505 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike3207]

Of course i can see the other side of it too and the defense Anora would give if it came to a trial-There was a civil war going on between the Bannorn and Loghain and he needed the political support Howe offered, as well as the obvious financial support that would go along with it. The Couslands were presumed dead at the time-Fergus was missing long enough that I would have assumed he was dead as well. I don't believe the Cousland Warden can inherit, although if push came to shove Cousland might have been able to count on Alistair's support when he became King. That;s what friends are for, after all.

 

I do think Anora has a case though about taking the Teyrnir from her, not just her father. She didn't commit any crimes and the Teyrnir should have gone to her after her father was disinherited. The thing that should have happened after she lost her bid for the throne would be to get the plum of Teyrna of Gwaren. That would have been sufficient for her to be considered an ally in the future. Of course, that might have been too much for those who wanted a pox on the Mac Tir name. I'm also sure Eamon would have been against anything that gave Anora that much power.

[Illegitimus]

Anora is her father's daughter.  Any inheritance from her father would be dependent on her agreeing to give up her throne and swear fealty and that's just not going to happen.  

[Dai Grepher]

Eleanor being the Teyrna doesn't mean she's entitled to inherit.  She has no claim by blood.  She's the Teyrna because she's married to the Teyrn.  Once he's dead she becomes the dowager Teyrna and the actual title passes to one of the children.   As for the human noble, there would be no reason to suspect they would be a threat to Loghain's plans.  They would be too young and politically inexperienced.  As of the night of the massacre, the noble is only just about to be entrusted with the care of the castle for the first time and Eleanor is actually vacating just to keep from overshadowing the kid.  In fact the human noble is in theory perfect for Loghain's purpose.  Too young and unseasoned to pose a political threat any time soon, but old enough that Eleanor wouldn't be made regent until he was grown.  And had Howe managed to bring the noble into the family, he'd be able to influence the noble as father-in-law and more experienced noble, and arrange another accident later at his convenience.  

 

Ehh, maybe Eleanor would not inherit. Maybe she would. It depends how Ferelden law works. In any case, the human noble could be anywhere between 18 and 32 (dismissing that wretchedly contradictory World of Thedas story about Bryce and Eleanor). So I don't think you can factor age into any plan Loghain may or may not have had regarding the human noble. Though if dueled he will say he thought the human noble was like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war. So your overall point about how Loghain viewed the human noble may stand. Still, would he take the risk of having the human noble in power equal to him (as a teyrn), especially when he saw him as another Cailan? He would have to have the human noble be inexperienced and also willing to listen to him, and that's just too much of a risk. I think it's more likely that Loghain would just want him out of the way. For all he knows the human noble is an ambitious warmonger who would try to seize the throne for himself after inheriting (or claiming) the title to Teyrn.

 

Bottom line is that the human noble is an unknown quantity. Too volatile for any of Loghain's equations. So it makes more sense to simply subtract the human noble along with every other Cousland.

[Dai Grepher]

Of course i can see the other side of it too and the defense Anora would give if it came to a trial-There was a civil war going on between the Bannorn and Loghain and he needed the political support Howe offered, as well as the obvious financial support that would go along with it. The Couslands were presumed dead at the time-Fergus was missing long enough that I would have assumed he was dead as well. I don't believe the Cousland Warden can inherit, although if push came to shove Cousland might have been able to count on Alistair's support when he became King. That;s what friends are for, after all.

 

I do think Anora has a case though about taking the Teyrnir from her, not just her father. She didn't commit any crimes and the Teyrnir should have gone to her after her father was disinherited. The thing that should have happened after she lost her bid for the throne would be to get the plum of Teyrna of Gwaren. That would have been sufficient for her to be considered an ally in the future. Of course, that might have been too much for those who wanted a pox on the Mac Tir name. I'm also sure Eamon would have been against anything that gave Anora that much power.

 

The problem is that Rendon committed mass murder and treason. Loghain should not have allied with him despite the threat of civil war. And remember by this time it was only a threat to civil war. So the alliance with Rendon could have actually been a factor in the Bannorn opposing Loghain. And we know it was not an official civil war until after Rendon joined Loghain because we see a cutscene with the two of them talking and Rendon mentions that it looks like it will be civil war after all. This is the scene where Zevran is introduced.

 

Fergus could be presumed dead, and he pretty much was. The human noble can't be though, since there were in fact quite a few Ostagar survivors elsewhere. The human noble can inherit, which is confirmed by Dairren. The codex for Highever is also unique for the human noble, and reflects that the state of the teyrnir is in question. Other origin stories state that the teyrnir is possessed by Rendon.

 

As for becoming a monarch, a teyrn can be elected by the Bannorn, which is also confirmed by Dairren as well as Loghain's attempt to claim the throne.

 

Eamon was against Anora holding claim to the throne, and Anora did not want to give up that claim either. She valued the throne more than Gwaren because she saw herself as deserving of both, but the throne more strongly than Gwaren.
 

[Illegitimus]

Ehh, maybe Eleanor would not inherit. Maybe she would. It depends how Ferelden law works. In any case, the human noble could be anywhere between 18 and 32 (dismissing that wretchedly contradictory World of Thedas story about Bryce and Eleanor). So I don't think you can factor age into any plan Loghain may or may not have had regarding the human noble. Though if dueled he will say he thought the human noble was like Cailan, a child wanting to play at war. So your overall point about how Loghain viewed the human noble may stand. Still, would he take the risk of having the human noble in power equal to him (as a teyrn), especially when he saw him as another Cailan? He would have to have the human noble be inexperienced and also willing to listen to him, and that's just too much of a risk. I think it's more likely that Loghain would just want him out of the way. For all he knows the human noble is an ambitious warmonger who would try to seize the throne for himself after inheriting (or claiming) the title to Teyrn.

 

Bottom line is that the human noble is an unknown quantity. Too volatile for any of Loghain's equations. So it makes more sense to simply subtract the human noble along with every other Cousland.

 

If the Human Noble is thirty then their origin portrays them as basically feckless layabouts too busy chasing tail and playing at being a warrior in tournaments to take on any responsibility prior to the destruction of their lives.  Never being unmarried, and never having taken on responsibility before (and still being referred to by their father as "pup" ), means there's no way Loghain would take them seriously as a threat.  A barely of age noble is more unpredictable, but still wouldn't reasonably be able to muster much support among the nobility for a bid for the throne.  The massacre is by far the riskier move.  Every massacre has surviving witnesses if only among the attacking force. Word would spread of what Howe did.  Howe of course was perfectly content to rule by terror.  He preferred it that way, in fact.  But Loghain actually wanted to unite the nation in support of his regency.

[Mike3207]

The problem is that Rendon committed mass murder and treason. Loghain should not have allied with him despite the threat of civil war. And remember by this time it was only a threat to civil war. So the alliance with Rendon could have actually been a factor in the Bannorn opposing Loghain. And we know it was not an official civil war until after Rendon joined Loghain because we see a cutscene with the two of them talking and Rendon mentions that it looks like it will be civil war after all. This is the scene where Zevran is introduced.

 

Fergus could be presumed dead, and he pretty much was. The human noble can't be though, since there were in fact quite a few Ostagar survivors elsewhere. The human noble can inherit, which is confirmed by Dairren. The codex for Highever is also unique for the human noble, and reflects that the state of the teyrnir is in question. Other origin stories state that the teyrnir is possessed by Rendon.

 

As for becoming a monarch, a teyrn can be elected by the Bannorn, which is also confirmed by Dairren as well as Loghain's attempt to claim the throne.

 

Eamon was against Anora holding claim to the throne, and Anora did not want to give up that claim either. She valued the throne more than Gwaren because she saw herself as deserving of both, but the throne more strongly than Gwaren.
 

Teagan's opposition at what might be a landsmeet meeting makes it clear that the opposition is going to fight Loghain. Loghain would make alliances based on that, and Howe is the existing power in the North. It only makes good sense at that point for Loghain to offer Howe an alliance.

 

Anora is a pragmatist over everything. She'll make the best political deal and that is becoming Teyrna of Gwaren at the time. From there, she can look to make alliance where she or maybe even one of her children can take the throne. The important thing to her is the Mac Tir family regaining its authority.

 

It's a debatable point whether a Warden Cousland could inherit. The Wardens might be against it, and their might also be laws in place preventing them from inheriting. What would work in the Couslands favor is that they can become Teyrn of Gwaren and also hold land and titles in Awakening. The merchant lady in Awakening says all that will be a test for the First Warden on whether to allow such things in the future.

 

Eamon, of course he'd be against it, and he would be the major obstacle. He grows in power in the near future and would be opposed to either Anora or the Cousland family having a lot of power. I wish it was an option in the game to kill him, sadly no such luck.

[Dai Grepher]

If the Human Noble is thirty then their origin portrays them as basically feckless layabouts too busy chasing tail and playing at being a warrior in tournaments to take on any responsibility prior to the destruction of their lives.  Never being unmarried, and never having taken on responsibility before (and still being referred to by their father as "pup" ), means there's no way Loghain would take them seriously as a threat.  A barely of age noble is more unpredictable, but still wouldn't reasonably be able to muster much support among the nobility for a bid for the throne.  The massacre is by far the riskier move.  Every massacre has surviving witnesses if only among the attacking force. Word would spread of what Howe did.  Howe of course was perfectly content to rule by terror.  He preferred it that way, in fact.  But Loghain actually wanted to unite the nation in support of his regency.

 

I kind of got that impression from the human noble origin actually, unless you have high cunning or something like that. Aldous treats you like a dunce, nan sort of babies you, Mallol clearly thinks herself wiser than you or as if she can be a guide for you. But on the flip side there are others who treat you as an authority. The guards, obviously. Ser Gilmore is the better example, because he displays some degree of familiarity with you, like you've been friends for a while, yet he still shows respect. The guards playing cards can be handled in a number of ways and they respect your authority. And even the characters who baby you will remark how mature you are if you select the proper dialogue choices. Eleanor will say something like how you grew into a find man when she wasn't looking, or something like that. Nan says something similar if I recall. Rendon is also a good source of your own background. He says your parents are content to let you find your own way. So it isn't like they treat you like a child, even if they do cherish you like one.

 

Bryce calling him (or her) "pup" is obviously there for gameplay reasons (because the game can't recognize a custom name). But even in a storyline context, "pup" could just be a nickname that stuck. My grandfather's nickname was "Babe" because he was the youngest of his siblings, and yet his own wife called him that, as did her sister, even well into his 80s.

 

But yeah, chasing tail. Competing in tournaments. That's about right. I mean, mine didn't chase tail. He was a gentleman. But depending on your dialogue, it is possible. Same with the tourney. Dairren confirms that. Rendon also claims his daughter raves about your prowess as a warrior. He was blowing smoke, sure, but there had to be at least some degree of truth to it. He later calls you a fool husk of son still trying to fit into daddy's armor, but that could have just been a taunt.

 

In all seriousness, it is possible that the human noble was as old as 34. I assume Fergus is 35, and of course you can't be within 9 months of him (it's never implied that you are twins). And it's also possible that the 30 year old human noble was doing nothing but getting educated, getting trained in the arts of war and leadership, and making political appearances such as he did at Lady Landra's party. The one where she got drunk and flirted with him. Was Bryce really much different? He made a visit to Orlais a month before that. I mean, that's just what nobility does. I don't expect him to have a job working in a bakery or on a farm. And as far as marriage goes, with nobility it's WAY different than with commoners. A commoner will often marry for love or convenience. Nobility usually marries for title, power, to join strong noble families, etc. A 30 year old human noble might have been holding out for a good wife, or a noble wife.

 

And in all fairness, Anora turns 30 in 9:30 according to Eamon's letter, and she was married off to Cailan when she was 25. So it isn't unheard of for nobles to wait longer until they marry. Even Fergus, if he is 35 (he looks 35), minus Oren's age, which is maybe 8. That's 27 when he and Orianna conceived Oren.

 

And look at how old Bryce and Eleanor are. In my mind it made more sense for the human noble to be around 30 based on how old Bryce and Eleanor looked (though in my case it just so happened to work out this way, I didn't meta game). Even Landra and her son Dairren. She looks old and he looks like he's in his late 20s. Eamon and Isolde, for crying out loud. And what of Bann Teagan? He's old. He's single.

 

And this actually makes some sense if you look at the timeline. The Orlesian occupation and the war would have an effect on when the Ferelden nobles (then rebels) would have chosen to conceive. And this is also where World of Thedas drops the ball because it doesn't take this into consideration.

 

For Loghain to dismiss him, he would have to know his personality first. I'm saying that the human noble was an unknown quantity. So it would be better for Loghain to get rid of that Cousland rather than take a chance that he or she will be a loose end.

 

Well if unity was Loghain's plan then why didn't he rally the banns to punish Rendon first? Loghain could have just called for Rendon's execution and then taken his supporters and wealth and used it to fight the blight. And without the massacre Eleanor and the human noble live on. There is no guarantee that Eleanor would support him.

 

Plus, Loghain would still have to figure out a way to kill Bryce without raising suspicion.

[Illegitimus]

 

Well if unity was Loghain's plan then why didn't he rally the banns to punish Rendon first? Loghain could have just called for Rendon's execution and then taken his supporters and wealth and used it to fight the blight. And without the massacre Eleanor and the human noble live on. There is no guarantee that Eleanor would support him.

 

Plus, Loghain would still have to figure out a way to kill Bryce without raising suspicion.

 

Probably because Howe managed to convince Loghain that he'd somehow been left no choice but to revise the plan.  Loghain's dumbest move was to decided to pick Howe as the one nobleman he could trust to never conspire with the Orlesians and his greatest character flaw was his reluctance to change his mind once it was made up.  Howe probably told him something like "The Orlesians told Cousland what we were planning, and he set an ambush for me at the castle."  As for killing Bryce without raising suspicion, given that the original plan was for Bryce's troops to go ahead while he would accompany Howe, there would have been a plethora of opportunities.  

[Dai Grepher]

Teagan's opposition at what might be a landsmeet meeting makes it clear that the opposition is going to fight Loghain. Loghain would make alliances based on that, and Howe is the existing power in the North. It only makes good sense at that point for Loghain to offer Howe an alliance.

 

Anora is a pragmatist over everything. She'll make the best political deal and that is becoming Teyrna of Gwaren at the time. From there, she can look to make alliance where she or maybe even one of her children can take the throne. The important thing to her is the Mac Tir family regaining its authority.

 

It's a debatable point whether a Warden Cousland could inherit. The Wardens might be against it, and their might also be laws in place preventing them from inheriting. What would work in the Couslands favor is that they can become Teyrn of Gwaren and also hold land and titles in Awakening. The merchant lady in Awakening says all that will be a test for the First Warden on whether to allow such things in the future.

 

Eamon, of course he'd be against it, and he would be the major obstacle. He grows in power in the near future and would be opposed to either Anora or the Cousland family having a lot of power. I wish it was an option in the game to kill him, sadly no such luck.

 

Teagan told Loghain that the Bannorn would not bow to him simply because he demanded it, and that there were questions regarding his withdrawal from the battle at Ostagar. Loghain is the one who made the threat that he would not put up with dissention. Teagan then told Anora alone that Loghain risks civil war. So I think the ball was always in Loghain's court as to whether or not a civil war would begin. People opposed him because he declared himself regent and made a power grab. Had he stepped aside and allowed the Bannorn to come to an agreement there probably wouldn't have been a civil war. But he saw himself as the only one who could lead.

 

If Loghain is suspected of abandoning Cailan at Ostagar, then allying with a traitor like Rendon is the worst possible decision. If Rendon fudged Loghain's plans by attacking the Couslands, or if Loghain had no prior dealings with Rendon, then the most logical choice for him would have been to use him as the scapegoat. He could say the battle at Ostagar went bad because Rendon murdered a great leader like Bryce, and withheld the support of Amaranthine's troops. Thus leading to their defeat and Cailan's demise.

 

Okay, but she doesn't make that deal in the game. So clearly she isn't as pragmatic as you think or as she might appear. In fact, I think she will also betray the Wardens if you tell her that her father has to die. This is even if you agree to support her. Also, I doubt Anora would be allowed to inherit Gwaren. Her father, the teyrn, committed treason. According to the law, the teyrnir would be taken from him as part of his punishment. This is exactly what happened to the Howes with Amaranthine. Also, it is 99% likely that Anora is barren. My Hero King has been married to her since Origins and still no children by Inquisition.

 

A human noble's inheritance is debatable, sure. But I think the debate can be won for the side of inheritance. The Warden's don't factor into it. The human noble can reject the Warden responsibilities if he wants to, as can Alistair. Also, Alistair is not prevented from becoming king, nor is the female human noble he romances prevented from becoming queen.

 

Eamon is opposed to it. He tries to dampen the idea of the human noble marrying Anora. He would rather see Calanhad's lineage preserved. But he also know that ultimately it isn't up to him. The Warden saved him life and his arling. He owes him everything. I don't think Eamon's so bad though.

[Dai Grepher]

Probably because Howe managed to convince Loghain that he'd somehow been left no choice but to revise the plan.  Loghain's dumbest move was to decided to pick Howe as the one nobleman he could trust to never conspire with the Orlesians and his greatest character flaw was his reluctance to change his mind once it was made up.  Howe probably told him something like "The Orlesians told Cousland what we were planning, and he set an ambush for me at the castle."  As for killing Bryce without raising suspicion, given that the original plan was for Bryce's troops to go ahead while he would accompany Howe, there would have been a plethora of opportunities.  

 

If Bryce knew about the plot, then why did he send Fergus to Ostagar? Why wasn't Fergus part of the ambush?

 

But I mean Loghain would have to get Bryce killed at Ostagar, not by Howe. That would raise suspicion.

[Mike3207]

What's the case that Howe is a traitor, and who's going to make it? I believe the cover story behind his killing Bryce was that he was selling out to Orlais, and as such deserved death from that. I imagine he had evidence of the secret negotiations Bryce was conducting with Orlais at Cailan's instigation, and brought that to Loghain as a reason to declare Bryce and his heirs traitors. It would have been enough for Loghain to make him the Teyrn after all. After all, under this scenario all the Couslands would be considered suspect-if not traitors themselves.The letters-would have been enough for the Landsmeet to put everyone involved under a cloud. Cailan might have lost his throne if he had survived.

 

I'd also be interested under what basis you think Loghain is guilty of treason. Anora named him the Regent, so it can't be his taking of power. He did refuse to relinquish power when the Landsmeet commanded him to, and as such he lost his title of Teyrn. Nothing was said about taking it from Anora or the Mac Tir however. Epilogue does have it as an option for the Warden to inherit Gwaren, so I imagine you can say ingame Anora couldn't /wouldn't accept Gwaren. Treason is a serious charge, and you have to have evidence of that. If it's his behavior at Ostagar, good luck making that charge stick!

 

Edit**in game rumors have Anora naming him the Regent. Teagan thinks he has just claimed it by himself, but he likely got late to the meeting and might have been unaware of his daughter naming him Regent. it's another debatable point, for sure. If pressed. Loghain would have had his daughter to back him up on that point, and it had to have been a very public event at which Loghain is named Regent.

[Illegitimus]

If Bryce knew about the plot, then why did he send Fergus to Ostagar? Why wasn't Fergus part of the ambush?

 

But I mean Loghain would have to get Bryce killed at Ostagar, not by Howe. That would raise suspicion.

 

There would be any number of reasons Howe could dream up for why Bryce wouldn't want Fergus there if Loghain asked.  As for the actual murder plot if Bryce dies en route it still raises less suspicion than the annihilation of the entire family by a small army.  

[Darkly Tranquil]

I'd also be interested under what basis you think Loghain is guilty of treason. Anora named him the Regent, so it can't be his taking of power. He did refuse to relinquish power when the Landsmeet commanded him to, and as such he lost his title of Teyrn. Nothing was said about taking it from Anora or the Mac Tir however. Epilogue does have it as an option for the Warden to inherit Gwaren, so I imagine you can say ingame Anora couldn't /wouldn't accept Gwaren. Treason is a serious charge, and you have to have evidence of that. If it's his behavior at Ostagar, good luck making that charge stick!.

Treason tended to be a pretty broad term in medieval societies. The mere act of failing to attempt to save Cailan at Ostagar (even if success was impossible) could well be deemed treasonous. Keep in mind that medieval trials were rarely as rigorous as modern trials, and the fact that Loghain withdrew, and that Anora stood to profit from Cailan's demise, could have well been enough to convince the Landsmeet that Loghain and Anora had plotted regicide.

Regarding Anora and the regency, it's unclear whether Anora actually had any legitimacy once Cailan died. With Cailan's death, she became dowager Queen and the Landsmeet needed to elect a new monarch, whether that be Anora in her own right, or someone else. We know, based on the fact that Cailan had to be approved by the Landsmeet (and almost wasn't) that even a patrilineal succession isn't automatic. Any change of monarch must be approved by the Landsmeet, and Anora had not been approved, ergo she most likely did not have the authority to appoint Loghain regent.

[Illegitimus]

Treason tended to be a pretty broad term in medieval societies. The mere act of failing to attempt to save Cailan at Ostagar (even if success was impossible) could well be deemed treasonous. 

 

By which of course he means, "Marching your command away from the enemy instead of toward it and deserting the field".  That's one that might get a commander in a bit of trouble even these days.  

[Dai Grepher]

What's the case that Howe is a traitor, and who's going to make it? I believe the cover story behind his killing Bryce was that he was selling out to Orlais, and as such deserved death from that. I imagine he had evidence of the secret negotiations Bryce was conducting with Orlais at Cailan's instigation, and brought that to Loghain as a reason to declare Bryce and his heirs traitors. It would have been enough for Loghain to make him the Teyrn after all. After all, under this scenario all the Couslands would be considered suspect-if not traitors themselves.The letters-would have been enough for the Landsmeet to put everyone involved under a cloud. Cailan might have lost his throne if he had survived.

 

I'd also be interested under what basis you think Loghain is guilty of treason. Anora named him the Regent, so it can't be his taking of power. He did refuse to relinquish power when the Landsmeet commanded him to, and as such he lost his title of Teyrn. Nothing was said about taking it from Anora or the Mac Tir however. Epilogue does have it as an option for the Warden to inherit Gwaren, so I imagine you can say ingame Anora couldn't /wouldn't accept Gwaren. Treason is a serious charge, and you have to have evidence of that. If it's his behavior at Ostagar, good luck making that charge stick!

 

Edit**in game rumors have Anora naming him the Regent. Teagan thinks he has just claimed it by himself, but he likely got late to the meeting and might have been unaware of his daughter naming him Regent. it's another debatable point, for sure. If pressed. Loghain would have had his daughter to back him up on that point, and it had to have been a very public event at which Loghain is named Regent.

 

For the premise of this argument, it would be Loghain making the argument, and the argument would be that Rendon murdered innocent people in Highever, including one of Ferelden's military leaders, and he withheld his Amaranthine troops from Ostagar in defiance of King Cailan's orders.
 

But they weren't secret. Bryce's trip to Orlais was public knowledge, and likely authorized by the crown anyway. Besides, Rendon would need to be able to prove this, and he would have no proof. Any proof should have been submitted to the crown immediately. Nothing gives him the right to act against his teyrn, of which he is a vassal. As Loghain said of Rendon, he should have been brought before the seneschal. There is no justice in butchering a man in his home. Even though that's exactly what Rendon did to Bryce.

 

According to Teagan, Loghain named himself Queen Anora's regent. Imric (the messenger at the Orzammar gate) demands the cooperation of the deshyers in the name of "King Loghain". But this is all beside the point. Loghain formed a plan that put Cailan in the jaws of death, and Loghain made no attempt to rescue him or ensure his safety. He also seized power that did not belong to him and committed abuses against fellow Fereldans, including but not limited to; property theft, torture, and slavery. Also murder. Obviously.

 

I wouldn't need luck. I would just need Oswyn, Bann Sighard's son. He would testify. Those at the Circle Tower could also confirm it because Loghain allied with Uldred. There was also irrefutable proof that Loghain tried to kill Eamon. With the right words, even Anora testifies against Loghain.

 

If it was a public event then why would Teagan say Loghain declared himself regent? Anora had no authority to declare a regent. Both before and during the Landsmeet, Loghain was making a grab for the throne. He puts himself forward as the one who should be king (unless Anora sides with him). He also admits that had he won he would have given control of the throne up to Anora eventually.

[Mike3207]

Teagan is hardly an impartial observer. He and his brother are political rivals to Loghain and wouldn't be above lying if it served their political purposes in doing so. They're both Guerrins and as such everything they say should be taken in that context.

 

Bryce's trip was public knowledge, but it was assumed it was for mercantile reasons. The political negotiations with Orlais were done in secret. As for the crown, cailan would have been dead and it might be assumed Loghain is acting for Queen Anora and will reveal the evidence to the landsmeet at the proper time.

 

Oswyn's information is secondhand at best and the person who originally gave the information is dead. It'd be considered circumstantial.

 

Loghain didn't say Howe murdered innocent people. He said if he did, it should be between him and his Maker, or words to that effect.

[Dai Grepher]

There would be any number of reasons Howe could dream up for why Bryce wouldn't want Fergus there if Loghain asked.  As for the actual murder plot if Bryce dies en route it still raises less suspicion than the annihilation of the entire family by a small army.  

 

Okay, but under the cover story of Bryce staging an ambush, why would he send all of his troops south? Such an ambush would require all of his troops to take Rendon down. Sure, get Fergus out of there, but in that case get everyone else out too (meaning the other Couslands, as well as Landra and Dairren).

 

I don't see how it raises less suspicion. If something happens to the teyrn while in the care of his vassal's troops, there would be questions.

[Dai Grepher]

Teagan is hardly an impartial observer. He and his brother are political rivals to Loghain and wouldn't be above lying if it served their political purposes in doing so. They're both Guerrins and as such everything they say should be taken in that context.

 

But if it wasn't a fact, then why would he say it? That would just make him look foolish in that case.

[Mike3207]

But if it wasn't a fact, then why would he say it? That would just make him look foolish in that case.

If Anora,named him Regent, then he has authority to conduct foreign policy and do other such things under her banner.

 

If he took power himself, then for all intent and purposes he's a dictator, and the Landsmeet has a right to declare civil war against him.

 

It's a matter of is he a legitimate ruler, or not. 

 

As far as is Anora a legitimate Queen, she is Dowager but she's also acting Queen until the Landsmeet picks a new ruler. It's a time of unrest and things are handled a bit differently under those circumstances than if it was a time of peace.

[Illegitimus]

Okay, but under the cover story of Bryce staging an ambush, why would he send all of his troops south? Such an ambush would require all of his troops to take Rendon down. 

 

No it wouldn't.  He ain't that tough.  Obviously in this hypothetically hypothetical scenario, Bryce makes a mistake by not realizing how close Howe's forces actually are.  

[Dai Grepher]

If Anora,named him Regent, then he has authority to conduct foreign policy and do other such things under her banner.

 

If he took power himself, then for all intent and purposes he's a dictator, and the Landsmeet has a right to declare civil war against him.

 

It's a matter of is he a legitimate ruler, or not. 

 

As far as is Anora a legitimate Queen, she is Dowager but she's also acting Queen until the Landsmeet picks a new ruler. It's a time of unrest and things are handled a bit differently under those circumstances than if it was a time of peace.

 

Yeah but I was asking if Anora did in fact make Loghain regent, then why would Teagan say that Loghain declared himself regent? Wouldn't that just make Teagan look misinformed and foolish?

 

I think there's debate if Anora had any authority at that point. Every legal action she took in the previous five years were only allowed and recognized because Cailan had delegated that authority to her. So she ruled through Cailan's name. With Cailan dead, she lost her source of authority. In this case, I believe Ferelden law states that the Bannorn, which is always the ultimate legal authority anyway even when there is a monarch, is obligated to control its respective lands and its banns are to elect a new monarch. The codex states that no one has ever sat in the throne of Ferelden without first winning the approval of the Bannorn. So I don't think Anora could declare Loghain regent. At best, Loghain could take command as a teyrn, which is a military war leader. Logically this would be legal and practical. Ideally, I think, in the event the monarch dies, the higher ranking teyrn would take over, not as a ruler, but as a teyrn directing various matters until the banns could come together at a Landsmeet and elect a new monarch. I think this was why Loghain had the Couslands put out of the way, so that he would be the sole teyrn in Ferelden. He knew that after Cailan was dead the majority of the banns would turn to the Cousland teyrn, not just because Highever is the stronger teyrnir, but also because the Couslands are of noble blood.

 

I think Loghain's position could have been considered legitimate, that being "Teyrn". The problem is that Loghain himself was not legitimate because he committed treason. Some of the banns believe his withdrawal from Ostagar was questionable, and that he is not fit to lead Ferelden. That is why the banns reject him, and I think they are in their legal right to do so. Maybe the banns under Loghain's teyrnir are not, but the circumstances might give them some leeway.
 

IS there a canon source stating that she is a temporary ruler until a new monarch is elected? Based on the codex for Highever and the Cousland family being the second most powerful, I got the impression that if the king (who is teyrn over all Ferelden) dies, then the next highest ranking teyrn would be the one leading until a new monarch is elected.

[Dai Grepher]

No it wouldn't.  He ain't that tough.  Obviously in this hypothetically hypothetical scenario, Bryce makes a mistake by not realizing how close Howe's forces actually are.  

 

But this would just seem fishy. If Bryce knows about the plot between Rendon and Loghain, then he would not send Fergus and his men to Ostagar. He would have them stand by at least, if not outright assault Rendon and his honor guard. Another thing he would do is send word to Cailan and other allies about the plot. Yet he told no one. I don't think Loghain would believe Rendon if he heard this story from him. And to me, this seems like a long way to go just to say that Loghain had no part in the Highever massacre. But I appreciate the discussion.

[Mike3207]

The thing is, most in the Landsmeet like Anora and are content to leave her on the throne. At least, if you going by the lords meeting and talking about the upcoming landsmeet. As far as I know, everything related to the crown is settled at the Landsmeet. She's been on the throne five years and most lords feel comfortable enough with her that they're not going to make any changes until the Landsmeet settles things.

 

As far as canon sources, not that i know of. You just have to read between the lines the best you can.

[Dai Grepher]

Any quotes of the banns being fine with Anora? As far as I know, the lords in the Gnawed Noble were only talking about Highever, Rendon, and Loghain. I don't remember any mention of Anora outside of Eamon speaking against her non-royal blood.

 

As for the Landsmeet, Anora was not a candidate. Loghain was making an appeal for himself. Anora needed the Warden to gain any support in the Landsmeet.

[Mike3207]

I don't remember the names, but the one who always supports Loghain and the member talking to him. They discuss the merits of both Anora remaining Queen and Eamon putting forth an unacknowledged bastard(pardon the French).

 

Anora's got three members who vote for her no matter what happens. if you lose her support, you can't win without either Vaughn's vote or the representative of the Crows. She'd like your support, but she doesn't have to have it. She can win without your support. Loghain himself tells you that there was never any doubt in his mind that Anora would remain on the throne.