Even Ser Cauthrian questioned the retreat, but then Alix is special....
Well, consider that Cauthrien is sort of established as a "follow my leader, right or wrong"-sort of person, and a big part of this debate is whether Loghain should have followed a leader who was wrong. It makes sense, in a way, that Cauthrien would be more inclined to an honorable death following orders, while Loghain, who was more of a tactician, would be more willing to weigh the outcomes.
I scoff at anyone calling Eamon "that poor man." That said, of course he did. And so what? It's politics. And Eamon's not at Ostagar because Cailan never called on his troops. He had to be reminded by Duncan that his troops were ready, and Cailan says, "He just wants in on the glory" which may be the only thing Cailan ever got right.
What's that you say? A detailed explanation of Ostagar? Well here you go.
I used to argue that Loghain betrayed Calian, even while still choosing Loghain over Alistair and seeing what an idiot Calian was. But after seeing that pic of the darkspawn horde from the tower then seeing it in game in my own play through, I had to change my mind. I just see no way Loghain could have helped in that fight. Then you have the account of Carver at Ostagar where it states that the moment Calian and Duncan fell it was over and soldiers began retreating. There's no way Loghain could have stopped that from happening. He would have gone down there with the horde at his back, Calian and Duncan dead, and soldiers who were in the middle of breaking rank and scattering.
Arl Eamon was a manipulative pos who didn't give two craps about Alistair. I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if he kept the necklace as a way to keep Alistair emotionally attached to him. It worked. Sorry, had to rant for a sec. lol!
I scoff at anyone calling Eamon "that poor man." That said, of course he did. And so what? It's politics. And Eamon's not at Ostagar because Cailan never called on his troops. He had to be reminded by Duncan that his troops were ready, and Cailan says, "He just wants in on the glory" which may be the only thing Cailan ever got right.
What's that you say? A detailed explanation of Ostagar? Well here you go.
Hahaha it always helps to link KoP's blog post 
Well, consider that Cauthrien is sort of established as a "follow my leader, right or wrong"-sort of person, and a big part of this debate is whether Loghain should have followed a leader who was wrong. It makes sense, in a way, that Cauthrien would be more inclined to an honorable death following orders, while Loghain, who was more of a tactician, would be more willing to weigh the outcomes.
Established as a follower? She is a leader; one that commands the assault on the Warden after Howe is killed. But the whole Loghain - Ostegar thing is for another thread. And I am on record for killing him most every single time.
I didn't mean a follower in that sense. She acts out of loyalty first and foremost. See the pre-Landsmeet encounter for her believing that Loghain is in the wrong, but taking his side despite that, because it's the honorable thing to do.
I didn't mean a follower in that sense. She acts out of loyalty first and foremost. See the pre-Landsmeet encounter for her believing that Loghain is in the wrong, but taking his side despite that, because it's the honorable thing to do.
I think Loghain is given waay too much credit regarding the civil war. The dude preemptively poisoned Eamon, in order to deal with Cailan in some capacity.
In all honesty, his situation kind of reminds me of whathisface from Fable 3, the evil (turns out his name is Logan, ha!). Once they have their backs to the corner we get the "I'll do anything to defend my country, let's see you do better!" defense. But it's like... if you're choosing the path to do "whatever it takes", it doesn't really work as a justification when you lack all competence in doing so.
Hahaha it always helps to link KoP's blog post
But I'm not seeing an explanation of the function of the signal in the plan.
and that's where i disagree,since to me and apparently others players as well, lose Alistair for Loghain was well worth it.
I'll bite, but here's my full case.
In the past year or so, Loghain has effectively been digging a ditch both for himself and for Ferelden. From his point of view, he was trying to save nation, but objectively he was dooming it. That's the ironic tragedy of Loghain's character as presented in the games. He truly believes that he's doing what's best for Ferelden, but he's completely wrong. Worst, he bought into his own legend and he can't even see how he's becoming just like the very Orlesians that he'd thrown out decades ago.
1) Ostagar
I won't fault him for withdrawing from Ostagar since it was a lost cause. From a military and strategic perspective, withdrawing preserved strength for later which would have otherwise been wasted.
However, I'd remind folks that Cailan was indeed following Loghain's plan. Loghain is the one who came up with the Anvil and Hammer Strategy that the Beacon was central to. So the idea that Loghain abandoned the king isn't without merit since Loghain didn't so much as send a messenger informing the King of his withdrawal so that Cailan could at least try to escape himself. Instead, Cailan died waiting on Loghain to perform his end of his plan and many others died with their king. From a moral and ethical standpoint, this is dubious on Loghain's part and puts his trustworthiness into considerable doubt.
However, I won't hold this as a negative against him.
2) The Civil War
Loghain isn't completely at fault, but he deserves the lion's share. Loghain has been running his nation for nearly 30 years and should know the temperament of his own people. He should know that attempting to just seize total authority without a proper vote on the matter would anger the Bannorn. He should know that his timing was terrible. He should know that having Anora call a Landsmeet to determine who will rule would be the better option.
Instead, he kicks a hornet's nest and is surprised when the hornets sting him.
It should be noted that Loghain apparently struck the first blow in the war. He responded to the Bannorn's reluctance with force and threats including executing Bann Grainne when she destroyed her land's harvest rather than allow Loghain's army to feed off it. His heavy handed tactics effectively turned his own people against him and ensured that the Bannorn would burn before willingly bowing to him. This is Loghain's single greatest mistake and its the catalyst for other problems and woes.
If Loghain isn't responsible for starting the war, he's definitely responsible for escalating it.
So this situation displays a considerable fault in judgement and diplomacy.
3) The Warden Bounty
He may hate Orlais with good reason, but framing the Wardens for Cailan's death and actively trying to murder them was a mistake.
Blocking further Warden aid also meant that Ferelden was going to be left to the wolves. Wardens have historically been proven to be the only order capable of defeating the Blight and Loghain has turned them away when he needed them most. So even if Loghain had won the Civil War (which was an effective stalemate by the Landsmeet anyway), he would never have beaten the Blight.
He allowed his own paranoia to doom his beloved Ferelden.
This displays tendencies of treachery, deception and personal paranoia. So the ditch goes deeper for Loghain here.
4) Howe
Loghain's worst misstep by far.
This stands whether or not you believe that Loghain had anything to do with the Cousland massacre like I do. (for the record, Gaider doesn't explicitly say that Loghain wasn't involved. Merely that Howe did things independently and Loghain tolerated them. Which actions these happen to be are still ambiguous.)
Howe is an unpopular noble who has committed treason, mass murder, slander, torture, and later embezzlement.
If Loghain's ship sinking, it got a lot heavier when Howe was allowed aboard. Loghain lost any moral high ground that he might have had by picking this worst of the worst scoundrel as his bedmate. Then he appoints him as Teryn of Highever and of Denerem? Worst yet, Howe revels in tyranny and brutality over his lands in Amaranthine, Highever and Denerem and his antics as the "Butcher of Denerem" become known as far as the Free Marches.
This is also the same man who'd go on to kidnap the Queen herself, Loghain's very own daughter and use her as a hostage. This sounds like a guy who was itching to off Loghain somewhere down the line. It's even implied that Howe was influencing Loghain further down the dark side and making Loghain lose more and more of his moral standards.
Part of being a good leader means picking the right allies and it's never smart to give power to someone that you can't trust. Howe is the literal definition of a poisonous ally whose going to get you killed.
The man is voiced by Tim Curry for crying out loud!
5) Selling the Alienage into Slavery to Tevinter
Speaks for itself. What Loghain did here was illegal, unethical, immoral, and he did it after straining the country's finances to try and save some economic face. Can't say much else.
6) Eamon
I can't say anything about this topic that hasn't already been said. But I should note that Loghain not only interfered with Chantry business by capturing, imprisoning and torturing a templar; but he also used a known blood mage and Circle runaway that the templar was pursuing for his plot to incapacitate Eamon BEFORE Ostagar.
So that's multiple strikes in one.
Conclusion
Loghain's proven himself to be more of a liability in the past year than a benefit. Any genius or ability that he may have is overshadowed by failure and misstep after failure and misstep since Ostagar. As Grey Wardens try to recruit the most capable and proven candidates to be Wardens, why should Loghain be considered?
In light of his epic failure, why should he considered more valuable than templar-trained Alistair? Or Zevran? Or Sten? Heck, I'd even pick Ser Cathrien considering that she's as tough as a High Dragon.
You do remember how we were supposed to light the beacon when ALL of the Darkspawn were committed to the battle? Word of God -- and the very end of the battle where Duncan dies -- shows that Darkspawn were still pouring in from the Wilds, and you can even see this standing on the bridge of Ostagar. Monica21 can probably link the photos showing the horde stretching back into the ass-end of the Wilds.
**** even Morrigan and Flemeth say that the horde is strongest in the Wilds right now.
We light the beacon not only an hour late -- which Loghain had no way of knowing was due to Darkspawn interference -- but also without having performed it right, as Darkspawn are still coming out in droves. Moreover, Cailan's forces are cracking under the pressure.
though in all fairness, the beacon level was designed so that it'd be impossible for anyone to look out at the battle. But that's Bioware's failing and in terms of canon Alistair just blindly rushed to light it without surveying the battle.
Which makes his "The king had nearly defeated them!" comment all the more infuriating. DUDE you didn't even bother to check the battle after that Ogre was killed.
Remember that if you asking the guard at the tower of Ishal before the battle, the guard say the tower is closed under Loghain's order because they discover a "lower chamber" that not existed before.
Loghain KNOW Darkspawn will overrun the tower, it's a set up. Loghain have planned it all along, he only don't know Cailan move in sending The Warden and Alistair to light the beacon, but that didn't give any effect of his plan.
The battle of Ostagar is his plan, not Cailan...Cailan plan is wait for reinforcement from Orlais, but Loghain insist on battling the Darkspawn alone. And so the King want to be a hero, it's nothing wrong with that actually, but Loghain already expect that and planned it out to murder the King....
I scoff at anyone calling Eamon "that poor man." That said, of course he did. And so what? It's politics. And Eamon's not at Ostagar because Cailan never called on his troops. He had to be reminded by Duncan that his troops were ready, and Cailan says, "He just wants in on the glory" which may be the only thing Cailan ever got right.
I believe Cailan said that in humor manner, not seriously, Arl Eamon is his uncle after all. They are family.
Jowan poison Arl Eamon BEFORE battle of Ostagar, i believe that is the reason why Arl Eamon troop don't arrive...in Lothering Ser Donald confirmed that the arl get sick BEFORE the king death
And guess what, the Elven spy is hired by HOWE
Loghain and Howe have planned for it all along, including Couslnad genocide
Loghain just want to wash his hands with Howe and save his name, that's all. That's what politicians will do when they are busted
Remember that if you asking the guard at the tower of Ishal before the battle, the guard say the tower is closed under Loghain's order because they discover a "lower chamber" that not existed before.
Loghain KNOW Darkspawn will overrun the tower, it's a set up. Loghain have planned it all along, he only don't know Cailan move in sending The Warden and Alistair to light the beacon, but that didn't give any effect of his plan.
The battle of Ostagar is his plan, not Cailan...Cailan plan is wait for reinforcement from Orlais, but Loghain insist on battling the Darkspawn alone. And so the King want to be a hero, it's nothing wrong with that actually, but Loghain already expect that and planned it out to murder the King....
There's noting at all to indicate Loghain knows that the darkspawn will overrun the tower, that's just an inference on your part. All we know is that they have found the lower chamber, and that he thinks it's prudent to close the tower until they look into it.
It's a mutual effort as far as whose plan it is, and it's very clear Cailan is taking control of things on the field. Loghain is pretty much a bystander just waiting for the signal.
There's noting at all to indicate Loghain knows that the darkspawn will overrun the tower, that's just an inference on your part. All we know is that they have found the lower chamber, and that he thinks it's prudent to close the tower until they look into it.
It's a mutual effort as far as whose plan it is, and it's very clear Cailan is taking control of things on the field. Loghain is pretty much a bystander just waiting for the signal.
The lower chamber is where Darkspawn going into the tower. If the tower is not safe why Loghain still want to use it?
As soon as you arrive, two men running for help,
Guards : "help, help, they are everywhere...you, Grey Warden aren't you? The Darkspawn have overtaken the tower"
Alistair : "Overtaken? How?"
Remember that this is just an hour or so after Duncan give his final speech to the Warden and Alistair, and that is just a few moment after the war meeting with the King...
Loghain KNOW the tower will be overrun by Darkspawn, but he mentioned nothing about the tower in the meeting.
The lower chamber is where Darkspawn going into the tower. If the tower is not safe why Loghain still want to use it?
But Loghain is in cahoots with Howe; rewards him for his actions instead of being brought to justice. While Loghain may not have been in on the plan to kill the Couslands, he is responsible for the murderous action of his advisor, and is deserving of judgment.
He is absolutely not responsible for the murderous actions of his advisor. Did Loghain encourage him to do it? Threaten him? Was he in on the planning? The answers to all of those questions are "no" so Loghain is not responsible for Howe's actions. Howe did it himself. If Bioware wanted us to believe that Loghain and Howe were involved in killing the Couslands then we would have been slapped in the face with it, if not during the game itself then in Awakening when you find all the notes from Howe's men. It's an interesting presumption, but there is not a single shred of evidence to back it up.
Loghain is responsible for what he does with Howe after Ostagar, but even as a Cousland I can't blame him for using Howe. He needed the troops.
The answer is that we do not know if Loghain motivated Howe in some way. However, we do know that Howe is not punished, but is rewarded for those actions, even when informed of them in the Human Noble origin. Since Loghain benefitted from those actions, he is to be judged accordingly.
It's true that I can't prove a negative, but don't you think that if he did motivate Howe that the writers would have gone to great lengths to show complicity?
All the game shows definitively is Howe wasn't punished for his crimes, something Cailan intended to do once the battles in Ostagar were over, but even he says it will take an army to bring him to justice. At the point the Cousland is in Ostagar, Howe has slaughtered his family and taken over Highever.
According to the writers, Loghain needed Howe. That meant he needed troops, land, revenue, and I've been told, advice, all coming from (Howe) Highever in addition to Amaranthine, one of the richest areas of Ferelden. At this point, Loghain lacks the manpower (he's embroiled in the Civil War his actions at the landsmeet instigated) and capitol--(Howe was stealing from the royal treasury) he needs. In addition to trying to keep Orlesians out of the country, this would have meant a third front when he was already beleaguered on two fronts (Darkspawn and rebelling nobility).
Loghain is nothing if not pragmatic. He probably intended to do something in the future, but saw Howe was too powerful to stop at this time so prudence chased justice out the door and he looked the other way instead of confronting Howe about it. That it makes his actions look suspicious, I will admit, but I don't believe he had a hand directly or indirectly in the Cousland massacre.
If anything, I think Bryce would have seen the sense of not fighting in the midst of the crisis and supported Loghain. Dealing with whatever issues Loghain caused in the course of getting to that point later once things could be sorted out.
For the sake of practicality, he'll deal with one devil but not the other. Can't let the slaving and torturing ways of the Orlesians get in the way of his own campaign of enslavement and torture.
I staunchly believe and will always echo my thoughts that Bryce and the other Couslands would've supported Anora. They wouldn't have known about Alistair surviving Ostagar and they're noted as staunch royalists. Bryce would've proposed that Anora wed Alistair, I'm sure, to solidify peace between both factions -- Anora's supporters and Theirin traditionalists.
The answer is that we do not know if Loghain motivated Howe in some way. However, we do know that Howe is not punished, but is rewarded for those actions, even when informed of them in the Human Noble origin. Since Loghain benefitted from those actions, he is to be judged accordingly.
We actually find evidence that from a logistical standpoint shows that Howe would've been planning his actions for at least a month or two, if not more, prior to the Blight. It's just not something that can feasibly be put together in a short period of time.
Which Loghain wouldn't have supported since the Darkspawn had only been seen about three weeks prior to the Human Noble Origin.
Now if you want to call Loghain an accessory after the fact, that is more then fair. I'm sure in non-HN origins he's clearly savvy enough to know what Howe did. But Loghain did have to worry about the political and military problems Howe would bring to the table if antagonized. Loghain's failing was thinking that he could control Howe and his excessive drive for more power.
It should be noted that Loghain apparently struck the first blow in the war. He responded to the Bannorn's reluctance with force and threats including executing Bann Grainne when she destroyed her land's harvest rather than allow Loghain's army to feed off it. His heavy handed tactics effectively turned his own people against him and ensured that the Bannorn would burn before willingly bowing to him. This is Loghain's single greatest mistake and its the catalyst for other problems and woes.
Actually, not true. Bann Graine's husband died at Winter's Breath, a battle in the Civil War. The actual first battle was more then likely the one where Loghain's men were invited to talk with another Bann under a peaceful banner and were instead attacked. I'd argue that what really got the powderkeg getting bigger and bigger after Teagan's ill-timed throwing oil on it and urging people to set it ablaze was when Loghain felt the need to arrest 3 banns (for what, we're not told), which might've prompted the aforementioned battle.
And also, while Bann Graine had every right to do what she did as a Bann, it was still a petty and stupid thing to do.
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