Aller au contenu

Photo

Don't Repeat ME3's ending


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
353 réponses à ce sujet

#351
LinksOcarina

LinksOcarina
  • Members
  • 6 512 messages

Is this a late-playthrough phenomenon, or did you think that the game told you all you needed to know for this the first time through?

 

From my third/fourth playthrough on yes.

 

First playthrough was the purest like that because it was all new. I was a Breton Conjurer/scholar who liked Dwarven Ruins, so I actively seeked them out and did the whole Winterhold Quest, for example.

 

Second playthrough was a Argonian Archer who was more or less shunned all the time. So he turned to crime, went to Riften to make a name for himself.

 

After I did a few go's and went through the main storyline, it was pretty much the challenge of keeping me engaged. Dragon Age I have that same mentality; thankfully there are more tangible differences through story decisions to help with that process.

 

 

The point of formalizing the logic is that we can go back through it and verify that we didn't make any mistakes. It turns reasoning into math, and no one claims that people can't separate themselves from math problems (though I have met people like that).

Yes, my character designs are often based on metagame knowledge, but the in-game decisions must follow logically (by which I mean logical deduction) from the character's personality.

My first Warden refused to accept his own mortality. He didn't see why his death shouldbe inevitable, so his primary objective throughout the game was to achieve immortality.

Meeting Avernus - a mage who'd lived for centuries - was particularly heartening.

What that meant was, from the moment of the Joining, his primary objective was that of cleansing the taint. Defeating the Archdemon was a necessary, but incidental step.

You're still talking about a specific adventure or campaign, not the game itself. The game itself is the set of rules in the book. There's nothing there about what the objective is. The rules tell us only how the stats work.

 

Two things.

 

Formalizing in-character logic to math doesn't really make sense for characterization. It turns them into puppets with a master more than an actual in-game character for one, and also makes them arguably infallible in their decisions. Making mistakes should be part of that process if you ask me, and I don't mean character mistakes through role-play or our own metagame knowledge, or simply dying and getting a game over, I mean actual moments of weakness.

 

Not to mention even in-game decisions will be colored by metagame knowledge. Logical deduction can only work if you don't know what is coming next. Yes, your character may not know, but the person pulling the strings does.

 

Second, the game itself is the adventure or campaign that is put forth to you. Most don't play tabletop games unless the books tell them about whats in the world for one; I know friends of mine who refuse to do anything outside of the Shadowrun universe, or Forgotten Realms, for example, because the setting is presented to them in these rulebooks.

 

I guess we can argue, do we really need a set of books to play a game of make believe? Outside of rules, stats, and even setting, we also get adventures and lists and appendix rules. Yet all of that facilitates goals; character creation is an objective in these books, setting up encounters and worlds is an objective, using the math to create adversaries or items is an objective.

 

In that way, it's still a game id say as well, as we go through the physical process of the creation. The GM in me sees it as such at least.


  • AlanC9 aime ceci

#352
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 573 messages

The whole character reversal they attempted with Shepard was the awful part. Here's a soldier who fought against the Reapers for years, told Saren he was an idiot for wanting to 'meld' with the Reapers, fought against Cereberus and seen the awful things they did to control everyone first hand. Yet suddenly, you are offered those very same ideals as 'solutions'. Just didn't make sense for Shepard to choose those based on everything he/she had been through.

This is what I liked best about the endings, myself. Shepard being the PC doesn't mean he's right about stuff.

I'm also not sure that limitations on the PCs dialogue are a great way to make an argument. Mostly what that proves is that ME doesn't have enough dialogue options.

#353
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 099 messages

From my third/fourth playthrough on yes.

First playthrough was the purest like that because it was all new. I was a Breton Conjurer/scholar who liked Dwarven Ruins, so I actively seeked them out and did the whole Winterhold Quest, for example.

Second playthrough was a Argonian Archer who was more or less shunned all the time. So he turned to crime, went to Riften to make a name for himself.

After I did a few go's and went through the main storyline, it was pretty much the challenge of keeping me engaged. Dragon Age I have that same mentality; thankfully there are more tangible differences through story decisions to help with that process.



Two things.

Formalizing in-character logic to math doesn't really make sense for characterization. It turns them into puppets with a master more than an actual in-game character for one, and also makes them arguably infallible in their decisions. Making mistakes should be part of that process if you ask me, and I don't mean character mistakes through role-play or our own metagame knowledge, or simply dying and getting a game over, I mean actual moments of weakness.

Not to mention even in-game decisions will be colored by metagame knowledge. Logical deduction can only work if you don't know what is coming next. Yes, your character may not know, but the person pulling the strings does.

Second, the game itself is the adventure or campaign that is put forth to you. Most don't play tabletop games unless the books tell them about whats in the world for one; I know friends of mine who refuse to do anything outside of the Shadowrun universe, or Forgotten Realms, for example, because the setting is presented to them in these rulebooks.

I guess we can argue, do we really need a set of books to play a game of make believe? Outside of rules, stats, and even setting, we also get adventures and lists and appendix rules. Yet all of that facilitates goals; character creation is an objective in these books, setting up encounters and worlds is an objective, using the math to create adversaries or items is an objective.

In that way, it's still a game id say as well, as we go through the physical process of the creation. The GM in me sees it as such at least.

Your Skyrim story reminds me of what might be a useful example. I wanted to play a character who went to Riften early in the game, so I constructed a character who would do that. She was from Riften originally, but had run away as a teenager. After spending several years as an urchin/beggar/burglar in Cyrodiil, she was returning home to seek forgiveness from her parents. Now, I knew that her parents didn't exist within the game, but she didn't. So she ignored everything else she encountered at the start, heading straight for Whiterun so she could hire a ride to Riften. Once there, she looked everywhere for her family, finding nothing...

And that was it. I hadn't constructed a complete enough character, so she had no motives beyond that. That playthrough lasted about 5 hours. It was a dismal failure on my part.

Now, you're right about the logic. It's especially difficult to separate my foreknowledge from the character if I haven't yet experienced the content myself. I need that first playthrough to discover what an honest reaction to the content is, and I can then use that as a baseline for suvsequent characters.

To make this easier, I always play the same character on my first playthrough of every game. I've played him for a really long time (he was originally a 2nd edition AD&D character I made in 1989 - I always played in house settings or Greyhawk), so I slip easily into character, and I don’t need to expend much mental effort maintaining the persona. As a result, I get to experience an honest reaction to the content the first time, and I build later characters based on that.

This is why I'm so militantly opposed to spoilers, especially pre-release. I hate that they tell us so much about the in-game events, and particularly about the companions. I'd rather not even know that there were companions the first time I played.

Regarding the in-game setting, I would count that as part of the rules. The rules are describing what is true of the world in which you're going to play. Geography is as much a part of that as physical or magical or moral laws are.

#354
Rappeldrache

Rappeldrache
  • Members
  • 415 messages

The game will end on a cliff hanger.

 

Yes it will, your true. :)

 

I was thinking about the end of part 3. And I was talking a bit "general". This was what I wish for the end of DAI, too. :(