58 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

In both Origins and Inquisition you have companions who are suspicious of Morrigan and just seem to expect her to betray you in the first chance she gets. And yet... that just never happens.

The closest thing to that was her quitting after you refuse the Dark Ritual, but I don't see what the big deal is.

The only people who were bound by an oath were Alistair and the Warden. Everyone else was free to go anytime they wanted. I wouldn't have had a problem with Leliana leaving if she so desired.

And in Inquisition, well, she is as faithful as any good ally.

In Flemeth's case, it has more to do with the fandom. Some believe she is a potential villain, but I just don't see it.

She might not be a saint, as her ex-lovers would tell you if they were alive. However, a person who makes a habit of aiding heroes of legend is far from ill intentioned.

[Dai Grepher]

They're female.

 

*Takes cover*

 

[Qun00]

I'm sure there are some people who would love to think so, but they probably are the minority.

[Vlada47]

*Sarcasm alert* What? Like... only minority thinks they are female?   How is supposed to a female look like according to the majority then? 

[Qun00]

No more derailing this thread, please.

[LightningPoodle]

Because they are both witches. There is a history of real world witch stuff. Stories, mythologies, even an entire era in history where they burnt suspected witches. It's easy for people to see a witch wearing dark colours (Morrigan and Flemeth) as bad. 

[myahele]

It depends on what you mean by trust worthy. 

 

They're goal, namely Flemeth, is to preserve as much of the old magic as possible. Which probably might not benefit the current people living in the world

[Dai Grepher]

Okay, serious answer. Flemeth is a rapist, murderer, and child abuser who is evasive when asked about Morrigan's accusations, and then she tries to kill the only person who can stop the blight. Morrigan admits to being a lying, manipulative, promiscuous thief in conversations. She withholds information about the Ultimate Sacrifice. She tries to seduce a male Warden in order to get him to cooperate later on with the Dark Ritual. She abandon's the party if the Dark Ritual is refused, and yes, of course I hold that against her. She was told to assist the Wardens in ending the blight. She walked away from that responsibility and made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.

 

But I will acknowledge the fact that Morrigan changed after that. She stayed at the mirror and waited for the Hero so she could somewhat explain herself. She left information about the cure for the taint. She helped the Inquisition. But I would still call her untrustworthy. She doesn't share the secrets of the elvhen if she drinks from the Well. She lies at least once that I know of in conversation with the Inquisitor. She doesn't help Celene even though she claims to be protecting her. And if she drank from the Well, then she's bound to Mythal, which makes her untrustworthy no matter what.

[aerisblight]

To be honest; the only character that i trust completely are my pcs. Everyone seems to have a hidden agenda

[Illegitimus]

Morrigan never admitted to being promiscuous. 

 

Okay, serious answer. Flemeth is a rapist, murderer, and child abuser who is evasive when asked about Morrigan's accusations, and then she tries to kill the only person who can stop the blight. Morrigan admits to being a lying, manipulative, promiscuous thief in conversations. She withholds information about the Ultimate Sacrifice. She tries to seduce a male Warden in order to get him to cooperate later on with the Dark Ritual. She abandon's the party if the Dark Ritual is refused, and yes, of course I hold that against her. She was told to assist the Wardens in ending the blight. She walked away from that responsibility and made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped,

 

Success more than survival.  I mean rejecting the ritual means someone's definitely going to die.  By rights that should be the Warden since the Warden has been taking the lead all along.  I think Morrigan expects it to be the Warden.  

[Dai Grepher]

Morrigan never admitted to being promiscuous. 

 

 

Success more than survival.  I mean rejecting the ritual means someone's definitely going to die.  By rights that should be the Warden since the Warden has been taking the lead all along.  I think Morrigan expects it to be the Warden.  

 

She admits to being with men previously.

 

Survival. Without her the only other possible mage is Wynne (in a non-mage playthrough). And many of Wynne's spells are naturally geared toward party support rather than offense. Without Morrigan the party has a lesser chance of surviving the battle long enough to get to the archdemon and kill it.

[LightningPoodle]

She admits to being with men previously.

 

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

[Dai Grepher]

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

 

Yes.

 

She also propositions Sten.

[Jester]

Yes.

Ekhm... may I ask why?

Nobody is a virgin among your companions, apart from Alistair.

[Qun00]

Because they are both witches. There is a history of real world witch stuff. Stories, mythologies, even an entire era in history where they burnt suspected witches. It's easy for people to see a witch wearing dark colours (Morrigan and Flemeth) as bad.

Yeah, that describes the "Zap! Frog time" kind of people.

Okay, serious answer. Flemeth is a rapist, murderer, and child abuser who is evasive when asked about Morrigan's accusations, and then she tries to kill the only person who can stop the blight. Morrigan admits to being a lying, manipulative, promiscuous thief in conversations. She withholds information about the Ultimate Sacrifice. She tries to seduce a male Warden in order to get him to cooperate later on with the Dark Ritual. She abandon's the party if the Dark Ritual is refused, and yes, of course I hold that against her. She was told to assist the Wardens in ending the blight. She walked away from that responsibility and made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.

But I will acknowledge the fact that Morrigan changed after that. She stayed at the mirror and waited for the Hero so she could somewhat explain herself. She left information about the cure for the taint. She helped the Inquisition. But I would still call her untrustworthy. She doesn't share the secrets of the elvhen if she drinks from the Well. She lies at least once that I know of in conversation with the Inquisitor. She doesn't help Celene even though she claims to be protecting her. And if she drank from the Well, then she's bound to Mythal, which makes her untrustworthy no matter what.

I wouldn't so much call it evasive as simply finding Morrigan's suspicion amusing and not bothering to correct her. And as Flemeth said, "you were never in danger from me".

To be fair, you are given the chance to ask Morrigan whether she merely used you and well, I found her response convincing enough. Puppy eyes and everything. Following the examples, the mage advisor role was just a desguise, and she does tell the Inquisitor the truth afterwards on her own initiative.

As for what will be done with the knowledgs from the Well, who knows? It's too early to be sure.

[sunnydxmen]

if i was morrigan i would have left the warden wanted to die im not dying with him. also whats wrong with her having sex thats what adults do after all.

[Donk]

Dunno bout Morrigan..

 

But I don't trust any body who can suddenly transform from

 

(old ugly hag, probably with yellow teeth)

 

to...

 

(NILF - nanna I'd like to f----)

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I didn't want no more Ancients Gods running around (especially no one in baby form) and she left me so I got pretty betrayed. I don't trust anything that comes from Flemeth, she always has an agenda.

[Jakeul200493]

I'd say they were more chaotic good than evil. Flemeth "nudges" history when it's required, she saved King Maric in The Stolen Throne so he could go on to rule Ferelden. She tasked Yavana to preserve the ancient dragons. She sent Morrigan with the Hero of Ferelden to ensure the Blight was defeated. She tasked Morrigan to create Kieran, to preserve the soul of an Old God. She saved Hawke so they could fulfil their destiny as the Champion of Kirkwall. She aided the Inquisition through the power of the Vir'abelasan. 

 

Morrigan started out with the same intentions as Flemeth but now walks her own path. She too tries to seek out ways to preserve what once was- that doesn't make her evil. From a real-world perspective, if we had people like Morrigan in the middle ages preserving the lore of pagan and "heretical" civilizations, we'd be in a much better position today.

[Jester]

Dunno bout Morrigan..

 

But I don't trust any body who can suddenly transform from

 

(old ugly hag, probably with yellow teeth)

 

to...

 

(NILF - nanna I'd like to f----)

Oh c'mon. Her sexuality is visible, but not in an inviting way. She reminds me of a praying mantis.

She'd probably just eat you afterwards.

 

Literally. 

[Dai Grepher]

Ekhm... may I ask why?

Nobody is a virgin among your companions, apart from Alistair.

 

Shale might be. Er, um... But this isn't necessarily about being a virgin. It's about being promiscuous. It's a bad thing because it shows Morrigan doesn't do it for love, nor does she stand by the man she has sex with. It's just a game to her. It doesn't mean anything. And she has done this several times. It's the same case with a bard like Leliana. They use sex and seduction to get close to a target. It's dishonest.

 

I wouldn't so much call it evasive as simply finding Morrigan's suspicion amusing and not bothering to correct her. And as Flemeth said, "you were never in danger from me".

To be fair, you are given the chance to ask Morrigan whether she merely used you and well, I found her response convincing enough. Puppy eyes and everything. Following the examples, the mage advisor role was just a desguise, and she does tell the Inquisitor the truth afterwards on her own initiative.

As for what will be done with the knowledgs from the Well, who knows? It's too early to be sure.

 

But the point is that she was confronted with the accusation and she did nothing to deny it or explain why Morrigan was mistaken (she wasn't mistaken, BTW). Instead she tried to bargain with the Warden. And what was the bargain? Give Morrigan another book of spells and deceive her into thinking Flemeth was slain. Untrustworthy.

 

Talk is cheap. If she truly loved the Warden she would not have ran in any case. Not saying she didn't have some love for him, but her primary love was always for the old god soul.

 

Morrigan is depicted leaving Skyhold in the epilogue. Clearly she does not stay where her knowledge can be put to good use, and where she can be watched.

 

if i was morrigan i would have left the warden wanted to die im not dying with him. also whats wrong with her having sex thats what adults do after all.

 

My Warden did not want to die, and told Morrigan as much. He planned to let Loghain take the final blow. And even if the Warden would have to do it, that would not cause Morrigan to die in the process. Morrigan had sex without love, which means she only wanted to use men and get things from them.

 

I'd say they were more chaotic good than evil. Flemeth "nudges" history when it's required, she saved King Maric in The Stolen Throne so he could go on to rule Ferelden. She tasked Yavana to preserve the ancient dragons. She sent Morrigan with the Hero of Ferelden to ensure the Blight was defeated. She tasked Morrigan to create Kieran, to preserve the soul of an Old God. She saved Hawke so they could fulfil their destiny as the Champion of Kirkwall. She aided the Inquisition through the power of the Vir'abelasan. 

 

Morrigan started out with the same intentions as Flemeth but now walks her own path. She too tries to seek out ways to preserve what once was- that doesn't make her evil. From a real-world perspective, if we had people like Morrigan in the middle ages preserving the lore of pagan and "heretical" civilizations, we'd be in a much better position today.

 

No, she saved Maric so that she could one day get his blood to awaken the Great Dragons. She didn't care about Ferelden. Why would anyone want to trust someone who wants to awaken dangerous beasts? She sent Morrigan with the Wardens with the purpose of doing the Dark Ritual with one of them and obtaining the old god soul. She used Kieran as a container for an ancient evil, harming his mind in the process. She saved Hawke so that her amulet would be delivered to Sundermount, thus preserving her own life. She aided the Inquisition because Corypheus was using an elven artifact. She need it out of his hands, and possibly in her own. And the Well was hardly helpful to the one who is now bound to it.

 

Paganism is evil. Likewise, in the DA universe, the old gods are evil. Dragons are evil. The elvhen "gods" are evil. Their types of magic are evil.

[SwobyJ]

They lie all the time. They withhold relevant information all the time. Both have their own agendas. That they temporarily partially align with yours is another matter.

 

We may have trust in them, but they are clearly written to not be worthy of that trust, whether or not the trust will still end up a good thing or not.

 

For the record, I trust both. But I will also do so with the understanding that in the longer run of the DA story beyond my particular protagonist, they're completely beyond my control, and are always at least partially using me as a tool, and they're not a true trusted ally. Even Morrigan's relative possible (depending on choices) niceness in DAI is very likely meant to flatter the Inquisitor's authority, not actually honest deference to it.

[TraiHarder]

I mean just both if their demeanors in general. Each has a dark more grim demeanor that surrounds them that just makes u want to be suspicious of them right away. I mean in DA2 like WTF I'm suppose to trust this kinda hot old lady who just went from Dragon to Hot old Lady and my hawke was a mage so she was skeptical of such magic right away.

And we don't really know why Flemeth has had her hand in every hero of each game so far. She seems to be pushing them all in the direction she wants them to go.

[Avaraen]

Okay, serious answer. Flemeth is a rapist, murderer, and child abuser who is evasive when asked about Morrigan's accusations, and then she tries to kill the only person who can stop the blight.

 

That's not quite right; Flemeth actually will allow the Warden to walk away. You don't have to take the false grimoire or tell Morrigan you've done her dirty work. You can literally say "I'm staying out of it" and go on your way. Flemeth gives you multiple opportunities to leave and won't harm you unless you force her (you don't expect her to just stand there and take it, do you? ).

 

The only direct knowledge we have of Flemeth comes from our own interactions with her - which have been largely beneficial for us, even if she clearly has her own agenda - and the stories of a verbally abusive manipulator. As you said:

 

Morrigan admits to being a lying, manipulative, promiscuous thief in conversations.

 

We only have Morrigan's word about her childhood with Flemeth; she could easily be lying to gain an ally in her quest for power. Not to say that Flemeth is entirely benign, but I wouldn't take Morrigan's word for it.

[CoM Solaufein]

I trust them as far as I could throw them.