505 réponses à ce sujet

[thewatcheruatu]

Maybe one of the lore masters can help me out. I'm not totally sure I caught the entirety of Alistair's reason for wanting Loghain murdered at the Landsmeet. Is it to do with the fact he sent assassins after the surviving Grey Wardens, or does Alistair totally blame Loghain for Duncan dying at Ostagar?

 

I'm having a hard time in my current playthrough trying to decide what to do with Loghain. I kind of want to spare him, because I think defeating him in single combat kind of granted him a moment of clarity, and I actually agree with Riordan that he could serve the Wardens. But at the same time, my Warden is romancing Alistair, and there doesn't seem to be any way to talk Alistair out of a giant hissy fit if I do decide to spare him. 

 

It's a tough situation. It would be easier if I understand why Alistair is so blood thirsty all of a sudden.

[theskymoves]

Firstly, it's not 'all of the sudden'... Alistair is quite vocal in his dialogue throughout the game regarding the need to hold Loghain accountable.

 

He strongly believes (whether correctly or not) that Loghain leaving the field played a large role in the defeat at Ostagar, and led directly to the deaths of  Duncan, the rest of the Fereldan Grey Wardens, and Cailan.

 

And no, you can't really talk him down, not on that. It's Alistair or Loghain.

 

For the good explanation of Alistair's POV directly from the man who wrote Alistair, I'll point you to this post (and the others by Mr Gaider in that thread).

 

(And a caveat: while I'm not a 'lore master' I do think I have a fair understanding of Alistair as a character.)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He's pretty clear about his reasons at the Landsmeet I think. "This man abandoned our brothers and then blamed us for the deed. He hunted us down like animals." 

 

But mostly, yes, he blames him for the death of Duncan and the other wardens by leaving the to die at Ostagar. If he executes him he says it's for Duncan.

[sylvanaerie]

A good question.  Depends on how much of Alistair's dialogue you opened up.  He tells you a lot about himself and reading between the lines gives you some answers too.

 

First off, he grew up without a mother.  His father didn't acknowledge his existence beyond foisting him off on Eamon to raise.  He's told how worthless he is, that he is a threat to Cailan's throne.  Eamon took care of him, barely, as Maric and Fiona wanted his parentage to remain a secret and so he couldn't divulge it to his wife Isolde.  She felt resentment to the boy she thought was Eamon's bastard (and a potential threat to her own son's legacy).  So she took every opportunity to belittle and torment the boy, finally convincing Eamon to send him to the Chantry.  Let's not bother to ask Alistair what he wants.  Just ship him off.

 

Along comes Duncan, the first person who cared what Alistair wanted.  And what Alistair wanted was out.  To be a Grey warden, something he was proud of.  And here he finally found some folks who felt for the first time like "home" and "family" to him.  If you took him into the Circle Tower, you find his nightmare isn't a nightmare at all, but a wish for acceptance and a home and family.

 

Everything that battle is tied to Loghain sticking the plan.  Now I won't argue the validity of Loghain's departure from the field.  Everyone except Loghain insists it was Loghain's departure that caused the loss, frankly I blame it on the three principles in charge in equal parts for different reasons I won't go into.  Suffice to say I don't think Loghain should shoulder that entire fiasco's blame, but it succeeds in killing every grey warden in Ferelden except for Alistair and the HoF.

 

Everything done afterward however...

 

He races back to Denerim, seizes the throne, and then through threats and bloody violence tries to enlist the aid of the Bannorn against the darkspawn.  Which fails miserably because he doesn't know diddly about how to talk to the nobles.

 

Afterward he systematically hires assassins and bounty hunters to harass the PC and his/her companions, sells Ferelden citizens to Tevinter blood mages, ignores the darkspawn sweeping over the nation to go after the rebellious noblity, captures and tortures innocents, poisons Eamon (who I don't particularly care for but Alistair is fond of), crawls into the 'political bed' with Howe of all snakes and generally puts the nation in a precarious state. 

 

Add to this the crushing weight of 'survivor's guilt' Alistair is experiencing and that's a cocktail of misery that means Loghain is his 'breaking point'.  He cannot conceive of inviting this man who has done so much damage and harmed so many into the organization Alistair loves (and frankly idolizes).  Alistair's fury has blinded him to the fact that the organization is 'grey' wardens.  Not white.

 

I would think someone who romances Alistair would have a hard time justifying sparing Loghain since over the course of the 'year' of the Blight, you would have grown close enough to know that there is no way he'd want someone who has spent the last year trying to kill you in the same camp with him.  Trust just wouldn't be there.  

You may have to save his recruitment for a subsequent warden.

[thewatcheruatu]

Firstly, it's not 'all of the sudden'... Alistair is quite vocal in his dialogue throughout the game regarding the need to hold Loghain accountable.

 

He strongly believes (whether correctly or not) that Loghain leaving the field played a large role in the defeat at Ostagar, and led directly to the deaths of  Duncan, the rest of the Fereldan Grey Wardens, and Cailan.

 

And no, you can't really talk him down, not on that. It's Alistair or Loghain.

 

Yeah, I guess not. Too bad. I mean, my Warden was there, too, and she didn't entirely blame Loghain for leaving the field at Ostagar. Tactically, maybe it didn't make sense to join that battle. Whatever else can be said about Loghain, he's a respected general, and it's difficult to Monday Morning Quarterback the decision of somebody so seasoned in war without having stood where he was standing at the time.

 

Everything else he did...well, yeah. I'm not going to lose any sleep about executing him, but Alistair had been such a "Just tell me what to do and think" companion throughout the game that I was kind of hoping he'd leave me an out.

[Illegitimus]

Yes.  Alistair blames Loghain for the death of his father figure.  That's about all there is to it.  

[Qun00]

Duncan is awesome, that's the only reason you need.

[Xetykins]

Someone did not bother conversing with Alistair

[theskymoves]

Someone did not bother conversing with Alistair

 

'I'm more used to people not really listening when I go on about things.' - Alistair

[Darkly Tranquil]

Sylvanaerie has pretty much summed it up, but I would just add that Alistair also hero worshipped Duncan for rescuing him from being a Templar, and that the Wardens were the first time in his life that Alistair felt like he belonged and was valued, and (as far as he sees it) Loghain took all that from him. Alistair felt like he owed Duncan for saving him, and that's he failed to repay that debt.

[thewatcheruatu]

Someone did not bother conversing with Alistair

 

I'm pretty sure I had every conversation it was possible to have with Alistair prior to this point. At any rate, he hadn't had anything new to say for a long time. But I will freely confess that I may not have always been listening, because, you know...Alistair.

 

I honestly don't really remember him talking specifically about Loghain too much. Obviously, I know Alistair was tremendously broken up about Duncan dying, but I didn't realize he pinned all of his angst about it on Loghain outside of some half-understood need to have somebody to blame. He may have said as much, but again, I just don't remember.

 

Also, because my Warden is a tank, I didn't bring Alistair out of camp a lot, so I may have missed some of his relevant contributions.

 

In any case, this was a really difficult moment for me, because the whole thing just felt wrong. My Warden executed Loghain herself, because she didn't want Alistair taking the throne literally with blood on his hands. But at the same time, it made my Warden feel like little more than an executioner, and now she kind of resents Alistair for putting her in that position.

 

I think I'm actually going to replay that part of the game and make him do it himself if he's so set on it. 

 

Either way, Loghain paying for his crimes really isn't that big of a deal. But executing him in the middle of the Landsmeet felt a step too far.

[Mike3207]

Loghain is the surviving member of the triad responsible for making the choices at Ostagar. Alistair is not going to blame Duncan and he won't blame Cailan, so all his vitriol falls on Loghain for that battle. He has tunnel vision in that respect, but it's no different than the tunnel vision you get with the rest of your companions. Only Dog can be trusted unconditionally.

[Kynare]

A better question to ask is "Why should I spare Loghain?"

Alistair's gonna hate you if you spare him no matter what, so you have to have a good reason! Mine was "can't marry the queen if I allow the execution of her father".

[sylvanaerie]

I'm pretty sure I had every conversation it was possible to have with Alistair prior to this point. At any rate, he hadn't had anything new to say for a long time. But I will freely confess that I may not have always been listening, because, you know...Alistair.

 

I honestly don't really remember him talking specifically about Loghain too much. Obviously, I know Alistair was tremendously broken up about Duncan dying, but I didn't realize he pinned all of his angst about it on Loghain outside of some half-understood need to have somebody to blame. He may have said as much, but again, I just don't remember.

 

Also, because my Warden is a tank, I didn't bring Alistair out of camp a lot, so I may have missed some of his relevant contributions.

 

In any case, this was a really difficult moment for me, because the whole thing just felt wrong. My Warden executed Loghain herself, because she didn't want Alistair taking the throne literally with blood on his hands. But at the same time, it made my Warden feel like little more than an executioner, and now she kind of resents Alistair for putting her in that position.

 

I think I'm actually going to replay that part of the game and make him do it himself if he's so set on it. 

 

Either way, Loghain paying for his crimes really isn't that big of a deal. But executing him in the middle of the Landsmeet felt a step too far.

 

He can't blame Duncan (who he hero worshiped) and Cailan (his brother).  Both already paid with their lives for their mistakes that battle.  Loghain is the only one still walking around.

 

People need someone to focus their anger and blame (scapegoat--if you don't believe Loghain warrants the blame).  While I feel some of the blame for what happened is on Loghain, I don't believe all of it should be.  But since the other two responsible for the failure are dead, it's kind of hard to do much about it after the fact.

 

I hold him responsible for his crimes after Ostagar which are numerous enough to warrant a trial and possible execution.  What I truly wish, was the game gave you a third option than "Recruit this one guy in all of Ferelden" (WTF was up with that, Bioware? ) or "Off with his head".  I'd much rather imprison him in the tower of Ft Drakon till after the Blight is dealt with for carrying out of whatever sentence his crimes warranted.  I didn't mind killing him as much as I mind killing him in front of his daughter.  Anora may be a pain the ass, but it was still her father.  Thank the Maker she's practical about it and doesn't hold a grudge.

[Mike3207]

 

 

I hold him responsible for his crimes after Ostagar which are numerous enough to warrant a trial and possible execution.  What I truly wish, was the game gave you a third option than "Recruit this one guy in all of Ferelden" (WTF was up with that, Bioware? ) or "Off with his head".  I'd much rather imprison him in the tower of Ft Drakon till after the Blight is dealt with for carrying out of whatever sentence his crimes warranted.  I didn't mind killing him as much as I mind killing him in front of his daughter.  Anora may be a pain the ass, but it was still her father.  Thank the Maker she's practical about it and doesn't hold a grudge.

You were going to hold off on imprisoning him until after the Archdemon is defeated, right? If you didn't Loghain would just die with everyone else in Fort Drakon when the Archdemon and darkspawn attacked it.

[Darkly Tranquil]

He can't blame Duncan (who he hero worshiped) and Cailan (his brother).  Both already paid with their lives for their mistakes that battle.  Loghain is the only one still walking around.
 
People need someone to focus their anger and blame (scapegoat--if you don't believe Loghain warrants the blame).  While I feel some of the blame for what happened is on Loghain, I don't believe all of it should be.  But since the other two responsible for the failure are dead, it's kind of hard to do much about it after the fact.
 
I hold him responsible for his crimes after Ostagar which are numerous enough to warrant a trial and possible execution.  What I truly wish, was the game gave you a third option than "Recruit this one guy in all of Ferelden" (WTF was up with that, Bioware? ) or "Off with his head".  I'd much rather imprison him in the tower of Ft Drakon till after the Blight is dealt with for carrying out of whatever sentence his crimes warranted.  I didn't mind killing him as much as I mind killing him in front of his daughter.  Anora may be a pain the ass, but it was still her father.  Thank the Maker she's practical about it and doesn't hold a grudge.

This is what makes the whole thing interesting and what makes Alistair's response so human - it's not rational, it's emotional, and it's distorted by his own feelings and prejudices. If Alistair just went along with it after having a bit of a sulk, then it would take away all the significance of it. The decision has weight because Alistair objects so vehemently and won't back down.

I'd also add that I think that Loghain has a lot of of the "die a hero or live long enough to become the villain" about him. His love of Ferelden and his hatred of Orlais become so obsessive that he is prepared to destroy the thing he loves (Ferelden and it's system of government) and become the thing he hates (a tyrant) to save it, and he seems largely blind to the hypocrisy of his own actions.

[Lazarillo]

Duncan is awesome, that's the only reason you need.

 

Duncan totally would've conscripted Loghain, though.

[themikefest]

I say its just Alistair wanting revenge for Duncan.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Duncan totally would've conscripted Loghain, though.

Of course he would have, but Alistair's reaction is a reflection of his idealised perception of Duncan and of the Grey Wardens.

[Qun00]

Duncan totally would've conscripted Loghain, though.

Yup, that he would.

As Riordan puts it, “We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us.”

That said, I didn't do it since killing Loghain is a requirement to have Alistair as sole ruler.

[Xetykins]

Duncan totally would've conscripted Loghain, though.

Well Duncan is also quite dead.

[sylvanaerie]

You were going to hold off on imprisoning him until after the Archdemon is defeated, right? If you didn't Loghain would just die with everyone else in Fort Drakon when the Archdemon and darkspawn attacked it.

 

Nope, because everyone seems to think the darkspawn are going for Redcliffe.  The PC doesn't discover till he gets to Redcliffe that the main force has marched toward Denerim.  Where exactly else would we have put him?  No where in Ferelden was safe.  One reason I expected Anora in the tower to be dead also, but I had her alive in my fanfic.

 

But imagine if we had, a scene we come into Ft Drakon, Loghain at the head of a handful of surviving soldiers finishing off a group of darkspawn.  Maybe he's already tainted, maybe he isn't. But he apologizes to the warden for everything he did wrong and swears to hold off any reinforcements coming into the fort for you as long as they can since we can't summon our armies there.  And maybe Alistair can get to make his peace with him too. 

 

He not only gets to be a hero again, but potentially dies as one without having his soul chomped up to shreds and the issue of what to do with him is resolved.  

So, he is recruited and has a 50/50 chance of being dead depending on what you recruited him for.  Or imprisoned and probably dies (off camera).  Or executed for the truly bloodthirsty wardens.

 

But maybe that's too bright an ending for such a dark and bloodthirsty game.

[springacres]

Duncan totally would've conscripted Loghain, though.

 

 

Yup, that he would.

As Riordan puts it, “We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us.”

That said, I didn't do it since killing Loghain is a requirement to have Alistair as sole ruler.

My Warden very nearly couldn't bring himself to kill Loghain, even knowing that Alistair would have disapproved.  He could forgive the man for leaving the field at Ostagar, for poisoning Eamon, and even (barely) for agreeing to side with the blood mage Uldred in support of mages' rights.  But making deals with Tevinter slavers to kidnap elves, including (possibly) his own parents?  Even though he hadn't seen them since being taken to the Tower, that was not something he could forgive.  Keeping Alistair as a friend and getting him set up with Anora was a nice bonus, though.

 

(He also would have disagreed vehemently with Riordan about  recruiting blood mages.   Kinslayers, traitors, rebels, apostates and all the rest of it, sure.  Blood mages?  They don't survive around him long enough to get recruited.)

[Neuro]

OP, I struggled with this part of this as well in my playthrough, and many of the people who chimed in on this thread advised me as well.  

 

I wasn't struck by Alistair's vehemence for Loghain's death-- that part made sense to me (the reasons above listed: Alistair blames L for Duncan's death [father], death of Grey Wardens [family], etc.).  However, I was really struck by Loghain's honesty and dignity after you defeat him in single combat (which you mentioned as well).  His 'moment of clarity' is really wonderful, genuine, and it made it much harder for me to want to execute him after that.  

 

However, remorse is good (ideal, in fact) but it does not always eschew punishment, either (though whether 'punishment' itself is a virtue is a different discussion).  I struggled with some of the same philosophical queries and quandaries in Blackwall's judgment in DA:I.  

 

Cool thread-- cheers!

[Vanalia]

The first time I was romancing Alistair, and didn't even tried the option "let's spare Loghain" to see Alistair's reaction, because I didn't want my romance to end like this. So I executed Loghain, but I think that if I had seen Alistair's childish reaction ("I'm abandonning you because you spared that guy! or i'll become king just to have him killed! or I will abandon you just before the final battle, like a coward, escaping my duties as a grey warden, and leaving YOU sacrifice against the archdemon")

 

If I had seen THAT, I would have spared Loghain. Seriously, Alistair, abandoning your loved one just before the final battle and let her sacrifice (ok, there are other ways but he doesn't know about it) just because you want revenge on one guy?

 

He should react "ok yes conscript him and make him sacrifice against the archdemon, like this everyone's happy, good riddance". But no, he leaves you anyway. He is the most selfish of all.

 

So now I'm playing again and I will definitly spare Loghain's life and kick Alistair out of the party. I like Alistair but I really don't like how he abandons you like a coward if you choose to spare Loghain, even if it's to make him sacrifice just after against the Archdemon.