505 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

Not sure... which characters do you like then?

 

I mean, from Dragon Age Origins anyway, considering this is the forum for Dragon Age: Origins...

there are so many companions between DAO and DAA that dismiss only these two isn't a problem at all.

[Seraphim24]

there are so many companions between DAO and DAA that dismiss only these two isn't a problem at all.

 

Oh ok.. I just don't meet many Wynne fans I guess... although Wynne honestly seems all right been awhile.

 

Maybe someone should start a Wynne thread haha.

[Elhanan]

Honestly, Alistair can end up being more of a deserter and traitor to his people than Loghain ever was.

Perhaps in someone's opinion. Yet, that is based on an outcome predicated by actions and choices made during the course of gameplay.

However, in any session, Loghain holds the responsibility for the poisoning of Eamon, the slavery of Elves from the alienage, rewarding Howe and not confronting those deeds, etc. Loghain is always a greater threat to the Warden.

[Hazegurl]

Loghain

 

i. agree with the strategy discussed on a war meeting you attend

ii. decide to retreat after you lit the beacon, leaving the king and Grey Warden dead

iii. accuse Grey Warden killing the king

iv. accuse Grey Warden as traitor to Ferelden and put bounty on surviving Grey Warden, you

v. hire assassins to kill you specifically

vi. cause civil war by his action on betraying the king

vii. poisoning Arl Eamon and lead to chain of events

viii. made a pact with Uldred also lead to chain of events

ix. selling slaves to Tevinter to support his campaign

x. If you are a Cousland, Loghain work with Howe who kill your entire family

 

Alistair

 

i. done nothing that make anyone hate him so much

 

So why choose Loghain over Alistair?

Because it's not about personal feelings moreso than what is best for the country at that point in time. Loghain is a warrior and leader, something that is needed in case they fail to kill the Archdemon. Why kill someone who can lead an army during a time when a skill like that would be the most valuable? IMO, It's choosing between a general and a regular infantry soldier. Sorry, but the general wins, even if I hate the guy. Which I don't.

 

Alistair gets hate from me for the reasons I stated in my post above. Okay hate is a strong word, he's my go to romance for my female wardens, even made my mage warden his mistress with no problems, what works for me is just having Alistair duel him and kill him. But my Male Cousland always marries Anora and always kill Alistair for those reasons I already posted and I agree with that decision far more than whatever reasons I can cook up for my female warden letting Alistair do as he pleases because she wuvs him.

 

Howe killed the Couslands on his own.

[Ryzaki]

Eh they're both ridiculously bullheaded. Pretty sure Loghain wouldn't be willing to join the PC if they lopped off Anora's head either but since that's not an option we'll never know.

[Artona]

Monica21 did great job in explaining why it's reasonable to keep Loghain alive, so I'll just add:
 

 

It is like you already prove Hitler crimes, defeating Hitler in a duel, but then you make him one of you

 

Well, actually after downfall of Hitler's short-lived empire there was no one who could stop Stalin from seizing control over Eastern Europe. But Loghain, unlike Hitler, actually was lesser evil, compared to Archdemon. 

 

 

 

Wow, i just don't understand why anyone could defend an obvious evil person who stab their back in every turn instead of a friend who would die beside them...i lost faith in humanity...i don't want to live on earth anymore.

Well, so I believe you never recruit such obviously evil people like Zevran, Sten, Morrigan, Oghren or that abomination, Wynne? Besides that - Loghain isn't "stabby-in-the-back" type; of course, he betrays the king, but he doesn't try to hide that he hates Orlesians, distrusts Wardens, etc. Honestly, you could say that Alistair stabs you in the back - after all, it's Alistair who leaves just before mano a mano with Archdemon. 
 

 

 

 

Alistair sat back and allowed The Warden to lead the way, then had to be manipulated (hardened), and practically dragged to the throne before he would take it. By the time the Landsmeet rolled around, I was glad the game was providing me with another alternative.  Alistair only further proves how unfit he is through his declaration of abandoning the Wardens and his country to certain death while planning to use the throne to enact his revenge, most likely causing another civil war on top of a post blighted country.

 

Well said. C'mon, Alistair spends entire game convincing you that he doesn't want to lead, he is fine following, he lets you make all important decision - and then, after Circle, Redcliffe, Brecillian Forest, Orzammar - then he decides to spoil your plan to unite Ferelden. 
By the way - it would be interesting moral choice, if we were able to recruit Howe to Great Warden - as human noble, of course. 

[RakhanaBby]

Well, when a man of military upheld status decided that the only real family you've ever had was "expendable", well, can't say I blame the guy.

[Qis]

Because it's not about personal feelings moreso than what is best for the country at that point in time. Loghain is a warrior and leader, something that is needed in case they fail to kill the Archdemon. Why kill someone who can lead an army during a time when a skill like that would be the most valuable? IMO, It's choosing between a general and a regular infantry soldier. Sorry, but the general wins, even if I hate the guy. Which I don't.

 

 

Err...that regular infantry soldier is the rightful heir to the throne...Loghain is just a general and he was a commoner, he's not even noble.

[Qis]

 

Well, so I believe you never recruit such obviously evil people like Zevran, Sten, Morrigan, Oghren or that abomination, Wynne? Besides that - Loghain isn't "stabby-in-the-back" type; of course, he betrays the king, but he doesn't try to hide that he hates Orlesians, distrusts Wardens, etc. Honestly, you could say that Alistair stabs you in the back - after all, it's Alistair who leaves just before mano a mano with Archdemon.

 

Zevran an assassin, and he failed, then he joined my cause and pldge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight

 

Sten also pledge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight

 

Morrigan, i see nothing evil from her, and she help me against the Blight.

 

All these character above will not against The Warden unless they have low approvals, but they can see reasons even thought they might not agree with The Warden.

 

But Loghain against The Warden in every turn, even to the last moment where he's busted in the Landsmeet, he don't want to stand down, he cannot be reason with and he might kill The Warden with no remorse.

 

You still want to save his butt? Save his name? He's beyond redemption.

 

If you spare him, he win, you lose

[Monica21]

Zevran an assassin, and he failed, then he joined my cause and pldge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight
 
Sten also pledge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight
 
Morrigan, i see nothing evil from her, and she help me against the Blight.
 
All these character above will not against The Warden unless they have low approvals, but they can see reasons even thought they might not agree with The Warden.
 
But Loghain against The Warden in every turn, even to the last moment where he's busted in the Landsmeet, he don't want to stand down, he cannot be reason with and he might kill The Warden with no remorse.
 
You still want to save his butt? Save his name? He's beyond redemption.
 
If you spare him, he win, you lose

With all the companions you listed you have to prove yourself, and if you were paying attention, you'd know that Loghain responds the same way.

Loghain after defeat: I underestimated you Warden. I thought you were like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war. I was wrong. There's a strength in you that I have not seen anywhere since Maric died. I yield.

Riordan at the Landsmeet: We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us. There are three of us in all of Ferelden. And there are compelling reasons to have as many Wardens on hand as possible to deal with the Archdemon.

Loghain after sparing him: All of this can rightly be called my fault. Whether or not you can do better remains to be seen. But if you can make this the end, Warden, I will follow you. I swear it.

And worth noting, that it's not about saving Loghain. It's about having another Warden, and Alistair is too childish to see that.

[Elhanan]

Zevran an assassin, and he failed, then he joined my cause and pldge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight
 
Sten also pledge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight
 
Morrigan, i see nothing evil from her, and she help me against the Blight.
 
All these character above will not against The Warden unless they have low approvals, but they can see reasons even thought they might not agree with The Warden.
 
But Loghain against The Warden in every turn, even to the last moment where he's busted in the Landsmeet, he don't want to stand down, he cannot be reason with and he might kill The Warden with no remorse.
 
You still want to save his butt? Save his name? He's beyond redemption.
 
If you spare him, he win, you lose

And there is this: When playing a Mage Warden, I often gift the character with the ability of Precognition; helps explains already knowing what is going to occur. So on occasion, I save Loghain to have him make the sacrifice so Alistair and the Warden can live / rule. But I get your sense of justice, as after more than a score of campaigns, Loghain has not survived.

[Hazegurl]

Err...that regular infantry soldier is the rightful heir to the throne...Loghain is just a general and he was a commoner, he's not even noble.

A King is just a title and a throne is just a fancy seat. Following some newbie around for several weeks or months does not make a man a King.  Having to be pushed and prodded to a throne doesn't either. Neither is threatening your own people with death at the hands of an archdemon while you plot your petty revenge. 

 

Alistair is not a leader during the time of DAO. He sat back and handed that role to someone else. Therefore he has no one else to blame when everyone deferred to that person's judgement over his.  If the Blight grew worse, who are people going to look for on the battlefield? Some mook who followed someone else around or the Hero of River Dane?

 

Well said. C'mon, Alistair spends entire game convincing you that he doesn't want to lead, he is fine following, he lets you make all important decision - and then, after Circle, Redcliffe, Brecillian Forest, Orzammar - then he decides to spoil your plan to unite Ferelden. 
By the way - it would be interesting moral choice, if we were able to recruit Howe to Great Warden - as human noble, of course.

 

Right, Alistair brought it on himself, he lost all rights to dictate the end results of the landsmeet once he chose to play the puppet.

 

As for Howe, I admit it would be hard for me not to want to stick my knife in him as a Cousland. He would have do a lot to prove that he was worth keeping alive.

[Monica21]

As for Howe, I admit it would be hard for me not to want to stick my knife in him as a Cousland. He would have do a lot to prove that he was worth keeping alive.

I've heard the comparison between Howe and Loghain for years now, and I've never liked it. Alistair knew Duncan for six months. A Cousland spent his/her entire life with Bryce and Eleanor. They are just not equal comparisons, but I agree that the it would have made for an interesting choice, had it been presented.

[Lady Artifice]

My Cousland would have much preferred that Howe face a proper trial, just like she would have preferred for Loghain (after the Blight was dealt with). There was no satisfaction in hearing about his unwavering conviction that "he deserved more." 

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Howe is evil.  My only regret is that I couldn't torture him like he did Bann Sighard's son.  Loghain?  Sure he could've been tried for his crimes, but I didn't feel that beheading him in the royal throne room was called for.  What's stupid is that there is no prison option.  You either lose the Warden's best friend or you lose a disgraced national hero who would've made a fine Grey Warden.  Unfortunately, Loghain dies in all of my playthroughs, since Alistair is so irrational (out of character for him up to that point honestly).  I say "I can't do it." Alistair whines, and I hand him the sword.

[Qis]

A King is just a title and a throne is just a fancy seat. Following some newbie around for several weeks or months does not make a man a King.  Having to be pushed and prodded to a throne doesn't either. Neither is threatening your own people with death at the hands of an archdemon while you plot your petty revenge. 

 

Alistair is not a leader during the time of DAO. He sat back and handed that role to someone else. Therefore he has no one else to blame when everyone deferred to that person's judgement over his.  If the Blight grew worse, who are people going to look for on the battlefield? Some mook who followed someone else around or the Hero of River Dane?

 

That why you must help Alistair to gain his confidence, harden him, his life have been ignored all these time, a bastard prince living a simple life, he just need a confidence and you are his example to follow. A prince who live a simple life who being ignored will make a good king because he see things from grass root, he have empathy and humble.

 

Not like Loghain, a commoner who become noble and then become a ruthless leader, , he don't respect his own king, and he do everything to secure his position after betraying his own king. That king he betrayed is a son of his friend he serve. It is because he started as simple life but then get grandeur and titles, he forgot his place.

 

A king is not just a title, not everyone can become a king, but everyone can become a hero and any hero can become a villain.

 

Kingship is in blood either you believe that or not, even in the modern time, everyone can become a president, but not everyone can become a king.

[Monica21]

That why you must help Alistair to gain his confidence, harden him, his life have been ignored all these time, a bastard prince living a simple life, he just need a confidence and you are his example to follow. A prince who live a simple life who being ignored will make a good king because he see things from grass root, he have empathy and humble.

Not like Loghain, a commoner who become noble and then become a ruthless leader, , he don't respect his own king, and he do everything to secure his position after betraying his own king. That king he betrayed is a son of his friend he serve. It is because he started as simple life but then get grandeur and titles, he forgot his place.

A king is not just a title, not everyone can become a king, but everyone can become a hero and any hero can become a villain.

Kingship is in blood either you believe that or not, even in the modern time, everyone can become a president, but not everyone can become a king.

None of this makes any sense.

[Hazegurl]

I've heard the comparison between Howe and Loghain for years now, and I've never liked it. Alistair knew Duncan for six months. A Cousland spent his/her entire life with Bryce and Eleanor. They are just not equal comparisons, but I agree that the it would have made for an interesting choice, had it been presented.

I couldn't agree more. The death of someone you've known for a few months will never be the same as the death of a parent and even his nephew.  Howe murdered Cousland Warden's actual family so I wouldn't blame any player for gutting Howe while telling Alistair to get over himself.

 

My Cousland would have much preferred that Howe face a proper trial, just like she would have preferred for Loghain (after the Blight was dealt with). There was no satisfaction in hearing about his unwavering conviction that "he deserved more."

 

Mine wanted to take Howe into that torture room so he could give him everything he deserved and more.
 

That why you must help Alistair to gain his confidence, harden him, his life have been ignored all these time, a bastard prince living a simple life, he just need a confidence and you are his example to follow. A prince who live a simple life who being ignored will make a good king because he see things from grass root, he have empathy and humble

 

My Warden is not Alistair's father.  It's not his job to baby him and teach him how to grow up.

[Elhanan]

As far as his death scene, Howe's is something special for me.

My Human Noble had carried the family sword and shield since gifted with these in the origin, and were wielded in that final confrontation. Along with the family arms, an overt sense of justice was also included in the choices made along the way. Due to the treachery of that particular origin, little mercy was granted to those thugs and murderers that were encountered along the way. No recruiting Sten or Zevran in that campaign; most choices resulted in severe punishment for those so judged.

When finally encountering Howe, the game glitched for me as Howe finally fell during combat, and the cut-scene activated during mid-action. So when Howe declared, "I. Deserved. More....", I nodded in agreement, and my character continued his move, and hit him again! It still is satisfying after all these years.
 

[TEWR]

Howe would literally betray us as soon as he regained consciousness from taking the Joining, if it didn't kill him already.

 

Only a naive Cousland would induct a man like him.

[TEWR]

Zevran an assassin, and he failed, then he joined my cause and pldge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight

 

Sten also pledge loyalty to me, he help me against the Blight

 

Morrigan, i see nothing evil from her, and she help me against the Blight.

 

All these character above will not against The Warden unless they have low approvals, but they can see reasons even thought they might not agree with The Warden.

 

But Loghain against The Warden in every turn, even to the last moment where he's busted in the Landsmeet, he don't want to stand down, he cannot be reason with and he might kill The Warden with no remorse.

 

You still want to save his butt? Save his name? He's beyond redemption.

 

If you spare him, he win, you lose

 

As was pointed out, Loghain makes those very same promises. So you're just cherrypicking.

 

And I mean, at the time, Zevran just tried to kill you. Him professing to follow you means little because words are wind. At the time, he could just as easily slit your throat or poison you in camp, if he wanted. You have no way of knowing. Indeed, if you fail to actually make him like you, he will literally betray you.

[Artona]

 

Kingship is in blood either you believe that or not, even in the modern time, everyone can become a president, but not everyone can become a king.

 

That's not entirely true. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had elective king. For an instance, polish noble - no king nor duke whatsoever - Jan Sobieski was elected as a king. 

 

 

You still want to save his butt? Save his name? He's beyond redemption.

 

I don't care about his butt nor his name. I care about Blight and he seems to be useful tool against it. It's not personal, Sonny, it's strictly bussiness .

And why exactly Sten isn't beyond redemption and Loghain is? Why Antivian Crow isn't beyond? Why, when those guys say "I want to help to fight Blight and I swear to be loyal!" it's okay, but when Loghain does the same thing it's unacceptable? Sten killed entire family because he lost sword - how is he better than Loghain?

 

 

 

Not like Loghain, a commoner who become noble and then become a ruthless leader, , he don't respect his own king, and he do everything to secure his position after betraying his own king. That king he betrayed is a son of his friend he serve. It is because he started as simple life but then get grandeur and titles, he forgot his place.

 

You say it as there wasn't legion of kings raised to be kings just to turn out to be tyrants, incompetent fools, cowards and cruel paranoics. 

 

[Qis]

As was pointed out, Loghain makes those very same promises. So you're just cherrypicking.

 

And I mean, at the time, Zevran just tried to kill you. Him professing to follow you means little because words are wind. At the time, he could just as easily slit your throat or poison you in camp, if he wanted. You have no way of knowing. Indeed, if you fail to actually make him like you, he will literally betray you.

 

Zevran just doing his job, he's an assassin, but he failed in his ambush, then he offer his service in return for sparing him and he's proven loyal

 

Loghain is my enemy, hired Zevran to kill me, after he got busted in the Landsmeet for his crimes he don't back down, instead challenge me to duel, then he yield, ready to be punished, he offer nothing, that's why Alistair said "kill him already" if you refuse to kill him

 

It is just that Riordan who suggest he take the Joining, Loghain himself offer nothing and wait for punishment

[Aren]

And there is this: When playing a Mage Warden, I often gift the character with the ability of Precognition; helps explains already knowing what is going to occur. So on occasion, I save Loghain to have him make the sacrifice so Alistair and the Warden can live / rule. But I get your sense of justice, as after more than a score of campaigns, Loghain has not survived.

It is not necessary to resort to those kind of magical explanation, if the cunning of the warden is high enough even before Riordan tells to you about the US the warden is allowed to say that s/he figured out earlier that the death of the archdemon had something to do with the taint ,it is simply a dialogue option for those who have an high cunning when they confront Riordan and he is impressed that you figured out this in part on yourself from your deduction.

[Monica21]

Zevran just doing his job, he's an assassin, but he failed in his ambush, then he offer his service in return for sparing him and he's proven loyal
 
Loghain is my enemy, hired Zevran to kill me, after he got busted in the Landsmeet for his crimes he don't back down, instead challenge me to duel, then he yield, ready to be punished, he offer nothing, that's why Alistair said "kill him already" if you refuse to kill him
 
It is just that Riordan who suggest he take the Joining, Loghain himself offer nothing and wait for punishment

Why are you continuing to insist on the obvious and ignore everything else? I can't decide if you're really this irrational or just a half-bad troll.

Zevran brings a team of assassins, ambushes you, and then attempts to kill you and your party. Only when he loses does he offer his services. If you were actually as interested in justice as you say you are, you'd kill him for his crime of attempted murder, but you haven't managed to explain how Zevran is different from Loghain, other than the conflict playing out longer. And you're also ignoring what TEWR said, that Zevran can still betray you.

And why should Loghain back down for his crimes? What he says is actually much more powerful than an apology, and I don't think he has anything to apologize for. Loghain doesn't offer anything because you've already won. He has nothing left to offer and he knows it. He doesn't try to bargain for his life, and I find that a much more admirable trait than Zevran. Loghain does what's asked of him, whether it's dying on the floor of the Landsmeet or taking the Warden oath.