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[ShadowLordXII]

Actually, not true. Bann Graine's husband died at Winter's Breath, a battle in the Civil War. The actual first battle was more then likely the one where Loghain's men were invited to talk with another Bann under a peaceful banner and were instead attacked. I'd argue that what really got the powderkeg getting bigger and bigger after Teagan's ill-timed throwing oil on it and urging people to set it ablaze was when Loghain felt the need to arrest 3 banns (for what, we're not told), which might've prompted the aforementioned battle.

 

 

 

And also, while Bann Graine had every right to do what she did as a Bann, it was still a petty and stupid thing to do.

 

None of this confirms that Loghain wasn't the aggressor or the escalator in the Civil War.

 

Nor does this justify murdering Graine simply because she refused to follow Loghain. Now if Loghain were the lawful king, these would be grounds to arrest her for arson and possibly treason. But since Loghain is NOT the lawful king, the situation with Graine merely becomes one more example of Loghain trying to use intimidation, terror and force to get the Bannorn to follow him. Considering how dirty Loghain's hands are, I wouldn't be surprised if he had indeed ambushed Bann Bronach under an offer of peace.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZspDRkYyh4

 

And here's Loghain's Push for further condemnation in the case of Bann Telman:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d34FMp7TJB8

 

Loghain clearly ordered his men to seize the lands and supplies of any freeholder or bann who would accept his authority willingly. Just like Bann Telman, these lords are merely standing up for their own freedom to choose their own lord and not have it forced on them. Loghain honors their boldness with nothing but ruin and death. No different than the Orlesians did decades ago.

 

The Narrative still firmly remains that Loghain is attempting to seize power under questionable means and circumstances; the Bannorn refuse to bow to him simply because he demands it; Loghain tries to force the issue; the Bannorn don't budge; and fingers seem to point to Loghain as being the escalator. 

 

None of which would have happened if Loghain had stepped own and let Anora call a Landsmeet to settle matters. Then the Landsmeet could elect Anora before Loghain ruins her reputation through his regency and Loghain would have the Bannorn follow him as their lawful general. Or better yet, don't declare yourself regent if your daughter is "apparently capable" of ruling the land herself. (I would question why Anora didn't merely step forward sooner to deescalate tensions rather than later)

 

Instead, he appears to ignore both Anora and Howe (you know you've screwed up when Howe's calling you an idiot) when they point out the obvious and he insists on escalating the War even while the darkspawn devour the very people that he's trying to save.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwUYmZiWzg0

[Elhanan]

We actually find evidence that from a logistical standpoint shows that Howe would've been planning his actions for at least a month or two, if not more, prior to the Blight. It's just not something that can feasibly be put together in a short period of time.
 
Which Loghain wouldn't have supported since the Darkspawn had only been seen about three weeks prior to the Human Noble Origin.
 
Now if you want to call Loghain an accessory after the fact, that is more then fair. I'm sure in non-HN origins he's clearly savvy enough to know what Howe did. But Loghain did have to worry about the political and military problems Howe would bring to the table if antagonized. Loghain's failing was thinking that he could control Howe and his excessive drive for more power.

So he is at least guilty of letting Howe continue his campaign which makes the Regent complicit. Thus in my campaigns, both are judged for this, and Loghain has yet to see the aftermath in DA2.

[Qis]

Suggesting that Loghain was in cahoots with the darkspawn is just as silly as suggesting he was in cahoots with Howe. Remember that giant hole in the floor? That's where the ogre broke through, and that's how the tower got overrun. The tower was built over old burial grounds, and those are the lower chambers. The only way to get from the lower chamber to the tower itself is through that hole in the floor. Loghain or his men most likely noticed the exit from the chamber onto the valley floor and realized its proximity to the tower, hence closing it off until they can could clear it.

 

Loghain don't mentioned anything about "lower chamber" in the meeting, there is something wrong with the tower and he don't mentioned it at all, he only say he have some men to guard it and to light the beacon.

 

Loghain is in cohort with Howe, why would Howe become his right hand? If you're Cousland and talk to him in Ostagar, he mentioned that the King will punish Howe as promised, means he know what Howe did already, by means HE KNOW BECAUSE IT IS HIS PLAN

[TEWR]

Or it is something bad about The Warden who suddenly decide to betray him at the very last minute for no reason.

 

I can literally go the whole game saying absolutely nothing about Loghain to Alistair, and even talk about working with him at one point in front of Alistair prior to the Landsmeet.

 

Saying I'm betraying Alistair is a stretch. Alistair may consider it one but then I could very well say the same for him leaving me. Alistair will be fine and follow us if we 

 

1) kill Connor or Isolde

2) Wipe out the Circle

3) Preserve the Anvil where Dwarven souls will be forged into Golems (I personally view this as a necessary action)

4) Kill the Dalish Elves. Or the Werewolves

5) Leave Redcliffe to the zombie horde

6) sell Elves into slavery -- which would give us no reason to condemn Loghain

7) work with a possessed corpse at one point

8) murderknife people left and right

 

and so on and so forth. So for this to be the thing where he draws the line just makes him seem like a child who has no concept of where he stands on anything. He'll voice his disapproval about the other things but that he is more willing to accept slavery and follow the Warden rather then work with Loghain makes me really see him as a fool.

[Amne YA]

the real question why do you need alistair  to convince you to kill Loghaun . 
like you where there too . he left you in the battle feild . he let you to die . let the man who saved your ass duncan to die . send assassin after you .  what do you want more . even if alistair  dont want to kill him i would anyway 

[Illegitimus]

It's true that I can't prove a negative, but don't you think that if he did motivate Howe that the writers would have gone to great lengths to show complicity?

 

No.  They really wouldn't.  That's like saying "If there was no prior arrangement between Howe and Loghain, don't you think that the writers have would specifically shown that?"

[Monica21]

No.  They really wouldn't.  That's like saying "If there was no prior arrangement between Howe and Loghain, don't you think that the writers have would specifically shown that?"

You just said the same thing. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is not a valid argument. And I will say that Bioware's writers are not subtle. If Loghain was complicit with Howe (which Gaider has stated that he was not) then they would have shown us. It's really that simple, and believing anything else is foolish. Loghain has done enough to make killing him a valid RP choice. There's no reason to throw unsubstantiated claims about the Couslands on top of that.

[Seraphim24]

Ok so.... this just turned into a Loghain discussion...

 

Here is the best way to go about the stuff

 

1. Kill Ser Cauthrien - There is no reason not to believe Loghain wouldn't just kill you at that point essentially, so you are self-defending yourself against her and Loghain at that point.

2. Duel Loghain with someone other than Alistair after winning the Landsmeet vote -> Have hardened Alistair take the throne with Anora.

3. Induct Loghain into Grey Wardens -> Yes Loghain has commited very egregious acts, but Grey Warden taint is ultimately a death sentence in many ways but also at that point you know an Archdemon requires the death of a Grey Warden, so the appropriate atonement for Loghain is to sacrifice himself for Fereldan.

4. Reject Morrigan and the demon baby - Morrigan's intentions are never clear, the magic involved is transferring an essence of Archdemon, most logical conclusion is it is possibly preserving the Archdemon in one form or another, i.e. new blight and other problems.

5. Request (compel?) Loghain to sacrifice himself to kill the Archdemon.

[Illegitimus]

You just said the same thing. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is not a valid argument. And I will say that Bioware's writers are not subtle. If Loghain was complicit with Howe (which Gaider has stated that he was not)

 

 

No he hasn't.  He's said that some of the things Howe did weren't approved by Loghain which really goes without saying.  He didn't say which things.  My head canon is that they did conspire to kill Bryce Cousland, but the wholesale massacre was Howe's own escalation.  

[Seraphim24]

There really is no need to discuss Howe at all for Loghain's purpose, the moment Loghain decides to just randomly kill your own PC for no reason at all is essentially the point at which is life is very nearly forfeit in turn.

 

All the rest is just insult to injury.

[Illegitimus]

There really is no need to discuss Howe at all for Loghain's purpose, the moment Loghain decides to just randomly kill your own PC for no reason at all is essentially the point at which is life is very nearly forfeit in turn.

 

All the rest is just insult to injury.

 

Lots of people try to kill my PC.  Taking it personally would be petty and Loghain does have a reason.  You're coming after him with an army.  

[ShadowLordXII]

Lots of people try to kill my PC.  Taking it personally would be petty and Loghain does have a reason.  You're coming after him with an army.  

 

A wrong and unfounded reason.

 

The Grey Wardens are not Orlais. The Grey Wardens were trying to save Ferelden. Grey Wardens died to protect Ferelden.

 

Loghain's paranoia caused him to associate the Wardens with Orlais and needlessly antagonize them at the moment when his country needs them most.

 

Also, the PC doesn't come after Loghain with an army. The army that the Warden built was meant for the Blight. Even if the PC did decide to answer force with force, Loghain is still the objective agressor with the Warden having the clear moral ground since he shot first.

[sylvanaerie]

Ok so.... this just turned into a Loghain discussion...

 

Here is the best way to go about the stuff

 

1. Kill Ser Cauthrien - There is no reason not to believe Loghain wouldn't just kill you at that point essentially, so you are self-defending yourself against her and Loghain at that point.

2. Duel Loghain with someone other than Alistair after winning the Landsmeet vote -> Have unhardened Alistair take the throne with Anora.

3. Induct Loghain into Grey Wardens -> Yes Loghain has commited very egregious acts, but Grey Warden taint is ultimately a death sentence in many ways but also at that point you know an Archdemon requires the death of a Grey Warden, so the appropriate atonement for Loghain is to sacrifice himself for Fereldan.

4. Reject Morrigan and the demon baby - Morrigan's intentions are never clear, the magic involved is transferring an essence of Archdemon, most logical conclusion is it is possibly preserving the Archdemon in one form or another, i.e. new blight and other problems.

5. Request (compel?) Loghain to sacrifice himself to kill the Archdemon.

 

Unhardened Alistair will not marry Anora if you spare Loghain.  He has to be hardened for this scenario.  And "best" is subjective, varying from player to player.  I don't consider "Redemption" ending "best", just one of 4 alternative endings.  And not even one of my preferred endings.

[Aren]

 

3) Preserve the Anvil where Dwarven souls will be forged into Golems (I personally view this as a necessary action)

 

I disagree only with with this point  because you are not turning into golems helpless people but dwarves.

Dwarves are renowned to be good fighters and lore wise you will still have few golems for that battle.

But the point is put the anvil in Branka's hand and from the epilogue with Harrowant and Branka the anvil only generated a quick war between Ferelden and Orzammar.

for the rest it was an awesome post that's just show as for how i'm incapable sometime to understand the writing behind Alistair,it is forced there there is no other explanation

[Monica21]

No he hasn't.  He's said that some of the things Howe did weren't approved by Loghain which really goes without saying.  He didn't say which things.  My head canon is that they did conspire to kill Bryce Cousland, but the wholesale massacre was Howe's own escalation.

Gaider actually did say that, and he said it years ago. And no, I can't find the quote and I don't have time right now to go looking for it. And that's cool that you have totally unsupported headcanon.

[Seraphim24]

Loghain does have a reason.  You're coming after him with an army.  

 

That's not actually true, you weren't coming after him with an army until after he sent assassin's after you, then it's basically self defense from your PC perspective. Alistair and Morrigan both blame Loghain but your player never does and your player is effectively the leader. 

 

Howe tells Loghain that the Grey Wardens will try and attack him (which my PC Grey Warden can and has not planned) and Loghain just agrees for no apparent reason.

 

He either lacked confidence that the GW would believe his "retreat" idea, and so just chose to attack them instead, or he was using the GW as a scapegoat, but both are equally malicious and terrible.

 

Loghain strikes first, not at Ostagar, but in his decision to hire assassin's to kill the GW.

[Seraphim24]

Unhardened Alistair will not marry Anora if you spare Loghain.  He has to be hardened for this scenario.  And "best" is subjective, varying from player to player.  I don't consider "Redemption" ending "best", just one of 4 alternative endings.  And not even one of my preferred endings.

 

My mistake, that's true, he is hardened, still the best option though, so, hardened Alistair go with the throne.

 

Best isn't subjective, with my edit there, it is pretty clearly the way it was designed to go ultimately.

 

Sacrificing yourself in the end? No. Sacrificing Alistair? That's pretty cruel, it can work though. Creating Morrigan's unknown demon? No, that would possibly just re-create the same problems.

 

Sacrificing Loghain? Considering the options, it's really the only bet.

[Lady Artifice]

Unhardened Alistair will not marry Anora if you spare Loghain.  He has to be hardened for this scenario.  And "best" is subjective, varying from player to player.  I don't consider "Redemption" ending "best", just one of 4 alternative endings.  And not even one of my preferred endings.

 

It's my least favorite ending. If I keep Loghain alive after the landsmeet at all, he gets to watch my character make the sacrifice instead. As far as I'm concerned, the "redemption" ending lets him off way too easy.

[Seraphim24]

It's my least favorite ending. If I keep Loghain alive after the landsmeet at all, he gets to watch my character make the sacrifice instead. As far as I'm concerned, the "redemption" ending lets him off way too easy.

 

It is an almost virtual certainty that when one person has the power of life or death over themselves and another, and one must be sacrificed, the person will never choose themselves.

 

It's tempting to slide into "video game" logic and just kind of let things go, I know I do it, but in a realistic scenario, that just doesn't happen in that situation.

 

There are probably some exceptions (Parent/Child came to mind).... but even then I'm not sure.... might depend on relative ages or something

 

But the ending of DA1 was not one of them.

[Lady Artifice]

It is an almost virtual certainty that when one person has the power of life or death over themselves and another, and one must be sacrificed, the person will never choose themselves.

 

It's tempting to slide into "video game" logic and just kind of let things go, I know I do it, but in a realistic scenario, that just doesn't happen in that situation.

 

There are probably some exceptions (Parent/Child came to mind).... but even then I'm not sure.... might depend on relative ages or something

 

But the ending of DA1 was not one of them.

 

There are very certainly exceptions, quite a few of them. Parents, children, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, best friends. Every single police officer, soldier, and firefighter who has ever jumped directly into harm's way for the sake of someone else. An inestimable number of people throughout recorded history have proven their willingness to sacrifice themselves for others, whether out of love or general selflessness.

[TEWR]

 

I disagree only with with this point  because you are not turning into golems helpless people but dwarves.

Dwarves are renowned to be good fighters and lore wise you will still have few golems for that battle.

But the point is put the anvil in Branka's hand and from the epilogue with Harrowant and Branka the anvil only generated a quick war between Ferelden and Orzammar.

for the rest it was an awesome post that's just show as for how i'm incapable sometime to understand the writing behind Alistair,it is forced there there is no other explanation

 

 

I'm not sure if you're arguing in favor of the Anvil or not. Regardless, note that I said it's a necessary action to preserve it. And my point was things Alistair considers to be questionable, but will still follow you over, despite how one could have a valid argument in saying they are more morally questionable then taking in Loghain. For instance, look at how the Anvil was used by King Valtor. There's an argument to be made -- to my mind, not one that necessarily wins out -- that such a fate is one worse then death. Then there's Caridin's comments on how the souls that are forged into Golems will never know the peace of being one with the Stone.

 

As we find out, their beliefs hold merit.

 

Given the weight though of what the Dwarves are up against, I'd say the Golems are a necessary thing. I don't view preserving the Anvil as anything inherently wrong or atrocious, but Alistair does. And that's my point. Things that HE is against, but is willing to accept, which stands at odds with his position on Loghain. I

 

do feel though that Branka shouldn't come anywhere close to it. She's mad as a hatter.

 

Also, those epilogue slides annoy me, because Bioware reversed them to kiss Bhelen's ass. In the DAO endings, Bhelen presses Branka for more Golems which causes the latter to shut herself off and Bhelen to lay siege to the place (he fails however). Harrowmont ended up refusing to create more Golems upon finding out how they were made -- didn't even send the casteless to them, and he's a horrible ruler to them.

 

But come Inquisition and what happens? Now Bhelen is the one who refused to make more Golems on principle and Harrowmont is the one who's pressing her for more.

 

This isn't the first thing. The other is how Harrowmont's seemingly "isolationist policies" come out of fricking nowhere in the epilogue when, post-Orzammar, you can hear the soldiers and the merchants talk about how trade is now finally resuming. 

 

I will not deny Harrowmont is an inept ruler, but it would help if Bioware made him inept for actual reasons that weren't just "How can we kiss Bhelen's ass further?"

[TEWR]

Gaider actually did say that, and he said it years ago. And no, I can't find the quote and I don't have time right now to go looking for it. And that's cool that you have totally unsupported headcanon.

 

I can vouch for what Monica21 is saying. I in fact saw it myself years ago, and it wasn't the one where he goes "Howe did things Loghain didn't know of/approve of". It was a different one, from a different thread.

[Seraphim24]

 

 

There are very certainly exceptions, quite a few of them. Parents, children, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, best friends. Every single police officer, soldier, and firefighter who has ever jumped directly into harm's way for the sake of someone else. An inestimable number of people throughout recorded history have proven their willingness to sacrifice themselves for others, whether out of love or general selflessness.

 

 

Whatever they might be, the end of Dragon Age most certainly isn't one of them.

[Illegitimus]

Gaider actually did say that, and he said it years ago. And no, I can't find the quote and I don't have time right now to go looking for it. And that's cool that you have totally unsupported headcanon.

 

Well since there's no way to find out the "truth", gotta go with something.  

[Fylimar]

I wish, you could at least explain to Alistair, why you let Loghain live, because I think, it's more cruel, to let him live than give him an honourful death during the Landsmeet. If he survives DAO, he will become a GW in Orlais - that's poetic justice in my book. I'm not a big Loghain fan, but I'm very impassionate about taking Alistair with me or Loghain, so I let Loghain live once in a while, because I really like his fate. I picture, he hates it in Orlais a lot...