505 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

 

 

The one and only logical conclusion (certain fans are excused and not expected to accept logic) is that Howe already knows, Cailan will not be allowed to leave Ostagar alive. He attacks Highever because he knows Cailan is not going to survive the battles in the south. It is the only thing at even remotely makes sense. Period. End of discussion.

 

 

Well there is an alternative there, but it's a minor one.  Howe doesn't know that Cailan is going to die.  But he does know that he can call upon Loghain's influence to back and defend him and keep Cailan from learning the details.  It might even work if Howe succeeds in making a clean sweep with no Cousland surviving to denounce him.  While a proper investigation would effortlessly uncover what happened, if Loghain takes over over the investigation, he can pin it on just about anyone.  Cailan's a nice boy but not exactly well informed.  

[Illegitimus]

 

 

Odd argument from someone who believes that just trying should yield favorable results

 

No I don't.  (Well except that it would have prevented the civil war by making it plausible that he did everything he could, which as it stands, he obviously didn't.)  As for Duncan he DID try to convince them that there was an archdemon and that they should wait for reinforcements.  But Cailan and Loghain were united against waiting for the Orlesians.  The only thing he was holding back was the precise mechanics of how Wardens sense the Archdemon, and doing that would have just caused the Wardens to be expelled for their questionable loyalty.  

 

 

 

And you know this because...?

 

Because that's what happens when a third force attacks from another direction.  Either you ignore them or you engage them.  There is no third option.  

 

 

 

 

I suppose we must also assume that Cailan didn't really order a bunch of dogs to lead the attack either, right? 

 

Sure he ordered the dogs to attack.  But it was always the plan for the dogs to attack.  I mean you talked to the Ash warrior and the Kennel Master and heard about how leaving the dogs out would be heresy, right?  It wasn't some last minute innovation out of nowhere by Cailan.  Duncan wasn't going "Hey, dogs?  Nobody said anything about dogs!"   That's how Ferelden fights.  Always.  That's why they're called the Dog Lords.  Cailan being a gigantic dork has nothing to do with it.  That was the plan as written in the first place.   Cailan's only input into the plan was "I insist on fighting side by side with my heroes in shiny armour."  The rest it he was perfectly content to leave to his intellectual better and that would have been a sound policy if he hadn't alienated his intellectual better.  

[Qis]

Didn't you play the game?  He keeps insisting "This is no Blight" just "a large excursion of darkspawn".  A Blight happens when an Archdemon awakens and leads the darkspawn on the surface in a locust like hive mind swarm.  He insists "There have been no dragons spotted in the Wilds".  From his perspective (and that of Cailan and the other people who don't have warden senses telling them differently) it's just a large army of darkspawn on the surface.  Until the dragon is spotted, no one believes it is a Blight except for the wardens.

Even the PC Warden doesn't see the dragon itself (outside his dreams) till he goes into the deep roads in search of Branka/the Anvil.

 

Grey Warden say it is a Blight, then it is a Blight, who else Loghain want to believe that it is a Blight?

 

PC Warden see the Archdemon right on during the Joining

[Hazegurl]

^No one outside the Wardens knew it was a Blight because Duncan never really confirmed it. Meaning, he never told anyone how he knew. The Wardens had been exiled for years and no one really trusted them.  It's no excuse, as I think everyone should have believed Duncan. However, Duncan didn't do a good job of pressing the matter.

[Qis]

^No one outside the Wardens knew it was a Blight because Duncan never really confirmed it. Meaning, he never told anyone how he knew. The Wardens had been exiled for years and no one really trusted them.  It's no excuse, as I think everyone should have believed Duncan. However, Duncan didn't do a good job of pressing the matter.

 

Every Wardens know it is a Blight because they can sense an Archdemon, it just that the Archdemon don't appear visibly yet. Even the PC Warden "see" the Arcdemon during the Joining.

 

It is just that it have been too long since the last Blight making everyone sceptical, but Loghain refuse to believe it for other matter, it is not that he don't believe it, but he want to take advantage of it and appear hero to Ferelden once more. He believe anyone can end the Blight, no need for Grey Warden.

 

That's why he planned it all, he let Howe genocide the Cousland, the most influential Teyrn, second to royalty in Ferelden, then poison Arl Eamon, Cailan's Uncle, let Cailan die...then try to usurp power as the Queen's Reagent, what else his motivation is other become a new ruler of Ferelden?

[Artona]

 

Isn't Bryce troop is part of the main army in Ostagar? So you're saying Loghain as a general of the army against Darkspawn DON'T CARE about the leader of the part of the main army is DEAD killed by Howe?

 

It must be a shocking news, as a stratgist he must be concern, but he don't care...BECAUSE HE KNOW IT ALREADY...he planned it.

 

He poisoned Arl Eamon and so Redcliffe troop halted, remember that Ser Donald say "the Arl get sick BEFORE the King die". He also planned Cousland genocide and so no one can oppose him. Should Bryce still live, do you think Bryce will shut up with what Loghain did betraying the king? If Arl Eamon is there, will Arl Eamon shut up?

 

I... I really don't know how to approach this. You are really saying that lack of reaction from Loghain proves that he planned it. Wow. Just... wow.
Isn't there at least tiny little possibility that Loghain is just awful, cold-hearted son of a gun, who has no warm feelings towards anyone besides his daughter? That he simply can be like that? And bulk of Cousland forces already left and reached Ostagar; wasn't that, like, Howe's plan? To attack when castle is empty?
And I find it highly annoying, that you call seizing a castle "genocide". It's not what that word means.

There are plenty of things that Loghain can be accused of - high treason, slave-trade, assassinations (or at least attemps); why accuse him of something that there is no proof of, basing only on his lack of concern?

 

 

When Warden Cousland and Duncan inform King Cailan of the attack on Highever, he vows to bring the brunt of his Army (the COMBINED Army of Ferelden VERSUS an Arling’s Army…. You make the call!) against Howe.

 

Yes, I am so sure Howe acted alone, has no knowledge of Cailan’s impending death and thinks he has a fighting chance against the Army of Ferelden…. Soooooo NOT.  *blank stare*

 

Firstly, Howe can believe that entire Cousland's house (beside Fergus) died out in attack and he'll be able to tell different story; even Duncan says something like that, when first meeting Cailan.
Secondly - sure, he played dangerous and risky game, but history knows more bizarre outcomes. Was Miracle of the House of Brandenburg any more probable? Maybe Howe's an idiot, but incredibly lucky idiot. Loghain still has rule "in dubio pro reo" in his favor.

 

 

Once he is Regent, does Loghain prosecute Howe?

 

He does not. Why, if Howe is useful? It's not proving that they were plotting together.

 

 

The one thing kool-aid drinkers fail to acknowledge is that DG’s post is littered with WHAT IF this, or WHAT IF that, or WHAT IF the other thing…

 

Now you are just being mean... :c

 

 

Alistair should detest him.

 

Maybe. But denying to help fight Archdemon is unforgivable, no matter what.

[Hazegurl]

Every Wardens know it is a Blight because they can sense an Archdemon, it just that the Archdemon don't appear visibly yet. Even the PC Warden "see" the Arcdemon during the Joining.

 

It is just that it have been too long since the last Blight making everyone sceptical, but Loghain refuse to believe it for other matter, it is not that he don't believe it, but he want to take advantage of it and appear hero to Ferelden once more. He believe anyone can end the Blight, no need for Grey Warden.

 

That's why he planned it all, he let Howe genocide the Cousland, the most influential Teyrn, second to royalty in Ferelden, then poison Arl Eamon, Cailan's Uncle, let Cailan die...then try to usurp power as the Queen's Reagent, what else his motivation is other become a new ruler of Ferelden?

Loghain does not have any sort of secret knowledge of Grey Wardens than anyone else. To claim that he knew differently about the Blight due to some sort of conspiracy is just ridiculous.  No one knew how Grey Wardens could tell if it were a Blight and no one even knew how Grey Wardens stopped Blights.  The PC doesn't even know until near the end of the game. Loghain simply did not want the Wardens from Orlais into his country, and he was ignorant about why Grey Wardens were needed.

 

He did not let Howe commit genocide of the Couslands, he simply did not punish him for it, and the reasons why is because he could not force the other Banns to stand with him during the Blight and Howe was willing to do so.

[Mykel54]

My conclusion is that Loghain´s retreat was the smart choice, given the circumstances. What he did wrong is everything after that - particularly his fear of orlesian wardens. After Ostagar a more sensible Loghain would have realised it´s really a Blight (or near one, just too many darkspawn) and called other nations for help, and not go "fereldan pride" and try to defeat it alone - even ignoring the wardens, whom he put in the "orlesian threat" category.

 

In DAI the demon taunts him about how he failed at governing Ferelden, not about his retreat, so he is aware that his mistakes were about how he underestimated the darkspawn threat and overestimated the orlesian threat.

[TEWR]

 

 

 I mean you talked to the Ash warrior and the Kennel Master and heard about how leaving the dogs out would be heresy, right?

 

Having the dogs fight beside you doesn't mean sending them out into the open. Christ there's a big difference between leaving them out of a battle entirely just in their kennels and using them appropriately.

 

The Ash Warrior also says "they fight by our side". They're better as support troops, not a vanguard. Especially against a Darkspawn army who are not going to be subject to the emotional elements that a regular army would be -- since when have we ever seen a Darkspawn show fear during a Blight?

[Monica21]

Having the dogs fight beside you doesn't mean sending them out into the open. Christ there's a big difference between leaving them out of a battle entirely just in their kennels and using them appropriately.
 
The Ash Warrior also says "they fight by our side". They're better as support troops, not a vanguard. Especially against a Darkspawn army who are not going to be subject to the emotional elements that a regular army would be -- since when have we ever seen a Darkspawn show fear during a Blight?

I think even the codex entries say they fight by your side. There's really nothing to suggest they'd send out hounds on their own until that cutscene, because I was like, "WHUUUUTTT?"

[Aren]

I was more sad for the death of those Mabari than the one of Duncan or Cailan to be honest,it was Cailan who killed them all not the darkpsawns.

[TEWR]

I think even the codex entries say they fight by your side. There's really nothing to suggest they'd send out hounds on their own until that cutscene, because I was like, "WHUUUUTTT?"

 

Well, they do say they can be a wave against an enemy line, but it's specifically talking about people who are prone to panic.

 

 

Dogs are an essential part of Fereldan culture, and no dog is more prized that the mabari. The breed is as old as myth, said to have been bred from the wolves who served Dane. Prized for their intelligence and loyalty, these dogs are more than mere weapons or status symbols: The hounds choose their masters, and pair with them for life. To be the master of a mabari anywhere in Ferelden is to be recognized instantly as a person of worth.

 

The mabari are an essential part of Fereldan military strategy. Trained hounds can easily pull knights from horseback or break lines of pikemen, and the sight and sound of a wave of war dogs, howling and snarling, has been known to cause panic among even the most hardened infantry soldiers.

 

—From Ferelden: Folklore and History by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

 

As we can see, the Darkspawn army is neither mounted or consisting of a line of pikemen, and anyone would've seen in battles with them that they do not show fear.

 

Now granted, there is a kaddis designed to be painted on vanguard Mabari.... but that's still not proper military strategy to send dogs out as the first wave against Darkspawn. And I'd argue in general. Pikemen and cavalry I can understand (though while I know more of military strategy then most on here, I can't comment on this tidbit). Darkspawn, nope.
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maybe. But denying to help fight Archdemon is unforgivable, no matter what.

I'm not sure about that. I don't know if Alistair's reasons to turning down Loghain's help are sufficient, but you can justify executing Loghain on the grounds that you're not sure he can be trusted after a year as his enemy. Though again, I don't think Alistair's thought that far ahead. I don't remember him making a single practical argument for killing Loghain. As far as I remember all he can see are the emotional arguments.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'm not sure about that. I don't know if Alistair's reasons to turning down Loghain's help are sufficient, but you can justify executing Loghain on the grounds that you're not sure he can be trusted after a year as his enemy. Though again, I don't think Alistair's thought that far ahead. I don't remember him making a single practical argument for killing Loghain. As far as I remember all he can see are the emotional arguments.

 

Actually not trusting the man who betrayed you, left you to die, framed and defamed you, poisoned and kidnapped his own people, allowed slavers to act in your country and hired assassins to hunt and kill you is a very practical and logical thing to do.

 

Alistair was very emotional, granted. However, he has no reason not to trust Loghain and as I've said before, if we need more wardens then there are plenty of more trustworthy and capable candidates to choose from.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually not trusting the man who betrayed you, left you to die, framed and defamed you, poisoned and kidnapped his own people, allowed slavers to act in your country and hired assassins to hunt and kill you is a very practical and logical thing to do.

 

Alistair was very emotional, granted. However, he has no reason not to trust Loghain and as I've said before, if we need more wardens then there are plenty of more trustworthy and capable candidates to choose from.

More capable I'm not so sure about. The guy does go up against the Warden one-on-one, if you choose to make him. That takes some skill. (And some guts, if you're playing mage or let Shale fight him in your Warden's place.) As for more trustworthy... well, again, my point wasn't that Alistair is wrong to distrust him, but that from all I can tell Alistair is refusing to even think about it closely enough to see the smart reasons not to recruit Loghain because he's too hung up on his hatred of the man. (Which I suppose does lead him to the same result a reasoned consideration of Loghain's merits would, so this is more relevant as a study of his character than anything else.)

[sylvanaerie]

More capable I'm not so sure about. The guy does go up against the Warden one-on-one, if you choose to make him. That takes some skill. (And some guts, if you're playing mage or let Shale fight him in your Warden's place.) As for more trustworthy... well, again, my point wasn't that Alistair is wrong to distrust him, but that from all I can tell Alistair is refusing to even think about it closely enough to see the smart reasons not to recruit Loghain because he's too hung up on his hatred of the man. (Which I suppose does lead him to the same result a reasoned consideration of Loghain's merits would, so this is more relevant as a study of his character than anything else.)

 

It all boils down to a matter of trust for me.  Even on games I think I may have recruited him when i began, I get to the Alienage and I just want to kill him with extreme prejudice.  That's picking on the most vulnerable of Ferelden's citizens, who have no one to defend them, which makes him come off as an untrustworthy tyrant to me and usually ensures his death in the Landsmeet.

 

Certainly there are others more capable and trustworthy than Loghain.  You've traveled the past year with a handful of them yourself.  Loghain has proven effective against his human enemies, but seems to lack an understanding of darkspawn themselves since he's failed so miserably at dealing with that problem.

[dragonflight288]

It all boils down to a matter of trust for me. Even on games I think I may have recruited him when i began, I get to the Alienage and I just want to kill him with extreme prejudice. That's picking on the most vulnerable of Ferelden's citizens, who have no one to defend them, which makes him come off as an untrustworthy tyrant to me and usually ensures his death in the Landsmeet.

Certainly there are others more capable and trustworthy than Loghain. You've traveled the past year with a handful of them yourself. Loghain has proven effective against his human enemies, but seems to lack an understanding of darkspawn themselves since he's failed so miserably at dealing with that problem.

Would you say an Antivan crow, Qunari spy, Orlesian bard and Morrigan each are trustworthy?

[Elhanan]

Would you say an Antivan crow, Qunari spy, Orlesian bard and Morrigan each are trustworthy?

Not each on their own perhaps, but add in others (eg; Wynne, Alistair, noble torture victim, Elven spy in Redcliffe, etc), plus what may be considered personal testimony as the Warden, the whole is fairly substantial. I have no qualms over granting the max justice to Loghain, though sometimes it may be delayed to soften the event for his daughter.

[Artona]

I'm not sure about that. I don't know if Alistair's reasons to turning down Loghain's help are sufficient, but you can justify executing Loghain on the grounds that you're not sure he can be trusted after a year as his enemy. Though again, I don't think Alistair's thought that far ahead. I don't remember him making a single practical argument for killing Loghain. As far as I remember all he can see are the emotional arguments.

 

I'm not saying that killing Loghain is unreasonable, or there are no arguments for doing that; however, as you mentioned, Alistair doesn't use arguments. But even if he did, abandoning cause of Wardens in the middle of Blight is still impossible to justify. Or, to put it differently, foul actions of PC (if we consider sparing Loghain as such) doesn't relieve him from his duties. 

[sylvanaerie]

Would you say an Antivan crow, Qunari spy, Orlesian bard and Morrigan each are trustworthy?

 

There is another thread on the boards that asks "Who would you recruit...".  Check out the replies there.

 

At the time of recruitment without metagaming: 

 

Zevran I'd either kill on the spot or leave for the Crows.  Sten can rot in that cage till he's darkspawn kibble--and after several games hearing about how my female Surana shouldn't be fighting but be crippled, blinded and had her tongue ripped out, he can stay in there.  Oghren has spent the past (five?) years buried in a bottle in Orzammar and is a drunken berserker.  Like that's a resume for careful consideration?

 

As for the other two, one you don't know is an Orlesian bard when recruited. The other is the PC's only means to navigate out of the swamp avoiding the main body of the horde, so becomes a 'necessary evil'.  And neither is a threat to the PC when recruited.  Neither has expended any energy on trying to get you killed.  Leliana in fact, tries to get you to resolve things peacefully with Loghain's men in the tavern.

 

Loghain is hardly needed (his input on war tactics is neither called for--since the PC is the leader of the armies--nor his fighting skills--Alistair, the Warden or your chosen champion trounces him on the landsmeet floor).  He, however, is a threat to the PC and has been for the past year he's spent trying to kill you.

That all of them prove trustworthy after recruitment is beside the point.  If left to my own devices, I'd recruit only Wynne and Dog (since you get Alistair by default).  One because she's a dedicated healer and the other because his imprinted loyalty is beyond question.

 

My point is, by the time he's recruited, there are other candidates who would be more trustworthy and battle tested than an old has been who's paranoia/hostility makes him want to plant a dagger in your back.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm not saying that killing Loghain is unreasonable, or there are no arguments for doing that; however, as you mentioned, Alistair doesn't use arguments. But even if he did, abandoning cause of Wardens in the middle of Blight is still impossible to justify. Or, to put it differently, foul actions of PC (if we consider sparing Loghain as such) doesn't relieve him from his duties. 

Oh, my apologies for mistaking your point. Yeah, this is a harder one to argue against.

 

 

Not each on their own perhaps, but add in others (eg; Wynne, Alistair, noble torture victim, Elven spy in Redcliffe, etc), plus what may be considered personal testimony as the Warden, the whole is fairly substantial. I have no qualms over granting the max justice to Loghain, though sometimes it may be delayed to soften the event for his daughter.

A: That wasn't his point. His point was the one Sylvanaerie was arguing against. (Though I'd argue that it's not a good reason to let one more person who might kill you in your sleep into your camp even if you don't play the Warden she describes.)

B: A whole bunch of unreliable witnesses doesn't really add up to a good case. Actually, a whole bunch of seemingly-reliable witnesses doesn't add up to as good a case as you'd think. Eyewitnesses are about the weakest form of evidence you're still allowed to give in a criminal case irl. And for that matter Wynne doesn't even successfully defend her arguments to Loghain himself. For that matter the Tortured Noble (though he serves as evidence of Loghain allowing crimes) can't directly testify that Loghain quit the field unjustifiably. All he can say is that one of Loghain's men had doubts, and that that man has since vanished. And the elven spy doesn't know a damn thing about Ostagar; he can testify that someone claiming to work for the regent's right hand wanted a spy in Redcliffe, which frankly is not half as damning as the things Jowan and Irminric can testify to. (Though neither of them know a damn thing about Ostagar either.) As for Alistair...

C: What do you mean "personal testimony as the Warden?" Are you talking about the things you directly observe in-game? Because those observations include a column of darkspawn stretching towards the horizon and Alistair saying something immediately before the beacon is lit that leads one to wonder if the battle is winnable. Are you talking about the PC trying to take down Loghain? You can ask to be taken to him in Dane's Refuge, as I recall. If all the possible Heroes Of Ferelden wind up taking him down, it's because he doesn't give any of them any other choice whether or not they'd take it.

 

D: One thing I have to concede is that you're justified in wanting Loghain taken down. Between his complete failure as a politician and his actual crimes of slavery and poisoning Eamon, there's reasons to depose him regardless of your position on Ostagar. And between those actual crimes and the fact that the only other option anyone floats is letting him live in the camp you sleep in, there's reasons to kill him. But those reasons are separate from one's opinion on Ostagar. That he commits actual crimes doesn't mean he'd be willing to scheme to kill a man he helped raise and who's married to his daughter.

[dragonflight288]

There is another thread on the boards that asks "Who would you recruit...".  Check out the replies there.

 

At the time of recruitment without metagaming: 

 

Zevran I'd either kill on the spot or leave for the Crows.  Sten can rot in that cage till he's darkspawn kibble--and after several games hearing about how my female Surana shouldn't be fighting but be crippled, blinded and had her tongue ripped out, he can stay in there.  Oghren has spent the past (five?) years buried in a bottle in Orzammar and is a drunken berserker.  Like that's a resume for careful consideration?

 

As for the other two, one you don't know is an Orlesian bard when recruited. The other is the PC's only means to navigate out of the swamp avoiding the main body of the horde, so becomes a 'necessary evil'.  And neither is a threat to the PC when recruited.  Neither has expended any energy on trying to get you killed.  Leliana in fact, tries to get you to resolve things peacefully with Loghain's men in the tavern.

 

Loghain is hardly needed (his input on war tactics is neither called for--since the PC is the leader of the armies--nor his fighting skills--Alistair, the Warden or your chosen champion trounces him on the landsmeet floor).  He, however, is a threat to the PC and has been for the past year he's spent trying to kill you.

That all of them prove trustworthy after recruitment is beside the point.  If left to my own devices, I'd recruit only Wynne and Dog (since you get Alistair by default).  One because she's a dedicated healer and the other because his imprinted loyalty is beyond question.

 

My point is, by the time he's recruited, there are other candidates who would be more trustworthy and battle tested than an old has been who's paranoia/hostility makes him want to plant a dagger in your back.

 

Fair enough. 

[Elhanan]

As the Landsmeet indicates, that event is not about Ostegar, so no mention is required. But I personally hold him responsible for it. But as the Warden has enough to warrant punishment on others matters, one death sentence is enough for me; immediately or later.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As the Landsmeet indicates, that event is not about Ostegar, so no mention is required. But I personally hold him responsible for it. But as the Warden has enough to warrant punishment on others matters, one death sentence is enough for me; immediately or later.

Well, again: it's not like you don't have enough for that.

[dragonflight288]

As the Landsmeet indicates, that event is not about Ostegar, so no mention is required. But I personally hold him responsible for it. But as the Warden has enough to warrant punishment on others matters, one death sentence is enough for me; immediately or later.

 

Well, again: it's not like you don't have enough for that.

 

Yup.