Well since there's no way to find out the "truth", gotta go with something.
Unnecessary quotation marks, just a little. And I did go hunting for it last night but it's on the old forums, and that makes searching for it that much harder. Gaider did say it, so you can believe that or go on with a theory that's unsupported, because it's "something" you still don't need to determine whether Loghain should die.
Loghain should die, and i believe to this day that he wants to die. I'd rather give him his freedom, then enslave him in the Wardens. Also Alistair is more experienced in fighting Darkspawn and a close personal friend. I can't really see any reason to recruit Loghain over him, but the game lets you do it, and to teach their own.
Why is Alistair committed to kill Loghain? Well that sounds like a silly question. He left the battle at Ostagar, killing Cailan (his brother) and Duncan (father figure) in the process. Had they won at Ostagar? We'll never know. He also sent away hundreds of Chevaliers and Wardens because of his stupid pride and almost doomed Ferelden to certain death. There are lots of reasons to want Loghain dead, i would say Alistair has good reasons.
I wish, you could at least explain to Alistair, why you let Loghain live, because I think, it's more cruel, to let him live than give him an honourful death during the Landsmeet. If he survives DAO, he will become a GW in Orlais - that's poetic justice in my book. I'm not a big Loghain fan, but I'm very impassionate about taking Alistair with me or Loghain, so I let Loghain live once in a while, because I really like his fate. I picture, he hates it in Orlais a lot...
The thing is, you can't really know that Loghain's gonna end up in Orlais. At "best", you know that becoming a Gray Warden might be a death sentence at that point, though you technically don't even know about the Ultimate Sacrifice, so even that part is iffy. And in Alistair's mind, Loghain dying as a Warden lets him die as a hero, and that's not something he deserves. You don't have to point out to Alistair that being conscripted into the Wardens is a punishment: he knows you see it that way, but that's not what he feels the Wardens are (even if he's wrong).
Alistair says it after you wake up at Flemeth's hut. I think you have to get to it through specific dialogue choices, but he does say it.
My mistake, that's true, he is hardened, still the best option though, so, hardened Alistair go with the throne.
Best isn't subjective, with my edit there, it is pretty clearly the way it was designed to go ultimately.
Sacrificing yourself in the end? No. Sacrificing Alistair? That's pretty cruel, it can work though. Creating Morrigan's unknown demon? No, that would possibly just re-create the same problems.
Sacrificing Loghain? Considering the options, it's really the only bet.
Then he is really more naive than i thought....i meant is clear that the darkspawn there were in a superior numbers,we even saw them from the bridge and AListair was even with us........
As a trained Templar, the Warden, Flemeth, Morrigan, Wynne, the tortured Noble's friend, and others witnesses all believing Loghain's treachery, there seems to be enough to merit judgment. It certainly seems to be enough to have the default World Lore set in this manner.
-The warden percpective is subjective i did not consider the retreat at Ostagar a betrayal.
-Flemeth never said that Loghain retreat was a betrayal she is just mourning to Maric about his personal betrayal during the story of the stolen throne the whole story with Rowan that happened 30 years before the blight
-Wynne came to see loghain in a different light once he is recruited during their banters and change her opinion about him.
I don't remember Morrigan ever said anything particularly noteworthy about Loghain she said the same things that Flemeth said,that she left in Ostagar nothing more she doesn't even blame him for the slavery since more or less she would have done the same thing 
i loathe them both for have supported slavery.....
I share the same sentiment,because you literally lose nothing with the redemption ending or at least i do not consider the bound with AListair to be more worthy than the security of the entire world.For story sake the US is what i prefer the most(i like tragedy stuff)but it isn't the best option because the architect is still out there,also i loathe the thought to using a baby for blood magic and then using him againSpoilerFor the world what is best it remain the redemption or the warden commander ending though i agree that sacrifice Alistair can be seen as cruel unless one did that on purpose to remove his bloodline(noble male power trip)..it is best for the world not necessarly best for the player
Yeah I mean how could anyone just offer up Alistair? (Just noticed this by the way I'm sure other Alistair fans have seen it)
But yeah, an Archdemon soul transfusion sounds almost as bad as starting up another blight, which means actually sacrificing someone, and since the only options are Alistair (who tries his very best to avoid a leader role and is very aware of his weaknesses) and yourself (which as stated before, would never happen realistically), that leaves Loghain who's very existence was already very questionable after his repeated attempts to kill your own PC.
The thing with Loghain retreating, is there is a (in the game) one minute time elapse between the lighting of the beacon and the death of Cailan and the overwhelming of the ground forces at Ostagar. For all we know, Loghain was dying to go in earlier but for the adherence to the beacon plan. If he had left wherever he was at the time it seems hard to believe he would of gotten there within one minute.
But the game also "cuts" which could of meant a significant time elapse, it's basically not clear what that means, it could of meant "10 minute later" heck even "1 hour later" because the cut is this fade-out and the game establishes that fade-outs could mean basically anything as far as time goes.
Which is again why him suddenly trying to kill your PC is most determinative, that part is super clear, Howe is like "We got to kill the Grey Wardens" and Loghains like "Get it done."
Unnecessary quotation marks, just a little.
Not really. It's a work of fiction, and we are on the meta level of being told at second hand about the author talking about ideas that he never revealed in the work and never will and might have reconsidered if he still worked on it, which he won't. That's pretty far divorced from objective reality.
Not really. It's a work of fiction, and we are on the meta level of being told at second hand about the author talking about ideas that he never revealed in the work and never will and might have reconsidered if he still worked on it, which he won't. That's pretty far divorced from objective reality.
The author is, in fact, still the author and can tell you more about what he intended than you can infer from not having any in-game evidence of complicity.
Intentions are nice. I in fact intend a constantly growing list of many wonderful things. But the in game evidence of complicity comes from that fact that after committing this highly reckless and blatant atrocity, Howe is Loghain's most trusted and rewarded retainer.
Intentions are nice. I in fact intend a constantly growing list of many wonderful things. But the in game evidence of complicity comes from that fact that after committing this highly reckless and blatant atrocity, Howe is Loghain's most trusted and rewarded retainer.
-The warden percpective is subjective i did not consider the retreat at Ostagar a betrayal.
-Flemeth never said that Loghain retreat was a betrayal she is just mourning to Maric about his personal betrayal during the story of the stolen throne the whole story with Rowan that happened 30 years before the blight
-Wynne came to see loghain in a different light once he is recruited during their banters and change her opinion about him.
I don't remember Morrigan ever said anything particularly noteworthy about Loghain she said the same things that Flemeth said,that she left in Ostagar nothing more she doesn't even blame him for the slavery since more or less she would have done the same thing
And post hoc ergo propter hoc is still a logical fallacy.
That you are misusing. Post hoc involves overlooking the possibility of coincidence. But Loghain and Howe are not actors independent of each other. Certainly they could both have coincidentally decided to betray their overlords at the same time. But Loghain could not have coincidentally decided to shower Howe with titles, gold and a position as his most trusted advisor right after Howe commits a highly blatant act of treason and atrocity. Knowing as Howe's new overlord that Howe just murdered his previous overlord has to play a role in Loghain's decision making process when handing out those goodies and place his implicit trust in the man. There is no way Loghain concluding "Howe is only noble I trust" can in fact be unconnected to Loghain knowing "Howe is a mass murdering traitor who just killed his last overlord and now I am his overlord".
Whats more this is not a formal logical proof but an exercise in narrative structure. We are not looking for the single unavoidable product of a given set of facts, but merely what makes narrative sense. And frankly I can't see what narrative purpose is served by assuming that Loghain partnership with Howe post-dates Orzammar. It makes both Loghain and Howe dumber. Loghain for implicitly trusting a man he has no reason to trust, and Howe for committing his crime with no plan for how to get away with it.
That you are misusing.
Certainly they could both have coincidentally decided to betray their overlords at the same time.
But Loghain could not have coincidentally decided to shower Howe with titles, gold and a position as his most trusted advisor right after Howe commits a highly blatant act of treason and atrocity.
Knowing as Howe's new overlord that Howe just murdered his previous overlord has to play a role in Loghain's decision making process when handing out those goodies and place his implicit trust in the man. There is no way Loghain concluding "Howe is only noble I trust" can in fact be unconnected to Loghain knowing "Howe is a mass murdering traitor who just killed his last overlord and now I am his overlord".
Whats more this is not a formal logical proof but an exercise in narrative structure. We are not looking for the single unavoidable product of a given set of facts, but merely what makes narrative sense. And frankly I can't see what narrative purpose is served by assuming that Loghain partnership with Howe post-dates Orzammar. It makes both Loghain and Howe dumber. Loghain for implicitly trusting a man he has no reason to trust, and Howe for committing his crime with no plan for how to get away with it.
The Couslands are dead or disgraced and Howe controls their teyrnir. Eamon is in a coma and Howe is the one who controls the North at this time. Loghain needs Howe on his side and politically he doesn't have a lot of options other than to make a deal with Howe.
I'll admit I'm not solid on the timing. Does Loghain make Howe his adviser before things blow up with the nobles, or is it just convenient timing that he's hired right after Teagan and the nobles make a fuss. I'll admit the titles and other rewards are a bit much, but the alternative for Loghain might be having Howe join the opposition.
No. "Loghain and Howe allied with each other after Howe murdered the Couslands therefore Loghain must have had foreknowledge that Howe was going to murder the Couslands" is what you're claiming.
Nope. My claim is "Loghain rewarding and trusting Howe after Howe's treason to his overlord is evidence that Howe did not take Loghain entirely by surprise with his move". That's one of the ways in which you are misusing post hoc. You're conflating "Is evidence" with "is proof positive".
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You're assuming that Loghain's retreat was a betrayal, which is something many people disagree with.
Deserting your commander on the field of battle and fleeing without any engagement or a "so long sucker" note, would be a difficult case to defend at a court martial.
No one is claiming that it's coincidence.
When things happen together without causal link that is called a "coincidence". The fact that coincidences happen is what makes post hoc a fallacy. So yes, when you claim the post hoc fallacy you are raising the possibility that these things happened by coincidence, that Howe happened to do something other than slaughtering the Couslands that Loghain liked so much that he ignored Howe being a mass murdering traitor and made Howe his new Best Friend Forever.
Where do you get the idea that Loghain trusts Howe?
Howe had free access to his private chambers. He followed Howe's advice on multiple occasions. He gave Howe lordship over not just one but two of the nation's most major fiefdoms. He put Howe in charge of the capital.
It's been explained to you many times why this does make sense from a narrative standpoint, not the least of which is having Ferelden's other most powerful noble in your corner so you don't have to fight a three-front war instead of a two-front war.
Howe was not Ferelden's other most powerful noble. He was no more than midrange before Loghain decided to give him the aforementioned showers of wealth and honors. Even if he decided to buy Howe's support by affirming his right to the Cousland estate, he didn't have to also give him the vacant arldom of Denerim. He could have easily used that to buy another man's loyalty, one who didn't just murder his previous overlord. Loghain isn't holding his nose and dealing with the mass murderer at arms length. He likes Howe. He trusts Howe, more than he trusts Anora. He lets Howe take custody of valuable hostages, he trusts the finances of the biggest city in Ferelden to him, he gives Howe access to his private chambers, when Howe says "let's do deals with the assassins, the slavers and the goat molesters" Loghain nods. I expect he thinks Howe's a patriot. A man who can be relied upon to do the unfortunately necessary dirty work. LIke killing Bryce Cousland.
You are not the Warden. The Warden actually makes statements against Loghain, and supports those made by others.
Flemeth indicates that Loghain left the field, the King died, and that such actions are more common than some care to believe.
Wynne states that Loghain's actions caused the deaths of the King and the Wardens. Whether or not her dislike of the man changes, the facts remain the same.
Morrigan verifies that Loghain quits the field leaving the others to die. This occurs in an interview in the hut.
Each player is their warden in my case i'm the one who chose what he has to say and if he share others opinions or not.
In my case he did not agree with most of Alistair's accusation towards Loghain.
Flemeth never stated that Loghain betrayed the king only that he left which was the point i made before since he is general and can decide for whoever strategy he believe is the best.
Yeah...that's grievously, howlingly wrong. Flemeth doesn't make a lot of direct declarative statements anyway but what she does say about Loghain is "That is a good question. Men's hearts hold secrets darker than any tainted creature. Perhaps he believes the Blight is an army he can outmanuever..." and later "You speak as if he would be the first King to gain this way. Grow up boy".
More importantly, however Loghain is not "general and can decide for whoever strategy he believes is the best". Loghain was second in command until he gave himself an impromptu promotion by leaving his commander to die waiting for reinforcements that never came.
The Couslands are dead or disgraced and Howe controls their teyrnir. Eamon is in a coma and Howe is the one who controls the North at this time. Loghain needs Howe on his side and politically he doesn't have a lot of options other than to make a deal with Howe.
I'll admit I'm not solid on the timing. Does Loghain make Howe his adviser before things blow up with the nobles, or is it just convenient timing that he's hired right after Teagan and the nobles make a fuss. I'll admit the titles and other rewards are a bit much, but the alternative for Loghain might be having Howe join the opposition.
When Cousland Warden talk to Loghain, there is no emotion whatsoever from Loghain regarding what happen to the Cousland Teyrneir, "The king talk to me about his promise...", there is no "i regret to hear what happen to Bryce and the Cousland", nothing that express shock or sympathy...hell Cousland Teyrneir is next to the kingship, and as a Teyrn himself, Loghain show NOTHING of concern
Loghain have planned it, the genocide of the Cousland ensure no one strong enough to oppose him in his quest to become the King of Ferelden. Why would Loghain taking Howe as "his right hand"? What is his position? He's not a king anyway.
The thing is, you can't really know that Loghain's gonna end up in Orlais. At "best", you know that becoming a Gray Warden might be a death sentence at that point, though you technically don't even know about the Ultimate Sacrifice, so even that part is iffy. And in Alistair's mind, Loghain dying as a Warden lets him die as a hero, and that's not something he deserves. You don't have to point out to Alistair that being conscripted into the Wardens is a punishment: he knows you see it that way, but that's not what he feels the Wardens are (even if he's wrong).
Of course, you can not point out to Alistair, that Loghain will become a GW in Orlais (that's player knowledge), but I guess, assuming, that you and maybe Alistair would be asked about his fate, should he survive the archdemon, is not that far fetched. Riordan did ask your opinion about Loghains fate at the Landsmeet. And if Alistair thinke, that Loghain dying as a GW is too clean for him, then dying at the LM as a hero in front of Fereldens nobility certainly is. At least, as a GW he probably would not have an audience to witness his honourable death.
And it's not the conscription, I see as punishement (most of my wardens go willingly with Duncan), it's the fact, that Loghain will be forgotten by most people and that, whatever he does, it will probably (hopefulyl) not bring him fame and honour.
When Cousland Warden talk to Loghain, there is no emotion whatsoever from Loghain regarding what happen to the Cousland Teyrneir, "The king talk to me about his promise...", there is no "i regret to hear what happen to Bryce and the Cousland", nothing that express shock or sympathy...hell Cousland Teyrneir is next to the kingship, and as a Teyrn himself, Loghain show NOTHING of concern
Is there any fereldan duty to care and love about good, kind Bryce?
Nope. My claim is "Loghain rewarding and trusting Howe after Howe's treason to his overlord is evidence that Howe did not take Loghain entirely by surprise with his move". That's one of the ways in which you are misusing post hoc. You're conflating "Is evidence" with "is proof positive".
Deserting your commander on the field of battle and fleeing without any engagement or a "so long sucker" note, would be a difficult case to defend at a court martial.
When things happen together without causal link that is called a "coincidence". The fact that coincidences happen is what makes post hoc a fallacy. So yes, when you claim the post hoc fallacy you are raising the possibility that these things happened by coincidence, that Howe happened to do something other than slaughtering the Couslands that Loghain liked so much that he ignored Howe being a mass murdering traitor and made Howe his new Best Friend Forever.
Howe had free access to his private chambers. He followed Howe's advice on multiple occasions. He gave Howe lordship over not just one but two of the nation's most major fiefdoms. He put Howe in charge of the capital.
Howe was not Ferelden's other most powerful noble. He was no more than midrange before Loghain decided to give him the aforementioned showers of wealth and honors. Even if he decided to buy Howe's support by affirming his right to the Cousland estate, he didn't have to also give him the vacant arldom of Denerim. He could have easily used that to buy another man's loyalty, one who didn't just murder his previous overlord. Loghain isn't holding his nose and dealing with the mass murderer at arms length. He likes Howe. He trusts Howe, more than he trusts Anora. He lets Howe take custody of valuable hostages, he trusts the finances of the biggest city in Ferelden to him, he gives Howe access to his private chambers, when Howe says "let's do deals with the assassins, the slavers and the goat molesters" Loghain nods. I expect he thinks Howe's a patriot. A man who can be relied upon to do the unfortunately necessary dirty work. LIke killing Bryce Cousland.
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