82 réponses à ce sujet

[adorkable-panda]

I loved how you could actually tell a mage with revive to revive a dead player in 2, something you couldn't do in Origins. 

 

I honestly don't understand how they could take several steps back in terms of tactics from 2 to Inquisition when DAI had so much more use for such an extensive tactics ai system than 2 did with what the tactical cam and what not. But that's none of my business. It still works I guess to some degree. I'd prefer to play without constantly micromanaging but some actually like to micromanage like a traditional rpg. 

[BansheeOwnage]

DA:O and Awakening had abilities like shooting several arrows into the air, and a second later in RAINED arrows for like 15 seconds. It also had Massacre, which was basically a shout causing enemies to explode with blood.

I wonder why people never mention Awakening when they talk about "over the top abilities". 

Origins had Scattershot, used by every random archer in the game, that caused hit enemy to shoot arrows into all enemies surrounding him, and stunning everybody.

My main point wasn't the realism of the abilities, but rather the ridiculous cartoon effects that go along with them. I'm alright with the abilities themselves leaning a bit past plausibility (but I have my limits, like Fallback Plan), but they wouldn't irk me so much if they at least looked more believable. Not everything has to glow.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Honestly DA:2's combat was way superior to DA:I. It's one of the things DA:2 got just right. Not sure why Bioware wanted to reinvent the wheel.

 

Bioware has an unfortunate tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to audience criticism, or indeed, miss the substance of those criticisms entirely.

 

With regards to the tactics system, I'd agree that DA2 did it best. It wasn't bad in Origins, but the hard limits on the number of tactics slots were a misstep. Overall, while I didn't find myself overly hampered by it, the functionally unlimited slots in DA2 were just better, and it just felt much more robust.

[BansheeOwnage]

I loved how you could actually tell a mage with revive to revive a dead player in 2, something you couldn't do in Origins. 

 

I honestly don't understand how they could take several steps back in terms of tactics from 2 to Inquisition when DAI had so much more use for such an extensive tactics ai system than 2 did with what the tactical cam and what not. But that's none of my business. It still works I guess to some degree. I'd prefer to play without constantly micromanaging but some actually like to micromanage like a traditional rpg. 

Tactics were great because the people who wanted to ignore them or disable them always could, and the people who liked them could use them. Now we have no choice, and the people who ignored them are happy, but everyone else is out of luck.

[BansheeOwnage]

Bioware has an unfortunate tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to audience criticism, or indeed, miss the substance of those criticisms entirely.

I'm glad other people notice that. It's really quite frustrating for players, and sort of sad for them.

[Morroian]

How can u say that magic MAGIC is over the top? It's freaking magic. It's suppose to be raw and powerful. I wish that firestorm still looked like it did in the alpha ugh

 

Not talking about effects but animations

[Hiemoth]

Bioware has an unfortunate tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to audience criticism, or indeed, miss the substance of those criticisms entirely.

 

With regards to the tactics system, I'd agree that DA2 did it best. It wasn't bad in Origins, but the hard limits on the number of tactics slots were a misstep. Overall, while I didn't find myself overly hampered by it, the functionally unlimited slots in DA2 were just better, and it just felt much more robust.

 

But with DA2 reaction, it is important to point out that there wasn't any subtlety in the most vocal criticism and overall theme was always the same: DA2 is a horrible, horrible thing that must be purged from the land. There are no positive qualities in it. Everything is horrible. Any attempt of having a honest discussion thread on it was almost instantly drowned in posts where the author just wanted everyone to know that there was nothing good in DA2. As disappointed as I am with DA devs referring to DA2 as a misstep or putting it down in public discussion, and I do really dislike that, I do understand where that comes from. In the PAX discussion, Laidlaw referred to the team having PTSD after DA2 came out, and while it was a joke, again you could see where that came from.

 

In a lot of ways, I feel we are seeing now in DAI the almost co-ordinated effort of stopping any kind of constructive discussion on DA2 as there are points in the game where I felt that the guiding development principle was that make it the opposite of DA2.

[Sifr]

Surely the real question should be, "Would anyone have preferred DAI to have an AI system?"

 

Because much like the Maker, there's precious little we can see to confirm or deny it's existence, should it actually be real.

 

 

[RoseLawliet]

I know I've told people to hold in DA2 and they listened. Bug?

 

Something I noticed in DAI is that the companions will stop attacking if the Inquisitor isn't attacking. No, guys. You fight, I loot. Or you fight, I disrupt the rift. Really. The only good thing about this is that occasionally I can sneak through enemy spawn points.

[sleasye74]

Respec mod? If someone goes towards her and I rather her not waste her songs?
 
Does not change the fact that giving her daggers screws over her Ai that is set.

I had leli with bow and daggers and never had a problem with her not following commands same with the other companions, I had most companions in DAO with bows/crossbows/staffs and SnS, 2h, DW daggers/swords/maces/axes.
I never had a problem if the tactics were set right

[correctamundo]

Why do u mean only default dies this lol there no setting to change how they act in combat other than to choose what ability they use most. DA2 allowed you to chose his they act in many different situations.

My characters have always ran up to and got close to enemies when there's no reason to.

 

My characters never do.

 

Have you looked at behaviours?

[Darkly Tranquil]

God, yes. The Tactics and TacCam were my biggest disappointments in DAI. In it's current form, DAI is borderline unplayable for me (I barely managed to drag myself through one playthrough). Fixing just those issues would go a long way to making the game tolerable. Restoring full DAO/DA2 UI/control functionality would almost completely turn my opinion of the game around.

[adorkable-panda]

I just loved having my allies set to doing a particular ability depending on the situation other than just ticking 'preferred, using, not using'. Like Let's say for Solas, 'If enemy is frozen - use Stonefist'. And make that a priority tactic. Stuff like this plus the tac cam could've made DAI the best in terms of gameplay. 

 

The action rpg is decent for me but I get mad when my companions don't do what I want them to do, and the tac cam leaves a lot to be desired for, despite being beautifully constructed, there is just so much that is a mess. For one, why can't we change elevations and altitutdes and have to go around. And why do I need to micromanage while in tac cam to get my final result instead of just letting the AI handle it. 

 

I know they were advertising the 'choose your way on how you want to play' motif but streamlining tactics was definitely a huge mistake. 

[Linkenski]

Are you kidding me OP? Of course I'd like DA2's system instead of this crap. I used it a lot in DA2 to trigger combos without manually having to direct the companions. That aspect is completely gone here.

Awesome button this, awesome button that is what we got instead.

[Mr.House]

Are you kidding me OP? Of course I'd like DA2's system instead of this crap. I used it a lot in DA2 to trigger combos without manually having to direct the companions. That aspect is completely gone here.

Awesome button this, awesome button that is what we got instead.

Awesome button was in DA2 in fact.

[JadeDragon]

DAO tactics were not the best but still better then what we have now. Of course DA2 tactics were better because like with most things if your gonna make a sequel you fine tune your features that worked last game so DA2 has the best tactics in the series not perfect but the best. Sadly DAI they did not fine tune or perfect but went backwards and overall we have the worse tactic system in the series. For the 3rd game it should have been much much better then what we have

[Adanu]

I completely loathe the simplistic and severely limited 'tactics' we get in this one for sure. I've been hoping for a mod to bring back DA2s system.

[ESTAQ99]

My range guys never go into melee range in DAI.

 

DAO though was lulzy sometimes. Give Leli some daggers, have her use her bow and be in range, she'll take her daggers out and go into melee. I miss dat amusing AI.

 

 

Then your copy of DAI must have been bugged because even in those Twitch videos with the devs playing DAI, it was embarrassing to see Dorian, Varric, Vivienne and most range companions running straight to the enemies as if they were wielding a sword.

 

In my opinion, DA2 has the best AI system out of the three DA games. An improvement from DA2 would have been adding a well executed tactical cam, not the atrocity that they presented at launching. And for the maker's sake, please get rid tone down with all those excessive sparkles, snowflakes, smoke, fog, etc.

[Shaftell]

scratching the tactics in DAI is the only thing that separated Dragon Age from any other RPG. It really bothered me. To be able to customize your squad tactics was a +1 DA had that other games didn't. Now Bioware play catch up instead of inventing. Stop streamlining everything, or at least keep the option for us micro manage our team with the tactics feature. I really hope they bring it back in the next game.

[Absafraginlootly]

Whilst being able to specifically set when a character uses an abilitly was useful, what I really miss are

• Stay/Hold - in origins if I told my companion to stand at a specific location, they could be relied upon to do so, not so in DA2 and DAI
• Combat Behavior - Being able to set ranged characters to move away when attacked in melee, or to stay and fight but not follow when an enemy moves away. etc
• Weapon Switching/ranged attack for all classes - in DAO I could have all characters have some kind of ranged attack, a warrior could always take out a bow and shoot, even if I'd put no points in that tree. There were certain situations where I didn't want characters running up into melee, in the later games when I run into these situations my melee characters have to sit there and do nothing(and its a struggle to make them do so because the hold function doesn't work properly).
• Autoattack - in Inquisition it only functions when you scroll out into tactical cam, DAI's tac cam leaves much to be desired, you often can't see anything for the obstacles and you can't use the search function. Being able to click on something and have you pc run over and attack/loot/use it is something I very much miss.

[TraiHarder]

I would argue that it is a somewhat objective fact that the DA2 tactical and party AI system was the most intricate of the DA games so far, in addition to being somewhat puzzled by the number of comments against that don't really have anything to do with the actual AI or tactical system. However, in a way it is not a truly fair comparison as the combat system in DA2 and DAI are almost completely different as well as thorougly redesigned encounter system. Thus, several of the switches they were able to incorporate in DA2 system basically became useless here.

For me, the larger question is actually how much can the companion AI and tactics system in DAI be improved. Especially with rogue and warrior, almost their whole approach are built on positioning and interactive control, which can be seen in how vastly the difference in playing them with the K/M vs pad. The problem is that that is something really difficult to translate in to tactics and effective party AI, which for example makes two-handed rogue almost more an hinderance than benefit. And with the current system, I just don't see how they can improve on the tactics system unless they first scale back on their current approach on interactive combat.

What do you mean by scale back their interactive combat?

Examples

[TraiHarder]

My characters never do.

Have you looked at behaviours?

Lol what are u talking about your acting as if we have a setting to keep them from running up to the enemy . Many people have always had this problem

[KaiserShep]

My range guys never go into melee range in DAI.

 

DAO though was lulzy sometimes. Give Leli some daggers, have her use her bow and be in range, she'll take her daggers out and go into melee. I miss dat amusing AI.

 

The only companion that ever kept an adequate distance from enemies for me was Sera, but that's because of leaping shot, which for my own reasons I never select for Varric ('cause he just doesn't look the leaping sort). My mages, however, would move into range to start attacking an enemy, but would never move away if that enemy got close. 

[Akkos]

The only companion that ever kept an adequate distance from enemies for me was Sera, but that's because of leaping shot, which for my own reasons I never select for Varric ('cause he just doesn't look the leaping sort). My mages, however, would move into range to start attacking an enemy, but would never move away if that enemy got close. 

 

Once again, go into tactics and set them to "follow themselves".  They look stupid because they are following the "Controlled Character".... And they will look dumber if the Controller character is standing there "auto-attacking" even when enemy get close enough.

[Darkly Tranquil]

For me, the larger question is actually how much can the companion AI and tactics system in DAI be improved. Especially with rogue and warrior, almost their whole approach are built on positioning and interactive control, which can be seen in how vastly the difference in playing them with the K/M vs pad. The problem is that that is something really difficult to translate in to tactics and effective party AI, which for example makes two-handed rogue almost more an hinderance than benefit. And with the current system, I just don't see how they can improve on the tactics system unless they first scale back on their current approach on interactive combat.

Completely agree with this. The current combat system with its focus on reactions, active defence, and positioning seems to have been designed for a player to control each character (*cough* multiplayer *cough*), not an AI, as there are too many variables for a fairly simple game AI to deal with. This kind of combat is fine in games like Witcher 3 or Dark Souls, where the player only ever controls one character in real time, but it really falls over when one player tries to control a party all at once and the AI isn't up to it. There is a reason that older party based systems used turn based and RTwP; it's because the ability to queue up actions in advance for multiple characters is necessary for party based combat, and while DAI has a RTwP mode, it's extremely poorly implemented, is unreliable, and still suffers from the same flaws that the AI does, specifically, the inability to reliably position and react.

In the end, I just don't think this action oriented style of combat suits a party based single player game. It works fine for multiplayer games, and for games where you control a single character, but it's completely unsuited to a game like DA. Short of either taking control of the companions off the player completely and just fudging their mechanics (sort of like pets in WoW), thus allowing the player to focus on their own character, or going back to the older traditional CRPG style of party based combat, I can't see where Bioware can go from here with this current approach to combat.