170 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

That wouldn't be necessary under the radial wheel system.

Perhaps not, depending how cooldowns work.

[Elhanan]

Perhaps not, depending how cooldowns work.

Also prefer to play the game I have in front of me....

[Bowie Hawkins]

Also prefer to play the game I have in front of me....

 

I'd prefer a version of the game that doesn't set needless limitations on how many things I can do, especially since the first game didn't do that.

[Elhanan]

I'd prefer a version of the game that doesn't set needless limitations on how many things I can do, especially since the first game didn't do that.

And we are not playing that game. One may prefer to have certain features from a previous product, but that does not equate to this topic of current play.

[Kierro Ren]

I really don't see how it's boring. I quite enjoy the playing a mage. I'll admit, no melee was a bad idea, because I'm constantly having a straggler attacking me. Other then that, I love the mage in DAI.

[Bowie Hawkins]

And we are not playing that game. One may prefer to have certain features from a previous product, but that does not equate to this topic of current play.

 

And because we are not playing that game, pointing out that that game would be better than the one we are playing is an entirely valid response to it.

 

Especially since the topic is titled "Mages are so boring, as is combat in general", and the game we are playing artificially limiting player choices during play is a not inconsiderable part of why the person who created this topic did so, if the fact that they wrote "I think mainly it's the lack of spells - endless repetition of the same 3 or 4 attacks bores the snot out of me" is anything to judge by. So how about you drop the condescension?

[Elhanan]

And because we are not playing that game, pointing out that that game would be better than the one we are playing is an entirely valid response to it.
 
Especially since the topic is titled "Mages are so boring, as is combat in general", and the game we are playing artificially limiting player choices during play is a not inconsiderable part of why the person who created this topic did so, if the fact that they wrote "I think mainly it's the lack of spells - endless repetition of the same 3 or 4 attacks bores the snot out of me[/size] " is anything to judge by. So how about you drop the condescension?

Because I refuse the premise of the OP; tis not boring at all. Perhaps it could have been better with more Quickslots, the older tactics, etc, but the gameplay for Mages still is entertaining to many.

Mages at least have eight slots of spells (offensive or defensive), while Archers are reduced to four, and another four in support; same with 2H and possibly others. Still prefer Mages to the other classes, and still am enjoying the game nonetheless.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Because I refuse the premise of the OP; tis not boring at all. Perhaps it could have been better with more Quickslots, the older tactics, etc, but the gameplay for Mages still is entertaining to many.

Mages at least have eight slots of spells (offensive or defensive), while Archers are reduced to four, and another four in support; same with 2H and possibly others. Still prefer Mages to the other classes, and still am enjoying the game nonetheless.

 

I'm one of the many to whom the gameplay in combat is less entertaining in Inquisition than Origins, and like I said before, being limited to 8 slots is not as good a design choice as being free to use all of the character's learned skills.

 

And also, you can disagree with an argument without being condescending to the people who are trying to discuss things in the context set in the original post of the person who made it.

[actionhero112]

Limitations are pretty arbitrary, but I find I can fit a number of abilities into 8 slots that fit every scenario. It requires planning and considerate builds, but it's definitely doable.

 

Restricting a player's abilities is a completely valid design choice meant to encourage thought when building your character. Whether or not you enjoy working within those parameters is really up the player, but Inquisition isn't the first rpg to do this and it definitely won't be the last. 

 

As for following in the footsteps of it's predecessors, well hopefully you can admit origin's combat was awful. Rogue and Warrior abilities had no depth and basically could be spammed. While in Inquisition there are abilities that do more damage when an opponent is knocked down, or has a low % of health. These kind of conditions flat out didn't exist in Origins. You threw out abilities as soon as they came off cooldown or, if they had a small aoe, maneuvered yourself so you could get the most benefit from them. That wasn't strategic or tactical. It was a spamfest. 

 

Even the Caster Mage, arguably the class with the most depth in Origins, essentially boiled down to limiting the amount of friendly fire your party would take. In inquisition we have abilties that draw enemies towards a central point (unheard of in Origins) or provide special benefits depending on that status the enemy had before hand. We have movement and kite abilities. Mages have so many more tools in Inquisition than in Origins. 

 

Don't even get me started on combos in Inquisition compared to Origins. 

 

Basically Origin's combat was bad, and definitely not the reason why Origins was successful. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Basically Origin's combat was bad, and definitely not the reason why Origins was successful.

Yet it was still far more fun to play than the boring spamfest of Inquisition, which has probably the worst combat system I've ever had the misfortune of using. I say worst because it seems to be this unhappy melding of a bunch of disparate elements of tactical and action combat, and ends up doing both poorly.

[Alley Cat]

For me, there's a huge disconnect between the combat of Origins (which was gaudy, slow, and frustrating) and the skill trees and available options (which were amazingly varied) and the access to the radial menu spells (which was in both Origins and DA2 and thus just a Dragon Age thing in general). I can't even go back and play Origins any longer because the slow combat eats away at my patience. But at the same time, being faster-paced in DA2 wasn't much of an improvement - especially with the ridiculous "enemies dropping out of thin air" mechanic it had going on during battles.

 

I like the way battle works in general in DAI. It's the lack of options with spells and the small ability limit that irks me.

 

But then, I play on casual because I'm not a fan of difficult combat and prefer the adventure and story of RPGs (odd, I know, considering I love both Mass Effect and Fallout as well; but I do play those on low difficulty so there's that). I don't appreciate having added difficulty shoehorned on top of me when it goes against what the previous games offered and makes absolutely zero sense in lore. I honestly would even be happy if it became a custom difficulty modifier of some kind. No clue if they could actually do that to DAI, though, as it would require totally reworking the radial menu to include spells and such. But for any future game/s, giving us the option of whether to be forced into that added difficulty which makes certain classes and builds less entertaining and fun would be much appreciated.

[Darkly Tranquil]

For me, there's a huge disconnect between the combat of Origins (which was gaudy, slow, and frustrating) and the skill trees and available options (which were amazingly varied) and the access to the radial menu spells (which was in both Origins and DA2 and thus just a Dragon Age thing in general). I can't even go back and play Origins any longer because the slow combat eats away at my patience. But at the same time, being faster-paced in DA2 wasn't much of an improvement - especially with the ridiculous "enemies dropping out of thin air" mechanic it had going on during battles.

Have you never played any turn based or Infinity engine RPGs? Fast combat is not necessarily good combat.

[Alley Cat]

Have you never played any turn based or Infinity engine RPGs? Fast combat is not necessarily good combat.

 

Unless VtM: Bloodlines is on the Infinity engine (I have no clue, but I don't think it is), then that's a no in general. I think it's more that I've become so used to how fast it was in DA2 and how fast it is in DAI that going back to Origins makes it feel almost as if the game is lagging when it really isn't and it's just that slow. I loved playing Origins before I got my hands on DA2, and I still love it to pieces now; I just can't bring myself to get through it again because it feels to slow now in comparison to... honestly every other game I currently play.

 

I also only have Origins on PS3, which doesn't have a tactical cam, so it was more or less a spam fest just as much as DA2 or DAI. It just had far more variety in available spells and I got used to having that as a sort of tactical strategy thing in itself, pausing with the radial menu to evaluate which spell is best suited for the situation.

[Elhanan]

Have you never played any turn based or Infinity engine RPGs? Fast combat is not necessarily good combat.

Agreed, but the sluggish pace of the default 2H in DAO can be wearing on patience until the Sunder abilities are acquired. The resultant speed is very close to what DAI has currently; the best pacing (not necessarily the best system) in the series, IMO.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Agreed, but the sluggish pace of the default 2H in DAO can be wearing on patience until the Sunder abilities are acquired. The resultant speed is very close to what DAI has currently; the best pacing (not necessarily the best system) in the series, IMO.

A lack of usable abilities at low levels is a common problem in a lot of games. Until you unlock more abilities, you are often stuck just auto attacking.

But in any case, the speed of the combat is not really the problem with DAI; it's the poor controls, lack of adequate custom AI, awkward Tac Cam, and lack of variety in spells/abilities.

[Elhanan]

A lack of usable abilities at low levels is a common problem in a lot of games. Until you unlock more abilities, you are often stuck just auto attacking.

But in any case, the speed of the combat is not really the problem with DAI; it's the poor controls, lack of adequate custom AI, awkward Tac Cam, and lack of variety in spells/abilities.

That may be one perception and opinion, but that does not equate to fact. The controls are fine for many, the AI though lesser than in the previous games does work, as does the Tac-Cam, and the variety is there, but only eight Active abilities can be chosen for a single combat. More can be chosen; simply not used in every battle.

[Darkly Tranquil]

That may be one perception and opinion, but that does not equate to fact. The controls are fine for many, the AI though lesser than in the previous games does work, as does the Tac-Cam, and the variety is there, but only eight Active abilities can be chosen for a single combat. More can be chosen; simply not used in every battle.

Of course it's an opinion. Everything everyone posts here is an opinion. Except when it's you, right Elhanan? Then it's a fact. Get over yourself.

[actionhero112]

Yet it was still far more fun to play than the boring spamfest of Inquisition, which has probably the worst combat system I've ever had the misfortune of using. I say worst because it seems to be this unhappy melding of a bunch of disparate elements of tactical and action combat, and ends up doing both poorly.

You may have fun playing an absolutely awful combat system, but that doesn't mean it's good or better than Inquisition's. 

 

The most effective dps classes in origins didn't use abilties at all and just auto'd everything to death with dual striking. 

 

Or how about Archers, whose abilities were functionally useless and was only usuable if you had the RtO dlc, even then the class didn't work with haste, the best team buff in the game. It was also more effective to just auto attack and use arrow of slaying once per fight than to actually use abilities constantly.

 

Or maybe the 2h warrior, which all you did was spam sunder arms and sunder armor over and over. Which were functionally just faster auto attacks. 

 

I'm sorry but it was awful. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

You may have fun playing an absolutely awful combat system, but that doesn't mean it's good or better than Inquisition's.

The most effective dps classes in origins didn't use abilties at all and just auto'd everything to death with dual striking.

Or how about Archers, whose abilities were functionally useless and was only usuable if you had the RtO dlc, even then the class didn't work with haste, the best team buff in the game. It was also more effective to just auto attack and use arrow of slaying once per fight than to actually use abilities constantly.

Or maybe the 2h warrior, which all you did was spam sunder arms and sunder armor over and over. Which were functionally just faster auto attacks.

I'm sorry but it was awful.

Sure, Origins combat had it's flaws, but that was as much down to bad programming as anything. With a couple of mods installed, the combat worked great and those issues were resolved. But in any case, I think DA2 actually hit the sweet spot for mechanics. The combat was faster than Origins (maybe a little too fast, if anything), the spell combos were better, and the Tactics AI was more advanced. All it needed was the full Origins tactical camera implementation and full party gear customisation it would have been perfect.

Inquisition's combat was hard to control thanks to wonky AI, constant LoS issues, and limited action bar. TacCam was far too close, frequently making it useless, the enemies had excessive health pools, making it take far too long to kill them, the attrition based damage system meant most combats were a chore than never challenged you unless you were out of potions, and the barrier spamming and guard mechanics were just a clumsy attempt to put in some defensive mechanics since they had stripped out the old healing and defensive buff mechanics they has before. Basically they tossed out everything that made DA combat like a traditional CRPG and just turned it into another videogame button masher. I guess if you like flash and action over substance, then sure, I guess it is better.

[CoM Solaufein]

This is the first time I've used a mage and I'm enjoying it. I wish there were more spell hot keys because I have to change up some spells depending on who I am fighting.

[Elhanan]

Of course it's an opinion. Everything everyone posts here is an opinion. Except when it's you, right Elhanan? Then it's a fact. Get over yourself.

A fact is that almost everyone can select more than eight Active slots, but one can use only eight per battle. This is not an opinion.

[actionhero112]

Sure, Origins combat had it's flaws, but that was as much down to bad programming as anything. With a couple of mods installed, the combat worked great and those issues were resolved. But in any case, I think DA2 actually hit the sweet spot for mechanics. The combat was faster than Origins (maybe a little too fast, if anything), the spell combos were better, and the Tactics AI was more advanced. All it needed was the full Origins tactical camera implementation and full party gear customisation it would have been perfect.

Inquisition's combat was hard to control thanks to wonky AI, constant LoS issues, and limited action bar. TacCam was far too close, frequently making it useless, the enemies had excessive health pools, making it take far too long to kill them, the attrition based damage system meant most combats were a chore than never challenged you unless you were out of potions, and the barrier spamming and guard mechanics were just a clumsy attempt to put in some defensive mechanics since they had stripped out the old healing and defensive buff mechanics they has before. Basically they tossed out everything that made DA combat like a traditional CRPG and just turned it into another videogame button masher. I guess if you like flash and action over substance, then sure, I guess it is better.

 

While I certainly don't think Inquisition has a, "good" combat system. It's certainly better than Origins or II. 

 

Origins didn't have anything like Wall of Ice and the fuctionality that provides. It had nothing like Pull of the Abyss, Grappling Chain, Fade Step or Hook and Tackle. These strategic abilities and spells make Inqusition a far better combat system than it's predecessors. Force mage had something similar to Rift Magein DA2, but that only one specialization, the rest was just fire and forget spells or fire and forget buffs. None of it had any strategic element to it whatsoever. Inquisition has much more ways to re-position your mage around the battlefield, create defensive barriers and create zones of power (abilities like Static Cage) that Origins and 2 simply lacked. 

 

Old CRPG's are largely as bad as Origins. Buff stacking and heal spamming does not make a game more strategic. They are not good combat systems. 

 

As for the availability of mods to fix Origin's combat, doesn't that speak for itself on how bad it was?  They also largely didn't fix the fact that no abilities in the Warrior or Rogue trees really had any depth to them, and they were just fancy auto attacks with maybe a cc ability or aoe attached to them. And that's not inducing tactical variety. 

[Enigmatick]

While I certainly don't think Inquisition has a, "good" combat system. It's certainly better than Origins or II. 

 

Origins didn't have anything like Wall of Ice and the fuctionality that provides. It had nothing like Pull of the Abyss, Grappling Chain, Fade Step or Hook and Tackle. These strategic abilities and spells make Inqusition a far better combat system than it's predecessors. Force mage had something similar to Rift Magein DA2, but that only one specialization, the rest was just fire and forget spells or fire and forget buffs. None of it had any strategic element to it whatsoever. Inquisition has much more ways to re-position your mage around the battlefield, create defensive barriers and create zones of power (abilities like Static Cage) that Origins and 2 simply lacked. 

 

Old CRPG's are largely as bad as Origins. Buff stacking and heal spamming does not make a game more strategic. They are not good combat systems. 

 

As for the availability of mods to fix Origin's combat, doesn't that speak for itself on how bad it was?  They also largely didn't fix the fact that no abilities in the Warrior or Rogue trees really had any depth to them, and they were just fancy auto attacks with maybe a cc ability or aoe attached to them. And that's not inducing tactical variety. 

At the very least you have to acknowledge that Origins had better enemy design?

 

None of those elements make up for the lack of breadth in roleplaying through abilities and stats that DAI has btw.

[Wolven_Soul]

And because we are not playing that game, pointing out that that game would be better than the one we are playing is an entirely valid response to it.

 

Especially since the topic is titled "Mages are so boring, as is combat in general", and the game we are playing artificially limiting player choices during play is a not inconsiderable part of why the person who created this topic did so, if the fact that they wrote "I think mainly it's the lack of spells - endless repetition of the same 3 or 4 attacks bores the snot out of me" is anything to judge by. So how about you drop the condescension?

 

Good luck with that.  Condescension seems to be that particular poster's shield against valid criticism.  

[actionhero112]

At the very least you have to acknowledge that Origins had better enemy design?

 

None of those elements make up for the lack of breadth in roleplaying through abilities and stats that DAI has btw.

Yeah I miss Broodmothers, the Harvester, Sylvans, Werewolves and Desire demons. I think facing the same footsoldier in a different suit of armor 50 times is also a bit boring, but Origins and II had a lot of that too. Plus with the new trials, they actually gave enemies abilities which is always cool. 

 

I'm definitely coming down on the side that Inquisition's combat system needs work. For example mages need more control (I like conjuration of terrain and mobility spells).  But I do think it's come a long way in terms of what Origin's and II's combat used to be.

 

I actually don't agree though with roleplaying through combat. I think that with the added masterworks, ability toggles and crafted armor, there is a lot you can do to act out your own experiences through combat. Though this is very subjective, as roleplaying is in itself a personalized experience.