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[nightscrawl]

^ It was, and it didn't change his opinion. But this is getting off topic, really.

[Monica21]

^ It was, and it didn't change his opinion. But this is getting off topic, really.

 

Gaider has a right to his opinion about decisions the player makes, but he doesn't have a right to the facts of what actually happened. And doubling down on an unsupported opinion because he forgot what happened is even more arrogant than whatever he claims to believe about a choice I made over and over again during the Landsmeet. Personally, I think Gaider came across as a bit of a bully in that thread, and often does. It's something I won't miss about him.

[Artona]

In my opinion Gaider's argumentation doesn't really make sense. First of all, believing that Warden's opinion is more important isn't selfish - Alistair, despite being older Warden, lets our character be a leader. And while he accepts our leadership during entire game, it's pretty obvious that our opinion is more important. He could lead the party, he refused. If I were crancky, I'd say he gladly let us carry that burden and it doesn't make sense to make Warden and Alistair partners. And "selfish" doesn't mean "ignoring opinion of others", it means "caring only about themselves"; letting Loghain live - for whatever reason - isn't selfish decision, Warden personally has nothing to gain - unless he does that to marry Anora, then sure - it's pure wish for power and something as stupid as Alistair's reaction. But I believe that isn't a case for most people - I think most gamers are thinking rather "more Warden the better, whatever it takes to win that war". 
And yes, we are the only arbiter - once again, Alistair refused that responsibility. He doesn't try to decide who'd make better Orzammar king, he doesn't decide how to resolve Connor's problem or elves vs werewolves conflict; at Landsmeet it is already clear that he is a sidekick - and it was his choice. 
Also, I don't get that comparison with Loghain - and it seems like Gaider's argumentation is built upon assumption: "you do that because you just want to feel oh-so-noble" and that isn't true in most cases. Besides that - his tantrum isn't a problem, the problem is that he leaves. That's unforgivable and shows that Alistair is in some way similar to Loghain: both of them were willing to risk losing the war with darkspawn because of their personal grudges and prejudices. How ironic, that Loghain is a man who can stand above that, not Alistair. 
Of course, that rant doesn't apply to hardened Alistair, who marries Anora. I mean - it still would be better to have four Wardens just in case, but it's mature and responsible of him to take the crown.

[Qis]

If i am at Alistair shoe, i will leave too, why would i be with a group who betray everything and me?

 

Let say i fought in the army, I and a recruit are the only survivor of the army, we learned that we got betrayed by our superiors, then we become a black sheep being accused of treason for the defeat in the battle we survived...we both being hunted down, there's a bounty on our head...i become the recruit friend, we going through everything together...we learn about so much exploits of our enemy...we also collect allies into our course....but in the end my friend spare the culprit and turn against me? WTF? I will leave and curse them all.

 

(Just to add, my superior being a war hero doesn't mean a thing....)

 

What would anyone do in Alistair situation?

 

Will you guys be in such group?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Because repulsion clouds reason.

[Willowhugger]

It's a kind of bizarre argument being forwarded by the people who think Alistair should have stayed. If someone murdered my best friend, let alone my father-figure, there's NO WAY IN HELL I'm going to serve in the same unit as them. Screw the apocalypse. It's a dumb decision but have people forgotten Alistair is an idiot? He's a lovable idiot but he's a guy who has no particular capacity for self-evaluation and acts on his passion.

Everyone keeps trying to talk reason and pragmatism in this thread but it's not about any of them. It's about revenge and justice and what they think the Wardens stands for. For Alistair, the Wardens are an honor and the highest calling (pun intended) you can follow. To be a warden is to be as Jory envisions them--great and epic heroes.

You have awarded Vidkun Quisling with this honor.

Alistair's view of the Wardens is not one of criminals but heroes.

Why does he quit? Because he can't serve in the same unit as Loghain and you just betrayed him by letting a monster in.

Because, again, Alistair doesn't accept any of Loghain's rationales. He's a traitor, a regicide, a murderer, and a monster.

Nothing more.

And you've clearly lost your mind choosing him over Alistair when he makes his ultimatum. Is it childish? Yes, but Alistair is childish.

No matter how much maturing he's done in the past year.

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

 

The big hole here is that despite the sympathetic reasoning of Alistair's perspective, he's wrong for leaving the Wardens.

 

W. R. O. N. G.

 

He knows that the Blight is destroying Ferelden. He knows that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can stop the Darkspawn. He knows that Grey Warden numbers are very low. He also has known about what's at stake since he's been fighting the Blight and gathering an army for the past year.

 

And he wants to just run away now of all times?

 

No. He doesn't get a pass for that. He abandoned the Wardens; the PC (who could have been his lover); his friends; and his own country. The same country that Duncan and the other wardens died to defend. The same country that his father fought tooth and nail to free. The country that his half-brother died to protect.

 

It's also wildly out of character for Alistair to abandon everything. I can see him deciding to cut off the PC for a personal betrayal or leaving the Wardens after the Blight is over. But that's not dramatic enough is it? So Alistair takes a level in jerk and leaves Ferelden in the middle of a blight.

 

And considering that the PC has been able to influence lords; kings; and even other companions at this point, there's no coherent reason why we shouldn't also be able to knock Alistair off his pedestal and remember the situation.

 

Also, Riorden should've told Alistair and the PC about the Archdemon by now. I am certain that probably would've changed Alistair's actions.

[Artona]

(...)

Being idiot is no justification. 

[Willowhugger]

The big hole here is that despite the sympathetic reasoning of Alistair's perspective, he's wrong for leaving the Wardens.
 
W. R. O. N. G.

And?

People do the wrong thing all the damned time in this game. Almost certainly, the Warden has done some sketchy things or made mistakes in their path to saving Fereldan. People are going to throw out Alistair's year of devoted service because he won't stand by and fight the final length WITH A MONSTER? Someone who had murdered their brothers and sisters?

That person is, IMHO, a ****y Warden Commander.

The problem with this perspective is it basically makes more of the choice than it is. Alistair has fought dragons, fought in the Deep Roads, recovered the ****ING HOLY GRAIL, fought against the Mage Uprising, and saved Redcliffe from the Zombie Apocalypse. He has done more for the people of Fereldan than anyone who is not named Calian or part of the party. SO THE HELL WHAT if he doesn't consider it his job to finish the final length of the journey.

He's done more than anyone else in the country to guaranteeing its safety and he's a hero many times over.

Not that anyone will remember it because Loghain gets to reap the rewards. The man who RUINED the country for fighting the Blight in the first place. If you can forgive Loghain, where's the forgiveness for Alistair?

[Willowhugger]

Being idiot is no justification.

It's an interesting perspective as there's no practical reason for recruiting Loghain. He's an untrustworthy unproven and anti-Warden individual who has already tried to kill you on multiple occassions as well as retreated during a critical time during the Blight. Alistair, by contrast, has proven himself time and time again until the one choice where you choose a demonstrably inferior choice over him when he presents an ultimatum.

Barring doing a favor for Anora, is there a reason to choose Loghain over Alistair?

Alistair asks you choose between them and if you choose Loghain, it's a pretty damn bizarre choice.

[Qis]

Everyone who hate Alistair is just because of his tantrum and leaving, but never want to understand why. Even if I being in his shoe I will do the same.The Blight or no, I will curse them all. They're busy with politic, busy with securing own "good" name, busy with own interests, and don't have honor, why would I stay? At that point, suddenly my friend/best friend/lover/group leader have change of heart after all being going through? Riordan know nothing of what i've done, he's an outsider, he's there is because of The Warden and Co save him accidentally...

 

So no, if i am Alistair, i will do the same...hell i think everyone will do the same, just "**** it, i am leaving"

 

Remember that if Loghain win, he will not spare anyone, game over, you dead and being branded as traitor to Ferelden. This what most Alistair haters forget about.

[Willowhugger]

I can understand sparing Loghain.

But if you spare DA:O's version of Darth Vader, I can't understand why you'd be angry if Princess Leia decides to leave.

[Qis]

Princess Leia hate Darth Vader even after the revelation, at least according to EU...because she believe the small change of heart in the end don't pay all the crimes he's done.

 

Loghain for me is unreasonable person, not live up by his own reputation. He take the war with Orlesian personally, no war general i know take war personally, especially in ancient wars, it is because of honor.

 

Loghain have no honor for me.

[nightscrawl]

It's an interesting perspective as there's no practical reason for recruiting Loghain. He's an untrustworthy unproven and anti-Warden individual who has already tried to kill you on multiple occassions as well as retreated during a critical time during the Blight. Alistair, by contrast, has proven himself time and time again until the one choice where you choose a demonstrably inferior choice over him when he presents an ultimatum.

Barring doing a favor for Anora, is there a reason to choose Loghain over Alistair?

Alistair asks you choose between them and if you choose Loghain, it's a pretty damn bizarre choice.

I do agree here. The one thing to keep in mind is that neither the player or either of the young Wardens know that a Grey Warden is required to kill the Archdemon. So, it follows that the higher number of GWs around, the greater are the chances of success. And it might just be that Alistair would not have left had he known this. Who can say?

 

When the decision is made in the Landsmeet, pretty much the only benefit of making Loghain a Warden would be to give him resistance to the taint and the ability to sense darkspawn. That's it. He has valuable military and command experience, but I don't consider that more valuable and worthy of the mild protection offered by Warden status than any of the followers who have been on the journey this entire time. He can dispense advise, or use a sword, without also becoming a GW, just like every single other party member.

 

And really, if we have the materials to do the Joining, and it's so very important to have a GW around to strike the killing blow, then make as many damn Wardens as possible. THAT should be the logical, practical choice. I don't blame Riordan though, since he specifically says that he assumed we had already been told the facts about killing the Archdemon.

 

Also, from what I recall, since Alistair gives you that ultimatum, the whole conversation basically plays out like you're doing it out of spite if you do decide to recruit Loghain. As you say, you have to make a choice, and you choose Loghain over Alistair.

[Willowhugger]

To be fair, I suppose recruiting people who tried to murder you at least has precedent with Zevran.

[Willowhugger]

Princess Leia hate Darth Vader even after the revelation, at least according to EU...because she believe the small change of heart in the end don't pay all the crimes he's done.
 
Loghain for me is unreasonable person, not live up by his own reputation. He take the war with Orlesian personally, no war general i know take war personally, especially in ancient wars, it is because of honor.
 
Loghain have no honor for me.

Loghain is what TV tropes.org calls "Wrong Genre Savvy" Loghain THINKS he's on Game of Thrones.

And he is.

The problem is he's not in the Lannister vs. Stark section. He's in the section about fighting the Others. Loghain pretty much crumbles to pieces when he realizes:

1. It's actually a Blight.
2. Anora doesn't support him.
3. The Wardens really are just trying to fight the Blight.
4. The Wardens don't even KNOW anyone from Orlais except for Riordan.

Ironically, I can't decide whether Loghain would be more surprised if the Wardens personally blame him for Calian's death (it was a tactical decision, not a regicide) or if he's more surprised that the Wardens really don't care one way about Orlais or not.

I don't think Loghain even realized both of them are from Fereldan.

[Monica21]

And?

People do the wrong thing all the damned time in this game. Almost certainly, the Warden has done some sketchy things or made mistakes in their path to saving Fereldan. People are going to throw out Alistair's year of devoted service because he won't stand by and fight the final length WITH A MONSTER? Someone who had murdered their brothers and sisters?

Yes. I do it every time I play. And Loghain's not the monster here. The Broodmother is a monster. The darkspawn are monsters. The Archdemon is a monster. Alistair knows exactly what he's running from. He's not running from a theoretical threat. You both know that the Blight is real. He knows the fate he's leaving you to. Remember the scene in the Deep Roads with Hespith? Well, that's the potential fate of a female Warden. ALL of your followers, who are not Wardens and some of whom who aren't even Ferelden so have no vested interest in saving Ferelden, stick around to stop the Blight. Because they know that stopping the Blight is more important than their own interests.
 

That person is, IMHO, a ****y Warden Commander.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

The problem with this perspective is it basically makes more of the choice than it is. Alistair has fought dragons, fought in the Deep Roads, recovered the ****ING HOLY GRAIL, fought against the Mage Uprising, and saved Redcliffe from the Zombie Apocalypse. He has done more for the people of Fereldan than anyone who is not named Calian or part of the party. SO THE HELL WHAT if he doesn't consider it his job to finish the final length of the journey.

Because stopping the Blight is literally what he signed on for. He didn't sign on for dragon fighting. He signed on to be a Warden. By leaving on the eve of battle he's abandoning his actual duty.
 

He's done more than anyone else in the country to guaranteeing its safety and he's a hero many times over.

And so have Zevran and Morrigan and Leliana and Sten and Dog, etc. He's no more of a hero than they are.
 

Not that anyone will remember it because Loghain gets to reap the rewards. The man who RUINED the country for fighting the Blight in the first place. If you can forgive Loghain, where's the forgiveness for Alistair?

Because Loghain isn't the one who leaves, that's why. And I'm not sure what you mean about Loghain ruining the country for fighting the Blight. The Blight was ruining the country, but Loghain was caught in a civil war started by Bann Teagan.
 
 

It's an interesting perspective as there's no practical reason for recruiting Loghain. He's an untrustworthy unproven and anti-Warden individual who has already tried to kill you on multiple occassions as well as retreated during a critical time during the Blight. Alistair, by contrast, has proven himself time and time again until the one choice where you choose a demonstrably inferior choice over him when he presents an ultimatum.

Sure there is. You've got a senior Warden telling you that there are compelling reasons to have another Warden. That's a practical reason. When you defeat him at the Landsmeet he says that he was wrong about you. He's willing to die or become a Warden, the latter of which is also a death sentence. Alistair has proven himself to be good at fighting stuff, but, as the Landsmeet shows, not good at actually understanding context. I can easily forgive Alistair if he says he's leaving after the Blight is over, but I can't forgive him for running away exactly when he's needed the most.
 

Barring doing a favor for Anora, is there a reason to choose Loghain over Alistair?

The first time I played through the game I was ready to spare Loghain, because he surrendered. Then Alistair yelled at me and I killed Loghain for Alistair, not because I thought it was the right thing to do. At the time, it's easy to think you can talk Alistair into staying. In my opinion, since Alistair won't stay, I just let him go. He's too rash, and that's not the kind of person I want to command. Loghain at the very least, knows that his heart lies with Ferelden. He will die for his country in any number of ways. Alistair won't. That's why I choose Loghain.
 

Alistair asks you choose between them and if you choose Loghain, it's a pretty damn bizarre choice.

To you.

[Fehria]

And really, if we have the materials to do the Joining, and it's so very important to have a GW around to strike the killing blow, then make as many damn Wardens as possible.

 

That's the thing, though. Riordan DOESN'T have the materials to do the Joining, as I've pointed out here. So it really shouldn't be an option or factor into your decision to kill or spare Loghain because Riordan is straight-up crazy and doesn't know what he's talking about, unless he had specific plans to make it a personal quest to go collect Joining juice ingredients and conduct the ritual later. I don't know, I've never spared Loghain in this manner, but it seemed like Riordan wanted it to be a fairly immediate thing, what with the Blight happening soon and all.

 

Anyway, putting the Joining thing aside, it becomes a simple question of spare or kill. And given the reasons above, why wouldn't Alistair advocate for killing Loghain? Wasn't that the plan all along? I mean, he hired an assassin to kill you (technically it was Howe's idea, but you and Alistair don't know that) and put a bounty on you and your friends. And those are just the crimes he committed that can't be reasoned away with politics. Everyone in the room, except Anora, has pretty much come to the consensus that his execution is just and they're okay with it. From Alistair's perspective, there is no reason to spare him, and he needs to die for his crimes.

[Willowhugger]

 

Because stopping the Blight is literally what he signed on for. He didn't sign on for dragon fighting. He signed on to be a Warden. By leaving on the eve of battle he's abandoning his actual duty.

 

Except all of that was in service to fighting the Blight.

 

And so have Zevran and Morrigan and Leliana and Sten and Dog, etc. He's no more of a hero than they are.

 

So, he's no more a hero than one of the biggest collections of heroes in Thedas history?

 

 

ALL of your followers, who are not Wardens and some of whom who aren't even Ferelden so have no vested interest in saving Ferelden, stick around to stop the Blight. Because they know that stopping the Blight is more important than their own interests.

 

Excepting of course that you do "Loyalty Missions" for everyone else: You kill Flemeth for Morrigan, kill Majorlaine for Leliana, kill the Crows hunting Zevran, find Sten's sword, track down Wynne's son, and other stuff which puts to lie the whole, "more important than other people's interests." Why? Because morale is important and so is your friendship to these people.

Alistair has two loyalty missions.

 

1. Visit his sister.

2. Murder Loghain and avenge Duncan.

 

 

I can easily forgive Alistair if he says he's leaving after the Blight is over, but I can't forgive him for running away exactly when he's needed the most.

 

So you'd rather have the guy who'd abandoned you at the Blight's beginning than the guy who actively fought it for a year by your side?

 

 

Loghain at the very least, knows that his heart lies with Ferelden. He will die for his country in any number of ways. Alistair won't. That's why I choose Loghain.

 

That's an impression which is very interesting given the only person who has abandoned the Wardens and stopped fighting the Blight at this point is...Loghain.

[Monica21]

That's the thing, though. Riordan DOESN'T have the materials to do the Joining, as I've pointed out here.

 
Except Loghain does become a Warden, so for plot purposes you have to assume that he figured it out. 

Except all of that was in service to fighting the Blight.

So?
 

So, he's no more a hero than one of the biggest collections of heroes in Thedas history?

There's no reason why he should be considered that, no. 
 

Excepting of course that you do "Loyalty Missions" for everyone else: You kill Flemeth for Morrigan, kill Majorlaine for Leliana, kill the Crows hunting Zevran, find Sten's sword, track down Wynne's son, and other stuff which puts to lie the whole, "more important than other people's interests." Why? Because morale is important and so is your friendship to these people.

You don't have to do any of those things and they will still stay with you. You can also do the missions It has no effect on whether they stay or go.

Alistair has two loyalty missions.
 
1. Visit his sister.
2. Murder Loghain and avenge Duncan.

Well, now let's be honest here. Killing Loghain is never presented as a loyalty mission. Alistair talks about revenge, but you never have a chance to reply in any way that says you would consider an alternate solution. 
 

So you'd rather have the guy who'd abandoned you at the Blight's beginning than the guy who actively fought it for a year by your side?

You're giving me a choice between the "guy who fought it for a year" and then abandoned it when he was needed the most, and the guy who will fight with you when he's needed the most? Of course I'll pick Loghain.
 
 

That's an impression which is very interesting given the only person who has abandoned the Wardens and stopped fighting the Blight at this point is...Loghain.

Loghain didn't know it was a Blight. Loghain retreated from Ostagar, and that's all. Again, Alistair knows exactly what he's leaving you to fight. Loghain doesn't.

[Qis]

Loghain is what TV tropes.org calls "Wrong Genre Savvy" Loghain THINKS he's on Game of Thrones.

And he is.

The problem is he's not in the Lannister vs. Stark section. He's in the section about fighting the Others. Loghain pretty much crumbles to pieces when he realizes:

1. It's actually a Blight.
2. Anora doesn't support him.
3. The Wardens really are just trying to fight the Blight.
4. The Wardens don't even KNOW anyone from Orlais except for Riordan.

Ironically, I can't decide whether Loghain would be more surprised if the Wardens personally blame him for Calian's death (it was a tactical decision, not a regicide) or if he's more surprised that the Wardens really don't care one way about Orlais or not.

I don't think Loghain even realized both of them are from Fereldan.

 

I only take my stance about Loghain through my Warden eyes (and Alistair eyes for that matter), even though the game showing infos only us the player know, but mostly those infos are repeated in dialogues.

 

Both Alistair and The Warden know Loghain left the king and all Grey Warden to die, the info come from Morrigan and Flemeth. And then as soon as you are arrived at Lothering, everyone being talking about Grey Warden betray and kill the king. So if i am The Warden i will say "WTF?!"

 

Then in the inn, a group of soldiers, Loghain men, want to kill The Warden...remember that they didn't look for Alistair, but The Warden, watch their dialogues

 

Then a group of assassins ambushing, after fighting them and leave only one to talk, he say he was hired by Loghain...and again look at the dialogues, Loghain is specifically want to kill The Warden, not Alistair

 

What i mean is, Loghain don't see Alistair is a threat at all, he focus on The Warden, why? Because The Warden is the real threat for him, The Warden who was in the meeting where he agree with the original plan, but decide to leave the battle field after the beacon is lit. That's the only reason why he want to kill The Warden. The rest of things are just his propaganda regarding Orlais, not specifically regarding The Warden.

 

So in short, he make you an enemy, no matter you're Ferelden or not, just because you know the truth.

[Monica21]

So in short, he make you an enemy, no matter you're Ferelden or not, just because you know the truth.

Eh, no. He wants to kill both of you. The Wardens, not just you, because Alistair is a Warden too. And he wants to kill you because he thinks you're spies for Orlais. See: The Calling. He has cause to distrust the Wardens.

[nightscrawl]

That's the thing, though. Riordan DOESN'T have the materials to do the Joining, as I've pointed out here. So it really shouldn't be an option or factor into your decision to kill or spare Loghain because Riordan is straight-up crazy and doesn't know what he's talking about, unless he had specific plans to make it a personal quest to go collect Joining juice ingredients and conduct the ritual later. I don't know, I've never spared Loghain in this manner, but it seemed like Riordan wanted it to be a fairly immediate thing, what with the Blight happening soon and all.

I was speaking in generalities, not that it influenced my decision, which I also explained in that post with the remark about neither young Warden knowing that a GW is required to kill the Archdemon.

I think it's a plot failing.
 
 

Except Loghain does become a Warden, so for plot purposes you have to assume that he figured it out.

I agree here. Whether someone thinks an NPC shouldn't (or should) be able to do something is irrelevant if the game clearly shows that they can. Loghain does become a Warden if you take that choice, so Riordan managed it somehow.

 

I agree with all of the various reasons pointed out in that post, but they are irrelevant based on what happens in the game. Say it's poor writing, or hand waving, or whatever you like, but it does happen.

 

 

In fact, while I like the guy, a lot of the stuff surrounding Riordan is just rather silly.

[Fehria]

Looking back, I see that my point is rather irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I guess I'm just surprised that more people haven't seemed to notice it. Sorry for swooping in and going plot ninja on everyone

 

 

My Riordan rants aside, the original question was about Alistair and his intentions. Is he right to walk away from everything and throw a fit because he doesn't get what he wants? Certainly not, but even Alistair admits that he doesn't always know what he's doing, which is why he agrees to follow you instead of lead the group himself. Is it ultimately right to kill Loghain regardless... I don't know. It depends on your Warden and how they've developed throughout their journey.

 

In any case, Alistair's reaction is not without reason, and from his perspective it's a good enough reason to justify his actions at the moment. We can argue for days about whether or not we agree with him, and hell, we can even change our minds about whether we want to agree with him (gotta love that replayability).

[Qis]

Eh, no. He wants to kill both of you. The Wardens, not just you, because Alistair is a Warden too. And he wants to kill you because he thinks you're spies for Orlais. See: The Calling. He has cause to distrust the Wardens.

 

No, he want to kill only The Warden, not Alistair.

 

Loghain men at the inn specifically searching for "someone look like his/her description", not mentioning Alistair at all but The Warden.

 

Zevran specifically talking about kiliing The Warden, not Alistair and remember that he might attack with no Alistair around, he means to kill The Warden, not Alistair. All his dialogues are about killing The Warden, not Alistair.