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What reasons are there to question whether Morrigan and Flemeth are trustworthy?


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#26
Illegitimus

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T

We only have Morrigan's word about her childhood with Flemeth; she could easily be lying to gain an ally in her quest for power. Not to say that Flemeth is entirely benign, but I wouldn't take Morrigan's word for it.

 

Flemeth confirms that Morrigan is exactly what she raised her to be, social darwinism and all when she talks to Hawke.  Additionally we get to see what Flemeth is NOT like in the Sloth demon's dreamscape.  The actor-daemon playing Flemeth can't get her right because while Morrigan yearns for an affectionate mother she can't believe in one.  


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#27
MidnightWolf

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Flemeth confirms that Morrigan is exactly what she raised her to be, social darwinism and all when she talks to Hawke.  Additionally we get to see what Flemeth is NOT like in the Sloth demon's dreamscape.  The actor-daemon playing Flemeth can't get her right because while Morrigan yearns for an affectionate mother she can't believe in one.

Flemeth saying that Morrigan is how she raised her to be, does not mean she was abusive.
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#28
Neon Rising Winter

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I think of it this way. From the perspective of Morrigan and Flemeth they're each off playing a different game to our protagonists, one with different objectives. In the places where their agendas and our agendas meet they are prepared to join forces and co-operate if it's advantageous to them. You can trust them in the same way that other characters in the game can trust us. A bit, probably, if it's to their advantage, or at least not actively to their disadvantage, but watch your back if that's not the case.



#29
Gilsa

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On my first character, Aeducan got played by Bhelen so there was definitely a sense of deja vu when Morrigan revealed that she had ulterior motives in staying with the warden. She wouldn't give straight answers or divulge why she wanted the soul. Aeducan was at 100% friendship and "killed" Flemeth at Morrigan's request. To have Morrigan keep the cards close to her chest AND still walk on the warden after all that, that was a doozy. Aeducan only tracked her down in Witch Hunt to find out why the dark ritual was so important, but Morrigan still wouldn't answer any of the questions simply because she had been denied the OGB.

 

I know there was a friendship path of the dark ritual that got cut out and I have Brosca who is the father of the OGB so I know there are layers to Morrigan. Unfortunately that IS how she came across for the first game. It was a bit of a surprise to hear her express regret in Inquisition on how she and the warden had parted on bad terms. That was nice. And because there's no OGB in that world state, she continues to lack the character development she gains from being a mother.



#30
TeaLulu

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For me, it was mostly how they carried themselves.

 

For Origins, Morrigan was just...utterly a b. She insulted your companions, and everything and anything she disagreed with. Chantry, circle, templars, etc. Rather than having an intelligent conversation about the matter, she just makes a snide remark about how stupid/foolish something is.

 

I never played a male warden and never romanced Morrigan, but there is no excuse for her abandoning the Warden if they won't go through with her plot.

 

Atleast Solas waits until the villain is defeated before vanishing. Morrigan leaves just to spite you if you refuse her plan.

 

Not once does Morrigan offer an adequate explanation for her ritual; Wanting to "Save the old magics" and what not is not sufficient, when the entire world is under the belief these old magics are the cause of blights and all the world's evils. You can't just say "Well, they're wrong" and be done with it. There was no build up from her that I recall that might lead me to believe that the Old Gods WEREN'T evil, so why would she try to pass that over on me at the very very end?

 

It was entirely the attitude combined with the actions. Lets say Morrigan hadn't been written like a grade-a b, and instead was more of a soft-spoken apostate. Lets say she was more like Solas and was willing to offer some explanation as to why she thought the way she did, as opposed to a semi-rant that always wound up insultive and spoken in a deriding tone as if the individual you are explaining things to is a child who cant possibly understand.

 

I don't trust her because of how cagey she is. Honestly, I don't think she understands half of what she's doing in any of the games. She's riding off her mother's coattails, off of what Flemeth told her to do, without fully understanding WHY she's doing it, but not being willing to admit to her ignorance or listen to other people's ideas. As soon as you do something that completely throws a wrench in her plans, she throws a fit and bails. Considering her response to you disagreeing with her is to act like you're an insignificant child and deride you, that falls right in line with her attitude.

 

Morrigan doesn't care about Celene, she doesn't care about the Inquisition, she only cares about her goals. If there wasn't an Eluvian or ancient elven magic involved with Corypheus and his plots, I doubt she'd even help. She'd probably have bailed from the Inquisition fairly early if Corypheus was going after Dwarven something or another. If you drink from the Well instead of letting her, she throws a childish fit, as if she would have been a better fit...even if you're an elven mage with all history and magic knowledge perks unlocked.

 

Meanwhile, Flemeth is this thing from legend, as are all the daughters of the "Witch of the Wilds". They once warred against all of Ferelden, coming up from the South with an army. Flemeth is manipulating history in favor of her goals. How many "heroes" could there have been that she didn't assist because they didn't fall in line with her plans? Maric was helped, but why didn't Flemeth help his mother, or father, or even prevent Ferelden from falling to Orlais in the first place? You do not hear "Witch of the Wilds" and think good things. On top of that, Flemeth doesn't really deny any of these stories. There are no excuses or explainations from Flemeth, Yavana, or Morrigan. No "Those tales are exaggerated. People will always villify that which bests them, that which they don't understand. I mean no harm to Thedas, I only wish to help. If you give me a chance, I will prove it" etc. There's only "You don't understand, ignorant fool."
 

Out of all of them Flemeth is probably most trustworthy. I admit perhaps some things shouldn't be told, some knowledge not spread. But I still wouldn't trust her completely.

 

If they had put on a mask and pretended, at least, to be proper and polite, maybe I'd trust them a bit more. But all I got from any of them was just this underlying character flaw of being manipulative, arrogant, and haughty.


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#31
KumoriYami

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I think the main issue with both Flemeth and Morrigan is that they both have their own agendas and are quite willing to intervene to ensure that what they steer however to ensure that they get the most desired results. At least Morrigan tells you that she has an interest in preserving the magic of old, and you understand her motivations you can trust her to act accordingly to them, but Flemeth remains a complete mystery in her reasons for her actions.



#32
Kakistos_

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I don't think Morrigan and Flemeth are any less trustworthy than any other characters and companions that were not 100% up front and honest about their goals, tactics and motivations. Most companions have their own secrets, i mean, we don't even know Isabella's real name and hello Solas. Morrigan and Flemeth are certainly mysterious and dangerous but I would trust them over individuals such as Iron Bull and Talis, knowing what I do about the Qun.



#33
Illegitimus

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Flemeth saying that Morrigan is how she raised her to be, does not mean she was abusive.

 

Really?  How does one go about deliberately raising someone to be a power-hungry misanthrope who believes that love is a weakness to be eschewed at all costs, and who decides to kill her own parent?   (Admittedly it's easier to bring yourself to kill your parent when you know it won't take but...)


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#34
jedidotflow

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Because they're secretive: They know more than they let on. They're also red herrings, though.
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#35
Andromelek

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I think it's because they let most of people looking as a bunch of useless fools, also, they are the most beautiful females on the franchise (many could be also jealous for that) I don't even know why people takes them as selfish when their goals often benefit a third party rather than themselves; Dark Ritual is to save Urthemiel's ass, Yavana was protecting great Dragons, while no one is fully honest, at least I see their tasks as noble, and that's why I trust them.
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#36
Aren

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In both Origins and Inquisition you have companions who are suspicious of Morrigan and just seem to expect her to betray you in the first chance she gets. And yet... that just never happens.

The closest thing to that was her quitting after you refuse the Dark Ritual, but I don't see what the big deal is.
 

The big deal is,that she lied since the beginning and deceived the Warden,that she used or try to the Warden against FLemeth then leaves because she doesn't get what she wanted,plus she tried to interfere with the AD death and preserve his soul for some unknown goals...
that more than enough to paint Morrigan as untrustworthy
Flemeth situation is even more complicated,child abuser,rapist woman with the chasind,infused with some goddess that seek revenge.
Even If she didn't directly lied to the Warden,she is not willing to tell to you anything about vital questions in critical situations.
Still i usually leave her in peace in her hut,if i don't bother her she will not bother me


#37
Reznore57

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I sort of trust them , I guess.

Flemythal , well...trusting or not trusting is not an issue.She's way more powerful than any of our heroes and knows way more , when she appears you have no choice but to accept her help or die.

Warden in Ostaggar , Hawke surrounded by darkspawn , Inquisitor who doesn't know how to deal with an immortal Corypheus.

You deal with her with the grimoire business but she's pretty straight forward , she isn't going to explain what she plans for Morrigan .

 

Morrigan well...in Inquisition you learn she wants to preserve old powers and just don't really know what the hell she's doing.

She's willing to get an old god in her uterus , but she's not clear on what a old god is and what its destiny could be.

She 's also willing to drink some magical  indoctrination soup , again she doesn't really know what it does but whatever...

I think at this point she's proven she's ready to take one for the team .


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#38
Aren

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To be honest; the only character that i trust completely are my pcs. Everyone seems to have a hidden agenda

Not dog



#39
KaiserShep

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Not dog

Dog is the only one we can trust unconditionally. 


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#40
Aren

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I sort of trust them , I guess.

Flemythal , well...trusting or not trusting is not an issue.She's way more powerful than any of our heroes 

DA 1st rule,the hero always get the invincibility curtain which leads the protagonist to be off the radar from anyone else in terms of power.



#41
Aren

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Dog is the only one we can trust unconditionally. 

you dont trust Sandal?



#42
KaiserShep

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you dont trust Sandal?

Sandal is the Keyser Soze of Dragon Age. Just you watch. 



#43
Aren

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Honestly i have not understand yet her role with Celene,she was only an advisor or she was hired to be also  Celene personal protector against the danger of magical artifact like the leuvians used by both Briala and Gaspard?

What she was doing for the emperess excatly?



#44
Ryzaki

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Okay, serious answer. Flemeth is a rapist, murderer, and child abuser who is evasive when asked about Morrigan's accusations, and then she tries to kill the only person who can stop the blight. Morrigan admits to being a lying, manipulative, promiscuous thief in conversations. She withholds information about the Ultimate Sacrifice. She tries to seduce a male Warden in order to get him to cooperate later on with the Dark Ritual. She abandon's the party if the Dark Ritual is refused, and yes, of course I hold that against her. She was told to assist the Wardens in ending the blight. She walked away from that responsibility and made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.

 

But I will acknowledge the fact that Morrigan changed after that. She stayed at the mirror and waited for the Hero so she could somewhat explain herself. She left information about the cure for the taint. She helped the Inquisition. But I would still call her untrustworthy. She doesn't share the secrets of the elvhen if she drinks from the Well. She lies at least once that I know of in conversation with the Inquisitor. She doesn't help Celene even though she claims to be protecting her. And if she drank from the Well, then she's bound to Mythal, which makes her untrustworthy no matter what.

 

My only issue with this is the bizarre need to add promiscuity to Morrigan's flaws. Who gives a damn. Everything else is spot on though.


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#45
Cobra's_back

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That's not quite right; Flemeth actually will allow the Warden to walk away. You don't have to take the false grimoire or tell Morrigan you've done her dirty work. You can literally say "I'm staying out of it" and go on your way. Flemeth gives you multiple opportunities to leave and won't harm you unless you force her (you don't expect her to just stand there and take it, do you? :) ).

 

The only direct knowledge we have of Flemeth comes from our own interactions with her - which have been largely beneficial for us, even if she clearly has her own agenda - and the stories of a verbally abusive manipulator. As you said:

 

 

We only have Morrigan's word about her childhood with Flemeth; she could easily be lying to gain an ally in her quest for power. Not to say that Flemeth is entirely benign, but I wouldn't take Morrigan's word for it.

This is how I see it. People are responding to the word witches. So far they are neither evil or good. Both can be reasoned with. Flemeth has helped King Marc, the Warden, Hawk and even the Inquisitor.  

 

I'm humored by how many people cover for Solas. He actually caused the breech and wants to commit genocide. Let's face it the Magisters cause the blight and Solas caused the breech. Both Flemeth and Morrigan have helped but for their own reasons.


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#46
Cobra's_back

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I think it's because they let most of people looking as a bunch of useless fools, also, they are the most beautiful females on the franchise (many could be also jealous for that) I don't even know why people takes them as selfish when their goals often benefit a third party rather than themselves; Dark Ritual is to save Urthemiel's ass, Yavana was protecting great Dragons, while no one is fully honest, at least I see their tasks as noble, and that's why I trust them.

I didn't like the fact that Alistair killed her. 



#47
DeLaatsteGeitenneuker

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In both Origins and Inquisition you have companions who are suspicious of Morrigan and just seem to expect her to betray you in the first chance she gets. And yet... that just never happens.

The closest thing to that was her quitting after you refuse the Dark Ritual, but I don't see what the big deal is.

The only people who were bound by an oath were Alistair and the Warden. Everyone else was free to go anytime they wanted. I wouldn't have had a problem with Leliana leaving if she so desired.

And in Inquisition, well, she is as faithful as any good ally.

In Flemeth's case, it has more to do with the fandom. Some believe she is a potential villain, but I just don't see it.

She might not be a saint, as her ex-lovers would tell you if they were alive. However, a person who makes a habit of aiding heroes of legend is far from ill intentioned.

Flemeth is dead.



#48
vertigomez

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I love Morrigan, but she has this thing where she's obsessed with ancient knowledge - dangerous ancient knowledge - and isn't too fussed about how... knowing-for-the-sake-of-knowing affects everybody else. How it isn't always worth it. From the way she reacts to the Anvil, to preserving the soul of an Old God, her desire to drink from the Well... I get the feeling she'd be kind of okay with Solas's Veil-tearing scheme. >____>

So, I guess it depends on what you trust them to do?

#49
TraiHarder

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Flemeth is dead.

 

Wrong
 



#50
Ryzaki

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I wouldn't trust Morrigan with a sock. Much less any power.

 

The only reason she drinks from the well is because I trust Mythal less. Least this way if worst comes to worst I can shove a sword through her gut without Mythal pulling my strings.