505 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeffonl1]

I imagine the Warden is just higher on Loghain's hit list. Loghain has important reasons to want Alistair dead as well.

[Monica21]

In any case, Alistair's reaction is not without reason, and from his perspective it's a good enough reason to justify his actions at the moment. We can argue for days about whether or not we agree with him, and hell, we can even change our minds about whether we want to agree with him (gotta love that replayability).

I am more than willing to agree that Alistair's reaction fits his characterization.

[Lazarillo]

Alistair was completely justified in leaving.

He was also wrong.

 

Being one does not preclude the other.  Recruiting Loghain is the best choice as a Warden.  But for all his talk about it, Alistair didn't really want to be a Warden, he wanted to be a hero.

[Qis]

There is a reason for the plot where The Warden is in the meeting about planning the strategy, The Warden is an eye witness of what happen in the meeting.

 

But sadly the writing there is not so great to establish that, not enough to carry weight to establish Loghain is a bad guy other than his facial expression in the end of the cut scene.

 

Regardless, The Warden is the only surviving eye witness who know the plan, that's why Loghain want to kill him/her. Alistair is somewhere else during that time.

 

So, as the one who know what happen, still want to recruit Loghain and betray Alistair?

[Willowhugger]

There is a reason for the plot where The Warden is in the meeting about planning the strategy, The Warden is an eye witness of what happen in the meeting. But sadly the writing there is not so great to establish that, not enough to carry weight to establish Loghain is a bad guy other than his facial expression in the end of the cut scene. Regardless, The Warden is the only surviving eye witness who know the plan, that's why Loghain want to kill him/her. Alistair is somewhere else during that time.

 

So, as the one who know what happen, still want to recruit Loghain and betray Alistair?

I don't think any of that is the case.

Loghain says he retreated because by the time the beacon was lit, the Darkspawn had delayed them to the point their forces were too large to engage and in a bad position to do so. He made a strategic decision not to try and rescue Calian because he didn't really respect his king or think the Wardens should be rescued versus however many hundreds of soldiers would die in the process.

 

He blamed the Wardesn for the disaster because he needed a scapegoat. He also assumed they were all dead and traitors anyway.

Then they united all of Fereldan behind them and got powerful military allies.

 

Which is completely insane from his perspective.

[Illegitimus]

There is a reason for the plot where The Warden is in the meeting about planning the strategy, The Warden is an eye witness of what happen in the meeting.

 

But sadly the writing there is not so great to establish that, not enough to carry weight to establish Loghain is a bad guy other than his facial expression in the end of the cut scene.

 

Regardless, The Warden is the only surviving eye witness who know the plan, that's why Loghain want to kill him/her. Alistair is somewhere else during that time.

 

So, as the one who know what happen, still want to recruit Loghain and betray Alistair?

 

Sure.  Why not?  ...well it's not like your analysis is accurate.  Loghain's initial order is to _arrest_ any stray wardens.  Probably so they can be turned over to Howe and he can torture all the details of the plot to turn Ferelden over Orlais.  Howe proposes and Loghain accepts a plan to assassinate the Warden only because they've received word...somehow...that the Warden is building an army that is presumably going to come after them.  But the Warden isn't the only person who knows the plan.  I mean Cauthrien knew the plan.  Probably a lot of ranking officers knew the plan.  

 

But actually if I'm making Alistair the king, yes I want to "betray" him.  I want him somewhere other than the front lines against an archdemon.  If he's going to go up against it, it had better because Riordan's dead, Loghain's dead, and I'm dead because I'll be damned if I'm leaving Anora to rule without someone with some sense of right and wrong to interfere.  I like Anora.  I do.  I think Alistair will need her if he is to be king.  But I don't trust her on her own.  Pragmatism is necessary for a ruler, but Anora doesn't show any signs of being anything more than pragmatic.  

[TEWR]

because he's can be a short-sighted idiot that's why.

 

(I say this as someone who likes Alistair but just finds his bloodlust and need for vengeance to be really foolish)

[Elhanan]

because he's can be a short-sighted idiot that's why.
 
(I say this as someone who likes Alistair but just finds his bloodlust and need for vengeance to be really foolish)

As opposed to someone that attempts to eliminate the remaining Wardens needed in the first place....

[Willowhugger]

The Warden trying to show Loghain mercy is very understandable since they do the same a lot if they're playing the Lawful Good run.

However, that mercy bites them in the ass with Alistair.

Seems a fairly straightforward thing.

[Seraphim24]

Alistair is passionately committed to killing Loghain because he sees him as the the reason Duncan died at Ostagar.

 

Alistair never really seemed to care about the Grey Wardens, the Templars, honestly, he seemed kind of just like a wandering spirit, he ended up with Duncan not so much because of his attachment to causes but simply because what the world regarded as his churlish antics and indifference was actually tolerated, and viewed for what it really is, a sense of whimsy and pleasure. Alistair, as anyone knows, rarely jokes to wound, it's more that his wish that the world was a kinder place in some ways.

 

But he was no superhero, he never wanted to charge into battle carrying that standard forth so that everyone would rally to him, in fact, he spends a great deal of time in a way "apologizing" for the Chantry, etc, and their practices, trying to get people to see the good and not the bad all the time.

 

However, it's noteworthy that the only time Alistair bristles in initial conversation is when you suggest something was less than pure and noble about Duncan, and he mentions numerous times it's like his "father figure."

 

Ultimately, Loghain is a figure sort of competing with that, he views the safety of Fereldan as the highest priority and will do a tremendous amount to protect it, although in the process may commit great evils or cause great destruction. He is engaged in the process of weighing and balancing the scales, but from Alistair's narrow perspective, he therefore doesn't dwell on or care about individuals in the light of a bigger picture, and is reckless and amoral, self-destructive.

 

As to why Alistair is so passionately committed to "killing" Loghain... well... that's hard to say... I don't think he necessarily is for starters, he's passionately committed to the notion that there must have been a better way, a way for Duncan not to die, a better plan somewhere, and that it was Loghain's failings that killed Duncan.

 

He doesn't want to accept the process of war or conflict simply must involve the deaths of few for many or vice versa, that there are always trade offs of this kind, that justice must be harsh and cruel to one party while benefiting others. Even though he himself is not committed to carrying the standard, as it were, he wants it to be known that he finds that repulsive and unsatisfactory.

[Willowhugger]

Alistair is passionately committed to killing Loghain because he sees him as the the reason Duncan died at Ostagar.

 

Alistair never really seemed to care about the Grey Wardens, the Templars, honestly, he seemed kind of just like a wandering spirit, he ended up with Duncan not so much because of his attachment to causes but simply because what the world regarded as his churlish antics and indifference was actually tolerated, and viewed for what it really is, a sense of whimsy and pleasure. Alistair, as anyone knows, rarely jokes to wound, it's more that his wish that the world was a kinder place in some ways.

 

But he was no superhero, he never wanted to charge into battle carrying that standard forth so that everyone would rally to him, in fact, he spends a great deal of time in a way "apologizing" for the Chantry, etc, and their practices, trying to get people to see the good and not the bad all the time.

 

However, it's noteworthy that the only time Alistair bristles in initial conversation is when you suggest something was less than pure and noble about Duncan, and he mentions numerous times it's like his "father figure."

 

Ultimately, Loghain is a figure sort of competing with that, he views the safety of Fereldan as the highest priority and will do a tremendous amount to protect it, although in the process may commit great evils or cause great destruction. He is engaged in the process of weighing and balancing the scales, but from Alistair's narrow perspective, he therefore doesn't dwell on or care about individuals in the light of a bigger picture, and is reckless and amoral, self-destructive.

 

As to why Alistair is so passionately committed to "killing" Loghain... well... that's hard to say... I don't think he necessarily is for starters, he's passionately committed to the notion that there must have been a better way, a way for Duncan not to die, a better plan somewhere, and that it was Loghain's failings that killed Duncan.

 

He doesn't want to accept the process of war or conflict simply must involve the deaths of few for many or vice versa, that there are always trade offs of this kind, that justice must be harsh and cruel to one party while benefiting others. Even though he himself is not committed to carrying the standard, as it were, he wants it to be known that he finds that repulsive and unsatisfactory.

 

One of the cuter things the game did, I think is they make it clear Alistair is an immature teenager in his twenties. He’s a virgin, his gifts include a lot of what would be called “action figures” today, he has a very black and white view of the world, and he’s a jovial jokester. Alistair is a guy who doesn’t want to grow up and is very happy to be a follower rather than a leader because he doesn’t want the responsibility of such.

 

In this viewpoint, it’s important to remember Alistair doesn’t have a cynical adult’s view of the world. The Grey Wardens aren’t a bunch of ruthless morally ambiguous bastards doing a dirty job. They’re a bunch of heroes Maker-dammit and Duncan is the most heroiest of them all. The fact Duncan was a murderer saved from the noose for revenge is probably not a story which he shared with Alistair.

 

Loghain’s worldview is the exact opposite of Alistair’s and it’s interesting to note it probably is a choice which a lot of fans of the game miss. Alistair believes in the Paragon Shepard view of the world even if he doesn’t have the stomach to do it himself. Do the right thing, be the good guy, kill the villain, and go home. Loghain, however, is the Renegade Shepard who takes all the most extreme and ruthless paths possible.

 

Alistair leaves because he sees you sparing Loghain not as an act of mercy but as an act of evil. Essentially, pardoning a monster because Alistair DOES NOT ACCEPT any of Loghain’s rationales.

 

He's the villain and he doesn't get to walk away from his crimes.

 

Hell, not only did Loghain kill Duncan but he killed Alistair's BROTHER.

[Seraphim24]

One of the cuter things the game did, I think is they make it clear Alistair is an immature teenager in his twenties. He’s a virgin, his gifts include a lot of what would be called “action figures” today, he has a very black and white view of the world, and he’s a jovial jokester. Alistair is a guy who doesn’t want to grow up and is very happy to be a follower rather than a leader because he doesn’t want the responsibility of such.

 

In this viewpoint, it’s important to remember Alistair doesn’t have a cynical adult’s view of the world. The Grey Wardens aren’t a bunch of ruthless morally ambiguous bastards doing a dirty job. They’re a bunch of heroes Maker-dammit and Duncan is the most heroiest of them all. The fact Duncan was a murderer saved from the noose for revenge is probably not a story which he shared with Alistair.

 

Loghain’s worldview is the exact opposite of Alistair’s and it’s interesting to note it probably is a choice which a lot of fans of the game miss. Alistair believes in the Paragon Shepard view of the world even if he doesn’t have the stomach to do it himself. Do the right thing, be the good guy, kill the villain, and go home. Loghain, however, is the Renegade Shepard who takes all the most extreme and ruthless paths possible.

 

Alistair leaves because he sees you sparing Loghain not as an act of mercy but as an act of evil. Essentially, pardoning a monster because Alistair DOES NOT ACCEPT any of Loghain’s rationales.

 

He's the villain and he doesn't get to walk away from his crimes.

 

Hell, not only did Loghain kill Duncan but he killed Alistair's BROTHER.

 

Ah well see yes this is kind of along the lines of what I've been saying.. yes Alistair is more of the follower, yes he doesn't want to lead, yes and yes... but rather than Loghain is Renegade and Alistair as Paragon competing so much that Alistair refuses to believe Loghain is anything but Renegade.

 

He fails to see that there is a difference between an act which may possibly claim lives to save lives or prevent destruction (as Loghain says, "life is the currency of war" and an indifference to life itself. He essentially equates Loghain with something like the Brood Mother (or certain Renegade Shepard possibilities).

 

My sense is that Alistair would have been more prone to see that if not for the close relationship he had with Duncan, which was pretty much the most important relationship in his life, and which all got scrambled at Ostagar. Consider that Alistair was a bastard and never knew his real father and all that sort of story.

 

There is also the continual kind of strain placed on Alistair as a central person who must make all the important decisions when that was never his personality or desire in the first place.

[Artona]

 

Alistair asks you choose between them and if you choose Loghain, it's a pretty damn bizarre choice.

 

I fail to see how that choice (whatever the outcome is) is relevant when talking about tantrum that forced us to choose in the first place. I mean, if Alistair is willing to leave Ferelden in the middle of Blight because of "bizarre" choice... well, it tells something bad about him, doesn't it? 

[Qis]

I fail to see how that choice (whatever the outcome is) is relevant when talking about tantrum that forced us to choose in the first place. I mean, if Alistair is willing to leave Ferelden in the middle of Blight because of "bizarre" choice... well, it tells something bad about him, doesn't it? 

 

Or it is something bad about The Warden who suddenly decide to betray him at the very last minute for no reason.

[Qis]

I really don't get it...The Warden doing all the work to prove Loghain IS A BAD GUY in the Landsmeet, probably win the Landsmeet but Loghain refused to stand down in which lead to the duel, and he lost the duel, but suddenly The Warden want to spare him instead of execute him for his crimes?

 

It is like you put all your effort to convince everyone that Satan is bad and evil, everyone does believe you, then Satan ask for duel and Satan lost, Satan yield to you, then suddenly someone said "just spare him, maybe we can make use of him", then you agree...what would Jesus who stand next to you would say?

 

Satan Loghain : Alright you win, i yield

St Warden : Okay

Jesus Alistair : Whaaat?! Execute him already!

St Riordan : No, we can use him, make him become a saint

Jesus Alistair : Are you joking, he deceived everyone, conspiring to kill our brothers, corrupting everyone and you want to make him a saint?

St Warden : Why not? St Riordan have a point, he's good, he could help us defeating the Anti-Christ Demon

Jesus Alistair : I don't return to earth to see Satan become a saint, WTF you guys, i am leaving!

Satan Loghain Daughter : See what i told you guys, Jesus Alistair only want a revenge, he's clearly out of his mind, is this the King you're all waiting for? Execute him

[nightscrawl]

I think the Thedosian version would be, "What would Andraste do?"

[Qis]

I think the Thedosian version would be, "What would Andraste do?"

 

Andraste already leaving earth with The Maker...heck,The Maker already leave in the first place....

[Artona]

 

Or it is something bad about The Warden who suddenly decide to betray him at the very last minute for no reason.

 

I'd say that having four Wardens instead of three is pretty good reason. Being able to salvage great warrior instead of losing thar resource is fine as well, not to mention pleasing queen of Ferelden. So yeah, I'd still rather be that guy who betrayed his friend and killed Archdemon, than the one who got mad after betrayal and just stopped caring about Blight. If Alistair thinks his feeling are so important, that he is willing to leave Ferelden, then well. Well...

 

 

 

 

It is like you put all your effort to convince everyone that Satan is bad and evil, everyone does believe you, then Satan ask for duel and Satan lost, Satan yield to you, then suddenly someone said "just spare him, maybe we can make use of him", then you agree...what would Jesus who stand next to you would say?

 

That analogy is bizarre and false that I don't even know where to begin. First of all, if I was convincing everyone about Satan's evilness because of Leviathan ante portas - then yeah, I'd definitely salvage the guy, Leviathan doesn't going to commit suicide, after all. And secondly - I dunno, I always thought that Christ would rather forgive than execute someone. I mean, after all he forgave those who crucified him, right? 

[Qis]

That analogy is bizarre and false that I don't even know where to begin. First of all, if I was convincing everyone about Satan's evilness because of Leviathan ante portas - then yeah, I'd definitely salvage the guy, Leviathan doesn't going to commit suicide, after all. And secondly - I dunno, I always thought that Christ would rather forgive than execute someone. I mean, after all he forgave those who crucified him, right? 

 

Christ return to give judgment, not to forgive

 

To speak the truth, i always compare Alistair with Jesus, he's Jesus-like, atleast for me. He have Jesus qualities. Duncan is like St John the Baptist. And the Warden is a Saint...Grey Wardens are brotherhood of Saints. The whole event is end time event of fighting the Anti-Christ and the Gog-Magog army.

 

That's the way i see it anyhow...

[Artona]

 

 

To speak the truth, i always compare Alistair with Jesus, he's Jesus-like, atleast for me. He have Jesus qualities. Duncan is like St John the Baptist. And the Warden is a Saint...Grey Wardens are brotherhood of Saints. The whole event is end time event of fighting the Anti-Christ and the Gog-Magog army.

Interesting point of view; I've never thought about it like that. 

But Landsmeet and entire conflict with Loghain isn't based on ethical reasons; we don't need to overthrow him, because he is evil, but because he is an obstacle. Our companions are witch, assassin, murderer, alcoholic murderer and abomination, during DAO we can defile holy relic, kill elf tribe or werewolves tribe, use blood magic, make deal with demon, kill Paragon, wipe out Circle of Magi, put on Orzammar throne tyrant or reactionist. Who are to judge him? If he was on our side, trading slaves, using assassins and ruling Denerim with iron fist wouldn't be an issue. 

[The Baconer]

Who are to judge him? If he was on our side, trading slaves, using assassins and ruling Denerim with iron fist wouldn't be an issue. 

 

How tiresome. 

[Qis]

Interesting point of view; I've never thought about it like that. 

But Landsmeet and entire conflict with Loghain isn't based on ethical reasons; we don't need to overthrow him, because he is evil, but because he is an obstacle. Our companions are witch, assassin, murderer, alcoholic murderer and abomination, during DAO we can defile holy relic, kill elf tribe or werewolves tribe, use blood magic, make deal with demon, kill Paragon, wipe out Circle of Magi, put on Orzammar throne tyrant or reactionist. Who are to judge him? If he was on our side, trading slaves, using assassins and ruling Denerim with iron fist wouldn't be an issue. 

 

All evil stuff you do is your choice, if you do, you are no better than Loghain then...

[Monica21]

All evil stuff you do is your choice, if you do, you are no better than Loghain then...

You know that Loghain's not real, right?

[Qis]

You know that Loghain's not real, right?

 

I am not sure.....

[Artona]

 

All evil stuff you do is your choice, if you do, you are no better than Loghain then...

 

So every Warden is evil, because they are guilty of helping achieve power in Orzammar the tyrant, whose first decision is to execute his political rival (who yield), or extreme reactionist, who supports unfair and oppresive cast system.