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[correctamundo]

Hmmmm....

You know that the full Chant of Light takes weeks to recite?

I approve of that punishment. Especially if he's not allowed food or water while reciting it.



One of the key differences between Thom and those companions is that at no point does any legal authority attempt to bring them to justice. Even Sten was just going to be left in that cage rather than properly tried and sentenced.

As the Inquisitor you have to actively prevent justice from being carried out, rather than just failing to seek out justice on the behalf of others (which the games don't allow us to do anyway).
 

 

First verse will suffice and of course he will be allowed food and water.

 

Sten is in custody awaiting trial and if you release him he will go free.

[Nixou]

Do you have the right to insist a foreign country suspend their legal processes for a notorious and high-profile criminal as a personal favour?

 

 

The Inquisitor doesn't have that right.

A warden constable had that right, and used it.

The thing is, you don't have to survive the Joining to be considered a Grey Warden of good standing: you just have to accept to hunt Darkspawn and drink from the damned cup: Thom Rainier was already as much a Grey Warden as the Hero of Ferelden and was pretty much legally entitled to gallivant throughout Southern Thedas presenting himself as Warden Rainier.

 

The thing about Blackwall is how similar to Origin's protagonist his situation is.

• The Warden was handpicked by Duncan, took Darkspawn blood, and barely had time to undergo the Joining before the Fereldan order was destroyed then spent the rest of the game playing the role of the de facto leader of the Grey Wardens despite having zero experience at that job.
• Thom was handpicked by Blackwall, went to take Darspawn blood, didn't have time to undergo the Joining before the real Blackwall died then spent years playing the role of a senior Grey Warden despite having zero experience at that job.

[KaiserShep]

For me, the Problem of Rainer is simply: who has the right to judge him?

 

Rainer's crime was not against you nor the Inquisition. He is simply a criminal who is (justly) being put through Orlais' penal system. Do you have the right to interfere? Do you have the right to insist a foreign country suspend their legal processes for a notorious and high-profile criminal as a personal favour? Or worse, break him out of jail by more underhanded means (resulting in the deaths of blameless guards, or of an 'innocent' stooge)?

 

It seemed to me the answer was 'no'. So I left him to his fate. Even though I would have been lenient with him if the decision was mine. I would have judged him forgivingly, but I did not presume I had the right to judge him.

 

I think this is what makes the decision so interesting. While it might seem a bit grating when Blackwall judges you for whatever means you took to get him out of prison, it's hard to deny that he has a point. 

[Ferretinabun]

 

The Inquisitor doesn't have that right.

A warden constable had that right, and used it.

 

 

That... is actually a good point. I hadn't considered that.

 

You're saying that we could, in a way, see Rainer's arrest as a legally illegitimate intrusion into his (admittedly prolonged) conscription into the Wardens?

[Nixou]

You're saying that we could, in a way, see Rainer's arrest as a legally illegitimate intrusion into his (admittedly prolonged) conscription into the Wardens?

 

 

Yes: the irony is that Rainier himself never realized that he already was a legitimate Grey Warden and spent years performing a completely unneeded imposture. Had he been aware of the fine legal details, he could have walked toward the gallows as Warden Rainier, exonerated his former soldier, then told the Orlesian magistrate that no, he couldn't arrest him because Warden Constable Gordon Blackwall had already amnestied him five years prior by conscripting him.

 

...

 

Of course, had he been aware of the fine legal details, he wouldn't have hesitated to go to the Grey Wardens fortress in Montsimmard (or in Vigil's Keep if he wanted to avoid Orlais for the time being) with his vial of Darkspawn blood and would most probably have ended either among the enthralled Wardens in Adamant or if lucky journeying with the Fereldan commander.

[Cyrus Amell]

While my Inquisitor was willing to let Ser Ruth of the Grey Wardens off scot free with an Andrastian pardon, such leniency was not possible with Rainier. An entire noble family killed, made worse by the fact that the targeted general was a supporter of Celene (who I supported), as well as an entire contingent of soldiers dishonored and made criminals whilst Rainier himself made a run for it. Making him join the Wardens seemed the fairest thing I could do, the man had already been approached for recruitment earlier and the Wardens owed me one very large favor after Adamant. Besides, it's not like the Wardens were in a position to turn down good recruits after losing most of their numbers at Adamant and in the War Table operations (successful or not). 

 

Just letting Blackwall rot in prison and from a gibblet seemed wasteful to me, he at least had the potential to redeem himself. And if he dies at the Joining, then the courts will get their corpse. 

[Korva]

Thing is, what Rainier did is not actually a problem in the "Game", provided you butcher the right victims for the right poncy bigwig. His only mistake was betting on the losing team. That is why I'm less than impressed with Orlais' "right" to sentence him, especially in the light of the sh*t we see going down at Halamshiral ... and what we know about the perfectly legal atrocities that the chevaliers routinely commit ... and the horrors of the Exalted Plains which are unlikely to ever be punished either.

 

None of that is an excuse for what he did. Of course not. It just means that Orlais' justice system is an oxymoron at best, and that the bigwigs demanding his death should remember the saying about stones and glass houses because most of them are bound to be hypocrites with magnitudes more blood on their hands than he has. Granted, openly flaunting one's contempt for that corrupt system would be a very bad idea politically. But keeping this in mind as one motivation to break him out is valid, IMO. I'd rather (verbally) rip him a new one myself and keep having him atone by putting his life on the line for the safety of the world, because there is a purpose in that at least. The Inquisition is a second chance for many people, there is room in it for him as well.

 

I just wish there was more -- or hell, any! -- time and word-count dedicated to the rebuiding of trust between him and the Inquisitor. Cass has a string of really harsh banters with him, appropriately so, but with the Inquisitor it's straight from insulting us in front of everyone at Skyhold to being all buddy-buddy again without losing a breath. There is never even an acknowledgement that trust needs to be rebuilt.

[Pistolized]

1. There's a difference between what's legal, and what's right.

2. I don't think there's any indication that you can give him to the Wardens... I left him in jail because the Wardens were busy and also had zero proof that the real Blackwall had conscripted him.  There was no written record of him being a prospect or any paperwork on the conscription itself, right?

3. Well, crap.  My Blackwall's dead and he could have been a Warden...  He might have repented beyond measure, but he's still a cold blooded child-murderer, so I'm not too distraught.

[Nixou]

I left him in jail because the Wardens were busy and also had zero proof that the real Blackwall had conscripted him.

 

 

There's Cole. If Rainier had lied about it Cole would reveal it: the kid can read minds and can't keep a secret.

[CoM Solaufein]

All the more reason for Inky to kick Cole to the curb. Can't have him read the mind of Inky.

[Deebo305]

Key word there, mistake. Blackwall knew what he was doing. He didn't plan on the family being there, true, but he also didn't bother to tell his men to spare them if they happened to be there.

That hardly makes it any less inexcusable

Solas: "Sorry I goofed Inquisitor, Corypheus just had such an honest face "

Yea no sorry, hes no better than Blackwall. On to Blackwall himself, All punishment are valid imo but for most part. Joining the Wardens is the best option, they are basically the Night Watch of DA, he'd fit right in

[Wynterdust]

Sten, Morrigan, Leliana, Solas, Cole, Loghain, Anders, Fenris, Merrill, Shale, Sera, Zevran, Isabella, not forgetting the HoF, Hawke and the Quizzy....

 

Wonder how many of those were spared or excused by the same people condemning Rainier to death.

[BigBrolly]

I just want to toss out what I did....I made a complete a**hole inky....female mortalitasi....I set out to be as much as a jerk as possible, so my suggestion, if you do an a**hole run, is to get in a relationship with him because when it comes up in the prison he tells you how you loved him, but you can respond, "I never loved you" and it is the absolute best (worst?)....I gave an audible gasp when it played out...and then of course I used Leliana to get him back bc they execute someone else in his place, and then I enslave him to the inquisition...seriously, the whole "doing a complete jerk run" was so worth it for how this played out

[Dean_the_Young]

Meh. Personally, I didn't see a compelling reason to break him out of jail. I can see why some people would want to- why some people would feel it was deserved- but I've never felt anything compelling.

 

He did a serious wrong- no one disputes this. The Orlesian justice system, as corrupt as it (and the rest of Thedas) is, has a legitimate claim to him- he doesn't dispute this. The Wardens, whatever legal immunity or absolution he might have had as the recruited Reneer, don't have much a claim on him (or vice versa) considering he deliberatly deceived everyone about his identity and association. And, this is important, he desires being accountable and doesn't dispute the legitimacy of the Orlesian system.

 

If this were a sham trial, or a fake crime, or a railroaded system, or he had a compelling argument that this was an illegitimate thing, I could see breaking him free as an arguably necessary way to achieve some sort of impartial justice. But it's not- the Orlesian justice system and the Game may be corrupt as hell, but they're square on the money in this case, and he knows it, and he accepts it. The system as a whole being corrupt doesn't mean that every instance is, or that more corruption is validated. You don't justify wrongdoing on the basis that everyone else does it.

 

I don't really believe in spite-justice, where denying someone their wants is the basis for justice, so I don't really see a point in NOT leaving him to his earned circumstances. He can't even claim to being necessary or remarkably advantageous to the Inquisition's 'save the world' agenda.