505 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

The first time I was romancing Alistair, and didn't even tried the option "let's spare Loghain" to see Alistair's reaction, because I didn't want my romance to end like this. So I executed Loghain, but I think that if I had seen Alistair's childish reaction ("I'm abandonning you because you spared that guy! or i'll become king just to have him killed! or I will abandon you just before the final battle, like a coward, escaping my duties as a grey warden, and leaving YOU sacrifice against the archdemon")

If I had seen THAT, I would have spared Loghain. Seriously, Alistair, abandoning your loved one just before the final battle and let her sacrifice (ok, there are other ways but he doesn't know about it) just because you want revenge on one guy?

He should react "ok yes conscript him and make him sacrifice against the archdemon, like this everyone's happy, good riddance". But no, he leaves you anyway. He is the most selfish of all.

So now I'm playing again and I will definitly spare Loghain's life and kick Alistair out of the party. I like Alistair but I really don't like how he abandons you like a coward if you choose to spare Loghain, even if it's to make him sacrifice just after against the Archdemon.

You and I are very different on this, I suppose.

I mean, I don't agree with Alistair's behavior there but I don't hate the guy for it... lol.

[Vanalia]

Well I don't hate him, I really like Alistair. But when you think about it, he is clearly letting YOU sacrifice against the Archdemon, right? and leaving, just like this?

 

He should be happy that we conscript Loghain, because like this we can send him instead of us to sacrifice against the Archdemon.

 

I totally understand why Alistair is angry, why he doesn't want to have Loghain as a brother-in-arms, but I regret that the choice we have is "everything or nothing" "kill him or I leave you". It means that his blind hate for Loghain is stronger than the love he has for the romanced warden.

 

(if you have a low approval with Alistair and no romance, I can understand that he leaves, even if he STILL avoids his duty as a warden and leaves you in the ****)

 

(They should have put an evil choice where you could romance Loghain after Alistair dumps you, then there would be a real reason why Alistair spends years being a drunk pathetic guy spending his days in a tavern  ) you know, the "evil path".

[DebatableBubble]

To be fair, at the time of the Landsmeet, neither the Warden nor Alistair know what's involved in killing the Archdemon. 

[Mike3207]

To be fair, at the time of the Landsmeet, neither the Warden nor Alistair know what's involved in killing the Archdemon. 

They don't know the specifics but it's common knowledge that Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon. It can't be that far of a stretch that you should bring all the Wardens you possibly can to deal with the Archdemon. It's really one of the things that really bothered Loghain about the Wardens-the secrecy they have about things that should be known in  time of Blight.

[Xetykins]

Knowing the specifics or not. They certainly don't know that they needed to die to kill an archdemon. Specially dying and totally obliterating your soul. For a religious warden, that's kind of a heaven and earth big deal.

It does not matter what religion or race or cast you are from, annihilating your soul is enuff that the Wardens has warrant for their secrecy.

Well I don't hate him, I really like Alistair. But when you think about it, he is clearly letting YOU sacrifice against the Archdemon, right? and leaving, just like this?

First, he did not know that any sacrificing of soul annihilating magnitude was needed. Second- If you kept him, he won't let you sacrifice yourself for ANYTHING even if you're just friends. This power is in your hands

[sylvanaerie]

Well I don't hate him, I really like Alistair. But when you think about it, he is clearly letting YOU sacrifice against the Archdemon, right? and leaving, just like this?

 

He should be happy that we conscript Loghain, because like this we can send him instead of us to sacrifice against the Archdemon.

 

I totally understand why Alistair is angry, why he doesn't want to have Loghain as a brother-in-arms, but I regret that the choice we have is "everything or nothing" "kill him or I leave you". It means that his blind hate for Loghain is stronger than the love he has for the romanced warden.

 

(if you have a low approval with Alistair and no romance, I can understand that he leaves, even if he STILL avoids his duty as a warden and leaves you in the ****)

 

(They should have put an evil choice where you could romance Loghain after Alistair dumps you, then there would be a real reason why Alistair spends years being a drunk pathetic guy spending his days in a tavern  ) you know, the "evil path".

 

He was written this way to be human.  There comes a 'breaking point' for people, where no matter what you do, there's no convincing them of your PoV.  For Alistair it's Loghain.  In his mind you are choosing Loghain over him, betraying him.  From his PoV, he can't understand why someone he loves would choose another man over him, and of all people it's the man who's spent the entire game trying to kill you and hindered your efforts to deal with the Blight.  And if he loves you, when you reach the Archdemon and he knows you will die, he won't let you sacrifice yourself, you can't talk him into it.  At all.  So he's not 'abandoning you to die' to the archdemon, he's just leaving you since you chose Loghain (the man he blames for the loss of the only family, the only father, he's ever known) over him.  A stupid move he later regrets immensely, but we don't always know what's best for us when we do things.  This, makes him very 'human'.

 

If you were able to 'talk him down' or persuade him, that would be a cheesy maneuver relegating him to just stupid programming.  "Well I can walk all over his character, he does whatever I want, whenever I want".  Now granted he is an NPC ai in a game program not a human, but that would be serious immersion blowing for me if he was that easy to convince to just 'suck it up, buttercup'.  One of the aspects of SWTOR I dislike is the companions in that can gain massive amounts of disapproval but never leave the PC's.  In fact, you can be a right bastard in game, pass out gifts and they love you for it.  Makes them seem a lot less like real people and more like ai's.

 

The wardens keep secrets, even from each other.  At the time of the Landsmeet, Alistair doesn't know that killing the AD requires a sacrifice.  Neither does your warden.  You just know you need Grey Wardens.  One old man (who's shown the entire game to be an untrustworthy man who's been trying to kill you and Alistair and incompetent when it comes to darkspawn) isn't going to make that much of a difference against the Archdemon.  I'm surprised that he accepts being a warden and doesn't try to kill those who recruited him.  Loghain doesn't know that it requires a sacrifice, so he spends most of the Blight trying to kill you and keep out all the other wardens.  I can't blame either of them for something they don't know, even if it's common knowledge you need grey wardens to kill an archdemon, neither of them know why.  Blaming Alistair for that and not Loghain is applying a nasty double standard.

 

And romance Loghain?  I'd sooner kiss a wookie

[Xetykins]

 
And romance Loghain?  I'd sooner kiss a wookie

Hey now, wookies are cute

[sylvanaerie]

Hey now, wookies are cute

 

hehe definitely cuter than Loghain 

[Vanalia]

I would definitly romance Loghain, maybe fanfics and the Stolen Thrones influenced me too much, haha   I mean, it would be really funny to try to break his defenses and pass through his distrust and the wall he built around his heart. It is a challenge to tame him. (and he seems a lot nicer in DA:I when you meet him) in the book about the world of Thedas, you can read very sweet things about his family life, how protective and loving he was for his little daughter or romantic things he could do for his wife (the roses story, aww).

 

 

Ok so maybe Alistair didn't know about the "sacrifice your soul" story, BUT you don't need to be a genius to know that a sacrifice doesn't always mean "sacrifice your soul" but even just "try the fight the archdemon and die trying", you see what I mean? if the Grey wardens are the only ones who can kill the Archedemon, you need as many wardens you can gather to fight and try to kill him, because many of them may die during the battle.

 

So yes, Alistair leaving feels like being abandonned juts before the final battle. Just because he's too proud to fight in the same "guild" as a guy he hates (I understand why he hates him, but still, he could think that Loghain may be more useful dying killing darkspawn or the archedemon than dying in the middle of the hall).

 

 

 

A stupid move he later regrets immensely, 

You mean if the warden dies? because when you meet the drunk Alistair or Alistair King in DA2, he doesn't seem to regret... the only thing he regrets is that "Loghain is still alive"...

[sylvanaerie]

Firstly, it's not 'all of the sudden'... Alistair is quite vocal in his dialogue throughout the game regarding the need to hold Loghain accountable.

 

He strongly believes (whether correctly or not) that Loghain leaving the field played a large role in the defeat at Ostagar, and led directly to the deaths of  Duncan, the rest of the Fereldan Grey Wardens, and Cailan.

 

And no, you can't really talk him down, not on that. It's Alistair or Loghain.

 

For the good explanation of Alistair's POV directly from the man who wrote Alistair, I'll point you to this post (and the others by Mr Gaider in that thread).

 

(And a caveat: while I'm not a 'lore master' I do think I have a fair understanding of Alistair as a character.)

 

 

I would definitly romance Loghain, maybe fanfics and the Stolen Thrones influenced me too much, haha   I mean, it would be really funny to try to break his defenses and pass through his distrust and the wall he built around his heart. It is a challenge to tame him. (and he seems a lot nicer in DA:I when you meet him) in the book about the world of Thedas, you can read very sweet things about his family life, how protective and loving he was for his little daughter or romantic things he could do for his wife (the roses story, aww).

 

 

Ok so maybe Alistair didn't know about the "sacrifice your soul" story, BUT you don't need to be a genius to know that a sacrifice doesn't always mean "sacrifice your soul" but even just "try the fight the archdemon and die trying", you see what I mean? if the Grey wardens are the only ones who can kill the Archedemon, you need as many wardens you can gather to fight and try to kill him, because many of them may die during the battle.

 

So yes, Alistair leaving feels like being abandonned juts before the final battle. Just because he's too proud to fight in the same "guild" as a guy he hates (I understand why he hates him, but still, he could think that Loghain may be more useful dying killing darkspawn or the archedemon than dying in the middle of the hall).

 

You mean if the warden dies? because when you meet the drunk Alistair or Alistair King in DA2, he doesn't seem to regret... the only thing he regrets is that "Loghain is still alive"...

 

In the post theskymoves linked above (I quoted so you can get to the link) where Gaider talks about Alistair and why he feels like he does, what happens to him after etc.  Gaider always said Alistair regretted leaving the fight right before that final battle.  Whether you see that in his DA2 appearance or not, it's quite evident to me that behind all that booze and anger, this is a man who's biggest hatred is turned on himself.  The drink is symptomatic of this as well.

 

It's a regret for leaving.  Whether the Warden dies or not, that bridge was burned and the friendship was over that day.  *Edit* I am unsure what his reaction is to a former lover either dying or not dying after recruiting Loghain, I've only been able to recruit him once on a Cousland who never got Alistair's approval past neutral.

  

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to appreciate the nuances of a character.

 

Alistair the King (even if you recruit Loghain) never walked out, you made him king and he was removed from your group, beyond his control.

 

Also, I think there was an old mod where you can romance Loghain available on the project boards of the old BSN.  I am unsure of how detailed it was or even if it was finished, if you want to look into it.  I only know of it, have never used it.

[Vanalia]

I have DA:O on PS3 so I cannot use mods anyway, but when I want a romance, I mean an official one, not a little mod allowing you to kiss the character you want of having him come to your tent  a romance with Loghain would be interesting for all the dialogue and the way he could change his mind about you (and you about him), etc.

 

Ah, ok, thanks for the link, I didn't know what Gaider wrote about Alistair's regrets. He must be even more angry against himself if the warden dies...

 

And I don't think Alistair should just agree with every decision the warden makes, no, of course disagreeing is more "human". But he could disagree without completely leaving the team, and be angry after you when you want to talk to him afterwards, and only stay because of his duty as a warden and not because he agrees with your choice. It would work because he's bond to his duty as a warden.

 

But I also think that yes, some characters should leave if they hate you too much and have no reason anymore to stay with you (I think that Wynne leaves if you spoil the ashes of Andraste).

[sylvanaerie]

I have DA:O on PS3 so I cannot use mods anyway, but when I want a romance, I mean an official one, not a little mod allowing you to kiss the character you want of having him come to your tent  a romance with Loghain would be interesting for all the dialogue and the way he could change his mind about you (and you about him), etc.

 

Ah, ok, thanks for the link, I didn't know what Gaider wrote about Alistair's regrets. He must be even more angry against himself if the warden dies...

 

And I don't think Alistair should just agree with every decision the warden makes, no, of course disagreeing is more "human". But he could disagree without completely leaving the team, and be angry after you when you want to talk to him afterwards, and only stay because of his duty as a warden and not because he agrees with your choice. It would work because he's bond to his duty as a warden.

 

But I also think that yes, some characters should leave if they hate you too much and have no reason anymore to stay with you (I think that Wynne leaves if you spoil the ashes of Andraste).

 

Yes.  

 

Leliana can be talked into staying as long as you don't take her with you, but the combo of defilement/blood magic in the destruction of the ashes is Wynne's breaking point.  She leaves regardless.

Shale leaves you if you side with Branka at the Forge, though I think if you lie to her back at camp about it, she falls for it (I'm unsure of that).  Zevran leaves you if you don't have his approval high enough (it doesn't have to be very high) when you encounter Taliesen.  Sten can be kicked out in Haven if his approval isn't high.  I've never been able to kick out Oghren, but I have seen it on Utube. 

Dog is the only one who stays regardless I think?

[Vanalia]

Dog is the best friend ever  I wonder if you can have disapproval with him?

[sylvanaerie]

Dog is the best friend ever  I wonder if you can have disapproval with him?

No, no matter what you do in game, Dog is locked on "High approval/Love".  Kind of like a real dog.

[Illegitimus]

Dog is the best friend ever  I wonder if you can have disapproval with him?

 

Only by inflicting the cone on him.  

[Mike3207]

If you're really interested in the Loghain romances, I'd rec the Arsinoe stories on fanfiction. It'll take you 6 months to a year to go through them, but it's well worth it. I imagine most Loghain romance stories  are with female Couslands, I rarely see one with another Origin.

[Vanalia]

Female Cousland is usually my canon Warden so that's fine. I've read some fanfictions already. If you have link to specific fanfictions you liked, don't hesitate to post them in the "Loghain appreciation thread"

[Huntress]

Loghain is a traitor, he betrayed the king and the wardens. then He blamed what happened in Ostagar on the Wardens and demands Ferelden's nobility submit to his rule. He is the cause ferelden civil. he deserve death.

[Dai Grepher]

Maybe one of the lore masters can help me out. I'm not totally sure I caught the entirety of Alistair's reason for wanting Loghain murdered at the Landsmeet. Is it to do with the fact he sent assassins after the surviving Grey Wardens, or does Alistair totally blame Loghain for Duncan dying at Ostagar?

 

I'm having a hard time in my current playthrough trying to decide what to do with Loghain. I kind of want to spare him, because I think defeating him in single combat kind of granted him a moment of clarity, and I actually agree with Riordan that he could serve the Wardens. But at the same time, my Warden is romancing Alistair, and there doesn't seem to be any way to talk Alistair out of a giant hissy fit if I do decide to spare him. 

 

It's a tough situation. It would be easier if I understand why Alistair is so blood thirsty all of a sudden.

 

Your understanding won't make the game choice any different, I assure you.

 

Alistair isn't so hung up on wanting Loghain dead, in fact he will walk away from it, the main problem he has is with the idea that Loghain join the Wardens. That's what forces him to grab for the crown, and it's what forces him to leave the Wardens. Sure he says he wants to be king to see Loghain get justice, but that is just being king. That isn't walking away entirely. A hardened Alistair will allow Loghain to live, even if king. The reason is because when he's hardened he no longer clings to the Wardens as something honorable and grand to act as his crutch.

 

But you are right that he thinks Loghain killed Duncan. If you side against him and take Loghain he states, "Now your siding with the man who killed Duncan".
 

[Vanalia]

 

 

But you are right that he thinks Loghain killed Duncan. If you side against him and take Loghain he states, "Now your siding with the man who killed Duncan".
 

 

Even if, when you think of it, it's more Cailan who killed Duncan, because he insisted on fighting a battle already lost just because he wanted to "play to war" and have the same reputation as his father. It is impossible to say that if Loghain had stayed, the army and Cailan would have survived. They certainly would have all died anyway.

Even if physically it's the ogre who killed Duncan, of course 

[sylvanaerie]

Even if, when you think of it, it's more Cailan who killed Duncan, because he insisted on fighting a battle already lost just because he wanted to "play to war" and have the same reputation as his father. It is impossible to say that if Loghain had stayed, the army and Cailan would have survived. They certainly would have all died anyway.

Even if physically it's the ogre who killed Duncan, of course 

It's all three of them actually.  Loghain for underestimating the enemy and not letting in additional wardens to fight.  Cailan for being an idiot gloryhound and goading Loghain into the fight in the first place.  And Duncan for not telling at least Cailan and Loghain exactly why he knew it was a Blight (he could sense the Archdemon) and what role the wardens must play in it.  I get why he doesn't on an intellectual level, that it would reveal too much of the lore's secrets and kind of spoiler the rest of the game for the player, but still it could have been done off camera, or in an oblique way without relying on legends Loghain put no stock in.

 

So I think it's all three, not just one of them, and all for different reasons.

[Vanalia]

Yes, unfortunately Loghain is the only one left alive, so the two others are seen as heroes who made no mistakes, and the survivor is seen as the only one responsible

[Xetykins]

Yes, unfortunately Loghain is the only one left alive, so the two others are seen as heroes who made no mistakes, and the survivor is seen as the only one responsible

Well I highly doubt Duncan and Cailan are going to start selling Ferelden citizens to slavery nor send assassins and soldiers to kill the wardens or start a civil war or go buddy buddy with Howe had they lived

His biggest mistake was what he did after Ostagar.
That's when he lost the Hero status the most.

And I don't know about seeing Cailan and Duncan as heroes. Did I miss that somewhere?

[Vanalia]

Well, in the mind of people, Cailan is the King who was brave and has been betrayed by his traitor-general, and Duncan (for Alistair for example) is a hero who died with honor.

No one seem to blame them for anything. Except Loghain.

 

I think that for the people of Ferelden, Loghain lost his honor at Ostagar, not because of the things he did after. When the characters in the game blame him for something or insult him, it's 90% about the retreat at Ostagar.

[Xetykins]

Well, in the mind of people, Cailan is the King who was brave and has been betrayed by his traitor-general, and Duncan (for Alistair for example) is a hero who died with honor.
No one seem to blame them for anything. Except Loghain.
 
I think that for the people of Ferelden, Loghain lost his honor at Ostagar, not because of the things he did after. When the characters in the game blame him for something or insult him, it's 90% about the retreat at Ostagar.

Maybe, but his actions AFTERWARDS with the regency and civil war kinda solidified that perception of him in the eyes of the people.