415 réponses à ce sujet

[PrinceLionheart]

So like Major Alex Louis Armstrong?

No, be a bear like the Iron Bull. 

[Lady Artifice]

For individuals (or NPCs) who choose that behavior, no - there's nothing wrong with it.

Forcing the PC to be girly is probably not a great idea, though. A character that sticks her hip out as shown in the poster - or walks/runs like Hawke or the Inquisitor - is not a character I want to play (or watch for the entirety of a game).

 

Here's where I sometimes get frustrated, because I can easily accept that most people don't want a female protagonist to be sexualized or hyper feminized. 

 

That's fine, that's understandable.

 

It's the implication that every time a female character does behave in a stereotypically feminine way that it's something to "SMH" over, because clearly she can't be taken seriously unless she's completely bereft of those mannerisms, right? 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...DontWearDresses

 

I look at that, and I see another way to glorify traditional masculinity as superior. Another way to stigmatize femininity.

[Former_Fiend]

You know, I made a decision a few years back that, should I ever have kids, I'm going to buy them whatever kind of toys they want. If I have a daughter, if she wants to play with barbies, I'll buy her barbies. If she wants to play with actionfigures and laser guns, I'll buy her action figures and laser guns. Same goes if I have a son.

 

As much as I enjoy games that allow us to choose and customize our character and play the character we want - they're pretty much the only kind of game I'll play anymore; I hate the Uncharted series because the game is basically a railshooter; come on, Naughtdog, if you want to make movies, make movies - there is an inherent limit to just how deep they can make it due to word budget and due to memory constraints. For all they can do visually, there's only so much they can do verbally.

 

I touched on this briefly in the explicit content threads that have thankfully died; it would be nice, for those people who don't like strong language, if they included an option for your character to express that opinion whenever someone cursed around you. Problem being that would eat into the word budget, especially considering any realistic response to that is either going to be an explosion of laughter or "Well, too f'ning bad."

 

And how this relates is that, it would be great if there were multiple dialogue options that allowed you to play a Femprotagonist with various levels of femininity and a Maleprotagonist with various levels of machismo, and that's the kind of thing that would definitely appeal to a larger percentage of the audience than the above example about cursing, but there is still a limit to how much they can do with that due to the word budget, due to just the limit of how much they can fit on a disk.

 

So the question is, how do you find that balance, because this isn't an unimportant issue, this isn't trivial; how we can shape and define our character is a large part of these games, it's a large part of the appeal. But how much do you sacrifice in the name of that? How much plot and story, how much character development and depth for the other characters in the game?

 

I don't know that they've cracked that code yet, I don't know that there is an objective answer to that question that will make everyone happy. I would hope that now that we're on a new generation of platforms that maybe there's enough room for everything to increase, including the customizing of a character's personality in addition to their appearance, but I don't know that we're there yet.

[BabyPuncher]

You know, I made a decision a few years back that, should I ever have kids, I'm going to buy them whatever kind of toys they want. If I have a daughter, if she wants to play with barbies, I'll buy her barbies. If she wants to play with actionfigures and laser guns, I'll buy her action figures and laser guns. Same goes if I have a son.

 

I would hope you wouldn't be putting your son in a dress because that's what he points to at the clothing store when he's two years old.

 

Also the word budget has nothing to do with 'how much they can fit on a disk.' Which is technology that's set to become obsolete within a few years in any case.
 

[Former_Fiend]

I would hope you wouldn't be putting your son in a dress because that's what he points at at the clothing store when he's two years old.
 

 

Didn't say I was going to let them dress themselves. Least not from such an early age. 

 

But, later on in the kid's life when he's older, able to make more of an informed decision, and that's what he feels he wants to wear, then yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

[BabyPuncher]

Mmm. Of course by that age, it's probably too late for you to have much of an influence either way.

[Former_Fiend]

There's only so much influence I want to have on my kids. I don't want to shape them into miniature versions of me. There are certain values I want to give them in regards to free thinking, open mindedness, and just basic human decency, but beyond that I'd just want to give them information and let them reach their own conclusion. 

 

Of course, this is all hypothetical; I'm not planning on having kids in the foreseeable future. 

[BabyPuncher]

Mmm. You know, I think most people ultimately desire more influence in their lives. That they feel like they're not living up to their complete potential, and they'd like to have someone enter their lives to push them in the right direction. Of course, it always has to be the right influence - and therein lies the rub.

 

There's a quote I really love that TV tropes attributes to Paul Krugman. "The struggle for balance creates imbalance because sometimes, things are true."

[Felya87]

FYI male Shepard looks equally stupid when he runs.

 

Yep. ME2-3 (and DAI) have bad walking animation for both genders. I always cringe when my (supposed) graceful mage elf run like he have a melon between his legs, same when my (supposed) noiseless and careful Infiltrator stomped like a T-Rex here and there.

[Mdizzletr0n]

lol Funny you should say that b/c I played ME3 before playing the first two... and when my male Shep started running in that scene I had to stop and burst out laughing because he looked like he was running on a football field lol

But it still doesn't compare to (I think) ME2, which has Shep's hanging at an angle as he runs, as if his neck is broken...

Yea I was reminded of that when I decided to try and play through ME2 again... I hate that run animation as well. Is mocap really THAT expensive? Can't they ask daddy EA for a bigger allowance? Lol

[JamieCOTC]

For me personally I thought ME3 made femshep feminine enough. There were a couple of awkward animations, but as a whole, I thought it was pretty good. Idealistically whether or not the protagonist exhibits feminine or masculine traits should be up to the player, but there are limitations to games. I think BW has learned their lesson on going completely gender neutral w/ the dialogue,for variety sake if noting else. As to the other, in a game where people take flaming bullets to the face and don't fall down dead immedinately, I can forgive a few things.

[Pasquale1234]

Here's where I sometimes get frustrated, because I can easily accept that most people don't want a female protagonist to be sexualized or hyper feminized. 
 
That's fine, that's understandable.
 
It's the implication that every time a female character does behave in a stereotypically feminine way that it's something to "SMH" over, because clearly she can't be taken seriously unless she's completely bereft of those mannerisms, right? 
 
http://tvtropes.org/...DontWearDresses
 
I look at that, and I see another way to glorify traditional masculinity as superior. Another way to stigmatize femininity.

I appreciate your comments - particularly the last paragraph - and agree that it is a problem.

But the bigger problem, imho, is defining what sorts of traits and behaviors are feminine versus those that are considered masculine. I personally don't view traits like decisive, authoritative leadership skills or competence / expertise in a career field as being either feminine or masculine, but neutral.

I also don't view things like ruffles, bows, dresses as being inherently feminine (or masculine). Things like that are largely cultural and very much personal preference. As someone who was forced to wear skirts / dresses to school every day (while hating every moment of it), and continued to put myself in dresses / pantyhose / heels for a number of years to satisfy social expectations, I get pretty resentful when people try to associate one's degree of femininity with how much one enjoys wearing dresses.

Of course, there's also the fact that the most overtly 'feminine' behaviors I've ever seen are embodied in drag queens, not actual women.

Threads like these never define exactly what kinds of behaviors are being requested, which leaves observers - including devs - to draw their own conclusions. There are a couple of things that come to my mind when I consider what devs might do to satisfy these requests:

-- Sexualize the character. This can take the form of the walk / run animation used in DA, which conveys fertility and sexual receptivity, and I read it as advertising for a breeding partner.
-- Make the character express vanity. That tends to emphasize the feeling that the character is primarily valued for her appearance, e.g., providing eye candy is an important part of her role.

Of course, I also don't make automatic, whole-cloth associations of female = feminine and male = masculine. I happen to think that every individual has some mix of feminine and masculine characteristics. Digging a little deeper, one might say, for example, that feminine nature tends toward cooperation and masculine nature tends toward competition. In that case, one might say that Paragon choices lean more feminine, and Renegade choices lean more masculine.

And, yeah, I admit that everytime I see a thread like this, it scares me a little. I'm afraid they'll use the female walk / run animation from DA in ME. Seeing that pose on the poster they've released is pretty discouraging to me.

But the bigger fear comes from having seen the litany of complaints (on the DA:I board) about hairstyles, the taupe outfit the Inquisitor wears around Skyhold, the 'why can't I have a ballgown' threads, etc. (Never mind the fact that there was zero concurrence wrt what type of ballgown would be desirable.) I'm afraid that at some point, the devs might throw up their hands and say, "Screw it. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to discontinue the female protagonist."

An unfortunate, but not inconceivable, consequence.

[Ahglock]

So like Major Alex Louis Armstrong?

 

Greatest character ever!!  He should be the protagonist. I'm not even joking. Surface crazy with piles of depth. 

[Jaquio]

I don't know that they've cracked that code yet, I don't know that there is an objective answer to that question that will make everyone happy. I would hope that now that we're on a new generation of platforms that maybe there's enough room for everything to increase, including the customizing of a character's personality in addition to their appearance, but I don't know that we're there yet.

 

That's a very good question and one that we're going to have to explore over the next decade.

 

The glory days of highly customizable characters was built upon the ease of text.  It's great to have lots of options in a game like Fallout 2 where most of the decisions you're making are text based, and it's simply a matter of having enough writers.  But once we started making games more cinematic, there's a constant pull of how much to include and what you cut.

 

The decision to add non-human races in DA:I is the perfect example of this issue.  The game was clearly streamlined for a human character.  I normally play humans and found the experience to be rewarding.  But in my third playthrough, I decided to try a chantry-hating Dalish elf, and the experience was jarring.  The playstyle and conversational choices simply weren't there.

 

In the end, they decided the outcry for more races meant they needed to add them, but they clearly couldn't devote the resources they wanted to towards that end.  Would it have been better for them to make a human-only protagonist and have the game feel more solid?  Or is it better to have more options but feel that the game is more shallow?  I don't have the answer to that question.

[SmilesJA]

Here's where I sometimes get frustrated, because I can easily accept that most people don't want a female protagonist to be sexualized or hyper feminized. 

 

That's fine, that's understandable.

 

It's the implication that every time a female character does behave in a stereotypically feminine way that it's something to "SMH" over, because clearly she can't be taken seriously unless she's completely bereft of those mannerisms, right? 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...DontWearDresses

 

I look at that, and I see another way to glorify traditional masculinity as superior. Another way to stigmatize femininity.

 

I'm with you, it's really frustrating that it feels like the only way that an action style female can be taken seriously is to act all macho badass? It really falls under the man with boobs portrayal which I think unoriginal and safe. Mix it up a bit, and have a female character show a soft side while at the same time be badass. In addition this is why I feel many people are hesitant on making female characters. No matter what, if they express too much femininity (in the critics eyes.) then it's "sexist" If it's too little than they are just expressing masculinity. Such arbitrary standards makes it nearly impossible to make a deep and interesting female character without being accused of being offensive.

[KainD]

Here's where I sometimes get frustrated, because I can easily accept that most people don't want a female protagonist to be sexualized or hyper feminized. 

 

That's fine, that's understandable.

 

It's the implication that every time a female character does behave in a stereotypically feminine way that it's something to "SMH" over, because clearly she can't be taken seriously unless she's completely bereft of those mannerisms, right? 

 

http://tvtropes.org/...DontWearDresses

 

I look at that, and I see another way to glorify traditional masculinity as superior. Another way to stigmatize femininity.

 

 

If a characters job is to murder thousands of people and blow stuff up then yes, having a ''traditionally'' masculine attitude makes that character superior. I'm not sure which ''traditional'' feminine qualities would be useful on the battlefield. 

 

I smh a LOT reading this thread though, because I'm really tired having to deal with the fact that words ''masculine'' and ''feminine'' still exist and are still a part of the language, when they are way overdue to be removed from it due to being redundant, meaningless and subjective. 

[KainD]

Mix it up a bit, and have a female character show a soft side while at the same time be badass.

 

Because women are supposed to have a soft side. 

[kirvingtwo]

I'm with you, it's really frustrating that it feels like the only way that an action style female can be taken seriously is to act all macho badass? It really falls under the man with boobs portrayal which I think unoriginal and safe. Mix it up a bit, and have a female character show a soft side while at the same time be badass. In addition this is why I feel many people are hesitant on making female characters. No matter what, if they express too much femininity (in the critics eyes.) then it's "sexist" If it's too little than they are just expressing masculinity. Such arbitrary standards makes it nearly impossible to make a deep and interesting female character without being accused of being offensive.

Ouch!  My favourite female characters, in any medium, are the ones that often get referred to (unfairly imo) as 'man with boobs'.  For me, as a woman, they are some of the only characters that I feel I can really relate to.

I'm supportative of people wanting more feminine (whatever that ends up being) aspects, if they are optional as in a choice of animations and no forced dress wearing. 

The MEA poster with that odd hip jut already has me dreading the walking and running animation for the female pc and the male pc.  I think they will reuse or only slightly tweak the exaggerated animations from DAI.

[SmilesJA]

Because women are supposed to have a soft side. 

 

I never said that women are required to have a soft side. I just want to see some variety in characters.

[KainD]

I never said that women are required to have a soft side. I just want to see some variety in characters.

 

Shepard was 1 character, that's why she stayed consistent more or less through out 3 games. If we talking about characters in general, imo we have a lot of variety. 

 

If we look at the crew: Shepard, Ashley, Liara, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Samara, Morinth- all very different characters. 

 

An through out the games all of these characters have showed different sides to their character, both tough and soft. 

[Ahglock]

Shepard was 1 character, that's why she stayed consistent more or less through out 3 games. If we talking about characters in general, imo we have a lot of variety. 

 

If we look at the crew: Shepard, Ashley, Liara, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Samara, Morinth- all very different characters. 

 

An through out the games all of these characters have showed different sides to their character, both tough and soft. 

 

Given how absurdly different a paragon is vs a renegade I'm not sure your reasoning stands.  Never played the female Shepard and I never will, but for the male Shepard a wider range of personality choices between neutral inane paragon and insane renegade would've been appreciated.  Adding in tough, soft, sarcastic etc would  help. Dragon age2ish but more robust.

[KainD]

Given how absurdly different a paragon is vs a renegade I'm not sure your reasoning stands. 

 

I don't find the two absurdly different, I can actually see the same person being able to do one or the other. 

 

 

Never played the female Shepard and I never will, but for the male Shepard..

 

And you never have to, it's exactly the same character. 99% of conversations word for word. 

[SmilesJA]

Shepard was 1 character, that's why she stayed consistent more or less through out 3 games. If we talking about characters in general, imo we have a lot of variety. 

 

If we look at the crew: Shepard, Ashley, Liara, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Samara, Morinth- all very different characters. 

 

An through out the games all of these characters have showed different sides to their character, both tough and soft. 

 

Which is why I hope they keep it up for this game. (If I decide to get it.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Given how absurdly different a paragon is vs a renegade I'm not sure your reasoning stands.  Never played the female Shepard and I never will, but for the male Shepard a wider range of personality choices between neutral inane paragon and insane renegade would've been appreciated.  Adding in tough, soft, sarcastic etc would  help. Dragon age2ish but more robust.

DAI made that more robust. They had moments where the protagonist could express surprise, anger, sorrow, comfort, etc. I hope Mass Effect: Andromeda follows up on that. 

[BabyPuncher]

DAI made that more robust. They had moments where the protagonist could express surprise, anger, sorrow, comfort, etc.

 

Not very well.