So every Warden is evil, because they are guilty of helping achieve power in Orzammar the tyrant, whose first decision is to execute his political rival (who yield), or extreme reactionist, who supports unfair and oppresive cast system.
The warden only help Orzamar to have a leader again, the leader being oppressive or tyrant is not The Warden business, helping Orzamar to have a leader is to move the Dwarves against The Blight
It is not evil or good, it just neutral
The warden only help Orzamar to have a leader again, the leader being oppressive or tyrant is not The Warden business, helping Orzamar to have a leader is to move the Dwarves against The Blight
It is not evil or good, it just neutral
The warden only help Orzamar to have a leader again, the leader being oppressive or tyrant is not The Warden business, helping Orzamar to have a leader is to move the Dwarves against The Blight
Excellent point, but why can't we apply the same thinking to Loghain? It's not our bussiness if he's slave trader, or knight in the shining white armor, we simply need to end civil war and unite Ferelden. Landsmeet allow us to do that without killing Mr Stupid-Hair-And-Big-Nose... so wha'ts evil in that?
But we are digressing, aren't we 
? Anyhow, I don't believe Alistair reaction is justified - and I think we have pretty good reasons to spare Loghain. Of course, someone can say that risk is too big and safer solution is to end his life, and that's totally fine, there isn't probably one correct answer. As for Alistair, I think it would acceptable if he said something like "you betrayed me and I don't want anything to do with you... so after we kill Archdemon I'm leaving".
Excellent point, but why can't we apply the same thinking to Loghain? It's not our bussiness if he's slave trader, or knight in the shining white armor, we simply need to end civil war and unite Ferelden. Landsmeet allow us to do that without killing Mr Stupid-Hair-And-Big-Nose... so wha'ts evil in that?
But we are digressing, aren't we
Not the same at all, Loghain don't care about The Blight, he only focus on how to secure his power after the power vacuum caused by him. He's selfish. He's the cause of civil war remember?
The Warden job in The Landsmeet is to unite Ferelden in which being divided by Loghain, execute Loghain for what he's done. Why want to spare him? No reason to spare him
That sounds remarkably like your job in the Landsmeet. Whatever Loghain does actually isn't your business as Warden, up to the point where he actually does interfere with your business as the Warden. And that's the actual reason you go to the Landsmeet, to stop the interference, in whatever form that takes. It's not to set out to prove how bad of a guy Loghain is.
And yes, I was being snide when I asked you if Loghain was real, but in large part it's because you're applying your own personal moral code to a character. I don't care what kind of person Loghain is, and I can ascribe incredibly positive qualities to him, like loyalty, patriotism, and a willingness to change his mind when presented with new information. What I need to do at the time is get the support of the nobles and I can't do that unless Loghain is either by my side or dead. I prefer him alive.
Your job at the Landsmeet is no different than your job in Orzammar. You need to further your own cause.
You already won against Loghain, you already prove he's wrong and expose all his crime, but suddenly you turn back from what you're doing?
It is like you already prove Hitler crimes, defeating Hitler in a duel, but then you make him one of you
The reason Alistair leaving is because you turn back from your own cause in the Landsmeet
The only REASON to spare Loghain is to save his own name...that's all. It is all about his name, only that what people care of...he's a war hero, a great general, king Maric right hand...
Do you guys seriously believe Riordan genuinely suggesting to recruit Loghain is because of to add one more Grey Warden? He could recruit anyone other than Loghain, ANYONE. No, there's politic, Riordan is Orlesian Grey Warden, what more humiliating than making Loghain become Grey Warden, the one he accused of being Orlesian spy?
Alistair don't get that, for Alistair justice must be done, Loghain must be executed after all the efforts for that.
If Riordan really want another Grey Warden he can recruit anyone in the Landsmeet or outside, anyone...Kardol for example, he have more experience fighting Darspawn than Loghain in the Deep Road.
So no, Alistair see there's a BS politic going on, want to save Loghain's name after what he done, and a fishy conspiracy by Riordan who want to make Loghain under Grey Warden order, that's why he leave, he cannot be in a group of hypocrtes
The only REASON to spare Loghain is to save his own name...that's all. It is all about his name, only that what people care of...he's a war hero, a great general, king Maric right hand...
Do you guys seriously believe Riordan genuinely suggesting to recruit Loghain is because of to add one more Grey Warden? He could recruit anyone other than Loghain, ANYONE. No, there's politic, Riordan is Orlesian Grey Warden, what more humiliating than making Loghain become Grey Warden, the one he accused of being Orlesian spy?
Alistair don't get that, for Alistair justice must be done, Loghain must be executed after all the efforts for that.
If Riordan really want another Grey Warden he can recruit anyone in the Landsmeet or outside, anyone...Kardol for example, he have more experience fighting Darspawn than Loghain in the Deep Road.
Not if Loghain is the only one who knows where the last of the Ferelden archdemon's blood is. Also, I think Riordan has qualms about making any person who doesn't deserve and would welcome utter annihilation into a warden on the brink of the final battle with the arch demon.
Not the same at all, Loghain don't care about The Blight, he only focus on how to secure his power after the power vacuum caused by him. He's selfish. He's the cause of civil war remember?
I must've imagined some dude standing over the lords and ladies with the Queen at the Landsmeet telling them, immediately after Ostagar, that the army needed to be rebuilt and the Darkspawn dealt with swiftly and sensibly, without hesitation.
I also must've imagined someone with red hair and a relation to the dead queen taking the worst possible time, when a Blight is on their doorstep and the political scene is fragile, to AGGRAVATE things by provoking Loghain (whom I will be the first to admit did not help matters himself) and challenging his Regency -- which, let's be honest, Anora was okay with. From a political standpoint she had to be at that time to keep Ferelden unified. But the point is, Teagan started the political fallout, having been representing Arl Eamon -- a well respected figure in the Landsmeet -- and he broke the fragile peace that was there post-Ostagar.
Loghain's actions would've been seen as dubious no matter what, but it wasn't until Teagan started speaking that things got out of hand.
Yeah, as a Warden, what Loghain did is infinitely more forgivable than Alistair reaction if you do spare him. Alistair doesn't just embarrass you in front of Fereldan's high nobility, but he loudly proclaims his intention to desert the Wardens during a Blight. I was surprised Riordan didn't try to gut him Jory-style on the spot. Sorry Al, but this is the duty that cannot be forsworn: you don't deserve to be executed for being a potential usurper, but for trying to pull that ****? Yeah.
Not the same at all, Loghain don't care about The Blight, he only focus on how to secure his power after the power vacuum caused by him. He's selfish. He's the cause of civil war remember?
The Warden job in The Landsmeet is to unite Ferelden in which being divided by Loghain, execute Loghain for what he's done. Why want to spare him? No reason to spare him
You already won against Loghain, you already prove he's wrong and expose all his crime, but suddenly you turn back from what you're doing?
It is like you already prove Hitler crimes, defeating Hitler in a duel, but then you make him one of you
The reason Alistair leaving is because you turn back from your own cause in the Landsmeet
Not the same at all, Loghain don't care about The Blight, he only focus on how to secure his power after the power vacuum caused by him. He's selfish. He's the cause of civil war remember?
The Warden job in The Landsmeet is to unite Ferelden in which being divided by Loghain, execute Loghain for what he's done. Why want to spare him? No reason to spare him
You already won against Loghain, you already prove he's wrong and expose all his crime, but suddenly you turn back from what you're doing?
It is like you already prove Hitler crimes, defeating Hitler in a duel, but then you make him one of you
The reason Alistair leaving is because you turn back from your own cause in the Landsmeet
No, the reason Alistair leaves is because I turned away from his cause, big difference. My cause is to defeat the Archdemon. Alistair is more concerned about what happens to Loghain. Alistair cares less about the Wardens and the Blight, and you, for that matter, than he does about killing Loghain. Which says just about everything I need to know about Alistair. If I may, here's the Warden Oath, the one both you and Alistair took: "Join us brothers and sisters. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry out the duty that cannot be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day, we shall join you."
It's ironic when all is said and done it was Alistair who was probably the most irrational and hateful person, not Loghain (who I am not in any way suddenly excusing or ignoring Loghain for his own substantial... things)
It also helps you understand Alistair's character better too, and why he despised the possibility of being in great power, and ran from it at every opportunity in many ways.
It seems like Morrigan's character is maybe David Gaider's best one in many ways... because it was like it didn't show the strain and consequence of kind of leading with a character like Loghain, but shes not nearly as blithely stereotypical as Alistair.
Wow, i just don't understand why anyone could defend an obvious evil person who stab their back in every turn instead of a friend who would die beside them...i lost faith in humanity...i don't want to live on earth anymore.
Loghain killed Alistair's family. Of course he wants him dead. If someone murdered your family, would you work by their side as a comrade? 
Wow, i just don't understand why anyone could defend an obvious evil person who stab their back in every turn instead of a friend who would die beside them...i lost faith in humanity...i don't want to live on earth anymore.
Always a voice of reason Elhanan....
Thanks!
FYI - Prepare thyself for a plethora of replies to the contrary.
Oh, er, sorry! I actually just hid that post to phrase myself better (but not to lose some fundamental sentiment!)... I think you are reasonable but in this context I realized I was thinking like "groundedness" perhaps? Reason is a strange and delicate word I suppose...
Basically, even when you don't understand something, you also seem to demonstrate admirable restraint and decorum in dealing with that fact, here and other places, so I wanted to compliment you on that =-)
Well, sorry! I actually just hid that post to phrase myself better (but not to lose some fundamental sentiment!)... I think you are reasonable but in this context I was thinking like "groundedness" perhaps? Reason is a strange and delicate word I suppose...
Basically, even when you don't understand something, you also seem to demonstrate admirable restraint and decorum in dealing with that fact, so I wanted to compliment you on that =-)
Am now in an internal struggle with humility, pride, and impishness as to making this latter part my new sig! It would annoy some others SO much!!
Haha! Ah..... I just did notice that...
Wow, i just don't understand why anyone could defend an obvious evil person who stab their back in every turn instead of a friend who would die beside them...i lost faith in humanity...i don't want to live on earth anymore.
Loghain doesn't stab you in the back, he stabs you in the front. lol!
Also, Alistair was not my Warden's friend. He was just another Warden trying to stop the Blight in my game and complained the whole way through over every decision made. Loghain is a leader, a skilled warrior, and a hero who can boost the morale of his people. He's a very good asset to the Wardens and I don't blame anyone for wanting him recruited instead of killed. Killing him is just a waste.
Also, add me in with the 'Gaider's argument is ridiculous' lot. Everything I said above are good enough reasons to want Loghain recruited in addition to following the advice of a senior Warden, and if we couldn't kill the Archdemon we would've had a full blown Blight on our hands that could last for years. I can see Grey Warden Loghain out there commanding his own units but I most certainly can't see that of Grey Warden Alistair. At least not at that point in time.
Alistair sat back and allowed The Warden to lead the way, then had to be manipulated (hardened), and practically dragged to the throne before he would take it. By the time the Landsmeet rolled around, I was glad the game was providing me with another alternative. Alistair only further proves how unfit he is through his declaration of abandoning the Wardens and his country to certain death while planning to use the throne to enact his revenge, most likely causing another civil war on top of a post blighted country. My Cousland saw him as a disgrace and not any sort of King he would willingly bow to. My guy married Anora, spared Loghain, and had Alistair executed. And I don't see how any of that was selfish. Fereldan was on the brink of collapse and it's rather silly to ignore that just to cater to some guy throwing a temper tantrum.
Loghain
i. agree with the strategy discussed on a war meeting you attend
ii. decide to retreat after you lit the beacon, leaving the king and Grey Warden dead
iii. accuse Grey Warden killing the king
iv. accuse Grey Warden as traitor to Ferelden and put bounty on surviving Grey Warden, you
v. hire assassins to kill you specifically
vi. cause civil war by his action on betraying the king
vii. poisoning Arl Eamon and lead to chain of events
viii. made a pact with Uldred also lead to chain of events
ix. selling slaves to Tevinter to support his campaign
x. If you are a Cousland, Loghain work with Howe who kill your entire family
Alistair
i. done nothing that make anyone hate him so much
So why choose Loghain over Alistair?
It's ironic when all is said and done it was Alistair who was probably the most irrational and hateful person, not Loghain (who I am not in any way suddenly excusing or ignoring Loghain for his own substantial... things)
It also helps you understand Alistair's character better too, and why he despised the possibility of being in great power, and ran from it at every opportunity in many ways.
It seems like Morrigan's character is maybe David Gaider's best one in many ways... because it was like it didn't show the strain and consequence of kind of leading with a character like Loghain, but shes not nearly as blithely stereotypical as Alistair.
I will concede to Alistair that his actions were not premeditated and that he quitted for a deep anger for the decision of the Warden,still he was wrong
Loghain killed Alistair's family. Of course he wants him dead. If someone murdered your family, would you work by their side as a comrade?
Honestly i loathe both characters.Alistair just wanted to kill Loghain while Morrigan just wanted the archdemon soul,none of them wanted to just end the blight and save Thedas.I will concede to Alistair that his actions were not premeditated and that he quitted for a deep anger for the decision of the Warden,still he was wrong
Not sure... which characters do you like then?
I mean, from Dragon Age Origins anyway, considering this is the forum for Dragon Age: Origins...
I consider Riordan to be far more close to Duncan than Alistair,the man knew him since their joining 30 years prior to DAO.Alistair didnt wanted to kill Jowan so badly despite the fact that he poisoned Eamon,so why now he has to have this crisis?
Duncan wasn't a replacement father to Riordan. Loghain was behind the poisoning of Eamon, not Jowan. Jowan was just a coward who followed orders. If Jowan hadn't done it, someone else would have followed Loghain's orders.
Loghain doesn't stab you in the back, he stabs you in the front. lol!
Also, Alistair was not my Warden's friend. He was just another Warden trying to stop the Blight in my game and complained the whole way through over every decision made. Loghain is a leader, a skilled warrior, and a hero who can boost the morale of his people. He's a very good asset to the Wardens and I don't blame anyone for wanting him recruited instead of killed. Killing him is just a waste.
Also, add me in with the 'Gaider's argument is ridiculous' lot. Everything I said above are good enough reasons to want Loghain recruited in addition to following the advice of a senior Warden, and if we couldn't kill the Archdemon we would've had a full blown Blight on our hands that could last for years. I can see Grey Warden Loghain out there commanding his own units but I most certainly can't see that of Grey Warden Alistair. At least not at that point in time.
Alistair sat back and allowed The Warden to lead the way, then had to be manipulated (hardened), and practically dragged to the throne before he would take it. By the time the Landsmeet rolled around, I was glad the game was providing me with another alternative. Alistair only further proves how unfit he is through his declaration of abandoning the Wardens and his country to certain death while planning to use the throne to enact his revenge, most likely causing another civil war on top of a post blighted country. My Cousland saw him as a disgrace and not any sort of King he would willingly bow to. My guy married Anora, spared Loghain, and had Alistair executed. And I don't see how any of that was selfish. Fereldan was on the brink of collapse and it's rather silly to ignore that just to cater to some guy throwing a temper tantrum.
Honestly, Alistair can end up being more of a deserter and traitor to his people than Loghain ever was.
Loghain
i. agree with the strategy discussed on a war meeting you attend
ii. decide to retreat after you lit the beacon, leaving the king and Grey Warden dead
iii. accuse Grey Warden killing the king
iv. accuse Grey Warden as traitor to Ferelden and put bounty on surviving Grey Warden, you
v. hire assassins to kill you specifically
vi. cause civil war by his action on betraying the king
vii. poisoning Arl Eamon and lead to chain of events
viii. made a pact with Uldred also lead to chain of events
ix. selling slaves to Tevinter to support his campaign
x. If you are a Cousland, Loghain work with Howe who kill your entire family
Alistair
i. done nothing that make anyone hate him so much
So why choose Loghain over Alistair?
i.
And suggested to Cailan to remain with him instead to go on the front lines
ii.
After you light the beacon half an hour late to what was planned.
iii
Yes because in his mind the GW had already an horrible reputation after what Sophia did and that is why they were exiled,plus Orlais always using the GW to start invasions
iV
same reasons as 3 he believe that the GW are the one who whish to use the blight for their own ends
v
same as point 3 and 4
vi
Tegan is equally to blame for the civil war
Cailan killed himself. by charging out from the bottleneck of Ostagar,his strategy was completely stupid he lost all the mabari hounds ,he didn't properly used the archers and he finally charged directly the dark spawns in open field.
vii
i concede this point
viii
After Ostagar, Uldred nearly convinces the Circle to support Loghain Mac Tir, claiming that Loghain will reward the Circle's support by granting it more freedom from the Chantry. At a meeting to discuss the Circle's alliance, Uldred attempts to explain away Loghain's actions, but the other mages are unconvinced and Uldred attempts to leave. Irving does not allow this, and Uldred attacks, along with a group of blood mages supporting him. During this fight Uldred attempts to summon a Pride demon but is overwhelmed and becomes an abomination.
Uldred actions were his own doing,
ix
point is yours
x
Disagree Gaider confirmed that Loghain had nothing to do with it
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