505 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

You have to talk to the Tower Guard where you first enter Ostagar and ask him about the tower. He'll confirm that Loghain's men are searching it, and he mentions the lower chambers.

 

Maybe not. I stand by the idea that Cailan charging is what drew the darkspawn into a charge, and that was what Cailan would have been waiting for to send the signal for Loghain to charge. But the plan was never designed to win the battle, it was designed to throw it.

 

David Gaider is trumped by the canon. He can make up whatever fanfiction he wants after the fact, but that doesn't change what the game states. That said, it is possible that Gaider could be correct. Loghain did indeed try to persuade Cailan to stay out of the battle. But maybe he had something else planned for him instead in that case, or maybe he would have been able to use Cailan as a puppet. Still it would have been difficult to persuade him to spare Rendon Howe after what he did. Maybe Loghain thought to lie to Cailan, that the Couslands were plotting treason and Rendon Howe threatened to expose Bryce for it, which caused the Couslands to attack and Howe to defend himself. Without the human noble and a Duncan who went to Highever Castle there to tell Cailan the truth, he probably would have believed Loghain.
 

Still, I think Loghain was plotting Cailan's overthrow before Ostagar. I think it all goes back to Anora, and Loghain's suspicion that Cailan would divorce her. He had already cheated on her numerous times anyway. Killing the Couslands is when Loghain set things into motion. He needed the entire family line out of the way, even Oren, because that's the only way he would be the sole surviving teyrn, and thus the highest ranking noble in Ferelden. Indeed, if you play an origin other than the human noble his takeover is slightly easier because there is no other teyrn in that case. For example, Howe is named Teyrn of Highever by Loghain and no one contests it.

 

 

I can't say I've spoken to those guards, at least not recently it's stuck in my head, so I'll have to defer to you on that one.

 

However, Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar in regards to Highever.  He had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands.  This is Word of Gaider.  You can head canon whatever you want if it adds to the story of your Cousland to believe this, but there is nothing in game to back this theory up besides that Loghain gives the Terynir to Howe after the fact.  And I'll take the word of the head writer over player speculation anyday.  He's not just 'writing fan fiction', he is (or was) the head writer of the series.  I should think he'd have a little more knowledge of what's going on there than any of us.

 

Also, Loghain was unaware of Cailan divorcing Anora, and I believe this is confirmed in RtO if you play with Loghain in your party.  I seem to recall a shocked/surprised reaction to the letters from the former Teryn.  I am unsure as I only saw a UTube of it several years ago, never actually in game personally.  If anyone could confirm that, I'd appreciate it.  From my understanding it was meant to be in the original game and ended up being scrapped that Loghain was aware of what was going on between Cailan and Celene. 

[Illegitimus]

I can't say I've spoken to those guards, at least not recently it's stuck in my head, so I'll have to defer to you on that one.

 

However, Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar in regards to Highever.  He had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands.  This is Word of Gaider.  You can head canon whatever you want if it adds to the story of your Cousland to believe this, but there is nothing in game to back this theory up besides that Loghain gives the Terynir to Howe after the fact.  And I'll take the word of the head writer over player speculation anyday.  He's not just 'writing fan fiction', he is (or was) the head writer of the series.  

 

Uh-hunh.  What were Gaider's exact words?  Because all I've been able to find is Gaider saying:

 

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

 

Did Gaider ever specifically say that Howe wasn't authorized to kill Cousland?  

[Xetykins]

Uh-hunh.  What were Gaider's exact words?  Because all I've been able to find is Gaider saying:
 
There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.
 
Did Gaider ever specifically say that Howe wasn't authorized to kill Cousland?

That statement above did nothing to clear Loghain of the Cousland's fate at all. Don't think the writers will ever admit to that one way or another though. They want to keep things vague.

[Dai Grepher]

I can't say I've spoken to those guards, at least not recently it's stuck in my head, so I'll have to defer to you on that one.

 

However, Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar in regards to Highever.  He had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands.  This is Word of Gaider.  You can head canon whatever you want if it adds to the story of your Cousland to believe this, but there is nothing in game to back this theory up besides that Loghain gives the Terynir to Howe after the fact.  And I'll take the word of the head writer over player speculation anyday.  He's not just 'writing fan fiction', he is (or was) the head writer of the series.  I should think he'd have a little more knowledge of what's going on there than any of us.

 

Also, Loghain was unaware of Cailan divorcing Anora, and I believe this is confirmed in RtO if you play with Loghain in your party.  I seem to recall a shocked/surprised reaction to the letters from the former Teryn.  I am unsure as I only saw a UTube of it several years ago, never actually in game personally.  If anyone could confirm that, I'd appreciate it.  From my understanding it was meant to be in the original game and ended up being scrapped that Loghain was aware of what was going on between Cailan and Celene. 

 

No need. See for yourself. https://youtu.be/a38Zcw6F_Ys?t=4m56s

 

Any proof that Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar?

 

Howe would not have stuck his neck out by murdering the Couslands unless he was 100% certain he would be able to get away with it. Loghain was Howe's pardon. This isn't speculation. Same with Arl Eamon being poisoned. Loghain struck at him before the battle of Ostagar as well.

 

Gaider's word means nothing. Only the canon matters.

 

I didn't write that he was aware of it, just that he suspected it. The lack of an heir combined with Cailan's known infidelity was all Loghain would need to draw the conclusion that Anora was on her way out. Cailan's willingness to let Orlesians into Ferelden was the final nail in his coffin.

 

And yes, you are correct in regards to Loghain's knowledge of Celene and Cailan being scrapped in the final version and that he was surprised to find the letter (if brought to Ostagar). But I wrote nothing of Celene. Merely that Loghain probably suspected that Cailan would divorce Anora. The idea had been proposed to Cailan by Eamon, after all.

[Xetykins]

 
Any proof that Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar?
 
Howe would not have stuck his neck out by murdering the Couslands unless he was 100% certain he would be able to get away with it. Loghain was Howe's pardon. This isn't speculation. Same with Arl Eamon being poisoned. Loghain struck at him before the battle of Ostagar as well.
 
Gaider's word means nothing. Only the canon matters.

Yes, this has always been my argument from day 1 about this topic. Howe was a calculating son of a goat. There's absolutely no way he would murder the Couslands without the ultimate assurance that this won't bite him on the arse.

They said that there won't be any proof. Well that might be true but Howe's ultimate idea is sacking the Couslands is to sit on the tyrnir and he won't be a first choice for that for Cailan because as it was specifically said that absolutely no one else liked the Howes but the Couslands. Arl Eamon would be the first choice for getting that. So no Howe won't do all the dirty works of sacking the Tyrnir only to have someone else sit on it. And he won't do it unless he's got the ultimate assurance that he will get it.

One more glaring sign is Howe was also granted Arl of Denerim. Loghain sure knows how to feed his dogs.

[sylvanaerie]

No need. See for yourself. https://youtu.be/a38Zcw6F_Ys?t=4m56s

 

Any proof that Loghain was unaware of Howe's actions prior to Ostagar?

 

Howe would not have stuck his neck out by murdering the Couslands unless he was 100% certain he would be able to get away with it. Loghain was Howe's pardon. This isn't speculation. Same with Arl Eamon being poisoned. Loghain struck at him before the battle of Ostagar as well.

 

Gaider's word means nothing. Only the canon matters.

 

I didn't write that he was aware of it, just that he suspected it. The lack of an heir combined with Cailan's known infidelity was all Loghain would need to draw the conclusion that Anora was on her way out. Cailan's willingness to let Orlesians into Ferelden was the final nail in his coffin.

 

And yes, you are correct in regards to Loghain's knowledge of Celene and Cailan being scrapped in the final version and that he was surprised to find the letter (if brought to Ostagar). But I wrote nothing of Celene. Merely that Loghain probably suspected that Cailan would divorce Anora. The idea had been proposed to Cailan by Eamon, after all.

You have your head canon, but you insisting you're correct and Gaider's (the writer) word is wrong doesn't make it canon.  You can believe whatever you want, the situation is open enough for speculation, but I prefer to believe Gaider on the matter of the Couslands since you didn't write the game story and there's no evidence in game beyond your speculation of Loghain's involvement.  He has enough crimes to add to his list, I don't need to make more to justify killing him and prefer to think he knew nothing of Howe's plot beforehand. 

 

Howe isn't too particularly bright, or subtle, but he is overwhelmingly ambitious.  He didn't need 100% assurance, only a little wiggle room.  He figured he could come up with a good cover story, and I doubt Loghain cared enough to look deeper once Howe told him (and produced his bogus 'evidence' of their Orlesian involvement).  Recall Eleanor's comment about the Marquis--they were on speaking terms with Orlais and in Loghain's paranoid mind, that's involvement enough.  He may have suspected Howe's treachery, but it fit Loghain's plans/world view to look the other way, and he wasn't involved in the act prior to it happening.  At most, it can be argued he did nothing about it once he learned differently (if he ever does, any origin other than Cousland won't be privy to the events there and he isn't with Cailan when the king learns of Howe's actions).  Loghain's claim to regency was shaky enough without getting the second most powerful man in Ferelden at this point p*ssed off at him by denying him.

 

If it helps you accept my PoV, just think of it as my head canon since debating this further isn't going to change my mind on this topic, just as I am thinking you aren't going to change yours.  We should just 'agree to disagree' and leave it at that.

 

Arl Eamon being poisoned didn't happen before Ostagar.  It couldn't have.  The PC mage arrives in Ostagar shortly after the events in the Origin that led to Jowan's escape in the first place, it's how he was conscripted. Loghain recruited Jowan (Jowan says that he recognized Loghain from his portrait) after he was captured and brought to Denerim--all the way from Redcliffe.  How could he have been captured and brought there--or for that matter, Loghain, who was in the south fighting darkspawn couldn't be in two places at once--be in Denerim before the events of Ostagar?  Duncan doesn't mention Eamon's "illness" at Ostagar when discussing him, only that his troops could be there soon if Cailan wished.  You only learn of Eamon's illness (poisoning) once you get to Lothering.  Certainly, Loghain planned it as a contingency, so yes, it was in his head prior to the events at Ostagar, you can argue intent.  The opportunity only presented itself afterward when he got his hands on the apostate assassin he needed.

 

Admittedly, the timeline in this game is it's worst feature, and some juggling of timeline in the events has to be expected, but since Duncan just saw Eamon and he seemed fine, I'm going to say what happened to him happened when the PC, Morrigan, Alistair and Dog were trying to make it through the swamp before coming to Lothering, and after Loghain got back to Denerim.  They probably had to stumble around a bit, maneuver past darkspawn troops too large for a small group to pick off (much more prevalent after Ostagar than prior to it, I would imagine) and generally take their time being careful making their way through the swamp.  If questioned, Morrigan even mentions the difficulty they will have sneaking past them with Alistair in the group because the darkspawn can sense him, just as he can sense them.  Though, that's my head canon on why the timeline doesn't quite fit, so don't feel the need to debate that with me on that, it's not hard/fast but I don't care enough to argue it.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Also, Loghain was unaware of Cailan divorcing Anora, and I believe this is confirmed in RtO if you play with Loghain in your party. I seem to recall a shocked/surprised reaction to the letters from the former Teryn. I am unsure as I only saw a UTube of it several years ago, never actually in game personally. If anyone could confirm that, I'd appreciate it. From my understanding it was meant to be in the original game and ended up being scrapped that Loghain was aware of what was going on between Cailan and Celene.

Correct. If you take Loghain to Ostagar, he expresses surprise and outrage at Cailan's plans. He is particularly enraged by the familiar tone of Cailan's correspondence with Celene.

It's also worth remembering that originally Celene was meant to appear in Origins in some capacity, but that her appearance was cut. It seems like a lot of things got changed in a big way during development.

I would not be surprised if at one stage Loghain was going to be scheming to betray Cailan, arranging with Howe to eliminate the Couslands (because if Cailan died without an heir, the crown would likely have gone to Bryce Cousland over Anora), and ordering the poisoning of Arl Eamon to eliminate any remaining threat to Anora's claim to the throne. Obviously things changed during development and those plans got dropped, but you can still see bits and pieces of these plot threads in the game.

[thewatcheruatu]

The plan was to draw the darkspawn into charging the main lines, then signal the tower, which would then signal Loghain's forces to flank. Cailan ordering the charge was part of the plan, as that was the draw that would get the darkspawn to charge.

 

The problem is that Ishal was not secure, and Loghain knew it. He had his men investigating the tower prior to the battle. He knew about the lower chambers and that darkspawn could get in through there and overrun the position. His plan was for the beacon to never be lit, thus giving him the perfect cover story as to why he did not charge in as he should have.

 

I don't know anything about what you claim in the second paragraph, but it's funny, because when I first played Origins years ago, that was my exact read on that scene. When the signal went up, it seemed like Loghain was surprised, like he had never intended to join that battle and had been merely hanging around for sake of appearances. When they spotted the signal, he had to make excuses for his withdrawal that he wasn't prepared to make (which is he had nothing to say when Ser Cauthrien questioned his order) and thereafter went into full-on covering-his-ass mode (which is why he tries to have the Wardens declared public enemies and executed).

 

That's kind of why I always hated him, whether it was a true read or not. I think somebody else in this thread made a good point about Loghain--and I'm paraphrasing--being kind of stuck in a vicious circle. It sort of felt to me like at some point he decided--maybe it wasn't even a conscious decision--to let the king sacrifice himself, and everything since then has just been compounding on his initial kernel of immorality.

 

Ostagar was kind of like a Crossing the Rubicon moment for Loghain's descent into full-out ends-justifying-the-means megalomania (because he truly believed he was the only one who could save Ferelden). He gets away with so much until the HoF finally stands up to him like a mirror reflecting the person he could have been.

[Mike3207]

There's a good conversation between Wynne and Loghain that I remember in RTO. Loghain asks Wynne why if she could see Cailan, why couldn't she rescue him?

 

"Because I couldn't get to him in time." is the answer from Wynne.

 

"Neither could I, Madam. Neither could I." is the final response from Loghain.

[Illegitimus]

Correct. If you take Loghain to Ostagar, he expresses surprise and outrage at Cailan's plans. He is particularly enraged by the familiar tone of Cailan's correspondence with Celene.
 

 

I have taken him to Ostagar, and yes he's outraged.  I didn't detect any surprise.  

[Vanalia]

I have taken him to Ostagar, and yes he's outraged.  I didn't detect any surprise.

Well, YOU didn't detect surprise but it doesn't mean that others interpret it the way you do.

[Illegitimus]

Well, YOU didn't detect surprise but it doesn't mean that others interpret it the way you do.

 

Maybe but he doesn't actually come out and say that this isn't something he knew about.  They're just assuming he's surprised because he's outraged.  

[Darkly Tranquil]

Maybe but he doesn't actually come out and say that this isn't something he knew about.  They're just assuming he's surprised because he's outraged.

You don't think the surprise is conveyed by his tone of voice?

[Dai Grepher]

You have your head canon, but you insisting you're correct and Gaider's (the writer) word is wrong doesn't make it canon.  You can believe whatever you want, the situation is open enough for speculation, but I prefer to believe Gaider on the matter of the Couslands since you didn't write the game story and there's no evidence in game beyond your speculation of Loghain's involvement.  He has enough crimes to add to his list, I don't need to make more to justify killing him and prefer to think he knew nothing of Howe's plot beforehand. 

 

Howe isn't too particularly bright, or subtle, but he is overwhelmingly ambitious.  He didn't need 100% assurance, only a little wiggle room.  He figured he could come up with a good cover story, and I doubt Loghain cared enough to look deeper once Howe told him (and produced his bogus 'evidence' of their Orlesian involvement).  Recall Eleanor's comment about the Marquis--they were on speaking terms with Orlais and in Loghain's paranoid mind, that's involvement enough.  He may have suspected Howe's treachery, but it fit Loghain's plans/world view to look the other way, and he wasn't involved in the act prior to it happening.  At most, it can be argued he did nothing about it once he learned differently (if he ever does, any origin other than Cousland won't be privy to the events there and he isn't with Cailan when the king learns of Howe's actions).  Loghain's claim to regency was shaky enough without getting the second most powerful man in Ferelden at this point p*ssed off at him by denying him.

 

If it helps you accept my PoV, just think of it as my head canon since debating this further isn't going to change my mind on this topic, just as I am thinking you aren't going to change yours.  We should just 'agree to disagree' and leave it at that.

 

Arl Eamon being poisoned didn't happen before Ostagar.  It couldn't have.  The PC mage arrives in Ostagar shortly after the events in the Origin that led to Jowan's escape in the first place, it's how he was conscripted. Loghain recruited Jowan (Jowan says that he recognized Loghain from his portrait) after he was captured and brought to Denerim--all the way from Redcliffe.  How could he have been captured and brought there--or for that matter, Loghain, who was in the south fighting darkspawn couldn't be in two places at once--be in Denerim before the events of Ostagar?  Duncan doesn't mention Eamon's "illness" at Ostagar when discussing him, only that his troops could be there soon if Cailan wished.  You only learn of Eamon's illness (poisoning) once you get to Lothering.  Certainly, Loghain planned it as a contingency, so yes, it was in his head prior to the events at Ostagar, you can argue intent.  The opportunity only presented itself afterward when he got his hands on the apostate assassin he needed.

 

Admittedly, the timeline in this game is it's worst feature, and some juggling of timeline in the events has to be expected, but since Duncan just saw Eamon and he seemed fine, I'm going to say what happened to him happened when the PC, Morrigan, Alistair and Dog were trying to make it through the swamp before coming to Lothering, and after Loghain got back to Denerim.  They probably had to stumble around a bit, maneuver past darkspawn troops too large for a small group to pick off (much more prevalent after Ostagar than prior to it, I would imagine) and generally take their time being careful making their way through the swamp.  If questioned, Morrigan even mentions the difficulty they will have sneaking past them with Alistair in the group because the darkspawn can sense him, just as he can sense them.  Though, that's my head canon on why the timeline doesn't quite fit, so don't feel the need to debate that with me on that, it's not hard/fast but I don't care enough to argue it.

 

It's not head canon, it's fact. It being fact is what makes it correct. Gaider's opinion is trumped by fact.

 

You are refusing to see the significance of having the Couslands killed. Getting rid of that family line means Loghain is the only teyrn in Ferelden after the king's death. That would make him the highest ranking official in the country. So you're telling me that Loghain and Rendon didn't have that planned out months in advance? You're telling me Rendon decided to do this on his own with no input or assurances from Loghain?

 

Howe was ambitious, which is exactly why he would not have risked losing everything by killing the leader of one of the most powerful forces in Ferelden without solid assurance that he would be able to get away with it. Keep in mind, the leader he murdered was one Cailan was relying on to be in the battle of Ostagar with him. Even if Loghain had been fooled, Cailan would not have stood for it and neither would the other arls and banns, who all hated Rendon and loved the Couslands. That's why he needed Loghain to either kill or otherwise control the king in dealing with his actions at Highever. Rendon was far from powerful after what he did. He was a vassal of the Couslands. After killing them and NOT showing up at Ostagar as he should have, this would have earned him double traitor status. If Loghain had not known about any of his actions, he still would not have allied with him. If nothing else than to prove to the Bannorn that he could keep law and order by bringing Rendon to justice. But I doubt Loghain would see a snake who just murdered his one and only friend in the world and think to himself, "Hmm, he would make a great addition to my team".

 

I will change my mind to fit the facts. If you can post proof then I will accept it.

 

I'll have to look up what Jowan said exactly, but Isolde had sent knights out to search for brother Genitivi and the Urn of Sacred Ashes by the time the Wardens reach Lothering. Which means Eamon had been sick since before that, AND Isolde had exhausted the usual means of treating Eamon. Also, this would follow Jowan first being taken in by Isolde to tutor Connor in secret. My impression was always that the events with Jowan at the Circle happen early in the timeline, perhaps before any other Origin. I also thought Loghain intercepted Ser Irminric Eremond who had apprehended Jowan near Redcliffe or in the Hinterlands, and then recruited Jowan for the mission of poisoning Eamon. This is because he knew Isolde was secretly looking for a tutor for her mage son. So even if Eamon had not been poisoned before Ostagar, the plan to poison him was formed long before it. And that's all I need to prove Loghain's plot of betrayal and treason.

 

Duncan didn't JUST see Eamon. He saw him prior to recruiting the playable character. They made no stop at Redcliffe on their way to Ostagar (especially if an elf). I agree with what Morrigan said. That isn't head canon, that is fact. The question is how long it really took them to reach Lothering. I'll look it all up later.

[Illegitimus]

You don't think the surprise is conveyed by his tone of voice?

 

Not really, no.  He just sounds furious.  The rest is interpretation of why he'd be furious.  

 

 

It's not head canon, it's fact. It being fact is what makes it correct. Gaider's opinion is trumped by fact.

 

Assuming it really is his opinion.  I still haven't found anything beyond a general "Howe did things without Loghain's approval".  Yes, I'm sure he did.  Loghain probably didn't actually plan to have Howe loot Denerim and smuggle the gold north, torture their aristocratic prisoners for fun, or for that matter kill everyone in the castle at High Reach and their pets when the only thing that Loghain actually needed was to have the elder Cousland put out of the way.  

[sylvanaerie]

Seriously, Dai Grepher, what part of "I don't care enough about arguing your head canon to continue this debate" did you miss out of my post?  You continue to insist your opinion is fact, holding it as 'proof' your head canon is right and the actual person who wrote the game is wrong. 

 

Proof would be a letter between Howe/Loghain detailing the conspiracy, or even alluding to it.  Proof would be a snippet of dialogue, even suggestive, between them that implicates Loghain.  Proof would be an eye witness who saw them colluding even.  You don't offer up any of this, because it doesn't exist in the game.  In the US justice system the burden of proof is on the prosecutor (you), not the defendant (Loghain), you have failed to do this.  In Ferelden if you lack sufficient proof, you can't get Loghain tossed out of the Landsmeet.  And any conspiracy against the Couslands isn't part of the Landsmeet, because it never happened.

 

Your speculation into the nature of the characters isn't proof of anything, only your opinion.  

 

If this belief you cling to with the tenacity of a drowning man to a life preserver adds to your story of the Cousland, knock yourself out.  Play to your heart's content.  Do whatever.  I'm done debating it.

 

Since you seem incapable of letting sleeping dogs lie, you're now on my ignore list.

[Dai Grepher]

 

Assuming it really is his opinion.  I still haven't found anything beyond a general "Howe did things without Loghain's approval".  Yes, I'm sure he did.  Loghain probably didn't actually plan to have Howe loot Denerim and smuggle the gold north, torture their aristocratic prisoners for fun, or for that matter kill everyone in the castle at High Reach and their pets when the only thing that Loghain actually needed was to have the elder Cousland put out of the way.  

 

 

True. I don't know if he said what the others claim he said. But if he did, then he is still trumped by the canon.

 

I'm sure Howe did some things behind Loghain's back too, but I think killing the Couslands was always part of Loghain's plan. It's why Fergus' party was sent into a darkspawn "ambush", so that he would not come back. Loghain needed all the Couslands out of the way so none of them could inherit the title of Teyrn of Highever.
 

[Xetykins]

In fairness, everything in this game that's not written down is head canon though. That statement from David neither confirms or denies Loghain's involvement on the Couslands.

The fact that Loghain in the end became regeant and not even an "eek" on the fact that Howe got both Highever AND Denerim makes his involvement pretty damned likely. And this is not at all beneath Loghain, with his land grabbing and declaring himself king.

It's one thing taking WoG as fact. But when the presentation of that statement is nowhere near their portrayal in the game then it becomes void. Specially to those millions of people who does not come to bsn to read the WoG. I highly doubt there is even 500k out of the 6 million copy holder of DAO that come here.

[Illegitimus]

True. I don't know if he said what the others claim he said. But if he did, then he is still trumped by the canon.

 

I'm sure Howe did some things behind Loghain's back too, but I think killing the Couslands was always part of Loghain's plan. It's why Fergus' party was sent into a darkspawn "ambush", so that he would not come back. Loghain needed all the Couslands out of the way so none of them could inherit the title of Teyrn of Highever.
 

 

Well, that's the thing.  He didn't.  Kill the current Teyrn and his heir, and none of the other members of the family would be old or influential enough to pose a threat to Loghain's plans.  It would have worked better for Loghain, as I've mentioned before, for Fergus and the Teyrn to both suffer unfortunate encounters with darkspawn.  It just wouldn't have worked so good for Howe since this way he gets the Teyrnship.  I think Howe decides to change the plan when he realizes the Noble is at best humoring him and will never join the Howe family.  

[Mike3207]

Whether or not Loghain was responsible for the attack on the Couslands, he is responsible for taking the Teynir from the Couslands and giving it to the Howes without confirmation that all of the Couslands are dead, and without a meeting of the Landsmeet to ratify it.No doubt, it's a power grab of the worst sort and it's done solely because he wants to keep the Howe's support. Truth be told, I can understand why a Cousland would make the choice to kill him for that, even if I never pick that choice.

[Dai Grepher]

Well, that's the thing.  He didn't.  Kill the current Teyrn and his heir, and none of the other members of the family would be old or influential enough to pose a threat to Loghain's plans.  It would have worked better for Loghain, as I've mentioned before, for Fergus and the Teyrn to both suffer unfortunate encounters with darkspawn.  It just wouldn't have worked so good for Howe since this way he gets the Teyrnship.  I think Howe decides to change the plan when he realizes the Noble is at best humoring him and will never join the Howe family.  

 

Heirs. Not just one of them. Eleanor was also referred to as Teyrna. Which means she may have been able to take over the teyrnir completely if Bryce had died and she lived. The human noble would have to be killed too, and he (or she) would definitely be on the hit list since he wasn't scheduled to go to Ostagar at all. And Dairren confirms that the younger is more likely to inherit the teyrnir than Fergus is. As for Oren, he would be too young to rule Highever, but law might still grant him the title, and his mother could help him with it. But I don't know what the law in Ferelden says about that. Anora seems to make a pretty big deal about Alistair renounce all claim to the throne for himself and any possible heirs. Also King Brylan, whom Sophia Dryden opposed, was a child at the time.

 

I doubt Bryce would have been in any battles aside from the main one. And even then he would have been on equal standing as Loghain. Bryce would command his own men, who would be able to protect him from any shenanigans. Even if Bryce and Fergus had died at Ostagar, the human noble would be in Highever, ruling it, and would have inherited the title either directly or through Eleanor (unless she cared to use the position herself).

 

Ehh... I think Howe always planned to kill them at Highever. He purposely delayed his troops so that Fergus would be gone with most of the forces. He also knew that Delilah didn't like that stuck up Cousland boy (as she still calls him in Awakening).

[Dai Grepher]

Whether or not Loghain was responsible for the attack on the Couslands, he is responsible for taking the Teynir from the Couslands and giving it to the Howes without confirmation that all of the Couslands are dead, and without a meeting of the Landsmeet to ratify it.No doubt, it's a power grab of the worst sort and it's done solely because he wants to keep the Howe's support. Truth be told, I can understand why a Cousland would make the choice to kill him for that, even if I never pick that choice.

 

I think his siding with him and granting him lands says it all. They were in cahoots all along. It shows that Loghain was always to act as Rendon's pardoner after he got rid of the Couslands.

[Chaos Imperius]

So much noise so much fear.... a human noble who abandoned his king in fear of being conquered by Orlais he ignored us he let spread death and decay to his home many has died so much suffering Alistair occused him for death of Cailain and his mentor duncan those who let Loghain live are blind traitors always dies Alistair had horrible childhood he hated Eamon he was alone and hated untill he was found by Duncan who was like a father for him and now humans how would you react if somebody murders one person who really cared about you in your whole life

[Vanalia]

Chaos Imperius, could you write with correct separate sentences ? And use , . ! ? ,. : ; you know, it would help a lot, because reading your posts is very tiring without punctuation.

And please stop insulting/despising people who let Loghain live, just because you don't like him.

And Duncan was killed by the darkspawn. There is no proof that Loghain would have arrived in time or would have succeded to win the battle. Cailan sent Duncan to his death in a way. But you would never even try to understand that the blame is shared and not only Loghain's.

[Illegitimus]

Heirs. Not just one of them. Eleanor was also referred to as Teyrna. Which means she may have been able to take over the teyrnir completely if Bryce had died and she lived. The human noble would have to be killed too, and he (or she) would definitely be on the hit list since he wasn't scheduled to go to Ostagar at all. 

 

Eleanor being the Teyrna doesn't mean she's entitled to inherit.  She has no claim by blood.  She's the Teyrna because she's married to the Teyrn.  Once he's dead she becomes the dowager Teyrna and the actual title passes to one of the children.   As for the human noble, there would be no reason to suspect they would be a threat to Loghain's plans.  They would be too young and politically inexperienced.  As of the night of the massacre, the noble is only just about to be entrusted with the care of the castle for the first time and Eleanor is actually vacating just to keep from overshadowing the kid.  In fact the human noble is in theory perfect for Loghain's purpose.  Too young and unseasoned to pose a political threat any time soon, but old enough that Eleanor wouldn't be made regent until he was grown.  And had Howe managed to bring the noble into the family, he'd be able to influence the noble as father-in-law and more experienced noble, and arrange another accident later at his convenience.