25 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

As you know, the Wardens supposedly made Anders get rid of Ser Pounce-a-Lot and didn't exactly stand for him when the templars showed up again.

The question is... where would such orders come from? I can't imagine the Warden-Commander doing or allowing either of those.

[Yaroub]

It's just a ridiculous claim along several others after origins to make the grey ones look "bad". nonsense i call it.

[springacres]

As you know, the Wardens supposedly made Anders get rid of Ser Pounce-a-Lot and didn't ezactly stand for him when the templars showed up again.

The question is... where would such orders come from? I can't imagine the Warden-Commander doing or allowing either of those.

I can't either, particularly since my canon Warden is also a Fereldan Circle Mage.  He and Anders grew up together.   Personal headcanon says he felt obliged to accept the templar's application for some reason (probably to help fight any actual blood mages they come across) but I can't see him under any circumstances forcing Anders to give up Ser Pounce-a-Lot.  The only excuse I can come up with for that is that maybe Mistress Woolsey complained to Weisshaupt, but even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Qun00]

It's just a ridiculous claim along several others after origins to make the grey ones look "bad". nonsense i call it.

There was no need for justification, honestly. Anders already didn't care much about being a grey warden back in Awakening.

I can't either, particularly since my canon Warden is also a Fereldan Circle Mage. He and Anders grew up together. Personal headcanon says he felt obliged to accept the templar's application for some reason (probably to help fight any actual blood mages they come across) but I can't see him under any circumstances forcing Anders to give up Ser Pounce-a-Lot. The only excuse I can come up with for that is that maybe Mistress Woolsey complained to Weisshaupt, but even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It doesn't even have to be a matter of roleplay. It's just common sense.

If you think keeping a pet is a bad idea, why give Anders a cat as a gift in the first place? If you've protected him from the templars by invoking the right of conscription, why sell him out when the templars try again? Are we suddenly afraid of the Big Bad Chantry?

That is, unless the player is to believe that the wardens did it all behind the Commander's back.

[Ferretinabun]

I never read it as a matter of Grey Warden policy. I don't think the Wardens had a strict No Pets rule.

 

I just read it as the other Wardens in Vigil's Keep telling him to get rid of it, either because the cat was a nuisance and they didn't like it, or because they guilt-tripped him into giving it a more suitable home for its own good, which he resents.

[caradoc2000]

The only pets allowed are bats and they must be kept in the belfry.

[Qun00]

I never read it as a matter of Grey Warden policy. I don't think the Wardens had a strict No Pets rule.

I just read it as the other Wardens in Vigil's Keep telling him to get rid of it, either because the cat was a nuisance and they didn't like it, or because they guilt-tripped him into giving it a more suitable home for its own good, which he resents.

Ahh, good ol' bullying then. No actual orders.


But what about that templar business? You'd think the Warden-Commander would have something to say about that.

[Ferretinabun]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to here...

[Sah291]

I think it's mostly just a hand wave to explain why he isn't with the Wardens anymore, because Anders (and Justice) can have pretty varied outcomes in Awakening, ranging from dying to remaining with the Wardens. I believe the Warden Commander eventually leaves in all epilogues though, so we can assume the orders either came from whoever took command afterwards. It's implied there were templars infiltrating the order at the time also, according the short story Anders' writer wrote....but I don't know if that's considered canon at all.

Maybe it was just to show why Anders didn't fit in with the Wardens, because he wasn't willing to do what had to be done, and was too "soft".... He didn't really like confrontation or fighting...which highlights his huge transformation by the end of DA2. His inner conflict is all about struggling between being the pacifist healer and the rage filled vengeance.

For me it fit my world state I guess...my Warden was a mage who did the dark ritual and spared the Architect. So I can imagine there being a lot of paranoia and suspicions about her and the people she recruited, with leadership possibly driving them out.

[Qun00]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to here...

Straight from the wiki:

"Events after Awakening

(...)

Anders had discussed with Justice about the oppression of mages, and had been contemplating being more proactive in righting the injustice of the Circle of Magi. One day, Justice, Anders, and several other Wardens were sent on an assignment.

A former templar, Rolan, infiltrates the Grey Warden ranks to keep a close watch on Anders. After Anders allows Justice to use his body as a host, Rolan accuses him of becoming an abomination and brings the templars down on him, stating that the Wardens agreed with the decision. Anders kills Rolan, the templars, and the Wardens and flees.[2] The Wardens investigated the disappearance of their missing men and tracked the missing Wardens' last camp to a forest south of Amaranthine. They've only found the rotting bodies of men torn limb from limb and a clearing of charred tree stumps. Neither Anders nor Justice were among the dead."

[diaspora2k5]

Straight from the wiki:

"Events after Awakening

(...)

Anders had discussed with Justice about the oppression of mages, and had been contemplating being more proactive in righting the injustice of the Circle of Magi. One day, Justice, Anders, and several other Wardens were sent on an assignment.

A former templar, Rolan, infiltrates the Grey Warden ranks to keep a close watch on Anders. After Anders allows Justice to use his body as a host, Rolan accuses him of becoming an abomination and brings the templars down on him, stating that the Wardens agreed with the decision. Anders kills Rolan, the templars, and the Wardens and flees.[2] The Wardens investigated the disappearance of their missing men and tracked the missing Wardens' last camp to a forest south of Amaranthine. They've only found the rotting bodies of men torn limb from limb and a clearing of charred tree stumps. Neither Anders nor Justice were among the dead."

It doesn't seem like the Wardens had anything to do with Anders being attacked. A Templar infiltrated the Wardens, attacked him with other templars and told Anders the Wardens agreed. We don't really see the Wardens themselves at any point acting against Anders at all here.

 

I mean historically the Wardens don't even care about abominations, if any of them turn into one they just pit them against the darkspawn.

[springacres]

It doesn't seem like the Wardens had anything to do with Anders being attacked. A Templar infiltrated the Wardens, attacked him with other templars and told Anders the Wardens agreed. We don't really see the Wardens themselves at any point acting against Anders at all here.

 

I mean historically the Wardens don't even care about abominations, if any of them turn into one they just pit them against the darkspawn.

That's how I read it, too.

 

I think it's entirely possible that there is no one right answer here.  There's plenty of room for headcanon, though.

[diaspora2k5]

I feel like if you have to infiltrate them they may not agree to your methods.

[springacres]

I feel like if you have to infiltrate them they may not agree to your methods.

Or they would have objected to the Chantry undermining their authority.  Certainly I suspect the First Warden would feel that way if word of this ever reached Weisshaupt.

[RoseLawliet]

Both the Chantry and the Grey Wardens are above the laws of nations, right? So in a situation like this, where normal laws and spheres of influence don't really apply, who outranks the other? I imagine most Thedosians would say the Chantry gets the last word for historical reasons, but what about someone who doesn't recognize Chantry authority?

 

Originally I started wondering about this because of Anders' situation and how an actual templar got into the Wardens' ranks, but... How great would it be if the Warden-Commander conscripted the Chantry leadership?

[RoseLawliet]

Or they would have objected to the Chantry undermining their authority.  Certainly I suspect the First Warden would feel that way if word of this ever reached Weisshaupt.

 

Interesting, as I feel it was the First Warden (supposedly aspiring to be a political figure) who worked with the Chantry to make this ambush happen. There wouldn't be any undermining since it was a mutual decision, and, if everything went according to plan, there would be no witnesses not on their side. In my version of Thedas, this was necessary because my Warden was not fond of the Chantry. At all.

As a side note, the conversation we could have with Wynne in Awakening ended up being hilarious in hindsight for me. It basically went like this:

Wynne: The fraternities are being childish and talking about independence again.

Anders: Why would they do that? That can only lead to trouble.

Warden: It's about time the mages fought to free themselves.

Wynne: A change like this can't be forced!

Warden: Then mages will never be free.

[springacres]

Interesting, as I feel it was the First Warden (supposedly aspiring to be a political figure) who worked with the Chantry to make this ambush happen. There wouldn't be any undermining since it was a mutual decision, and, if everything went according to plan, there would be no witnesses not on their side. In my version of Thedas, this was necessary because my Warden was not fond of the Chantry. At all.

This raises an interesting question in and of itself, namely, why the First Warden would try to undermine or even possibly antagonize their own subordinate.  It also begs the question as to whether or not this was a policy instituted throughout Thedas as an attempt to bring the Wardens under Chantry control.  Otherwise, that's a lot of effort just to keep one Ferelden apostate under control.

 

My Warden is not particularly fond of the Chantry, either.  (I wonder why, given that he's a part Dalish elvhen mage...)  I can see him accepting the decision, but I can also see him asking Nathaniel or one of the other recruits to keep a surreptitious watch on Rolan.  He despises blood mages and abominations, but he defines those categories rather more narrowly than the Chantry would, and he wouldn't entirely trust a former templar around Anders anyway.

[diaspora2k5]

Interesting, as I feel it was the First Warden (supposedly aspiring to be a political figure) who worked with the Chantry to make this ambush happen. There wouldn't be any undermining since it was a mutual decision, and, if everything went according to plan, there would be no witnesses not on their side. In my version of Thedas, this was necessary because my Warden was not fond of the Chantry. At all.

As a side note, the conversation we could have with Wynne in Awakening ended up being hilarious in hindsight for me. It basically went like this:

Wynne: The fraternities are being childish and talking about independence again.

Anders: Why would they do that? That can only lead to trouble.

Warden: It's about time the mages fought to free themselves.

Wynne: A change like this can't be forced!

Warden: Then mages will never be free.

The reason I'd disagree with this is that Anders was conscripted. Wardens who are fiercely independent, and this goes double for a First Warden that's ambitious- wouldn't allow their conscription authority be undermined. Incidentally, if the First Warden authorized it, I don't think it would have been an infiltration.

[RoseLawliet]

This raises an interesting question in and of itself, namely, why the First Warden would try to undermine or even possibly antagonize their own subordinate.  It also begs the question as to whether or not this was a policy instituted throughout Thedas as an attempt to bring the Wardens under Chantry control.  Otherwise, that's a lot of effort just to keep one Ferelden apostate under control.

 

 

Well, also: how much would the rest of the Wardens trust a Hero of Ferelden who killed the archdemon and lived? That someone is supposed to die in order to kill the archdemon was presented to us as a fact, yet we can very easily avoid that. Do you think that Weisshaupt would just let such a person continue on their darkspawn-fighting, king-killing apostate-recruiting way without being suspicious at the very least? I admit it's unlikely that Bioware wrote anything from this particular angle, but such is the curse of headcanon.

[springacres]

Well, also: how much would the rest of the Wardens trust a Hero of Ferelden who killed the archdemon and lived? That someone is supposed to die in order to kill the archdemon was presented to us as a fact, yet we can very easily avoid that. Do you think that Weisshaupt would just let such a person continue on their darkspawn-fighting, king-killing apostate-recruiting way without being suspicious at the very least? I admit it's unlikely that Bioware wrote anything from this particular angle, but such is the curse of headcanon.

Good point.  It's hard to imagine the Wardens being in much of a position to argue this, what with the goings-on around Corypheus and the Architect, but of course neither the Warden nor Alistair would be in a position to know anything about Corypheus, and the Warden would only learn about such things if s/he spared the Architect, but still.  Alistair actually brings up the Wardens' suspicions if you both survive the Blight.  It just hadn't occurred to me that the First Warden's actions in regards to that suspicion might include allowing templar infiltration of the Wardens.  Doesn't fit with my headcanon, but as you say, such is the curse.

 

Ah, gotta love universes with plenty of room for multiple headcanons.

[Qun00]

Now think of how damaged is the Warden's reputation in Weisshaupt if he has defied all known lore on the archdemons by surviving through the Dark Ritual AND spared the Architect.

He should be this close to getting kicked out.

Even if there technically aren't any consequences, that doesn't seem like a good combination of choices.

[Illegitimus]

I've been kind of assuming the Hero of Ferelden was gone by the time this stuff happened to Anders.

[springacres]

I've been kind of assuming the Hero of Ferelden was gone by the time this stuff happened to Alistair.  

You mean Anders?

 

And yeah, I suppose that would make sense - IF DA2 Act 1 didn't take place so soon after the events of Awakening.  Though my Warden did get hustled off to the Deep Roads again after dealing with the Architect, so I suppose he could have been incommunicado and someone made the decision on his behalf.

[RoseLawliet]

Have we decided who Anders' friend in Amaranthine is? The one he gave his cat to? When I heard that the first time, I thought it was my Warden. But then I thought it could have been Nathaniel. Only problems are Nathaniel could be dead, and even if he isn't, there's not a single mention of that miraculous fur ball in Finding Nathaniel.

Back on topic, more or less (might have to squint), it sounds like Nathaniel knew about the merging of Anders and Justice. The short story made it sound like everyone who could have known about it got killed. As a further caveat, Anders has banter with Bethany(?) saying he left the Wardens because they didn't approve of him merging with Justice, like he actually reported back after the templar ambush. Am I muddling things that don't need to be muddled, or is this inconsistent writing?

[springacres]

My Warden certainly would have taken Ser Pounce-a-Lot in - cats are great for keeping mice and rats out of granaries and pantries, after all.  But I suspect the friend BioWare meant was Namaya.

 

As for who else could have known about Anders and Justice merging, the short story simply says that everyone who witnessed the merging was killed.  It suggests, but doesn't actually say, that Anders didn't tell anyone else what had happened.  The banter about the Wardens not approving was most likely intended as a reference to Rolan's comment in the short story - although Anders does also mention trying to plant rumors about where he went, so who knows?