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[sylvanaerie]

I don't remember the names, but the one who always supports Loghain and the member talking to him. They discuss the merits of both Anora remaining Queen and Eamon putting forth an unacknowledged bastard(pardon the French).

 

Anora's got three members who vote for her no matter what happens. if you lose her support, you can't win without either Vaughn's vote or the representative of the Crows. She'd like your support, but she doesn't have to have it. She can win without your support. Loghain himself tells you that there was never any doubt in his mind that Anora would remain on the throne.

Bann Sighard (sp) of Dragon's Peak and Coeric are the two you're thinking about, I think (the two men discussing in the Gnawed Noble).  Coeric has it in for the Theirins since there's bad blood between him and Maric and he's the mook who always sides with Loghain despite the tide of voting at the Landsmeet.  Bann Sighard's son is the one you rescue in Howe's dungeons from the rack, and can convince to vote your way if you do so.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't remember the names, but the one who always supports Loghain and the member talking to him. They discuss the merits of both Anora remaining Queen and Eamon putting forth an unacknowledged bastard(pardon the French).

 

Anora's got three members who vote for her no matter what happens. if you lose her support, you can't win without either Vaughn's vote or the representative of the Crows. She'd like your support, but she doesn't have to have it. She can win without your support. Loghain himself tells you that there was never any doubt in his mind that Anora would remain on the throne.

 

Cerolic. Also voiced by Loghain's voice actor (Simon Templeman) ironically. He may talk about Anora being elected, but this isn't how the Landsmeet goes. The story is subtle in how it presents this (only obvious if you pick certain dialogue choices), but Loghain was actually putting himself forward as a candidate, not Anora. He suspected that Anora had allied with the Warden. He couldn't trust her to be Queen while the Warden still had influence over her. His plan was to become king, settle matters in Ferelden, kill or imprison the Warden and Alistair, and then once everything was good he would turn control over to Anora and have the next Landsmeet make her queen.

 

Loghain confirms this was his plan if you speak to him in camp. It was always his end game to have Anora be queen, just not at the Landsmeet. That is unless Anora sides with Loghain in the Landsmeet. In that case he appeals to the banns to make Anora queen. This is because he sees that she is not in any way indebted to the Warden or beholden to him. But if she sides with the Warden and the Warden still loses, then Loghain will command his guards to take the Wardens outside to await execution and take Anora to her room to be confined.

[Vanalia]

Can Anora side with Loghain, or does she always side with the Warden? I don't remember.

[sylvanaerie]

Can Anora side with Loghain, or does she always side with the Warden? I don't remember.

 

If you tell her "I'll support you in the Landsmeet" without telling her that her father will die, she will side with you.  You can still lie, say you will choose her and then choose Alistair at the end, creating a situation where she does support you, but you turn the tables on her and switch your allegiance, or else never intended to support her to begin with.

 

I've had scenarios where I said "I'd support you" and then either choose Alistair or was being honest and chose her.  I've had scenarios where I told her I'd be supporting Alistair, in which case she doesn't support your bid.  I've had ones where I chose her but said Loghain had to die (in which case she supports her dad)--and I still picked her when it was over.  I've also done one where I arranged the marriage with her and Alistair and had Alistair duel Loghain--you know how that ends--and once it was done and he was about to gain the throne she said "What about our deal?", but when I brought it up she said she wasn't going to marry the man who killed her father.  Go figure, even Anora has a line she won't cross.

 

Once I knew how to win the Landsmeet without her vote, it opened up all kinds of scenarios depending on my warden and what kind of way I was rolling with my roleplay that game.

[Xetykins]

Can Anora side with Loghain, or does she always side with the Warden? I don't remember.

See, that's how power hungry Anora is. She's willing to rat her dear papa for a chance to keep power if you tell her you would support her.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't feel sorry for her being splattered by loghain's blood because after that, even when her father's body was still spouting blood, it was back to power business straight away

[sylvanaerie]

See, that's how power hungry Anora is. She's willing to rat her dear papa for a chance to keep power if you tell her you would support her.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't feel sorry for her being splattered by loghain's blood because after that, even when her father's body was still spouting blood, it was back to power business straight away

 

She wants to stop him not kill him.  You can say "I'll support you but Loghain has to die" in which case she supports her dad, thinking she has enough votes to win without the warden--and she just might depending on what the player did prior to and at the Landsmeet.  She refuses to marry the man who kills her father (either the MCousland or Alistair), necessitating having an unhardened Alistair dueling Loghain or the MCousland, depending on which one you want ruling after the Landsmeet after killing Loghain.  Hardly the actions of a power mad harpy out to 'rat on her dad'.

 

Yes, after he's dead she's all about business then, and yes, she's power hungry for that throne, but from her perspective, Alistair is an untrained boob, Eamon's puppet.  And she fears he'll drag Ferelden into the ground.  And once Loghain's dead, why protest and make a scene there as the support she had for the throne is crumbling (especially if she won the Landsmeet prior to the duel).  Better to salvage a situation fast going into the toilet than to give in to emotional displays.

 

She doesn't seek revenge on the warden afterward.  She just goes about the business of ruling (or disappearing into obscurity if she's put in the tower instead).

 

I don't like Anora, but after playing the game literally 3 dozen times over the past 6 years--yes, I have no life--and having Alistair beg me not to put him on the throne, I've learned to appreciate the writing that went into her and see her as more than just a 2 dimensional mustache twirling, power mad rival.  More often than not, I leave her on the throne--as much to p*ss off Eamon and thwart his ambitions--as to help her and Alistair find their own happiness, and Alistair and my warden end up happily GW's to our Callings without that whole king nonsense to ruin it.

[Mike3207]

I'm never good at the bloody names, even with 20+ playthroughs.

 

What happens in Inquisition with Warden Alistair. Is he still a Warden, or does Eamon compel him to take the throne?

 

Anora also doesn't kill you if you kill her father. It's only if Loghain lives that she seeks Alistair's death. She never seeks the death of the male Cousland that I recall. I imagine she sees political advantage in letting him live. There's also she might need the support of the Couslands to make her plans work-the Fereldan college and all the rest.

[sylvanaerie]

I'm never good at the bloody names, even with 20+ playthroughs.

 

What happens in Inquisition with Warden Alistair. Is he still a Warden, or does Eamon compel him to take the throne?

 

Anora also doesn't kill you if you kill her father. It's only if Loghain lives that she seeks Alistair's death. She never seeks the death of the male Cousland that I recall. I imagine she sees political advantage in letting him live. There's also she might need the support of the Couslands to make her plans work-the Fereldan college and all the rest.

 

Inquisition spoiler under tag.

Spoiler

Alistair is the warden you meet who is 'Hawke's Friend'.  Basically he or a surviving Loghain take Stroud's place.

 

Even if Loghain lives, she only argues for Alistair's death at that moment at the Landsmeet.  The player can demand she grant him the boon of sparing Alistair.  In which case, she doesn't argue and Alistair goes off to find a bottle to hide in.

[Vanalia]

I don't remember what I did during my "Cousland playthrough", I just remember that I put unhardened Alistair on the throne and my warden as a queen, and executed Loghain.

 

But this time I want to: Leave Anora on the throne, make her marry hardened Alistair, and spare Loghain.

 

But I don't like it when I see Anora telling the crowd "My father is not the Hero you once knew", etc... it sounds so mean coming from her, I know it's just politics and that she has to say this to convince everyone that she was not involved in her father's decisions, but I know that what he did, he did it for Ferelden, and for her, and always loved his daughter, even if he was paranoiac and made mistakes.

 

I don't want to see her soil his name like this (he soiled it himself, thank you very much, no need for his daughter to add more).

 

So is there a way to see her support her father? can I tell her before the Landsmeet that I will side with her AND spare Loghain? would it help?

[sylvanaerie]

I don't remember what I did during my "Cousland playthrough", I just remember that I put unhardened Alistair on the throne and my warden as a queen, and executed Loghain.

 

But this time I want to: Leave Anora on the throne, make her marry hardened Alistair, and spare Loghain.

 

But I don't like it when I see Anora telling the crowd "My father is not the Hero you once knew", etc... it sounds so mean coming from her, I know it's just politics and that she has to say this to convince everyone that she was not involved in her father's decisions, but I know that what he did, he did it for Ferelden, and for her, and always loved his daughter, even if he was paranoiac and made mistakes.

 

I don't want to see her soil his name like this (he soiled it himself, thank you very much, no need for his daughter to add more).

 

So is there a way to see her support her father? can I tell her before the Landsmeet that I will side with her AND spare Loghain? would it help?

No.  

 

Her telling the Landsmeet her father was right and the warden was wrong only would hurt your case.  That's precisely the dialogue you get if you don't have her support, that you basically are a menace to society and her dad is the only one able to save Ferelden. That's what you're asking for her to do.  By supporting you, she isn't "soiling his name".  She's telling the truth.  He isn't the man they once knew. If it weren't for the warden, Ferelden would be in deep poo, and her father is the reason for it.  The Landsmeet isn't formed to pat Loghain on the back for doing a good job, it's to remove him from the regency.  Something you won't achieve by telling everyone what a great guy he is.

Sugar coating it for the sake of her father's reputation isn't going to help your cause.  The nobles need to be convinced Loghain has completely fubar'ed up the situation all on his lonesome.

 

So, no it is not possible for you to get Anora to say nice things about her dad at the Landsmeet while supporting your cause.  Even not having her support doesn't get her to say nice things about him, only bad things about you.

 

Minor Origin spoiler under tag about Anora and her dad and the aftermath of Origins.

 

Spoiler

If Loghain dies at the Landsmeet and Anora rules, she builds a monument to her father, largely ignored by the populace though she goes and places flowers on it each year afterward.  If Loghain dies killing the archdemon, the monument is still built and becomes a place of pilgrimage thereafter, with the population basically forgetting all the bad he did while remembering he died to stop the Blight.  I am unsure what happens if he lives at the end of Origins.

 

*Edit* I think you have to arrange the wedding prior to the Landsmeet, in which case, you will get the "Anora supports you" dialogue.  You can win the Landsmeet by doing every single quest that enables you to get votes and say all the right things at the Landsmeet to win over the nobles without her support.  But then, I don't know if the wedding scenario is viable at that point even with hardened Alistair (though it might be).  Even then, she just slings mud at your reputation, not talks nice about her dad.  It's all about the mudslinging, you see...  And Loghain just has this smug look on his face when she supports keeping his regency which I really enjoyed tearing off when my warden kicked his butt.

[Vanalia]

I just think that even if he made mistakes and bad choices (he didn't WANT that poor result, he realizes afterwards that he made wrong decisions), people from Ferelden are really quick to forget that he is the reason they were born free, and not slaves of Orlais, under the reign of the tyrannic king Meghren.

 

I'm glad that his honor is redeemed if he kills the Archdemon, he deserves it, at least for his past good actions and his last one. One or two bad decisions shouldn't erase all the good things he has done in the past, but people tend to "overwrite" history with the newest thing.

 

Hmmm at the Landsmeet I just would like Anora to show her support for me but without pushing the others to kill her father. I know she doesn't want him killed, but her words against him only comfort the other nobles that his death would be the best thing. I wanted a compromise, but it seems that my warden will just have to surprise everyone by her last decision.

[sylvanaerie]

I just think that even if he made mistakes and bad choices (he didn't WANT that poor result, he realizes afterwards that he made wrong decisions), people from Ferelden are really quick to forget that he is the reason they were born free, and not slaves of Orlais, under the reign of the tyrannic king Meghren.

 

I'm glad that his honor is redeemed if he kills the Archdemon, he deserves it, at least for his past good actions and his last one. One or two bad decisions shouldn't erase all the good things he has done in the past, but people tend to "overwrite" history with the newest thing.

 

Hmmm at the Landsmeet I just would like Anora to show her support for me but without pushing the others to kill her father. I know she doesn't want him killed, but her words against him only comfort the other nobles that his death would be the best thing. I wanted a compromise, but it seems that my warden will just have to surprise everyone by her last decision.

 

She's really not pushing for his death.  She doesn't have tarot cards to tell her he'll die as a result, though she is aware of that possibility.  It's why, if you tell her you're gung ho on his demise she won't support you.  She just wants to stop him, to save Ferelden from the Blight and continue ruling.

 

A pity the game doesn't have a button that says "Will support Anora, but let her not toss her dad under a bus with her dialogue" button but resources being what they are, you get two programmed dialogues depending on your choices.  The AI isn't that independent.

[Vanalia]

It's just that I don't remember (and didn't try) all the options at the Landsmeet, so I'm just asking 

[Monica21]

The biggest problem with trying to link Loghain to the Cousland massacre is that there is zero in-game evidence for it. Absolutely none, and I'll happily challenge anyone to produce said evidence. Hell, I'll even take comic books, since those are canon too.

And while the effort being put into such convulutions is admirable, all you're doing is creating plot holes where there are none and filling them with head canon. Congratulations! You've made the ultimate jelly donut. Why did Howe murder the Couslands? Because he had the means and opportunity, but mostly because he's a power-hungry son of a ******. This is a man whose last words were, "I deserved more." But the thing is Howe murdered the Couslands. Finding the notes from his soldiers in Awakening support that he was acting alone. No one else was involved. Not Loghain, not the other creepy bann, just Howe. The coincidence is interesting, but all it is is coincidence. It is not fact and it never will be.

[Mike3207]

The biggest problem with trying to link Loghain to the Cousland massacre is that there is zero in-game evidence for it. Absolutely none, and I'll happily challenge anyone to produce said evidence. Hell, I'll even take comic books, since those are canon too.

 

I'm pretty sure Gaider said the comic books weren't canon, so you couldn't actually use them as a source.

[Monica21]

I'm pretty sure Gaider said the comic books weren't canon, so you couldn't actually use them as a source.

Source? Because this is the reason for The Lyrium Problem retcon.

[Vanalia]

Is there anything about Loghain in the comic books? about Maric, yes I've heard of it, but I'm not sure there is any more information about Loghain.

[sylvanaerie]

Is there anything about Loghain in the comic books? about Maric, yes I've heard of it, but I'm not sure there is any more information about Loghain.

 

I think Loghain is dead (killed at the landsmeet), Alistair is king?  I seem to recall reading somewhere on the boards that Gaider said it wasn't canon, it was just one interpretation of how the events could have resolved themselves.  Sort of a 'Gaider-canon'.

 

The books themselves, I think, are considered canon, but the comics just have some established continuity to framework the narrative they wanted to tell.  It could be it uses the 'default' similar to the one that boots up when you first enter Keep to start tinkering with world states.  I believe the warden was a Dalish elf who died slaying the archdemon and Alistair and Anora rule Ferelden?  

 

Admittedly, I've never read the comics, this is only what I've read here on the boards.

[Mike3207]

Source? Because this is the reason for The Lyrium Problem retcon.

I believe he was asked on the forums about whether the comics were canon at one point and he answered no but that the comics were based on his personal headcanon.

 

I don't have a direct link however.

[Monica21]

I think Loghain is dead (killed at the landsmeet), Alistair is king?  I seem to recall reading somewhere on the boards that Gaider said it wasn't canon, it was just one interpretation of how the events could have resolved themselves.  Sort of a 'Gaider-canon'.
 
The books themselves, I think, are considered canon, but the comics just have some established continuity to framework the narrative they wanted to tell.  It could be it uses the 'default' similar to the one that boots up when you first enter Keep to start tinkering with world states.  I believe the warden was a Dalish elf who died slaying the archdemon and Alistair and Anora rule Ferelden?  
 
Admittedly, I've never read the comics, this is only what I've read here on the boards.

Same here, with regard to reading about them on the forums. But isn't the Yavana storyline in the comics? Not sure I have all this right, but Alistair is a Warden and taking lyrium so that he can have his Templar abilities. Yavana is Flemeth's other daughter and there's something about Maric being captured instead of drowned. I probably have a lot of that messed up, but it essentially makes what Alistair tells you in Origins about not needing lyrium not true. I thought that it was canon.

[sylvanaerie]

Same here, with regard to reading about them on the forums. But isn't the Yavana storyline in the comics? Not sure I have all this right, but Alistair is a Warden and taking lyrium so that he can have his Templar abilities. Yavana is Flemeth's other daughter and there's something about Maric being captured instead of drowned. I probably have a lot of that messed up, but it essentially makes what Alistair tells you in Origins about not needing lyrium not true. I thought that it was canon.

 

I think what he referred to as his 'head canon' was the framework of the world state--what happened during the Blight/events of Origins.  The other stuff, Yavana, Lyrium being required to work templar abilities (contrary to what Alistair said in Origins), Maric captured instead of drowned, the lore stuff could be 'canon'.

 

But, tbh, I am unsure what he meant to be part of Thedas lore, and canon, and what was just part of the story he wanted to tell.  I haven't found any codices in Inquisition to contradict what I've seen in Origins' storyline.  Admittedly, I am currently in the midst of my first 'completionist' run and haven't finished and found all there is to be found.  All I can say is I haven't found anything so far.  

 

What does the wiki have to say on the subject?

[Monica21]

What does the wiki have to say on the subject?

Nothing very helpful, unfortunately. There are, indeed, many, many articles about Alistair. The only thing I've seen is that yes the comics exist and this is the storyline for that particular series. And I was mistaken about a particular point; he is the King in the series but travels with Isabela and Varric to Antiva City.

Some of the confusion may stem from the Cullen thread in the Inquisition forums, which is where I first heard about the lyrium problem. I hadn't read the comics and the approach taken by the members there is that this is canon, but perhaps it isn't if it isn't in the in-game codices.

[Ghost Gal]

I just think that even if he made mistakes and bad choices (he didn't WANT that poor result, he realizes afterwards that he made wrong decisions), people from Ferelden are really quick to forget that he is the reason they were born free, and not slaves of Orlais, under the reign of the tyrannic king Meghren.

 

Unless you're an elf, in which case he'll sell you to Tevinter without a shred of remorse.

 

But seriously, I don't think anyone forgets what he did 30 years ago... but that was 30 years ago. In Inquisition, if the Inquisitor gushes to the Warden Alistair for stopping the Fifth Blight, he says something like, "Yes, I stopped the Blight... but that was 10 years ago. New times, new battles." And I think it's the same way with Loghain. What he did in the past was great, it kind of springs to mind a saying, "Yeah, but what have you done recently?"

 

In the case of Fereldens, "Yay! 30 years ago you ensured that I was born free... but this year you ensured that I got eaten by darkspawn / sold my people into slavery [if an elf]. F*ck you, bro."

 

Past heroics doesn't cancel out present travesties, and Loghain commits plenty of travesties for people to hold him accountable for.

[Vanalia]

 

 

Past heroics doesn't cancel out present travesties, and Loghain commits plenty of travesties for people to hold him accountable for.

Well, according to everything to hear when you play DA:O, Loghain did not just do "one" heroic thing 30 years ago and then stopped. He's well-known for having won a lot of battles since (including battles against darkspawn before Ostagar), reconstructing the country, etc. He didn't retire in a cave for 30 years just after the battle of river Dane, you know. He worked all his life for his country.

 

And about the elves? do you think HE put the elves in the alienage, HE is responsible for them still being servants, mistreated, living like miserables beings in the mud? Cailan and Maric did not do better, it seems, to treat the elves equally with humans. Loghain is not responsible for Denerim. NO ONE did ANYTHING for the elves, despite the fact that Maric was saying to Katriel that he wanted to make the life of elves better. The elves 30 years after are still considered like lower beings by everyone, in Denerim, in Kirkwall, everywhere.

 

So please, stop putting all the blame on Loghain, like if he was the only one responsible.

 

It's funny how so many people worship Anders or *Trespasser spoiler*

Spoiler

Solas

while they want to do or did massive slaughters, or want the world annilihated without any regret, but Loghain, who just sold "some elves" (ok that's not nice, but he didn't kill them or didn't want to destroy the world) and did what he thought was right to save Ferelden, nooo, most hated character ever. But crazy psychopaths like the two I said? yeaah they're awesome, let's forget about their crimes or what they intend to do!! because they look cool and everything. Such hypocrisy.

 

Annilihating the world = good, cool, he's awesome hihi

Selling some elves in comparison = worst crime ever, let's put his head on a pike

 

(I don't say that against anyone in particular here, it's just a behavior is see a lot among players)

[sylvanaerie]

Meh.  I'm no fan of DA2 Anders.  Solas I have issues with, but at least he's conflicted.  

Spoiler

He recognizes he's a monster and begs you to stop him.  Now, grant you, Solas does plan on wiping out everything,

but Anders didn't.  He just wanted to stop the abuse of mages, and Loghain's actions after Ostagar, not dealing with the Blight when he was in charge, fighting with his fellow countrymen, kidnapping and torturing anyone who opposed him, harassing and trying to kill the only two people in Ferelden who actually were dealing with the problem led to just as big (if not a greater) death toll both directly and indirectly by his actions, than the people killed by Anders' action.  And Solas has yet to carry through with his plan, so I'm not going to hang him out to dry for something he might do in the future.  They all have enough blood on their hands from what they actually did, I don't need to smear more for things I imagined they could have done or that they may do in the future, Loghain included.

 

And how does what either of these two do or may plan to do in the future have anything to do with Loghain?  Holding up their crimes doesn't excuse Loghain of his.  They have their defenders just as Loghain has his, but they also have those who dislike them too.  They aren't universally loved--though it may seem that way because their fans are pretty vocal.  And frankly, I think all three characters are a few bricks shy of an outhouse anyway.

 

Loghain did a lot more than just 'sell a few elves', his crimes are numerous.  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, that's just the crime (out of many) that pushes me past forgiveness.  Since my canon, and the warden I identify the closest to is an elf, it kind of hits home for me.

 

Loghain's actions 30 years ago don't excuse what he's done since Ostagar.  I don't fully blame him for the events there, I feel there was plenty of blame to go around between everyone calling the shots, but he shares the blame, certainly.  He was the general in charge, he should have gotten more intelligence on the enemy, or allowed the Orlesian wardens--not the chevaliers--to help with the fight.  He was too hung up in the past to see he was endangering the future he fought so hard for 30 years ago.