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[Aren]

Would you say an Antivan crow, Qunari spy, Orlesian bard and Morrigan each are trustworthy?

They aren't anymore trustworthy than Loghain to me.

-I spared Zevran because i don't waste resources, but he not only tried to kill the protagonist but he admit that he will follow you to protect himself from the crows

-Sten killed children and a family not trustworthy but i recruited him.

-Morrigan was no different than Loghain when it come to the Alienage, she would gladly support slavery or the sacrifice of innocents for a benefit.

-Leliana is trustworthy to me ,her past as a bard have nothing to do with what she was in DAO, being in a cloister for 1 year make impossible to believe that she is up to something.

Anyway the only valid and potential GW was Oghren.

[SgtSteel91]

Do you think a max approval Alistair and a Warden who spares Loghain could still be friends? Or be able to repair their friendship eventually?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Do you think a max approval Alistair and a Warden who spares Loghain could still be friends? Or be able to repair their friendship eventually?

As early as Awakening, Alistair is nostalgic for adventuring with the Warden regardless of whether or not you spared Loghain. So, maybe.

[sylvanaerie]

As early as Awakening, Alistair is nostalgic for adventuring with the Warden regardless of whether or not you spared Loghain. So, maybe.

 

And 7 years later when speaking to Hawke, he's still bitter about Loghain.  

 

Think of the context in which he's speaking when it's said.  Don't confuse nostalgia and a desire to not having to be king with all its attendant concerns/worries with any chance in hell that he misses the warden him/herself.  

Do I think they can repair the friendship?  No.  That bridge has been burned.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And 7 years later when speaking to Hawke, he's still bitter about Loghain.  

 

Think of the context in which he's speaking when it's said.  Don't confuse nostalgia and a desire to not having to be king with all its attendant concerns/worries with any chance in hell that he misses the warden him/herself.  

Do I think they can repair the friendship?  No.  That bridge has been burned.

He's looking the Warden in the eye and still feeling the nostalgia. If he hadn't cooled down on Loghain at least a little, he would probably be feeling less nostalgic while in the Warden's presence.

 

Heck, he's gone from burning, shouting rage to simmering, smartass rage in the time between the Landsmeet and the epilogue. That's not forgiveness, but it's progress.

[sylvanaerie]

He's looking the Warden in the eye and still feeling the nostalgia. If he hadn't cooled down on Loghain at least a little, he would probably be feeling less nostalgic while in the Warden's presence.

 

Heck, he's gone from burning, shouting rage to simmering, smartass rage in the time between the Landsmeet and the epilogue. That's not forgiveness, but it's progress.

 

And yet, it cannot be denied 7 years later he's still bitter about Loghain.

 

Warden's presence or not, he's going to feel nostalgic and wish he were not king, but still just Alistair the Grey Warden.  That's human nature "the grass is always greener...".  He's also in the presence of other people and has to be diplomatic, so he's guarded in what he says.  Even the flirtation is low key if you're his queen/mistress.  Would hardly do to see the king red faced and ranting in front of his army, and the fort's citizens. 

 

I'm sure if he had been alone and able to express himself you would have seen his true face on the subject.

 

But considering Awakenings seems even more rushed/slap-dashed than DA2 even, I doubt it.  In all likelihood, they just recycled the same dialogue to cover both circumstances.  Or the wrong flag is being pinged when he speaks if they did record multiple dialogues.

 

People can be seething inside while looking calm on the outside.  And in that epilogue scene, it's the Coronation chamber.  He's surrounded by nobles and has to 'put on his best face'.  

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree since we both have such different views on the same dialogue.  IMO the warden made his choice and doesn't get to 'have his cake and eat it too'.  You didn't just spare Loghain, you also married him to Loghain Jr and forced him to be king (something he hated that everyone else did, making all his choices for him without his say).  IMO It would be too much in contrast to Alistair's characterization for him to simply forgive and joke around a bare 6 months afterward such a perceived betrayal that he was willing to walk out on the order and the Blight and say to hell with them all. 

[Sifr]

I don't think Alistair's bitterness over Loghain being spared necessarily means he's ended his friendship with the Warden.

 

Sure he might have hated the decision and been furious that both the Warden (and Riordan) decided it was better to conscript their former enemy into the ranks, but I think that the hatred and bitterness is still reserved solely for Loghain, rather than spilling over onto the Warden.

 

While it was politically prudent for the Warden to agree to Alistair's demand that Loghain be exiled to Orlais, since it lessens the chance that his former supporters might rally to restore him to power, it can also been seen as an overture to appease Alistair and try to mend the fence.

 

While their friendship was damaged by sparing him, I do like to think they managed to repair it over the years... although under the proviso that the subject of Loghain never be mentioned in Alistair's presence.

 

As an aside, if Duncan had survived Ostagar, does anyone else think he would have also supported recruiting Loghain?

 

Duncan always came across to me as the kind of pragmatic man who'd have made that kind of decision, because he knew that they desperately needed more Wardens on the field to take on the Archdemon. I don't doubt he wouldn't feel the same way as Alistair does over the death of their brothers and sisters at Ostagar due to Loghain's actions, but Duncan often seemed to act like he'd learned to comparmentalise his own feelings, so he could separate emotion from duty and always put the mission first.

[TEWR]

And 7 years later when speaking to Hawke, he's still bitter about Loghain.  

 

Think of the context in which he's speaking when it's said.  Don't confuse nostalgia and a desire to not having to be king with all its attendant concerns/worries with any chance in hell that he misses the warden him/herself.  

Do I think they can repair the friendship?  No.  That bridge has been burned.

 

But remember what Alistair said when they were going to see "The Hero of Ferelden."

 

"He/She has a name you know." said in a joking and friendly manner, both to Teagan and in regards to the Warden.

 

 

 

As an aside, if Duncan had survived Ostagar, does anyone else think he would have also supported recruiting Loghain?

 

Gaider confirmed that he would actually

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As an aside, if Duncan had survived Ostagar, does anyone else think he would have also supported recruiting Loghain?

 

Duncan always came across to me as the kind of pragmatic man who'd have made that kind of decision, because he knew that they desperately needed more Wardens on the field to take on the Archdemon. I don't doubt he wouldn't feel the same way as Alistair does over the death of their brothers and sisters at Ostagar due to Loghain's actions, but Duncan often seemed to act like he'd learned to comparmentalise his own feelings, so he could separate emotion from duty and always put the mission first.

Well, even if you don't accept Word of Gaider, it does seem like the sort of thing he'd do. I mean, I've rolled two carta thugs and a rebel elf, and he took both of them. He's willing to take some amoral people.

[SgtSteel91]

He'll also all but force Cousland to be a Warden if they want to escape Howe's massacre.

[Amazonianshe]

Loghain don't do his job, he's a betrayer, he supposed to charge and support the king and Grey Wardens at the front line AT ALL COST after the beacon is lit, he don't do that

 

That what's a general should do, rather DIE defending his/her king than abandon the king to the enemy. It doesn't matter if the battle is lost, a general should be beside his king should that happen.

 

This alone show Loghain HAVE NO HONOR

 

The battle is lost  and Loghain surviving don't bring anything good to Ferelden anyway

 

Logain always saved Maric over the soldiers under his command. He has suggested before for Maric to leave his men and survive in the past. But Maric's sons do not get the same consideration.

 

If it was Maric on that field there is no doubt that Logain would have charged but it was prophesied that Logain would betray the throne. Maric was given a very clear warning about Logain from Flemeth. "Keep him close and he will betray you. Each time worst then the last."

 

That being said, it does makes sense why Logain refused to believe that there was a blight in Ferelden. If you read The Calling, Logain promised Maric that there would be no blight. Logain was trying to keep that promise so only called it a Darkspawn incursion and refused to believe that there a blight occuring. Also due to the events in this and other books there was an established long standing mistrust between Logain and the Grey Wardens, Mages and orlesians which carried over into DragonAgeOrigins even if is not explicitly announced in the game itself.

 

Spoiler

In fact Grey Warden's Duncan and Fiona had to meet with Maric when Logain was out of the capital for a few weeks in order to deliver Alister to Maric. And Maric had to order information of the meeting never reach Logain's ears. This is also why Logain never knew about Alister, Fiona and Maric's son.

 

I usually get Logain killed one way or another, but after reading the calling, I can understand Logain's viewpoint a lot better and he does not seem as evil as he used to be to me. On the downside, the Architect seems even more evil and ends up dead in all my playthroughs. 

 

There is a long standing history for Logain that is not addressed in DAO but as the Main character and Alister are young and out of the loop, never find out about. Alister is being a brat as he does not understand the history and relationship between the nations but if alister beats logain in the duel logain sees a strength in alister comparable to Maric I beleive.

 

I cannot understand Logain trying to poison Eamon the brother of the only woman Maric and Logain loved.

This is the only thing that he does that I see no reasoning behind. 

[sylvanaerie]

Logain always saved Maric over the soldiers under his command. He has suggested before for Maric to leave his men and survive in the past. But Maric's sons do not get the same consideration.

 

If it was Maric on that field there is no doubt that Logain would have charged but it was prophesied that Logain would betray the throne. Maric was given a very clear warning about Logain from Flemeth. "Keep him close and he will betray you. Each time worst then the last."

 

That being said, it does makes sense why Logain refused to believe that there was a blight in Ferelden. If you read The Calling, Logain promised Maric that there would be no blight. Logain was trying to keep that promise so only called it a Darkspawn incursion and refused to believe that there a blight occuring. Also due to the events in this and other books there was an established long standing mistrust between Logain and the Grey Wardens, Mages and orlesians which carried over into DragonAgeOrigins even if is not explicitly announced in the game itself.

 

Spoiler

In fact Grey Warden's Duncan and Fiona had to meet with Maric when Logain was out of the capital for a few weeks in order to deliver Alister to Maric. And Maric had to order information of the meeting never reach Logain's ears. This is also why Logain never knew about Alister, Fiona and Maric's son.

 

I usually get Logain killed one way or another, but after reading the calling, I can understand Logain's viewpoint a lot better and he does not seem as evil as he used to be to me. On the downside, the Architect seems even more evil and ends up dead in all my playthroughs. 

 

There is a long standing history for Logain that is not addressed in DAO but as the Main character and Alister are young and out of the loop, never find out about. Alister is being a brat as he does not understand the history and relationship between the nations but if alister beats logain in the duel logain sees a strength in alister comparable to Maric I beleive.

 

I cannot understand Logain trying to poison Eamon the brother of the only woman Maric and Logain loved.

This is the only thing that he does that I see no reasoning behind. 

 

Loghain knew about Alistair's paternity.  If you ask him in camp he will tell you as much and that Cailan knew about him as well.

[Aren]

Loghain conversations at camp are bunch of nonsense when it comes to Alistair.

Maric did not acknowledge Alistair to not ruin Rowan's reputation yet for the books at the time Rowan was dead.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Logain always saved Maric over the soldiers under his command. He has suggested before for Maric to leave his men and survive in the past. But Maric's sons do not get the same consideration.

Didn't Maric eventually make Loghain swear to stop doing that, though?

[straykat]

I think Duncan would definitely be open to Loghain in some kind of similar situation.

 

And that's kind of the view Riordan substitutes for. They're basically identical. The grim, ultra-neutral Warden type. They're not heroes or idealists or emotional. And they're nothing like Alistair. For better or worse.

[Qun00]

Would you say an Antivan crow, Qunari spy, Orlesian bard and Morrigan each are trustworthy?

Dangerous and untrustworthy aren't synonyms. Most companions don't say or do anything that makes their loyalty questionable.

Of course, they all have their breaking points, but it usually is because the Warden threatens something that is important to them, like when Shale stands against using the Anvil. Never for a petty, trivial reason.

This isn't to say there aren't a few who shouldn't be trusted. Morrigan's deception is noticeable from the beginning if you do pay attention. Then you will say "But Leliana lied too!". Sure, but nobody has the obligation of telling you about their lives.

Morrigan lied about her intentions and that's worse. And before you tell me she didn't, when the Warden asks her why Flemeth saved their lives, she claims not to know. And in the end she leaves you when the DR is declined. Alistair is wrong when he leaves because of Loghain, but you can understand his strong feelings. Morrigan leaves because she has no further use for you.

And then there is Zevran. His fighting skills aren't impressive enough to be worth the risk. It would be as simple as poisoning your food or killing everyone in their sleep. At the moment he asks to join the group you have no reason to believe otherwise.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Well, I'll share my own F!Cousland's perspective, as she doesn't always see eye to eye with Alistair, as I headcannon a lot of this:

 

1) Alistair blames death of Cailan, Duncan, GW's and army at Ostagar on Loghain. Cousland disagrees on some of the details, giving a more nuanced analysis of the situation. Alistair may or may not agree, but it's largely a moot point, for reasons below.

 

2) Alistair doesn't trust Anora. Cousland is very, very angry with her for various reasons. Then again, Cousland is also angry with a great deal of the Ferelden elite, who seem not to care a whit that the Teyrn of Highever and his family were betrayed and murdered in cold blood. So much for oaths and fealty.

 

3) Alistair does not wish to be king, initially. Cousland, however, absolutely wants to be Queen, and talks him into it. None among the eligible elite are worthy in her eyes to marry. Alistair is a bastard, but has Maric's blood, which says nothing of his amiable personality. I doubt in a more realistic setting that he would actually be King: it's much more likely that Cousland would become Queen Regnant with Alistair as Prince Consort, since she's full blooded Cousland, and of higher birth than any other noble in the Landsmeet other than her brother.

 

4) Holds Grey Wardens with high standards. Cousland has a more realistic perspective on the order.

 

These last two points are all Cousland, and they settle the matter in her mind:

 

5) Howe. Loghain and Howe. Need I say more? Hell, Loghain, Howe, Cauthrien and Anora.

 

Loghain, by the time of the Landsmeet, has made things very, very personal for Cousland. Anora, Loghain and Howe have, at one point or another, all conspired against Cousland to either kill, frame, or imprison/torture in Fort Drakon (where she would likely be raped) for their own ends. Cousland, who has been running around the country for a year, trying to save it from the Darkspawn, is incredibly incensed at Loghain for all of this, and has had enough. She's tired of being called a traitor or churl, tired of being chased by assassins, and dealing with people who simply won't get out of her way. The final straw is when Loghain accuses her of killing Howe, calling it "no justice to butcher a man in his home", which is exactly the sentiment she holds for her father, her mother, her sister in law and nephew, not to mention all of her friends and their families back in the North, who are probably piled up in a mound, unburned, unsung and unavenged, since Loghain couldn't be bothered to do his job. It's the most hypocritical, infuriating, and completely ridiculous garbage she's ever heard, and she's not about to hear any more.

 

By the end of the Landsmeet, Alistair doesn't kill Loghain. She does.

[sylvanaerie]

WarriorofLight99, I think you meant to say "Alistair doesn't want to be king" not that he wants to be.

 

Really for me, the reason Loghain dies so much is my canon was a Surana.  I felt it was dirty pool for her to duel him with magic, and it just felt 'lore breaking' that the nobility would accept that solution.  Since Alistair was the one with the problem, and it's his hiney on the line if the Landsmeet fails, it felt natural to default to him dueling Loghain at that point.

 

And the damn nobles wouldn't let me have Muffin fight him.    Hambone my ass, he was a heck of a lot more loyal than any of my companions, and probably smelled better than Oghren.

[straykat]

WarriorofLight99, I think you meant to say "Alistair doesn't want to be king" not that he wants to be.

 

Really for me, the reason Loghain dies so much is my canon was a Surana.  I felt it was dirty pool for her to duel him with magic, and it just felt 'lore breaking' that the nobility would accept that solution.  Since Alistair was the one with the problem, and it's his hiney on the line if the Landsmeet fails, it felt natural to default to him dueling Loghain at that point.

 

And the damn nobles wouldn't let me have Muffin fight him.    Hambone my ass, he was a heck of a lot more loyal than any of my companions, and probably smelled better than Oghren.

 

I know, right. Eamon is a punk... yet again. I dislike him more than Loghain. Reducing my dog to a beggar just seals the deal. What kind of Ferelden is HE supposed to be?

[WarriorOfLight999]

Thanks for that Sylvanaerie, edited.

 

Yeah, it would seem fair to let Alistair duel him, if one is a mage. In fact, I doubt the Ferelden Chantry would be very pleased to find that the Hero of Ferelden was a mage AND an elf. They might actually PREFER the idea of a Mabari as the hero.

Muffin, eh? ​Never could figure out a good name for my mabari

[Qun00]

I know, right. Eamon is a punk... yet again. I dislike him more than Loghain. Reducing my dog to a beggar just seals the deal. What kind of Ferelden is HE supposed to be?

Right? Mabari are intelligent creatures and very respected by Fereldan people. Why isn't it a suitable candidate for the duel?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Right? Mabari are intelligent creatures and very respected by Fereldan people. Why isn't it a suitable candidate for the duel?

Because Loghain might have a dog treat in his pocket. He is just the type.

[sylvanaerie]

Because Loghain might have a dog treat in his pocket. He is just the type.

LOL considering what a Scooby Doo chow hound the Dog is, that's a bit dangerous.  Puppy might go for what's in the pocket instead of dueling.  

(Has an image of Loghain running around the landsmeet floor ala Hawke vs the Arishok battle with the Benny Hill music in the background in my head now).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LOL considering what a Scooby Doo chow hound the Dog is, that's a bit dangerous.  Puppy might go for what's in the pocket instead of dueling.  

(Has an image of Loghain running around the landsmeet floor ala Hawke vs the Arishok battle with the Benny Hill music in the background in my head now).

So, Eamon's thinking of the wrong kind of danger? He's thinking of the undue danger to Ferelden where he should be thinking of the (arguably due) danger to Loghain?

[straykat]

Well, I figured there was the whole imprinting thing.

 

But you're right... he's got a weakness for treats.