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[Squeets]

After ME1... I always assumed there had to be some deus ex machina at the end of the trilogy... It took two powerful fleets to barely defeat a single Reaper... So I assumed that when thousands of Reapers finally showed up, it was going to take more than military might to defeat them...

 

I didn't particularly like the ending of the trilogy, but its understandable and it would make no sense to me if you won via your fleet defeating the Reaper fleet(s)... I personally would have preferred the above mentioned plot device be something other than a plan for some random machine, found randomly on Mars, that randomly interacts with the Citadel for some random reason, that randomly includes some random AI that takes the form of a child, etc, etc... Something that actually made sense within the bounds of the plot... But alas...

 

But ME2... I thought the whole thing was pretty dumb. Both back when I experienced the first time and in retrospect. It had a great set up... The story and intrigue along the way were fantastic (as was the story along the way in ME3). By intrigue I mean the not-knowing along the way... Why were the humans being abducted? Who were the collectors, etc...But then you get to the end it was just absurd, in my opinion...

 

The collectors being Protheans was a nice surprise... But the whole human Reaper... Come on... A giant human shaped Reaper with human juice inside it?  All of that suspense and that good build up to have the collectors and by proxy the Reapers stealing precious bodily fluids of humans to make a human Reaper?

 

 

Anyone else find ME2's ending to be absurd, more so than even ME3's?

[fraggle]

Well they seem to always build a Reaper mirroring the image of the harvested species, but this is only the core inside. The outer shell of the Reaper would've still looked like all the others. And the juice thing is to preserve the species, preserve their knowledge and essence.

I'm quite indifferent about it, the only thing I didn't like was the actual boss battle with it (too tedious for me).

And then the end was so... abrupt, but I guess that's what you get when playing the middle game. Though the Arrival DLC has a great ending leading perfectly nice into ME3. Too bad I don't like it a lot and rush through every time, but it does build a nice bridge.

[Gago]

To me the whole plot in ME2 with the Collectors was kinda weird but I rolled with it. After all BW plots take the seat behind the BW characters and that was true for ME2.

[Naphtali]

is there a thumbs down button anywhere?

[Tim van Beek]

Well they seem to always build a Reaper mirroring the image of the harvested species, but this is only the core inside. The outer shell of the Reaper would've still looked like all the others. 

Is that too in the codex somewhere? I always assumed that someone had the idea that the Reapers should mirror the image of the harvested species (which is mentioned somewhere ingame), and that that got cut due to production problems, so that all of them look alike. Just another inconsistency, like the confusion about "Reapers destroy all organic life", which is said by characters who already know that the Reapers only harvest advanced species, and written by the narrator although players already know better (see text box in the ME:3 opening).

 

(Nota bene: Claims that the text box is written by an unreliable narrator, which indicates that ME:3 is a postmodern work, will not be engaged constructively by me in this thread.)

 

 

Anyone else find ME2's ending to be absurd, more so than even ME3's?

 

No, because:

 

1. ME:2 makes some leaps that are normal for an action movie. The Normandy can destroy a Collector ship? A bunch of people can destroy the whole base? Well, action movie!

 

2. Stuff that we don't understand and that seemingly does not make any sense (like: "Why do the Collectors try to build a Reaper?") are never explained. Shepard does not find out and neither do we. So: mystery.

 

The ME:3 ending breaks its own narrative, contradicts itself and ME lore etc. etc. Has been discussed extensively already.

 

For example, I don't think anyone would get the idea that the ME:2 ending has to be a dream, because it breaks (its own) realism.

[fraggle]

Is that too in the codex somewhere? I always assumed that someone had the idea that the Reapers should mirror the image of the harvested species (which is mentioned somewhere ingame), and that that got cut due to production problems, so that all of them look alike. Just another inconsistency, like the confusion about "Reapers destroy all organic life", which is said by characters who already know that the Reapers only harvest advanced species, and written by the narrator although players already know better (see text box in the ME:3 opening).

 

Not sure tbh and I'm not home right now to check it, but here's where I got it from originally:

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

[Tim van Beek]

Not sure tbh and I'm not home right now to check it, but here's where I got it from originally:

http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

Thanks, that's an interesting link. So that question is answered. I'm sure Mac made that up ad hoc  but it works  .

 

The collectors being Protheans was a nice surprise... But the whole human Reaper... Come on... A giant human shaped Reaper with human juice inside it?  All of that suspense and that good build up to have the collectors and by proxy the Reapers stealing precious bodily fluids of humans to make a human Reaper?

fraggleblabla has answered this already, some parts of it are explained somewhat in ME:3, too.

 

Further problems are: The timeline established in the Arrival DLC nullifies any possible motivation to build a Human Reaper I can come up with. It is always simpler, faster and much more efficient for the Reapers to simply start the harvest after ME:1. Why wait for the end of ME:2?! And why where the Collectors interested in Shepard and the Normandy and its crew? Were they trying to harvest Shepard? Why did they try so hard to kill Shepard then, instead of taking him/her alive?

 

This does not bother me, because the story is mostly told by a personal narrator that takes Shepard's perspective. If Shepard gets no chance to find out, neither do we. For this reason I'd say that the ME:3 ending would make much more sense without the Catalyst scene: We simply never find out about the motivation of the Reapers etc. No explanation is better than one that does not make sense and/or is self-contradictory. 

[fraggle]

Thanks, that's an interesting link. So that question is answered. I'm sure Mac made that up ad hoc  but it works  .

 

Further problems are: The timeline established in the Arrival DLC nullifies any possible motivation to build a Human Reaper I can come up with. It is always simpler, faster and much more efficient for the Reapers to simply start the harvest after ME:1. Why wait for the end of ME:2?! And why where the Collectors interested in Shepard and the Normandy and its crew? Were they trying to harvest Shepard? Why did they try so hard to kill Shepard then, instead of taking him/her alive?

 

Maybe, I don't know If I have time and don't forget I will dig through ME2's codex entries to see if it's mentioned somewhere, hehe.

 

Weren't Reapers still in Dark Space in ME1? Sovereign was the only one left behind. And then thanks to the signal not working and not being able to use the Citadel relay, they had to travel there first?

 

I think being interested in Shepard is the case of Shepard being special again. He/She peaked the Reapers's interest, plus Shepard's a threat.

[Tim van Beek]

Weren't Reapers still in Dark Space in ME1? Sovereign was the only one left behind. And then thanks to the signal not working and not being able to use the Citadel relay, they had to travel there first?

 

I think being interested in Shepard is the case of Shepard being special again. He/She peaked the Reapers's interest, plus Shepard's a threat.

What was the plan of the Collectors? Were they supposed to build a Human Reaper that tries to invade the Citadel as Sovereign did? (Oh, BTW, why didn't Sovereign use the Collectors as allies?). How is that supposed to work? I don't know. Even if they were able to harvest Earth and complete the Reaper, how is that supposed to be successful where Sovereign failed? The element of surprise is gone, at least the harvest of Earth would probably raise some alarms...

 

Yes, the Collectors have a motivation to be interested in Shepard (TIM says so, too), but do they try to harvest him/her? For what reason? Or do they try to kill Shepard? In that case the trap on the Collector ship is comically inapt. (Inapt, well, watching countless crime shows and action movies, if I get to choose I'd like to be the guy held at gunpoint instead of being the guy holding the gun, because somehow the first guy always wins in the end .)

 

None of that really bothers me. We don't know the answers. We could ME:3-ify the ME:2 ending by putting a VI on the collector base that gets hacked by EDI, and has answers to all of that. My educated guess is that if BioWare had tried that, they would have had a answer to plot hole/new question ratio of 1:3 like in ME:3. That is every sentence of the dialogue with said VI creates on average 3 new plot holes/questions. In the end, the whole construct would have imploded just as ME:3 does. (Oh, of course one could always say that everything that the VI says is a misinformation  ).

[fraggle]

What was the plan of the Collectors? Were they supposed to build a Human Reaper that tries to invade the Citadel as Sovereign did? (Oh, BTW, why didn't Sovereign use the Collectors as allies?). How is that supposed to work? I don't know. Even if they were able to harvest Earth and complete the Reaper, how is that supposed to be successful where Sovereign failed? The element of surprise is gone, at least the harvest of Earth would probably raise some alarms...

 

Yes, the Collectors have a motivation to be interested in Shepard (TIM says so, too), but do they try to harvest him/her? For what reason? Or do they try to kill Shepard? In that case the trap on the Collector ship is comically inapt. (Inapt, well, watching countless crime shows and action movies, if I get to choose I'd like to be the guy held at gunpoint instead of being the guy holding the gun, because somehow the first guy always wins in the end .)

 

Don't know, maybe the just needed to start harvesting for... reasons. I don't remember if we were told the reason tbh.

I think Sovereign didn't use the Collectors because they were supposed to stay hidden. They're rarely seen, and then they only come out when striking shady deals to collect intel/research data of interest to them. And at that time, Sovereign still thought his plan would succeed. Maybe that failure pressured the Reapers to start acting with the Collectors to push things forward. The Collectors have some nice tools in form of the Seeker swarms after all and it should've been easy.

But not on Shepard's watch!

Their motivation... not really sure, but I think killing and harvesting is in the end the same. I think even the dead are harvested, no?

One possible reason why Shepard is because they're always interested in organics, especially if it's a really special organic that defeated Sovereign and interfered with the Reapers' plans 

They make deals with people willing to bring them "live materials" in order to study them or so. Pretty creepy stuff and anyone going as far as to sell some of their own people to the Collector's is a sick twisted weirdo in my book.

[Goodmongo]

 

2. Stuff that we don't understand and that seemingly does not make any sense (like: "Why do the Collectors try to build a Reaper?") are never explained. Shepard does not find out and neither do we. So: mystery.

 

 

Actually that is explained.  There were only two possible places where a species could be harvested and built into a Reaper.  The primary spot is the Citadel itself.  But that plan went out the window due to ME1.  So the collectors were tasked by Harbinger to start the process at their base.

 

The real hole is that only a select subset of the species is made into the Reaper.  They scan the DNA code and those that pass get liquefied and those that don't are husks.  But the Collectors were using all harvested people for the human Reaper. 

[Tim van Beek]

Actually that is explained.  There were only two possible places where a species could be harvested and built into a Reaper.  The primary spot is the Citadel itself.  But that plan went out the window due to ME1.  So the collectors were tasked by Harbinger to start the process at their base.

Okay, but the question I'm thinking about is why the Collectors had to build a Reaper at all? The Arrival DLC shows that the Reapers can start the harvest quickly without much hurdle. The surprise attack via the citadel had failed. What was the new Reaper supposed to do? Take over the citadel like Sovereign? I don't know.

 

 

The real hole is that only a select subset of the species is made into the Reaper.  They scan the DNA code and those that pass get liquefied and those that don't are husks.  But the Collectors were using all harvested people for the human Reaper. 

That's a hole? We could just say that the Reapers decide based on transportation abilities and ground troup demands. (Or maybe you have to pass the New Jersey run, punch and scream contest to qualify for the husk Deus Ex Rethought program   ).

 

Don't know...

We could start the same we did for the ME:3 ending, me aksing questions and you coming up with answers. I'll then try to get a job at BioWare for the ME Remastered project and put said VI on the collector base, just before the boss fight. I'll make it optional, so people don't have to bother with mods to get rid of it  . I'll be doomed to failure, though, because BioWare will demand that I put everything in less than 20 lines of dialogue, to make it less anticlimatic.

 

Well, let's see. 

 

Question: How are the Collectors supposed to harvest Earth, if they could not defend their own base against a frigate? Ok, it was a frigate that could reload the last savegame if it failed its mission, but still...Do they have more than one ship?

 

Answer: If we give them more than one ship, then either they are still out there after the destruction of their base (ugh, opens a can of worms), or we have to explain why the other ships were not launched to stop the Normandy. Let's go for the latter. Maybe some were out somewhere but still got destroyed when the base blew up.

 

Question: Where were those? Why did we not see them? Why did they not attack the Normandy after it crash-landed or when it fled? Why weren't the others launched after the Normandy crash-landed?

 

BioWare-Boss steps in: Stop, you are already on level three of the dialogue tree. Also, you need to coordinate with our head writer, you can't just make this stuff up all by yourself.

 

BioWare head writer: You know what? Nowhere in my contract does it say that I have to answer all those questions for you, as a storyteller. If players get to the climax, and instead of "OMG, Grunt, get that out of my face!!!" they go like "Why does this happen? What does that mean?" then somethings's wrong with the game anyway.  

 

Ugh, maybe BioWare does not need me after all...

[themikefest]

Question: How are the Collectors supposed to harvest Earth, if they could not defend their own base against a frigate? Ok, it was a frigate that could reload the last savegame if it failed its mission, but still...Do they have more than one ship?

According to James, there is another collector ship. On the dreadnought mission, he says it reminds him of the collector ship he destroyed. At the time I was only aware of the one ship the collectors had, and that was destroyed in ME2. It takes Bioware 6 months to release a cartoon with James in it to explain the other collector ship

[Goodmongo]

Okay, but the question I'm thinking about is why the Collectors had to build a Reaper at all? The Arrival DLC shows that the Reapers can start the harvest quickly without much hurdle. The surprise attack via the citadel had failed. What was the new Reaper supposed to do? Take over the citadel like Sovereign? I don't know.

 

 

That's a hole? We could just say that the Reapers decide based on transportation abilities and ground troup demands. (Or maybe you have to pass the New Jersey run, punch and scream contest to qualify for the husk Deus Ex Rethought program   ).

 

 

It's a hole because the game specifically says that not all people are picked for the Reaper.  They have to go through a DNA check and meet some criteria.  The game says that taking over a planet is not the same as harvesting for a Reaper.  Only the humans were being harvested to make a Reaper.  Turians and others were not.  So it doesn't have to do with logistics or location.

 

Not to mention that the primary and only location to harvest was the Citadel.  That was lost in ME1 so the collectors opened up a new place to harvest.  All of their previous DNA testing was probably done to see which race the Reapers wanted from this cycle.

 

Then with the collector base gone the Citadel was once again needed to create the new Reaper.  The Arrival DLC was not creating a new Reaper.

[Reorte]

ME2's SM mission was progressing very well for me, a real rollercoaster ride - until the big reveal of the Reaper Baby. It rather fell apart at that point. The logic really wasn't any better than ME3's ending but it had the advantage that everyone knew it wouldn't be the end and didn't really change anything, so was easier to shrug off, ignore, and move on from.

[Jukaga]

Other than the boss battle, the only thing that really bothers me is the hand waved retcon of suddenly having millions of humans spread around the terminus systems in developed colonies less than two years after humans were colonizing the traverse at the edge of council space. Horizon and it's prefabs would have been fine, but planet after planet chock full of humans was too much to take. Mass effects biggest mistake was starting the story thirty years after first contact, it should have been a century or two, or they should have stuck with the original frontier setting of ME1.

[Excella Gionne]

ME2's plot in relevancy was irrelevant. ME could have done well without the whole Collectors plot, but that would mean the other characters would need to be introduced differently, and the plot of ME2 would need to be different. Killing Shepard off for 2 years was already a sign of rushing the series forward.

[Goodmongo]

Well one thing that really works is removing Shepard for the 2 years.  Without Shepard the galaxy relaxed and forgot about the Reapers.  Shepard was no longer there to push it.  So something has to happen to cause a multi-year delay in doing nothing to prepare for the Reapers.

[N172]

Okay, but the question I'm thinking about is why the Collectors had to build a Reaper at all? The Arrival DLC shows that the Reapers can start the harvest quickly without much hurdle. The surprise attack via the citadel had failed. What was the new Reaper supposed to do? Take over the citadel like Sovereign? I don't know.

That is because the whole ME2 "collectors building a human reaper"-plot was part of a storyline that never got continued in ME3 at all.
AFAIK:
In that plot the reapers assume that they only need the help of the humans (in the form of another reaper) to solve a problem with dark energy that whould otherwise lead to the destruction of the universe.
The foreshadowings for this are given by Veetor on Freedoms Progress and Tali on Haestrom.
Bioware trying to stick ME2 and ME3 together might be one of the major reasons of many of ME3's issues, especially the ending.

[themikefest]

ME2's plot in relevancy was irrelevant. ME could have done well without the whole Collectors plot, but that would mean the other characters would need to be introduced differently, and the plot of ME2 would need to be different. Killing Shepard off for 2 years was already a sign of rushing the series forward.

They could've made the collectors a big side mission and have the main mission going to darkspace.

 

I agree that there was no reason to have Shepard killed at the beginning of ME2

[fraggle]

snip

 

Such sarcasm, but... nice one. Had me laugh

[Tim van Beek]

According to James, there is another collector ship. On the dreadnought mission, he says it reminds him of the collector ship he destroyed. At the time I was only aware of the one ship the collectors had, and that was destroyed in ME2. It takes Bioware 6 months to release a cartoon with James in it to explain the other collector ship.

Okay, but that is hindsight. After the destruction of the collector base, it would be a very natural question for Shepard to ask TIM: "BTW, do they have other ships that are still out there? What about them? Maybe you should warn your rescue team that is supposed to collect the remains?". Anyway, my point is: There are a lot of open questions that a writer could try to address, or mysteriously hint at, but it certainly is a good idea not to try that ME:3 style, with a single scene with 20 lines of dialogue on the collector base before the final boss fight...

 

Hm, must have missed that line, but I did the dreadnought mission with James once. "Sparks".

 

That is because the whole ME2 "collectors building a human reaper"-plot was part of a storyline that never got continued in ME3 at all.
...

A good point, but my claim is that having the reapers wait in dark space for several years while the collectors build a human reaper does not make any sense without taking ME:3 into account. Why would they do that? Of course ME:3 could have tried to make sense of that retroactively, although I have no idea how.

 

 

It's a hole because the game specifically says that not all people are picked for the Reaper.  They have to go through a DNA check and meet some criteria.  The game says that taking over a planet is not the same as harvesting for a Reaper.  Only the humans were being harvested to make a Reaper.  Turians and others were not.  So it doesn't have to do with logistics or location.

 

Not to mention that the primary and only location to harvest was the Citadel.  That was lost in ME1 so the collectors opened up a new place to harvest.  All of their previous DNA testing was probably done to see which race the Reapers wanted from this cycle.

 

Then with the collector base gone the Citadel was once again needed to create the new Reaper.  The Arrival DLC was not creating a new Reaper.

1. I still don't get why it is a plot hole or needs to be explained that some humans are turned into husks and some are processed for the reaper? The greatest percentage of humanity is seemingly simply killed, it would seem.  

 

2. Okay, the reapers have decided to build one new reaper in the current cycle, and it will be a human one, I get that. All other advanced species will simply be destroyed. Now my question still stands: After the destruction of Sovereign, why do the reapers wait in dark space for the collectors to finish the human reaper instead of starting the harvest immediatly the way they do in the arrival DLC?

 

The arrival DLC says that it is not a significant hurdle that the reapers did not start the harvest from the citadel. They can do without. What was the human reaper supposed to do that the collectors could not do themselves for the harvest? Was it supposed to take over the citadel like Sovereign? That does not make much sense. It has lost the element of surprise. It cannot prepare the attack for centuries, finding/indoctrinating allies. It probably cannot use the conduit, as that has been revealed to the council. It will face a tougher opposition as some groups have learned and are learning from the last attack (see the Normandy upgrades).

 

I can't make any sense of it. But ME:2 lets me forget about it, because it does not conjure up a new character in the last scene on the collector base, that tries to come up with an explanation that manages to be contrived, self-contradictory and vague all at the same time and raises a factor of 5 more questions than it tries to answer. And that's why I dislike the ME:3 ending and not the ME:2 ending.

 

 

Such sarcasm, but... nice one. Had me laugh

Glad it worked to some extend  . Unfortunately, there are no markers for irony or sarcasm like for "direct speech". The German writer Jean Paul once proposed to mark irony in a similar way, because too many readers miss it. We'll probably never know if he meant that ironically or in earnest.      

[aoibhealfae]

What I really don't get.... why Husks and Human Reaper were all anatomically male....? The Collectors doesn't discriminate, they take females and children too. And wouldn't it be way easier to just clone humans rather than kidnapping hundred thousands of people just to use them as biological sludge.

 

Same goes with the beginning of ME2 that show the reconstruction of a male Shepard as default. No. There's no such thing as gender-neutral skeleton, it was a male body. Even The Fifth Element did it right.

 

But ME2 was generally hard on my suspension of disbelief. Shepard died and then came alive and after a few seconds, s/he is in fighting shape.. with a frickin 3D-printed body!! No bedsores or cramps or muscle wasting and what not. Plain laziness and space magic everywhere...

 

(Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game. But I still think its overrated...)

[Vanilka]

They could've made the collectors a big side mission and have the main mission going to darkspace.

 

How dare you give me these ideas? I would have loved that.

[Dantriges]

The Collectors doesn't discriminate, they take females and children too. And wouldn't it be way easier to just clone humans rather than kidnapping hundred thousands of people just to use them as biological sludge.

 

Essence, lifeforce...yeah...they need our souls.

Seems that they also do mind upload and well clones are probably not prime material for that , even if they have the original´s memories.