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Don't Repeat ME3's ending


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#151
AlanC9

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But yeah you do it, after a little bit of debating and asking some questions. For all we know the Catalyst and Harbinger could have had a bet running if starkid could talk you into killing yourself and you completely missed the real "Kill Reapers" button, because you listened to that kid.


Sure, it's conceivable. But if that's the case it doesn't matter what Shepard does; he hasn't even lost, because there never was a contest in the first place. That possibility isn't worth considering for even an instant.

#152
Iakus

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I'd describe it a little differently. I think they got trapped by the stuff established earlier in the series. In retrospect, ME1 revealed too much about the Reapers; if they weren't prepared to think about why the Reapers operated in cycles, they shouldn't have established the cycles as a fact. It's a hazard of making it up as you go along, yes, but that's been made to work before (DS9 turned out a bit better than B5, IMO), and going from a master plan introduces its own challenges; you could find yourself yoked to a bad plan.
 

Except they wouldn't have gotten "trapped" if they had a map to where they were going with all this.  The problem isn't that they showed the Reapers operating in cycles, it's that they didn't know why they had the Reapers operating in cycles.  Perhaps if things had been thought out better, they'd have the Reapers operating differently.  Or maybe not.  but in either case, there'd be a reason behind it.  One that didn't get shoehorned in at the last moment.

 

 

So what would your Shepards do in that situation? Refuse? Didn't your position used to be that your Shepard would pick Destroy, and then eat his gun if he survived?

Yes, that's be my position.  He'd probably walk towards the fireball like an idiot too, hoping it would kill him.  Because this "victory" comes at too high a price to bear (not just Shepard's probable death).  

 

But that's not the story I wanted to tell.  That's not the story I spent five years shaping.  I wanted a Cincinnatus story, not Nelson.



#153
AlanC9

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So the fundamental thing here is that we're doing totally different things when we're playing RPGs. I'm one of those RP fundamentalists, like Sylvius. I play the character, and whatever happens, happens. The last thing I want to do is think about the story as a story; if I'm doing that, I'm out-of-character. (After the fourth playthrough or so I switch over to your approach so I can see different content, but those playthroughs are far less important to me.)

Since I strongly prefer to not know stuff that my character doesn't know, this means that we want different things from choices in RPGs.

#154
Iakus

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So the fundamental thing here is that we're doing totally different things when we're playing RPGs. I'm one of those RP fundamentalists, like Sylvius. I play the character, and whatever happens, happens. The last thing I want to do is think about the story as a story; if I'm doing that, I'm out-of-character. (After the fourth playthrough or so I switch over to your approach so I can see different content, but those playthroughs are far less important to me.)

Since I strongly prefer to not know stuff that my character doesn't know, this means that we want different things from choices in RPGs.

Apparently we do.  Because I can't play games like Assassin's Creed anymore, where I'm playing someone else's character and participating in someone else's story.  I have books for that.  They're cheaper too.

 

If whatever happens, happens, then why is my input required?  Why am I given choices, and why is it a big deal that I'm given them?  


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#155
Il Divo

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I'd describe it a little differently. I think they got trapped by the stuff established earlier in the series. In retrospect, ME1 revealed too much about the Reapers; if they weren't prepared to think about why the Reapers operated in cycles, they shouldn't have established the cycles as a fact. It's a hazard of making it up as you go along, yes, but that's been made to work before (DS9 turned out a bit better than B5, IMO), and going from a master plan introduces its own challenges; you could find yourself yoked to a bad plan.

 

Still, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that revealing the cycles was "too much information". It's not like they laid out a 5-step plan of how it all works. Even ME1 itself, when we ask why Sovereign is doing this, essentially tells us that it would be a waste of time to explain (which Vigil actually seems to agree with).

 

All this to say, the flaws the Reaper reveal as written in ME3's ending could be traced back to lack of planning in ME1 and 2, but if the writers had simply omitted the reveal altogether, it wouldn't have really diminished its previous games in any concrete way. Not in the way that the build up of the Genophage/Geth Quarian Conflicts were handled.



#156
dreamgazer

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Well, barring Joker and EDI, and high end Geth/Quarian resolution. Of course, even there this demonstrates a huge problem with their implementation. Our experiences with AI are limited to EDI and the Geth, but the game goes through great pains to emphasize how reliable they can both be. EDI, if I remember right, becomes a reliable companion, no matter what the player does, and the Geth, even if sided against, come off as sympathetic.


The geth? Reliable?
 

I'd argue it's a Mass Effect 3 issue. We managed to go almost 3 entire games without a Reaper motivation, after all. The game would've sufficed just fine without adding one in the last ten minutes of the game.

 


Can't really say I agree, especially with the morbid elaborateness of the Reapers' tactics (relay network, human larvae). It all begs the question "Why?", and it would've been a monumental cop-out to avoid this for the sake of some Lovecraftian mystique. The series persistently inched towards receiving an answer.
 

The base concept is the same as the Mass Effect endings, in their current form though. The technological singularity is no different than WMD's or the spread of dark energy, in its attempt at turning the Reapers into good guys, by stopping us from destroying ourselves. The prime difference here is that the actual reasoning presented by the Reapers is so far removed from the player's experience, if not directly contradicting the entire point of EDI and the Geth.


Tech singularity actually is quite different than WMDs and dark energy: one relies on a cautious, supported hypothesis about a philosophical subject and benign scientific advancement, while the others work off empirical data about things that simply go boom and burn.
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#157
sH0tgUn jUliA

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It is not something you can comprehend. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. You wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain.

 

Shepard: Just give me the bottom line. When I use the crucible what will happen.

 

Catalyst: You will die. The mass relays will explode. And the Normandy will crash.

 

Shepard: So there's not really any difference.

 

Catalyst: There is a difference in the colors of the explosions.

 

Shepard: ....


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#158
Il Divo

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The geth? Reliable?

 

 

About as much as any organic companions have proven themselves to be. It's not like ME3 spent all its time forcing the idea down our throats that the Geth couldn't be trusted simply because they're synthetics.

 

Tech singularity actually is quite different than WMDs and dark energy: one relies on a cautious, supported hypothesis about a philosophical subject and benign scientific advancement, while the others work off empirical data about things that simply go boom and burn.          ​

 

 

Probably best if we avoid loaded terminology, especially since MAD theory has itself been a subject of philosophical inquiry and represents a pretty believable threat in terms of how our own nuclear weapons can scale out of control, given the slightest provocation. Watchmen did this pretty well, for example.

 

Not to mention, of all the things the ME3 ending was, a cautious supported examination of a philosophical subject it was not. More like having an ideology crammed down the player's throat, without any real discussion of its pros and cons, beyond telling us how we're all dead because robots, hence why it fits pretty well with the WMD/Dark Energy concept in terms of trying to turn the Reapers into heroes.



#159
Redbelle

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Just.... Let's not see a Jimquisition about Bioware and ME:A.

 

Though that will be down to the devs



#160
WillieStyle

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Riiiight... so as currently implemented pretty much everything is wrong with the ending, and if there was an ending option after the existing conversation with the Catalyst where you could somehow convince it, a billion year old entity with heretofore untold and unrevealed advances in technology, that it was wrong or broken, then destroy the Reapers without sacrificing anyone, including Shepard, and then have an epilogue where everyone is working together, those problems would still be worth complaining about 3 years later.

 

Do you not know how geeks work?  People argue about the ME3 endings till this day because people are really really into Mass Effect.  To this day, my friends and I still complain about the Star Wars prequels, the Matrix sequels, World War Z the book, etc. etc.  That's just what geeks do.

 

I, for one, have made it abundantly clear that Shepherd dying is one of the few things I liked about the endings.  And yet, I'll probably be ranting about the ending to ME3 when I'm in diapers in a nursing home because I love the series.


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#161
AlanC9

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Still, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that revealing the cycles was "too much information". It's not like they laid out a 5-step plan of how it all works. Even ME1 itself, when we ask why Sovereign is doing this, essentially tells us that it would be a waste of time to explain (which Vigil actually seems to agree with).

Thing is, we've had years to come up with an alternative theory that matches the ME1 and ME2 evidence. Nobody's ever come up with anything really convincing. I liked the one where the Reapers are war machines who just plain like hunting organics --see the "taste like bacon" example upthread; we're the deer -- but it's not really reconcilable with Harbinger's ME2 dialogue.

All this to say, the flaws the Reaper reveal as written in ME3's ending could be traced back to lack of planning in ME1 and 2, but if the writers had simply omitted the reveal altogether, it wouldn't have really diminished its previous games in any concrete way. Not in the way that the build up of the Genophage/Geth Quarian Conflicts were handled.

It's difficult to judge a counterfactual like that. I'm highly confident that I would have thought of such an ending as an embarrassing cop-out. How the fanbase as a whole would have judged it... beats me.

#162
AlanC9

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Apparently we do. Because I can't play games like Assassin's Creed anymore, where I'm playing someone else's character and participating in someone else's story. I have books for that. They're cheaper too.

If whatever happens, happens, then why is my input required? Why am I given choices, and why is it a big deal that I'm given them?

This has nothing much to do with what I actually posted. Care to try again?

"Whatever happens, happens" means that your character's actions should have whatever consequences would naturally flow from those actions, not that different actions should have the same result. My fault for being unclear, I guess, but you really didn't understand that?

How come you keep playing the "someone else's character" card, anyway? No one's been arguing in favor of reducing RP options, or of a defined character.

#163
Quarian Master Race

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About as much as any organic companions have proven themselves to be. It's not like ME3 spent all its time forcing the idea down our throats that the Geth couldn't be trusted simply because they're synthetics.

Funny, I don't remember any of my organic companions/ their factions willingly choosing to ally with the enemy in trying to exterminate all advanced life in the galaxy on more than one occasion. Not even Cerberus, my supposed adversary, did that on purpose.

EDI is perhaps not the best companion to use either for "reliable" when if judged by organic standards it would be considered a mass murderer due to the Luna "incident". Other AI's are similarly untrustworthy and seemingly prone to unprovoked lethal violence against organics (ME1 Casino AI, ME2 Jarrahe station VI). 



#164
Il Divo

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Funny, I don't remember any of my organic companions/ their factions willingly choosing to ally with the enemy in trying to exterminate all advanced life in the galaxy on more than one occasion. Not even Cerberus, my supposed adversary, did that on purpose.

 

Matriarch Benezia? Saren? They seemed to have no problem betraying their organic allies, the Asari and Council respectively.

 

Willing to choose survival over potential extermination? Because I remember that being an important factor for the Geth at the start of the Quarian invasion and would likely play a pretty important role in any organic's thought process, as we saw in ME1.

 

 

~EDI is perhaps not the best companion to use either for "reliable" when if judged by organic standards it would be considered a mass murderer due to the Luna "incident". Other AI's are similarly untrustworthy and seemingly prone to unprovoked lethal violence against organics (ME1 Casino AI, ME2 Jarrahe station VI).​

 

 

Note that Mordin himself is responsible for genocide, by his own admission. Samara operates in purely absolutist terms which cause her to go around murdering potentially innocent people. Thane himself is an assassin.  

 

My point is you're constructing a pretty big strawman here. Primary issue here being that if we're going to create some sort of artificial distinction between organics and synthetics, we should probably start with attributes which are unique to each.

 

Far as I'm aware, I'm not expecting EDI to go on a murder spree simply because Shepard is organic, at this point. She is as reliable as Ashley or Kaidan.



#165
Quarian Master Race

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Matriarch Benezia? Saren? They seemed to have no problem betraying their organic allies.

Indoctrinated against their will more or less, and moreover they are individuals instead of members of a networked collective intelligence, so their decisions do not necessarily represent a propensity for their species as a whole to willingly engage in psychopathic, violently destructive tendencies.

 

Willing to choose survival over potential extermination? Because I recall that being an important factor for the Geth at the start of the Quarian invasion and would likely play a pretty important role in any organic's thought process, as we saw in ME1.

 

They would've be exterminated by the Reapers after everyone else was reaped regardless, so "survival" is a......retarded motivation to say the least. The geth stood to gain nothing and lose everything when they could have easily retreated in the face of defeat (you know, like the quarians managed to do 300 years earlier). Stop defending and falsely categorizing it as something organics would do, because not a single other species willingly turncoats to the side of the Reapers to help them in their objectives for any reason. You have no evidence of that being "likely."
 

 

Note that Mordin himself is responsible for genocide, by his own admission. Samara operates in purely absolutist terms which cause her to go around murdering potentially innocent people. Thane himself is an assassin.  

 

If anything Mordin prevents a genocide, either of the krogan by perhaps less benign species who would simply go all the way rather than messing about with fertility rates, or of whatever the krogan would inevitably do to their victims if allowed to expand unchecked.

No argument on Samara, she's absolutely cuckoo just like her daughter, but again an individual who doesn't reflect on the species as a whole, and her goals aren't galactically destructive anyway. 

We only ever see or hear of Thane killing horrible criminals. There's not enough information there to compare him with any of the AI's who seem to indiscriminately slaughter every organic they come in contact with when it meets their objectives to do so.
 

 

My point is you're constructing a pretty big strawman here. Primary issue here being that if we're going to create some sort of artificial distinction between organics and synthetics, we should probably start with attributes which are unique to each.

 

Far as I'm aware, I'm not expecting EDI to go on a murder spree simply because Shepard is organic, at this point. She is as reliable as Ashley or Kaidan.

What strawman? Synthetics who aren't controlled by and don't kill organics en masse are in the extreme minority in the ME universe. Conversely, organics who kill organics en masse are in the extreme minority. That is backed up by simple arithmetic and isn't up for debate. 

Your expectations are irrational then. It has happened before with one and not the others. The AI even frequently makes jokes about killing organics, which is totally funny considering it has. Moreover, you have a good idea how human thought processes operate, but no idea how AI process do, nor any means to anticipate them. EDI can kill every living thing on the ship before they even know what is happening simply by cutting life support on the flip of a quantum bit. Ashely or Kaidan can't unless everyone decides to catch the idiot ball at the same time, nor have they any motive to beyond sudden onset of psychopathy.

 


 



#166
78stonewobble

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1. How do you figure you'd need a trillion probes? And why are you counting the volume of space rather than the number of stars? 2. Anyway, this has to work or the whole premise of the series fails -- the Reapers managing all organic life in the galaxy is a fact whatever their motivations are. If you want to say that ME was always nonsense, I'll get out of your way.

3. You really haven't thought this through, have you? We don't raise pigs by just letting them run around; we deliberately cultivate them, and the corn to feed them, and so on. We do raise deer by just letting them run around, but that's precisely because we don't depend on them for anything that we actually need.

4. What counts as finishing the story? How'd you feel about, say, KOtoR?

 

1. There is also between 100-400 billion stars. As many, if not more planets. Asteroids and comets number in the trillions. I coun't empty space, because in every square kilometer of it, a sentient species might hide and develop the reaper trashing god AI. 

 

2. No. It makes the premise of reaper motivations in me3 fail. It does not make unexplained reaper motivations in me1 and 2 fail, where they for some, thusfar unexplained, reason, cull advanced sentient organic life every 50.000 years. 

 

3. Neither did you apparently... Hunter gatherers? Just think for a second... Of the massive investments of ressources and energy necessary to keep massive galaxy spanning civilisations in "husbandry", when they obviously still have to develop naturally and cannot be, for some reason, collectorfied (gets less tasty). It would be fighting revolt upon revolt all over the galaxy, not just every 50.000 years, but continiously. I suspect the reapings is quite the efficient way of going about it and apparently, as evidenced in game, the chance of organic sentients evolving, is high enough to have allowed the reapers to exist for 2 billion years.... 

 

4. Resolution to main and side plots... Anything else is trying to tell a story and just giving up at the end. In which case I might as well have made up a story myself... for free.. 



#167
MerchantGOL

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Why were so many people upset about Shepherd dying?  Shepherd's heroic sacrifice is the most narratively appropriate thing ever.  The one person who saw the threat coming from the beginning, gives their life to save the galaxy.  That's an awesome way to end Shepherd's story.

 

I don't even understand the selfish objections to this.  Whether or not Shepherd lives, you will never get to play that character again. So why be mad that he dies?

People wanted there happy crappy fan fic ending with babies and picnics.



#168
78stonewobble

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People wanted there happy crappy fan fic ending with babies and picnics.

 

No, we wanted an ending of the same quality as other parts of the game. Have some standards people!


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#169
Dantriges

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Where does the 2 billion years number come from? Thought it´s around one billion



#170
78stonewobble

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Where does the 2 billion years number come from? Thought it´s around one billion

 

You might be right. The 1 billion year old number comes from a batarian age estimate of a dead reaper. I think the 2 billion (2,2 billion I think it was), was an estimation considering the number of reapers and the making of 1 reaper every 50.000 year on the forums, if I remember correctly. :) 



#171
Obadiah

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1. There is also between 100-400 billion stars. As many, if not more planets. Asteroids and comets number in the trillions. I coun't empty space, because in every square kilometer of it, a sentient species might hide and develop the reaper trashing god AI. 
...

That's part of the difference between us and the AI. What we might see as an impossible limitation, the Reapers put on checklist and already solved a billion years ago. Capabilities that one would consider impossible, like firing the Crucible with three different effects, are not.

...
4. Resolution to main and side plots... Anything else is trying to tell a story and just giving up at the end. In which case I might as well have made up a story myself... for free..

Explaining Reaper motivations is a pretty big part of the resolution to the story.

#172
Redbelle

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People wanted there happy crappy fan fic ending with babies and picnics.

 

 

No, we wanted an ending of the same quality as other parts of the game. Have some standards people!

Tell me about it. The standard of ME3's ending went from Sci-Fi drama set in a military background to cod philosophy born of writing that indulged in streams of thought that meandered from one idea to another. Without ever stopping to consider if what was being said held up to scrutiny.

 

Concepts of combining narrative with gameplay left the room, whereas, in ME1 and 2, both remained in place with strong narrative.

 

If you want to see Shepards death done right? Fail ME2's suicide mission.


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#173
Il Divo

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Indoctrinated against their will more or less, and moreover they are individuals instead of members of a networked collective intelligence, so their decisions do not necessarily represent a propensity for their species as a whole to willingly engage in psychopathic, violently destructive tendencies.

 

 

Two points regarding this:

 

1. Neither character began as indoctrinated. Saren in particular joined Sovereign via free will. In other words: he was willing to put all of civilization at risk on the promise that he (and others) might be spared. Sure, you could argue that Saren's loyalty was enforced down the line, but had he never taken that first step, Sovereign wouldn't have had the chance to indoctrinate him. He knew exactly what he was doing at the start.

 

2. And note that this one organic in this instance had the potential to produce galactic genocide because of his decisions.

 

Putting aside of course that not all synthetics operate on the same parameters as the Geth (Ex: EDI).

 

 

They would've be exterminated by the Reapers after everyone else was reaped regardless, so "survival" is a......retarded motivation to say the least. The geth stood to gain nothing and lose everything when they could have easily retreated in the face of defeat (you know, like the quarians managed to do 300 years earlier). Stop defending and falsely categorizing it as something organics would do, because not a single other species willingly turncoats to the side of the Reapers to help them in their objectives for any reason. You have no evidence of that being "likely."

 

 

You're right. It's not likely, it's guaranteed. Case in point? Saren, who made this exact argument with regards to submission vs extinction.

 

If you want to point out how desperate the idea is that the Reapers would grant a repreive for support, you'd actually be on the money. But it's not exactly uncommon for characters to take desperate actions, under threat of death. You should probably factor that into your calculations, given that ME1's premise relies on this.

 

 

f anything Mordin prevents a genocide, either of the krogan by perhaps less benign species who would simply go all the way rather than messing about with fertility rates, or of whatever the krogan would inevitably do to their victims if allowed to expand unchecked.

No argument on Samara, she's absolutely cuckoo just like her daughter, but again an individual who doesn't reflect on the species as a whole, and her goals aren't galactically destructive anyway.  We only ever see or hear of Thane killing horrible criminals. There's not enough information there to compare him with any of the AI's who seem to indiscriminately slaughter every organic they come in contact with when it meets their objectives to do so.

 

 

Well, Mordin doesn't see it that way, especially since it was the Salarians' fault in the first place for uplifting the Krogan because of their own conflict with the Rachni (Mordin's Example: Giving nuclear weapons to cave men).

 

Regarding Thane, his own dialogues disprove this interpretation, specifically in regards to how he met his wife. This is essentially Walter White rationalizing at play.

 

What strawman? Synthetics who aren't controlled by and don't kill organics en masse are in the extreme minority in the ME universe. Conversely, organics who kill organics en masse are in the extreme minority. That is backed up by simple arithmetic and isn't up for debate.

 

 

Our "sample sizes" amount to EDI and the Geth. The former has been exclusively helpful and the latter simply acted in defense of their lives, once genocide was initiated. And note of course, that the Geth themselves managed to decide to pursue an alliance with Shepard, without any sort violent intent towards organics in ME2.

 

Not to mention, your own Quarians were responsible for attempted genocide once they realized the Geth were gaining sentience.

 

Your expectations are irrational then. It has happened before with one and not the others. The AI even frequently makes jokes about killing organics, which is totally funny considering it has. Moreover, you have a good idea how human thought processes operate, but no idea how AI process do, nor any means to anticipate them. EDI can kill every living thing on the ship before they even know what is happening simply by cutting life support on the flip of a quantum bit. Ashely or Kaidan can't unless everyone decides to catch the idiot ball at the same time, nor have they any motive to beyond sudden onset of psychopathy.

 

 

Do I? Because I seem to encounter a plethora of humans who don't mind causing large scale destruction on their own. Saying "Herp derp you don't know what EDI will do!" doesn't really amount to much, particularly since ME3 does emphasize her value as a companion, to say nothing of all the terrifying ideas put into effect by organics (Mordin's Genophage, Shepard's Relay in the Arrival dlc).



#174
Abedsbrother

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Meh, the endings of Mass Effect 3 work all right. Reading all the Mass Effect novels and comics helps. If there is one thing I'd like to see in Andromeda, it would be to NOT include so much lore in material outside of the game.



#175
Killdren88

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Couldn't agree more.

I'm all for plot twists/surprise reveals, but the greater goal has to be kept in sight. ME1 drops us the organic-synthetic conflict and since then, Bioware did pretty much everything they could do to emphasize the "We're not so different after all" point. EDI always becomes more in touch with her humanity, the Geth are revealed to be sympathetic, even in scenarios where the Quarians are chosen via "Does this unit have a soul?".

That's sorta how I've always pictured the conflict. We are introduced to the idea of coexistence with Synthetics is impossible, and the Reapers and Heretics were to drive the point home. Then we meet EDI and Legion who we see throughout the story that they can learn what it is to be human and learn to appreciate the same things humans do. It is here we learn that maybe coexistence is possible. Its just Reapers who refuse to see beyond their own ideology to see this. As a result the Reapers need to be destroyed as they can't or rather refuse to get with the times.

To me this is why the ending leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Its telling me either
A. Coexistence is only possible when you have a loaded gun pointed at your head(control)
B. Coexistence is only possible when you remove what makes us unique from each other and diversity is dead. (Synthesis )
C. And sadly my favored ending. No coexistence is impossible. You can't just remove those who appose coexistence. Its us or them. ( Destroy)