113 réponses à ce sujet

[Nixou]

Normally she would have been the first to put an arrow to his face for what he has done. But because she knows him she's all for forgiveness al of a sudden

 

 

Yeah, Sera is big on the double-standard thing

[Korva]

The real reason anyone gives two craps about this, is that blackwall has a conscience about these deaths, while the rest of your companions have no regrets about the innocent deaths their actions have caused.

 

Some do, especially Cole. Still, yes, it has been said before that Blackwall's stark guilt and shame make him vulnerable, which attracts condemnation and vilification in a way that even flat-out evil characters rarely do. Hell, Bioware has written characters who wax nostalgic about warmongery and genocide (Canderous), caring for nothing but themselves and advocate for every atrocity under the sun (Morrigan), or are even written as "ha ha, butchering people is so funny" comic relief (HK-47, Black Whirlwind) yet are and always have been hugely popular. It's easy to kick someone who's already down. It's equally easy to get swept up in the "k3wlness" of people who brazenly don't give a sh*t about others.

 

Rainier was guilty without ifs and buts. He was there, he heard the kids, he did nothing to stop it and ran away instead, leaving both the family to die and his soldiers to be executed. He was a willing pawn in the Game, and under other circumstances he would have gotten a medal and a promotion for his deeds. Still, he had enough of a conscience to realize his guilt, even if it was too little too late, and has spent quite a lot of time trying to atone. Even in atonement Blackwall remains deeply flawed, and I actually like that because it makes him a very "human" character among the various larger-than-life ones. I gave him freedom as a sort of "harsh mercy": the promo material called him "the Resolve", and I wanted to see how strong that resolve to atone truly is. No lies to shield him, no bonds to hold him but his own conscience. Having him horribly killed in front of a sadistically screaming crowd would not fix anything, nor would making him my thrall. And giving him to an organization that ... does not exactly have a clean slate either struck me as a very bad idea.

 

He's not exactly my favourite character, but his big secret actually made him more interesting to me than he was before. And his conversations with more-spirit-Cole are deeply touching and convinced me that he truly is changed man ... even though he remains flawed.

[9TailsFox]

There should not have been an option to have Blackwall get off scot-free.

 

Every choice should have mandated some sort of penance, at minimum. And more than just 'internal penance' or whatever.

According to you we should let Celine die and gaspard to. Basically we should just let Sera have fun in winter palace.

[9TailsFox]

Nothing, there is nothing left to punish.

 

Blackwall: Cole, if you knew what I am, what I'd done, why didn't you tell the others?
Cole: Everyone hides dead things. Everyone pretends. You wanted to fix it.
Blackwall: I'm a murderer.
Cole: You don't want to be. You made a new you. You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier.
Blackwall: If only that were possible.
Cole: You would stand between Rainier and the carriage. But you can't. It doesn't work like that.
Cole: So you carry the bodies to remember.
Blackwall: I suppose I do.

 

Everyone judge Blakwall. It will be fun then Inqusitor will be judged for his/her crimes. everyone will be, you idiots I am save you, I am Inquisitor I am above law.

Everyone who let Celine die, accomplices to murder. Or Sera personal quest Let Sera kill Noble. And so on and on. Inquisitors crime list is so long Blakwall is saint.

[Akrabra]

I forgave him and let him be Rainier once again. I feel people deserve second chances, and he was not a bad person, he was just a person. Also him taking on that persona again is still a punishment, he wanted to get away from that and now he has to deal with it and move on. 

[9TailsFox]

Double post.

[Dieb]

Make him shave his beard off - worst punishment imaginable.

 

Awesomeness -100

 

Woah, easy now, Kimosabe!

 

All he did was having people slaughter an innocent family.

[jones81381]

 

Yeah, Sera is big on the double-standard thing

 

 

Not really. Blackwall killed a noble (and family), the same people that Sera is always trying to stick it to. Even the kids, if left alone, would have probably grown up to be snotty assholes just like most nobles do.

[Tony208]

I let him rot in prison or exile him along with the other Wardens. He's a coward and his warden relic quest pissed me off even more. He wanted to be there when you found them so he could take them into possession right away and so the inquisitor would have to rely on him for everything about the Wardens and wouldn't discover anything to expose him. 

[TK514]

Some do, especially Cole. Still, yes, it has been said before that Blackwall's stark guilt and shame make him vulnerable, which attracts condemnation and vilification in a way that even flat-out evil characters rarely do. Hell, Bioware has written characters who wax nostalgic about warmongery and genocide (Canderous), caring for nothing but themselves and advocate for every atrocity under the sun (Morrigan), or are even written as "ha ha, butchering people is so funny" comic relief (HK-47, Black Whirlwind) yet are and always have been hugely popular. It's easy to kick someone who's already down. It's equally easy to get swept up in the "k3wlness" of people who brazenly don't give a sh*t about others.

 

Rainier was guilty without ifs and buts. He was there, he heard the kids, he did nothing to stop it and ran away instead, leaving both the family to die and his soldiers to be executed. He was a willing pawn in the Game, and under other circumstances he would have gotten a medal and a promotion for his deeds. Still, he had enough of a conscience to realize his guilt, even if it was too little too late, and has spent quite a lot of time trying to atone. Even in atonement Blackwall remains deeply flawed, and I actually like that because it makes him a very "human" character among the various larger-than-life ones. I gave him freedom as a sort of "harsh mercy": the promo material called him "the Resolve", and I wanted to see how strong that resolve to atone truly is. No lies to shield him, no bonds to hold him but his own conscience. Having him horribly killed in front of a sadistically screaming crowd would not fix anything, nor would making him my thrall. And giving him to an organization that ... does not exactly have a clean slate either struck me as a very bad idea.

 

He's not exactly my favourite character, but his big secret actually made him more interesting to me than he was before. And his conversations with more-spirit-Cole are deeply touching and convinced me that he truly is changed man ... even though he remains flawed.

 

This was a fantastic post.

[ZombiePopper]

I always give him to the GW's.
He impersonated a GW for years, lived off of it and hid behind it.
Making him a GW forces him to earn it/pay for it.
Plus most GW's are criminals anyway looking for a second chance, just like Blackwall.
There's no guarantee he'd survive the joining anyway, so it could be a death sentence.
But Blackwall's remorse is the deciding factor for me.
Many characters in the game show no remorse, like the lady from Sahrnia in EDL (don't recall her name now). I make her use her money to rebuild the town, and IF the people are satisfied, then she's free, if not....well we don't get that option. But her lack of remorse makes me want to infect her with red lyrium.

[jones81381]

Ok so I'm on my second playthrough and just met Blackwall and omg, the look in his eyes when he's talking about the wardens and says "Grey Wardens can inspire, make you better than you think you are." I can see the guilt and regret in his face when he says it. It's amazing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pardoned him pretty much all the time.

 

It's hypocritical to accept leliana, zevran, sten, morrigan and the rest of your companions who are murderers and then kill blackwall. Takes absolutely no self awareness. 

 

I wasn't aware the Inquisitor had a choice to take Leliana, Zevran, Sten, and Morrigan as companions- or even knew of their crimes?

[Dabrikishaw]

The statement's about player hypocrisy.

[jones81381]

I wasn't aware the Inquisitor had a choice to take Leliana, Zevran, Sten, and Morrigan as companions- or even knew of their crimes?

 

I know for a fact the player has a choice regarding Sten and Zevran and the player knows what Sten did and knows what Zevran is. If you talk to Sten while in the cage he tells you about the family he slaughtered, including the children and Zevran is an assassin who tries to kill the player so the player knows what he is and can assume he has murdered innocent people. I don't think the player knows anything about Leliana prior to recruitment other than that she is a chantry sister and as best I recall we don't have a choice in taking Morrigan. 

[Bfler]

Why should I relinquish a core char. There can always be an interesting quest or important decision/event in a DLC or a future part of the game, where you need him, e.g. if the PC isn't a warrior and Cassandra becomes Divine you have no 1h-shild tank left.

[Eelectrica]

Me it's simple, wardens joining. We need more Wardens, he would have been a Warden had fate not interfered.

Having him executed does me no good, and I could care less about the hurt feelings of a few Orlesions. I saved them, they owe me.

[Deztyn]

I am the Herald of Andraste. 20 chants of light and you are forgiven. Don't forget to donate on the way out.

Hmmmm....

You know that the full Chant of Light takes weeks to recite?

I approve of that punishment. Especially if he's not allowed food or water while reciting it.

Pardoned him pretty much all the time.

It's hypocritical to accept leliana, zevran, sten, morrigan and the rest of your companions who are murderers and then kill blackwall. Takes absolutely no self awareness.

One of the key differences between Thom and those companions is that at no point does any legal authority attempt to bring them to justice. Even Sten was just going to be left in that cage rather than properly tried and sentenced.

As the Inquisitor you have to actively prevent justice from being carried out, rather than just failing to seek out justice on the behalf of others (which the games don't allow us to do anyway)

He was told by the noble that doing this was righteous.

No.

That is what Thom told his men.

Blackwall also made a mistake, he trusted the wrong man and innocents payed for it.

Thom knew he was committing treason for money. His men made the mistake of trusting him.

That is my take on it too. Our characters massacre humans, giants, and nugs on a daily basis. Some, like Leliana and Zevran, are cold-blooded assassins. Others like Isabela can easily let a city burn if it means no consequences for them. To say nothing of Anders.

To accept them, then get all high and mighty on Blackwall is hypocritical. He has spent years attempting to atone for his actions. He is there, fighting with he Inquisition when he in fact has few obligations to. Cole search his mind and affirms that the Blackwall of today would stop the Thom Rainier of yore from killing those children. To me, that's enough to keep him.

Thom is guilty of the crime he has been accused of and Orlais has the right to prosecute him for it. Feeling bad about it after the fact is not enough to exonerate him. You don't get community service for treason and murder.

Also I looked up the banter, Cole says nothing about the children singing the song, rather that they knew it, which is completely different.

That's one banter.

Cole: Mockingbird, mockingbird, quiet and still, what do you see from the top of that hill? Can you see up? Can you see down?
Blackwall: Wait.
Cole: Can you see the dead things all about town?
Blackwall: How do you know that song?
Cole: It just came to me. Everyone says everyone knows it. The children knew it.

This is another:

Blackwall: You, who heal the helpless... you're not angry about what I was hiding?
Cole: You never hid from me.
Cole: "Mockingbird, mockingbird." Too many voices in the carriage. Maker, they're young.
Cole: If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie. Cold, trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.
Blackwall: Stop. Please.

Thom was there. He was not acting as a soldier under orders from a superior. He was a mercenary killing for gold, while simultaneously committing treason against the country he was sworn to serve. He was not tricked or misled. He's very clear about that.

He did not know the children would be in the carriage when he ordered his men to attack. However, when he did know he still made a conscious choice not to interfere. He allowed his men to carry out his orders because they were tricked and misled and he feared the consequences if they realized it.

Thom did something horrific out of selfishness, greed and cowardice. Now he bitterly regrets it and wants to atone. You can choose to forgive his past based on who he is now or judge him for it in spite of the man he's become.

If you can't accept that, you are missing the point of his character, and doing him a great disservice by making excuses for him, rather than forgiving him.

I know for a fact the player has a choice regarding Sten and Zevran and the player knows what Sten did and knows what Zevran is. If you talk to Sten while in the cage he tells you about the family he slaughtered, including the children and Zevran is an assassin who tries to kill the player so the player knows what he is and can assume he has murdered innocent people. I don't think the player knows anything about Leliana prior to recruitment other than that she is a chantry sister and as best I recall we don't have a choice in taking Morrigan.

I suspect the point my beloved was making is that while some players may be hypocritical, our characters are not. Neither are the players who choose to roleplay their characters.

The Warden might sacrifice Conner to a demon for the secrets of blood magic. Hawke might cheerfully send Fenris back to his master to be mentally, physically and sexually abused (Anders: +5 Friendship). The Inquisitor may pardon Thom. However, they don't have to agree with each other's actions, and the player does not have to approve or excuse any of them even when choosing to play that way.

I think some of the companions and some of my own characters are terrible people who deserve to be punished. That does not make me a hypocrite for also enjoying some of their stories as stories.

If Thom smply confessed his crime to the Inquisitor and the Orlesian courts were never involved, I would probably choose to let him remain in the Inquisition on most playthroughs. But I have yet to play a character willing to actively abuse their authority for his sake. And as a person, I think he earned his execution and his victims and their families have the right to see justice done.

[KaiserShep]

I really would have liked to have had a discussion with Sera about the whole Blackwall situation.

 

Normally she would have been the first to put an arrow to his face for what he has done. But because she knows him she's all for forgiveness al of a sudden. Would have liked to have called her out on it. Even though I love Sera.

 

I'm not sure what the point of that would be. For one, Sera's dialogue indicates that it's Blackwall's dedication to helping people that compels her to let him off the hook, not because she knows him. If he was totally unapologetic about his actions and only acted out of selfishness from that point onward, it would be a totally different story. Secondly, it would smack of hypocrisy to get on any companion's case for forgiving Blackwall, because the only reason he's even around to be forgiven by anyone is because the Inquisitor saved him from the hangman's noose. The excuse that he was only saved because he's useful would be about as convincing as a qunari walking into Orzammar and claiming to be a paragon's great grandnephew.  

 

I rather like that there's at least one character that can talk to him after that little debacle that doesn't just get on his case. They're all killers, but they're all working toward a common goal at that point, except for maybe Solas. Who the frak knows what that guy wants. 

 

Had Sera not cut their lives short any one of her victims could have possibly turned their lives around.

That's what I wanted to call her out on. Her black and white view. Not her forgiveness of Blackwall.

 

 

The entire time the Inquisitor's known Sera, we only get to see her deal with two people directly, that Orlesian mage that was working against the Inquisitor (who we would probably have had to kill anyway), and Harmond, who casually has someone executed right in front of them, among others, the latter of which we can easily spare from her wrath. Besides, the game already has many opportunities to criticize Sera on a lot of things she says or does. It'd be kind of funny if the Inquisitor tried to call her out on this with regard to Blackwall, only to have it thrown back that Inky shouldn't have saved him if s/he felt that way.

[Lady Artifice]

Everyone judge Blakwall. It will be fun then Inqusitor will be judged for his/her crimes. everyone will be, you idiots I am save you, I am Inquisitor I am above law.

Everyone who let Celine die, accomplices to murder. Or Sera personal quest Let Sera kill Noble. And so on and on. Inquisitors crime list is so long Blakwall is saint.

 

Can be. The Inquisitor's crime list can be long. I'm working on a play through right now of an Inquisitor who's so lawful and by the book, he didn't even consider recruiting Sera, Cole, or Iron Bull for even a moment. He's boring, but very possible. 

[Nixou]

Thom is guilty of the crime he has been accused of and Orlais has the right to prosecute him for it

 

 

Technically... No: Orlais doesn't has any right to prosecute him: the Right of Conscription supersedes states laws: Blackwall (the real one) had already conscripted Thom and sent him to gather Darkspawn blood, meaning that Thom was effectively amnestied, he just didn't know it.

[KaiserShep]

Can be. The Inquisitor's crime list can be long. I'm working on a play through right now of an Inquisitor who's so lawful and by the book, he didn't even consider recruiting Sera, Cole, or Iron Bull for even a moment. He's boring, but very possible. 

 

Sounds frustrating. I don't know how long I could last with a totally lawful character. 

[Lady Artifice]

Sounds frustrating. I don't know how long I could last with a totally lawful character.

It's a speed run. I'm trying to get some tiles in the keep open that I would leave blank otherwise. I can't explain why, but having so many of them empty bugs me. A stupid lawful character was the best way that I could account for turning away all this help. Im head canoning that hes a conflicted idiot, at least. That alleviates some of the boredom.

[Navasha]

For me sending him the grey wardens is justice enough for his crimes.   That's where he would have went but for a twist of fate while on his way.  Its the option I tend to choose 90% of the time, except for when I want to see how the others play out. 

[Ferretinabun]

For me, the Problem of Rainer is simply: who has the right to judge him?

 

Rainer's crime was not against you nor the Inquisition. He is simply a criminal who is (justly) being put through Orlais' penal system. Do you have the right to interfere? Do you have the right to insist a foreign country suspend their legal processes for a notorious and high-profile criminal as a personal favour? Or worse, break him out of jail by more underhanded means (resulting in the deaths of blameless guards, or of an 'innocent' stooge)?

 

It seemed to me the answer was 'no'. So I left him to his fate. Even though I would have been lenient with him if the decision was mine. I would have judged him forgivingly, but I did not presume I had the right to judge him.