When Cousland Warden talk to Loghain, there is no emotion whatsoever from Loghain regarding what happen to the Cousland Teyrneir, "The king talk to me about his promise...", there is no "i regret to hear what happen to Bryce and the Cousland", nothing that express shock or sympathy...hell Cousland Teyrneir is next to the kingship, and as a Teyrn himself, Loghain show NOTHING of concern.
ugh so much I want to say but I'm ****** exhausted.
One thing I'll note though is that Loghain didn't "award" Howe any titles. Howe had taken them by force and had them in everything but name. They were already his. It's hard to award someone something they're already owning.
ugh so much I want to say but I'm ****** exhausted.
One thing I'll note though is that Loghain didn't "award" Howe any titles. Howe had taken them by force and had them in everything but name. They were already his. It's hard to award someone something they're already owning.
Yeah...that's grievously, howlingly wrong. Flemeth doesn't make a lot of direct declarative statements anyway but what she does say about Loghain is "That is a good question. Men's hearts hold secrets darker than any tainted creature. Perhaps he believes the Blight is an army he can outmanuever..." and later "You speak as if he would be the first King to gain this way. Grow up boy".
More importantly, however Loghain is not "general and can decide for whoever strategy he believes is the best". Loghain was second in command until he gave himself an impromptu promotion by leaving his commander to die waiting for reinforcements that never came.
And what you're doing is misrepresenting the fallacy as evidence. What you consider to be evidence is the fallacy. It's simply a false conclusion.
I see that this is an article of faith for you. But you are wrong. "Evidence" is not the same thing as "conclusion". Concluding that Loghain _must_ have been a conspirator before the fact based on that little evidence would be the logical fallacy. But that does not mean the evidence is not evidence.
There was a plan of battle, and Loghain engaging in the plan would have resulted in the loss of Ferelden's entire army, instead of just some of it. His retreat was not abandonment.
Exactly what do you base the claim that Ferelden's entire army would have been lost on? How do you know that?
Again, no one is claiming that there isn't a causal link, it's just not what you're claiming it to be. The causal link is that he needs support from the nobility, and Howe is literally the only noble he can turn to. And if you ever got the impression that Howe and Loghain were "BFFs" well, then I don't know what game you were playing.
Why is Howe the only noble he can turn to? What's the notable thing that Howe did that would prove to Loghain, "Yes, this is the one guy you trust to have your back?" And actually if he needs support from the nobility and Howe, is his only supporter in the nobility, then he has already lost before he started. But of course Howe isn't his only supporter.
Yes, he did. Still not evidence that he was involved in the Cousland massacre.
It wasn't supposed to be. It is however evidence that Loghain trusts Howe after Howe's betrayal and mass murder. You know, the exact evidence you claim next that I'm not providing that Loghain trusts Howe.
I see that this is an article of faith for you. But you are wrong. "Evidence" is not the same thing as "conclusion".
Is the following statement what you are claiming? "Loghain and Howe allied with each other after Howe murdered the Couslands therefore Loghain must have had foreknowledge that Howe was going to murder the Couslands."
No. I already said I wasn't claiming that.
Gaider's quote:
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider.
I don't have the original link as most of links people have provided have been deleted and only lead to the main forum, However if you type the first part of the quote and Gaider's name in google, this quote seems to be consistently linked to David Gaider on the matter of Loghain, Howe, and the Cousland massacre.
From what I get out of it, is that Loghain thought he had Howe under control but clearly did not and by then it was too late to break off from him.
As for Loghain abandoning Cailan. I believe that Loghain was being too paranoid in denying aid from Orlais. However, it's clear that Cailan brought them up in the first place because he knew Loghain would deny the aid so he can make a point that he was needed to fight on the front lines. This is in response to Loghain urging him not to fight in the front lines. In other words, no one is responsible for Cailan's death, but himself.
Gaider's quote:
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider.
I don't have the original link as most of links people have provided have been deleted and only lead to the main forum, However if you type the first part of the quote and Gaider's name in google, this quote seems to be consistently linked to David Gaider on the matter of Loghain, Howe, and the Cousland massacre.
From what I get out of it, is that Loghain thought he had Howe under control but clearly did not and by then it was too late to break off from him.
As for Loghain abandoning Cailan. I believe that Loghain was being too paranoid in denying aid from Orlais. However, it's clear that Cailan brought them up in the first place because he knew Loghain would deny the aid so he can make a point that he was needed to fight on the front lines. This is in response to Loghain urging him not to fight in the front lines. In other words, no one is responsible for Cailan's death, but himself.
Right. Loghain wasn't even at the battle. There was no job that he was being depended on to do. Really, he was in Denerim the whole time.
Oh, wait no. That's wrong. Loghain was there, he did have a job to do. He did desert the field of battle. And if he hadn't ended up in charge of everything afterward he would be facing execution.
Right. Loghain wasn't even at the battle. There was no job that he was being depended on to do. Really, he was in Denerim the whole time.
Oh, wait no. That's wrong. Loghain was there, he did have a job to do. He did desert the field of battle. And if he hadn't ended up in charge of everything afterward he would be facing execution.
What point are you trying to make? That Loghain should have done his part even if it would have been completely stupid of him to do so? I guess if your boss tells you to come to work in the middle of a Hurricane, you would head right on out the door.
What point are you trying to make? That Loghain should have done his part even if it would have been completely stupid of him to do so? I guess if your boss tells you to come to work in the middle of a Hurricane, you would head right on out the door.
Many, many men in militaries have been tried and executed for deciding their commanders were idiots, their orders were stupid and they were leaving. And rightly so, because following stupid orders is still better for the force's overall chance of success, than not following orders at all. Being in the military isn't like working at a convenience store. Other people's lives don't depend on Convenience Store Guy showing up for his stint behind the counter and he isn't subject to execution for letting them down. Yes, even if Loghain didn't like his odds, that isn't a sound basis under martial law to run away. People regularly have to go into combat against odds they don't like. And if Loghain had carried out an attack, taken his losses and then retreated when the battle was clearly lost rather than just retreating from the prospect of battle against a more powerful force, the Ferelden Civil War would have never happened, and the losses he took would have been more than compensated by the forces that would have come willingly to replace them.
Many, many men in militaries have been tried and executed for deciding their commanders were idiots, their orders were stupid and they were leaving. And rightly so, because following stupid orders is still better for the force's overall chance of success, than not following orders at all.
Ghosts of French soldiers who fell of Crecy and Poitiers, and Persians of Granicus and Issus, are slowly shaking their heads.
Many, many men in militaries have been tried and executed for deciding their commanders were idiots, their orders were stupid and they were leaving. And rightly so, because following stupid orders is still better for the force's overall chance of success, than not following orders at all. Being in the military isn't like working at a convenience store. Other people's lives don't depend on Convenience Store Guy showing up for his stint behind the counter and he isn't subject to execution for letting them down. Yes, even if Loghain didn't like his odds, that isn't a sound basis under martial law to run away. People regularly have to go into combat against odds they don't like. And if Loghain had carried out an attack, taken his losses and then retreated when the battle was clearly lost rather than just retreating from the prospect of battle against a more powerful force, the Ferelden Civil War would have never happened, and the losses he took would have been more than compensated by the forces that would have come willingly to replace them.
And there are many more generals who understood when it was necessary to retreat and have been far more successful at the end of the day than following some idiot to their death. It's probably not a good idea to compare some common soldier to that of a general who has far more tactical combat experience.
Why on earth should Loghain had charged in if he already figured that the battle was lost? What would be the point of that but to cause unneeded death?
Also, killing a superior officer for giving stupid orders or being an idiot, or just plan unlikable is actually not as uncommon as you think. Try looking up "Fragging" then come back and explain why dragging soldiers along and expecting them to keep following dumb orders blindly will lead to military success.
Also, it was not Loghain abandoning the fight that caused the Civil War. There were many factors involved that had nothing to do with Cailan. It was the fact that he and Anora were of common birth and Loghain was demanding the Banns support.
"The strongest reason for resistance was Loghain's act of demanding the banns' support. Both before and after the tyranny of the Orlesian occupation, Fereldan culture placed heavy emphasis on individual freedom. All freeholders held authority on their lands and no noble was expected to pledge loyalty without being convinced to do so. Ferelden held great pride in this contrast to the authoritarian rulership of Orlais, and Loghain's action was seen as an insult to the Ferelden he helped defend." http://dragonage.wik..._-_9:31_Dragon)
How dare he demand that nobles fight to save their country. 
And there are many more generals who understood when it was necessary to retreat and have been far more successful at the end of the day than following some idiot to their death.
No. There aren't. Loghain's stunt of abandoning half of the army to death to preserve his own command without even a token effort is the kind of thing that might seem smart, but it is devastating to morale.
Why on earth should Loghain had charged in if he already figured that the battle was lost? What would be the point of that but to cause unneeded death?
Well first of all, "figuring the battle will be lost" isn't at all the same thing as "knowing the battle has been lost". And honestly even a failed flanking manuever would still split the focus of the enemy and give the king and the wardens a way better chance to withdraw themselves and survive with at least part of their force. But of course that would not be something Loghain wanted.
No. There aren't. Loghain's stunt of abandoning half of the army to death to preserve his own command without even a token effort is the kind of thing that might seem smart, but it is devastating to morale.
Well first of all, "figuring the battle will be lost" isn't at all the same thing as "knowing the battle has been lost". And honestly even a failed flanking manuever would still split the focus of the enemy and give the king and the wardens a way better chance to withdraw themselves and survive with at least part of their force. But of course that would not be something Loghain wanted.
The beacon was lit late and how would a failed maneuver split the focus of a horde of hive minded creatures controlled by an archdemon?
To whose morale? The soldiers fighting with Cailan who were breaking rank and running according to Aveline and Carver Hawke? The way I see it, the biggest blow of morale is losing a Grey Warden, King, and Legendary hero in just one fight with the darkspawn.
The beacon was lit late and how would a failed maneuver split the focus of a horde of hive minded creatures controlled by an archdemon?
To the morale of the entire military and the public at large. The only thing worse than a just dumb commander it comes to keeping people's confidence is an erratic one. Would you be eager to sign up with a military commander when you weren't sure whether he was treacherous, crazy or just cowardly?
As for the beacon...who cares? Given that Loghain had the kind of omniscient all-encompassing comprehension of the battlefield that told him he would experience total failure before he even began to engage, the beacon was clearly superfluous. And either the attack splits the focus of the horde, or the attack succeeds. If they just ignored the attackers from the side then Loghain would tear them apart regardless of their numbers.
Truth is, we don't know how it would have turned out. Even Gaider never said it was a 'sure thing', lose or win. All you can do is speculate to the best of your impression of how things went down. Even Solas offers two different, but equally valid impressions of the battle as 'truth'.
Loghain's supporters argue the fight was unwinnable, his detractors argue that he didn't even try. And we are left with two sides who will never see eye to eye but argue endlessly and on either side of the issue.
IMO the fiasco came about from the failings of all three men involved. Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound who used Loghain's paranoia to push the issue and fight on the front lines. Loghain for failing to get enough intel to argue against the battle till they got more manpower and masterminding the destruction of the "Orlesian spies/Wardens" in their midst. And on Duncan for not revealing just how he knew it was a Blight as none of them seemed to be taking it seriously beyond just 'a large darkspawn excursion'. Hell, Loghain won't even admit it's a Blight till the second Landsmeet is called and the darkspawn have nearly swept over the whole country.
Is there any fereldan duty to care and love about good, kind Bryce?
Excuse you? Loghain is just as much "next to kingship" as Bryce Cousland, being a Teryn himself.
Isn't Bryce troop is part of the main army in Ostagar? So you're saying Loghain as a general of the army against Darkspawn DON'T CARE about the leader of the part of the main army is DEAD killed by Howe?
It must be a shocking news, as a stratgist he must be concern, but he don't care...BECAUSE HE KNOW IT ALREADY...he planned it.
He poisoned Arl Eamon and so Redcliffe troop halted, remember that Ser Donald say "the Arl get sick BEFORE the King die". He also planned Cousland genocide and so no one can oppose him. Should Bryce still live, do you think Bryce will shut up with what Loghain did betraying the king? If Arl Eamon is there, will Arl Eamon shut up?
To the morale of the entire military and the public at large. The only thing worse than a just dumb commander it comes to keeping people's confidence is an erratic one. Would you be eager to sign up with a military commander when you weren't sure whether he was treacherous, crazy or just cowardly?
I would sign up with a military commander who doesn't get his people killed for the sake of glory.
As for the beacon...who cares? Given that Loghain had the kind of omniscient all-encompassing comprehension of the battlefield that told him he would experience total failure before he even began to engage, the beacon was clearly superfluous. And either the attack splits the focus of the horde, or the attack succeeds. If they just ignored the attackers from the side then Loghain would tear them apart regardless of their numbers.
So its either he splits the horde or succeeds entirely? There is no third outcome? Like Loghain sends his soldiers in and they get swept up by the endless supply of darkspawn and die right beside Cailan and Duncan? Well, at least he would have tried. *shrug*
Loghain's supporters argue the fight was unwinnable,
I only argue that it was unwinnable due to Cailan's stupidity(Fighting int he front lines, not using the fort for defense, sending one volley of arrows, allowing the Mabari to lead the charge) and Duncan by using ignorance to drum up GW support. But I do agree that all three of them were at fault in their own way for what happened. Loghain is hardly an innocent lamb, but he certainly isn't a monster.
Truth is, we don't know how it would have turned out. Even Gaider never said it was a 'sure thing', lose or win. All you can do is speculate to the best of your impression of how things went down. Even Solas offers two different, but equally valid impressions of the battle as 'truth'.
Loghain's supporters argue the fight was unwinnable, his detractors argue that he didn't even try. And we are left with two sides who will never see eye to eye but argue endlessly and on either side of the issue.
IMO the fiasco came about from the failings of all three men involved. Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound who used Loghain's paranoia to push the issue and fight on the front lines. Loghain for failing to get enough intel to argue against the battle till they got more manpower and masterminding the destruction of the "Orlesian spies/Wardens" in their midst. And on Duncan for not revealing just how he knew it was a Blight as none of them seemed to be taking it seriously beyond just 'a large darkspawn excursion'. Hell, Loghain won't even admit it's a Blight till the second Landsmeet is called and the darkspawn have nearly swept over the whole country.
How come Loghain don't know it is a Blight, thinking it's just a "large Darkspawn raid" while he himslef running away from the battlefield with "the battle is surely lost, don't you see a huge Darkspawn army coming from the hill?" excuse?
How come Loghain don't know it is a Blight, thinking it's just a "large Darkspawn raid" while he himslef running away from the battlefield with "the battle is surely lost, don't you see a huge Darkspawn army coming from the hill?" excuse?
Didn't you play the game? He keeps insisting "This is no Blight" just "a large excursion of darkspawn". A Blight happens when an Archdemon awakens and leads the darkspawn on the surface in a locust like hive mind swarm. He insists "There have been no dragons spotted in the Wilds". From his perspective (and that of Cailan and the other people who don't have warden senses telling them differently) it's just a large army of darkspawn on the surface. Until the dragon is spotted, no one believes it is a Blight except for the wardens.
Even the PC Warden doesn't see the dragon itself (outside his dreams) till he goes into the deep roads in search of Branka/the Anvil.
Truth is, we don't know how it would have turned out. Even Gaider never said it was a 'sure thing', lose or win. All you can do is speculate to the best of your impression of how things went down. Even Solas offers two different, but equally valid impressions of the battle as 'truth'.
Loghain's supporters argue the fight was unwinnable, his detractors argue that he didn't even try. And we are left with two sides who will never see eye to eye but argue endlessly and on either side of the issue.
IMO the fiasco came about from the failings of all three men involved. Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound who used Loghain's paranoia to push the issue and fight on the front lines. Loghain for failing to get enough intel to argue against the battle till they got more manpower and masterminding the destruction of the "Orlesian spies/Wardens" in their midst. And on Duncan for not revealing just how he knew it was a Blight as none of them seemed to be taking it seriously beyond just 'a large darkspawn excursion'. Hell, Loghain won't even admit it's a Blight till the second Landsmeet is called and the darkspawn have nearly swept over the whole country.
You're wrong about Duncan. Nothing he says can convince Loghain, because Loghain is convinced that Duncan is an Orlesian agent. And convincing Cailan or not just doesn't matter. He'll approach the battle the same way either way.
So its either he splits the horde or succeeds entirely? There is no third outcome? Like Loghain sends his soldiers in and they get swept up by the endless supply of darkspawn and die right beside Cailan and Duncan? Well, at least he would have tried. *shrug*
That is not a third outcome. The horde IS split by that outcome. But yes I'm aware the mark of a great military leader is his eagerness to flee without a fight and abandon the rest of his force to be defeated in detail.
I only argue that it was unwinnable due to Cailan's stupidity(Fighting int he front lines, not using the fort for defense, sending one volley of arrows, allowing the Mabari to lead the charge) and Duncan by using ignorance to drum up GW support. But I do agree that all three of them were at fault in their own way for what happened. Loghain is hardly an innocent lamb, but he certainly isn't a monster.
That is of course nonsense. Just because they only showed one volley of arrows doesn't mean there was only one volley of arrows and Cailan did not design the tactics for the battle. Loghain did. There's no hint that Cailan did anything except follow the playbook and wait for the flanking attack that never came. Nor did Duncan have any secret information that would make this supposed unwinnable battle winnable. And even if Cailan was bungling the battle, Loghain wasn't there to see it. So the battle is unwinnable because Cailan is at the front lines? Reeeally? That's what makes it unwinnable? Rather than, say, splitting your forces in half and then having the other half just run away?
Because he loved Duncan and the Grey Wardens and holds Loghain responsible for their deaths and the death of his step brother.
Loghain fans HAVE to view the battle of Ostagar as doomed from the start (it’s the only way Loghain can’t be viewed as a traitor), but this is not so. The Ostagar Strategy wasn’t just sound, it was a proven military strategy that has worked time and again for a numerically inferior force to defeat a numerically superior force. It could have worked at Ostagar (emphasis on the word could)… was it 100% guaranteed? Of course not, but when has ANY military maneuver been 100% guaranteed? If commanders waited until they had 100% assurance they would win, there would have be about a three dozen military battles in all of human history.
BTW, isn’t Loghain’s reputation as the Hero of Riverdane garnered from his ability to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in the face of overwhelming odds? Just sayin’ i.e. becoming regent is NOT an option, victory over superior forces… option of BECOMING regent, suddenly its retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is in Ferelden’s best interest … one of these things is not like the other…
For the “Ostagar is death crowd,” put the control pad down for a bit and try some history instead of acquiring the next Modern Warfare achievement that deems you superfluously the title of military genius. See Hannibal at the Battle of Cannae; see the Battle of Salamis; see the Battle of Pharsalus; see Gettysburg - the Battle of Little Round Top; see Operation Desert Storm… and any number of other battles that have successfully employed the flank against superior numbers. The Flank, which was the key to the Ostagar battle plan.
Loghain doesn’t retreat because it’s military strategy. He retreats because (Joker Voice) “… it’s all part of the plan.”
Part of the Plan - Point one:
Replay the sequence, when he orders the retreat, even Ser Cauthrien is shocked. As the troops retreat behind him, his demeanor and glare are not the look of a defeated man who must retreat and hopes to fight another day to save his country… it’s the look of a conniving man whose power-hungry dreams have just become reality. He doesn’t tell Cauthrien we must do this to save Ferelden, he simply growls, do as I command.
Part of the Plan – Point Two:
In a few words, the insignificant fly on a rhino’s ass… Howe. Whether Loghain did or did not sanction the attack on Highever, it is ultimately only important in what it clearly implies, with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the head.
Howe attacks Highever, this would be like the Governor of Rhode Island (the smallest state in the union) attacking New York, while its militia is absent… and then not expecting the President to bring the brunt of the US Army down upon his head… or… even stupider, thinks his band can beat an Army? Sorry, no… just no.
When Warden Cousland and Duncan inform King Cailan of the attack on Highever, he vows to bring the brunt of his Army (the COMBINED Army of Ferelden VERSUS an Arling’s Army…. You make the call!) against Howe.
Yes, I am so sure Howe acted alone, has no knowledge of Cailan’s impending death and thinks he has a fighting chance against the Army of Ferelden…. Soooooo NOT. *blank stare*
On the eve of Howe’s attack on Highever, Cousland Warden talks with Fergus, who tells him things are going well in the south. There is no rational way Howe could believe Cailan is in imminent danger and that he can get away with attacking Highever. None.
It’s real simple. If Cailan survives, Howe is dead, there is no other possible outcome. The two cannot coexist after the attack on Highever. The die has been cast, it’s undeniable.
The one and only logical conclusion (certain fans are excused and not expected to accept logic) is that Howe already knows, Cailan will not be allowed to leave Ostagar alive. He attacks Highever because he knows Cailan is not going to survive the battles in the south. It is the only thing at even remotely makes sense. Period. End of discussion.
Once he is Regent, does Loghain prosecute Howe? He has no need to fight Howe’s troops (sorry Loghain fans, not going to let you use the civil war as an excuse), because Howe is right there in the scene with him and Anora. Loghain could have arrested him on the spot and put any number of his trusted lackey generals in charge of Amarathine, Highever and Denrim… he does not… why… because Howe IS one of his lackeys and has served his purpose. I do not recall the specifics of how Howe got Denerim, but it certainly appears to be payment for services rendered.
Loghain plotted with Howe and premeditated the killing of the king, it is the one and only way that realistically explains the attack on Highever. Maybe from a certain point of view this was needed. I would certainly respect the Loghain fan that sees him as a cutthroat who would do anything to protect Ferelden, but some of the BS excuses are beyond belief.
I say, if you like Loghain, embrace his actions, don’t waste your time trying to rationalize or excuse them.
There is a David Gaider post out there that Loghain fans cling to like the bible and declare its proof that Loghain didn’t plot the murder of Cailan. In numerous debates with Loghain fans, I have seen this post. The one thing kool-aid drinkers fail to acknowledge is that DG’s post is littered with WHAT IF this, or WHAT IF that, or WHAT IF the other thing… it is nothing more than a series of suppositions that some Loghainians view as definitive proof; DG never states in any way, shape or form that Loghain never murdered his own king, the grey wardens and the members of the army who fought with the king… he just repeatedly states… what if.
When you can play DGS (David Gaider Says) instead of DAO, I’ll take that post and others as canon, where Loghain is a knight in shining armor and his every selfless action is made with altruism in his heart. Unfortunately, for 6+ years now, you can only play DAO, which, with a microscopic amount of leeway, indicts him, at the very least, the murder of King Cailan. His alliance with Howe implies even more… coconspirator in the attack on Highever, either before or after the fact (wait for it… more absurd excuses…).
Yes, I know this may illicit a response, I say… flame on! Loghain fans will come up with some awesome ideas in response to this blasphemy against Jesus Christ Loghain, I’d just say, embrace him for the duplicitous, power-hungry madman he is, not what you want him to be. Loghain, charged with the premeditated murder of King Cailan, Duncan, the Grey Wardens with him and a host of Ferelden Army Regulars - Verdict: Guilty.
Alistair should detest him.
You're wrong about Duncan. Nothing he says can convince Loghain, because Loghain is convinced that Duncan is an Orlesian agent. And convincing Cailan or not just doesn't matter. He'll approach the battle the same way either way.
Odd argument from someone who believes that just trying should yield favorable results
That is not a third outcome. The horde IS split by that outcome. But yes I'm aware the mark of a great military leader is his eagerness to flee without a fight and abandon the rest of his force to be defeated in detail.
And you know this because...?
That is of course nonsense. Just because they only showed one volley of arrows doesn't mean there was only one volley of arrows and Cailan did not design the tactics for the battle. Loghain did. There's no hint that Cailan did anything except follow the playbook and wait for the flanking attack that never came. Nor did Duncan have any secret information that would make this supposed unwinnable battle winnable. And even if Cailan was bungling the battle, Loghain wasn't there to see it. So the battle is unwinnable because Cailan is at the front lines? Reeeally? That's what makes it unwinnable? Rather than, say, splitting your forces in half and then having the other half just run away?
I suppose we must also assume that Cailan didn't really order a bunch of dogs to lead the attack either, right? I guess it's better to simply headcanon that Cailan wasn't an incompetent boob. And remember that it was Cailan's playbook more than anything, because Loghain didn't even want him there in the first place, but Cailan was quick to remind him who was King, just to get his way.
As for Duncan, watch the vid I posted again. Duncan was going to say something yet stopped. I'm not saying he had some sort of secret military tactics, but he had the info about the Archdemon and as the GW and expert on Blights, he should have at least told Cailan that GWs sense the Archdemon's presence and that's how he knows it's a Blight, and its probably better to wait for reinforcements. So no, I don't believe one person alone is responsible for Ostagar. The others should have ...idk...tried? But wait, according to you the only person who should have tried on his end was Loghain, while Cailan and Duncan are exempt from trying in the face of failure. Duncan shouldn't try to talk some sense into Cailan, and Cailan shouldn't try to use his brain. Only Loghain should have tried, by running into a warm of darkspawn to save a soon to be dead King.
Anyway, done with the back and forth. I just wanted to post Gaider's quote proving that Loghain had no control over Howe and to show that Cailan ignored Loghain's warnings and used his paranoia to get into a position he was told wasn't good for him from the start, thus causing his own death.
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