funny, because I found my Inquisitor to be overemotional, which I didn't like. 

 

Wow! My Inquisitor sounded so dull that I missed emotive Hawke from DA2.

[KainD]

Wow! My Inquisitor sounded so dull that I missed emotive Hawke from DA2.

 

Different voice actor mb? I think I need that one. ^^

[ComedicSociopathy]

I'm sorry, but what does the OP mean by feminine?

 

Feminine is a very broad term and almost entirely lends itself to countless generalizations and stereotypes about female behavior. OP said that they wanted the Femshep to be more tender, but I'd argue that Paragon Shep already is caring and emphatic towards overs. They wanted Femshep to be more feminine in romances, but like I said what exactly does that mean.

 

Did the OP believe that Femshep shouldn't ever be the instigator in romances and remain passive while in them? Also, does the OP what Femshep to talk about shopping and shoes during missions? Or did they want Femshep to always be nice and non-combative while their fighting alien mercenaries trying to kill her? Maybe they want the next female protagonist to defer all decision making to the male characters around them?

 

Joking aside I don't see Femshep as being not a feminine character, but a character that supposed to be a military commander which means she's going to act in ways that some might argue as overly masculine but are really personality traits that come with having such a profession. 

[Ahglock]

Dragon Age 2 introduced the diplomatic, sarcastic, and aggressive dialogue paths. Dragon Age: Inquisition added opportunities for the player to have their character express even more. 

 

I guess I should try to get past the into one of these days..  I really hate the advancement in the classes and the combat.

[Mdizzletr0n]

The female "American" voice in DAI was definitely dull and robotic. The English one was SO much better.

[AranSaxra]

The female "American" voice in DAI was definitely dull and robotic. The English one was SO much better.

I have to disagree there.  To me, the English one sounded a bit overacted or too emotional for the situation, at times.

[Lady Artifice]

I appreciate your comments - particularly the last paragraph - and agree that it is a problem.

But the bigger problem, imho, is defining what sorts of traits and behaviors are feminine versus those that are considered masculine. I personally don't view traits like decisive, authoritative leadership skills or competence / expertise in a career field as being either feminine or masculine, but neutral.

I also don't view things like ruffles, bows, dresses as being inherently feminine (or masculine). Things like that are largely cultural and very much personal preference. As someone who was forced to wear skirts / dresses to school every day (while hating every moment of it), and continued to put myself in dresses / pantyhose / heels for a number of years to satisfy social expectations, I get pretty resentful when people try to associate one's degree of femininity with how much one enjoys wearing dresses.

Of course, there's also the fact that the most overtly 'feminine' behaviors I've ever seen are embodied in drag queens, not actual women.

Threads like these never define exactly what kinds of behaviors are being requested, which leaves observers - including devs - to draw their own conclusions. There are a couple of things that come to my mind when I consider what devs might do to satisfy these requests:

-- Sexualize the character. This can take the form of the walk / run animation used in DA, which conveys fertility and sexual receptivity, and I read it as advertising for a breeding partner.
-- Make the character express vanity. That tends to emphasize the feeling that the character is primarily valued for her appearance, e.g., providing eye candy is an important part of her role.

Of course, I also don't make automatic, whole-cloth associations of female = feminine and male = masculine. I happen to think that every individual has some mix of feminine and masculine characteristics. Digging a little deeper, one might say, for example, that feminine nature tends toward cooperation and masculine nature tends toward competition. In that case, one might say that Paragon choices lean more feminine, and Renegade choices lean more masculine.

And, yeah, I admit that everytime I see a thread like this, it scares me a little. I'm afraid they'll use the female walk / run animation from DA in ME. Seeing that pose on the poster they've released is pretty discouraging to me.

But the bigger fear comes from having seen the litany of complaints (on the DA:I board) about hairstyles, the taupe outfit the Inquisitor wears around Skyhold, the 'why can't I have a ballgown' threads, etc. (Never mind the fact that there was zero concurrence wrt what type of ballgown would be desirable.) I'm afraid that at some point, the devs might throw up their hands and say, "Screw it. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to discontinue the female protagonist."

An unfortunate, but not inconceivable, consequence.

 

As usual you make some excellent points that I can't, and wouldn't, argue with. Especially...

 

 

I personally don't view traits like decisive, authoritative leadership skills or competence / expertise in a career field as being either feminine or masculine, but neutral.

 

All I'll say is that when I refer to something as "stereotypically feminine," I'm referring to things like sensuality, grace, and gentleness. All characteristics that are commonly associated with the female sex, and as a result, occasionally stigmatized as signs of weakness by all sorts of people, feminist or otherwise. All characteristics I believe undeserving of that, whoever--and whichever sex--might be demonstrating them. 

 

In the end, we're in agreement about the steps Bioware should take. Creating neutral animations is very probably the wisest course of action available to them,  and I really hope that the people who feel very strongly about that get what they're hoping for. 

 

I don't think there's any chance of them writing off the female protagonist in their RPGs, whatever happens on these forums. At this point, that would put them  well behind other companies. 

[SmilesJA]

It's laughable to even think that Bioware would remove their female protagonists in future games.

[Lady Artifice]

I'm with you, it's really frustrating that it feels like the only way that an action style female can be taken seriously is to act all macho badass? It really falls under the man with boobs portrayal which I think unoriginal and safe. Mix it up a bit, and have a female character show a soft side while at the same time be badass. In addition this is why I feel many people are hesitant on making female characters. No matter what, if they express too much femininity (in the critics eyes.) then it's "sexist" If it's too little than they are just expressing masculinity. Such arbitrary standards makes it nearly impossible to make a deep and interesting female character without being accused of being offensive.

 

Mostly, I'm concerned with the prospect of it being oversimplified. I want variety, and ideally I'd like to witness that variety without a sense of judgement. In so many examples in media, one type of female is implied to be superior to others. Vasquez always dies, but so did Joan Lambert, and a lot less memorably. Male characters aren't immune to this effect by any means, and really, it's up the creator to determine if they want to push or represent an ideal they cherish.

 

My argument, I suppose, has been that Bioware has already been providing that variety better than most. The same lore that delivered Morrigan, delivered Cassandra, delivered Aveline, delivered Bethany. I have no particular complaints. 

 

If a characters job is to murder thousands of people and blow stuff up then yes, having a ''traditionally'' masculine attitude makes that character superior. I'm not sure which ''traditional'' feminine qualities would be useful on the battlefield. 

 

I smh a LOT reading this thread though, because I'm really tired having to deal with the fact that words ''masculine'' and ''feminine'' still exist and are still a part of the language, when they are way overdue to be removed from it due to being redundant, meaningless and subjective. 

 

 

I agree with you on the subjectivity and potential redundancy of those terms, but it's almost impossible to do away with them completely. The best I can do is clarify that I'm discussing stereotypes and acknowledge that my interpretation of a term might be entirely removed from someone else. I don't agree with the notion that the subjectivity of a word renders it obsolete. 

[Lady Artifice]

You know what I find to be interesting though about all this neutrality is that then female gamers complain why can't their female protagonist be considered sexy and have male npcs/LIs come onto them or show interest first. The masculine aspects we associate with the protagonist are already present with the physical strength, aggression, combat prowess, etc. and the female npcs/LIs can show interest for our strength and swoon at our heroic deeds.

 

But let's say with someone like Miranda who uses her sex appeal to gain an advantage, whilst being equally lethal in combat, and she is undeniably feminine. Now if I want to play that sort of act for my female protagonist, and have her be physically desirable in some part of the game, it will be seen as sexist or objectifying...WTF. Really?

 

Like was SWtoR (teen rated) sexist in this optional scene only available to the femAgent:

 

 

I've established that I'm in the minority who would happily play a more..."girly," or even sensual character, and who likes the dialogue in which the protagonist--of either gender--is sometimes characterized as desirable. Sometimes people accuse that of being self indulgent wish fulfillment, but I think if we're being honest, that tends to be the norm for an RPG in the first place. If I were treating these games as though they were only my own, I'd pick a female character who moves something like Samara. 

 

I'm also with you in regarding the idea of the occasional charm or even seduce option (I liked that option in Mark of the Assassin), but I'd rather they occur for both genders, even if they occur in different situations, and with different target characters. 

[KaiserShep]

The female "American" voice in DAI was definitely dull and robotic. The English one was SO much better.

 

Eh, I just can't get past the whole Traynor thing, so I prefer Sumalee's voice. 

[KaiserShep]

It's laughable to even think that Bioware would remove their female protagonists in future games.

 

Yeah it's a pretty sure bet that this is never going away for as long as BioWare stays in business.